Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[meadish_sweetball]

More posts removed, this time to prevent the topic from getting into a similar debate as is being held in another thread in the General forum, concerning how dangerous Thailand is, and whether it has got more dangerous over time or not.

Those of you wanting to debate that, are welcome to do so in that thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...162162&st=0

As for this thread, here is my plea:

Please try to reply selectively and on topic, so the thread becomes more accessible and focused on the main piece of news. There are so many people posting at the moment, that off topic discussions quickly clutter up the thread.

I know it is difficult to stop yourself from replying to off-topic statements you strongly disagree with, but please try to give it a shot, ok?

[stevemiddie]

Apologies if this has been posted already, it includes details from the injured victim :

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/01/07/thai-cdn.html

Reisig, who denied being pregnant, said she arrived in Thailand several days ago to visit Del Pinto, who she said was her ex-boyfriend and good friend.

For Chloe82

[stepenwolf1958]

Uh-huh...in compare with inital news,based on rumors-nothing is more clear now...The song remains the same,police authority.man,said such a stupid thing about accidentaly shooting...what a cover!!!!

[mikethevigoman]

its sad - if they keep this up they will destory pai.

I disagree, when i used to come over with my friend (mixed Thai French) and stay with her family in Thailand during summer holidays from school we visited Pai and Mae Hong Son often, it was at that time a magical place with friendly and welcoming locals and the foreigners who did travel there had done so because of there interest in the local geography, culture etc. This has all changed through the type of foreigners who are now visiting and often 'staying on in' Pai.

It is the foreign visitors who are destroying Pai, not the local people or police force.

I went to Pai last year for the first time in 8 years, the place has changed dramaticaly, for the worse, and it is down to the influx of these foreigners who go there to take drugs, ignore local customs and generaly make asses of themselves.

Chloe.

Im afraid i have to agree with you, they ( the thais ) have seen a lot of idiots come and go and now have a ( wrongful ) attitude that we are all the same,.in 18 years of travelling and riding bikes all over thailand i have never ever seen hostility towards a foreigner, unless he deserved it, i dont find it hard to mix and adapt ,and i dont want thailand to end up like the country i left, that would defeat the object,. it is a minority but i have to say its coming a regular occurance to see foreigners being a pain in the @ss,.i dont walk about drunk and visit these types of places,or spit the dummy when i cant have my way ,.i have a built in trouble siren that works well ,some people just cant avoid trouble and ill say it again its usually the demon drink(er ) that causes the problem,.it matters not to them where they are but the results here are much different,.i am not saying that is what happened here ( topic ) but answering and commenting on previous remarks,.

[Pawpcorn]

I'm still stuck on this quote.... How can this be...??? Sane??? :

"Tilney said the police officer has been charged with manslaughter but is not being held in custody. The town's police chief said suspects who admit guilt are allowed to be released before their trials."

If we follow the logic here... then suspects who claim they are innocent will be kept imprisoned, only the guilty ones will be set free.

AND... does this mean that the police officer has admitted that he is guilty of premeditated murder???

Seems like an analogy to the time when suspected witches were dunked and held under water. If they drowned, they were declared innocent. If they survived, they were declared guilty.

I'm starting to feel dizzy and disoriented...

[nikster]

its sad - if they keep this up they will destory pai.

It is the foreign visitors who are destroying Pai, not the local people or police force.

I went to Pai last year for the first time in 8 years, the place has changed dramaticaly, for the worse, and it is down to the influx of these foreigners who go there to take drugs, ignore local customs and generaly make asses of themselves.

Chloe.

Sorry but this isn't so. Some facts: Farang tourism in Pai is growing steadily but slowly. What has exploded is Thai tourism as evident by the teeming masses of Bangkok- and other Thai tourists coming every winter. They are of course welcome visitors, and it's good for business which is booming. Pai is changing because it's currently very high up on the "must visit" list for Thais. And BTW I am not saying this is a bad thing. Change is natural, and nothing stays the same.

As for local customs - I am all for educating visitors in this regard. But murder is murder, it can't be explained away or made understandable. 3 bullets and 2 people shot is not self defense, no way.

[chrislarsson]

Probably more than half of the posts here are offensive to Thailand.

Off duty Policemen who engage in drunken arguments then gun down unarmed people are offensive to Thailand.

Sticks and stones.

The offensive part is that you are making this assumption without any facts being known.

Of course you can be right, but you don't know that. This is called being biased, and in this case the bias, at least to me, seems to based on race, nationality or both.

[mikethevigoman]

Lots of farang women go to Thailand for sex. Less than the men there but without knowing more and seems like this is a case of judging first and then hear the case later, I'd say that most farangs deserve the crap that they get in Thailand.

Most farangs behave worse than animals in Thailand.

A few of them getting shot and killed isn't such a bad thing if it helps to control the larger farang population.

There speaks the voice of reason and experience.

How refreshing to have such an incisive, original contribution to the debate.

what a great statement from the jury foreman !

[mikethevigoman]

The old hands and folks in Asia who've seen police hassled and threatened will tell you that the police here in Thailand will draw their weapon (s) if they feel threatened. This isn't Dixon of Dock Green out here.

What's one of the main 'rules' for any expat in Thailand? Keep your cool! Don't cause a big drunken scene and draw attention to yourself, especially if you are farang!

Maybe this cop is a bad guy maybe not, it could well be that they inadvertently lit the fuse that started the whole shooting.

If you want it like home, GO HOME!

here here,. ( evenin all )

[sonnyJ]

Apologies if this has been posted already, it includes details from the injured victim :

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/01/07/thai-cdn.html

Reisig, who denied being pregnant, said she arrived in Thailand several days ago to visit Del Pinto, who she said was her ex-boyfriend and good friend.

For Chloe82

Just back from a visa run?

[nikster]

its sad - if they keep this up they will destory pai.

I disagree, when i used to come over with my friend (mixed Thai French) and stay with her family in Thailand during summer holidays from school we visited Pai and Mae Hong Son often, it was at that time a magical place with friendly and welcoming locals and the foreigners who did travel there had done so because of there interest in the local geography, culture etc. This has all changed through the type of foreigners who are now visiting and often 'staying on in' Pai.

It is the foreign visitors who are destroying Pai, not the local people or police force.

I went to Pai last year for the first time in 8 years, the place has changed dramaticaly, for the worse, and it is down to the influx of these foreigners who go there to take drugs, ignore local customs and generaly make asses of themselves.

Chloe.

Im afraid i have to agree with you, they ( the thais ) have seen a lot of idiots come and go and now have a ( wrongful ) attitude that we are all the same,.in 18 years of travelling and riding bikes all over thailand i have never ever seen hostility towards a foreigner, unless he deserved it, i dont find it hard to mix and adapt ,and i dont want thailand to end up like the country i left, that would defeat the object,. it is a minority but i have to say its coming a regular occurance to see foreigners being a pain in the @ss,.i dont walk about drunk and visit these types of places,or spit the dummy when i cant have my way ,.i have a built in trouble siren that works well ,some people just cant avoid trouble and ill say it again its usually the demon drink(er ) that causes the problem,.it matters not to them where they are but the results here are much different,.i am not saying that is what happened here ( topic ) but answering and commenting on previous remarks,.

It doesn't excuse murder. I may be pretty black and white on this topic but killing that is not self defense is murder, and murderers pose a threat to society. There is no possible excuse on the grounds of ethnic background, culture, religion, or anything else. The problem is not Alcohol or misbehaving foreigners, it's the man who pulled the trigger.

[mikethevigoman]

We'd all be best to remember the best advice every given on TV (by GaryA).

"Keep a low profile". It's a shame the Canadians didn't heed this advice.

RIP

That really is the best advice,. for lots of reasons,.

[mikethevigoman]

I'm still stuck on this quote.... How can this be...??? Sane??? :

"Tilney said the police officer has been charged with manslaughter but is not being held in custody. The town's police chief said suspects who admit guilt are allowed to be released before their trials."

If we follow the logic here... then suspects who claim they are innocent will be kept imprisoned, only the guilty ones will be set free.

AND... does this mean that the police officer has admitted that he is guilty of premeditated murder???

Seems like an analogy to the time when suspected witches were dunked and held under water. If they drowned, they were declared innocent. If they survived, they were declared guilty.

I'm starting to feel dizzy and disoriented...

I think it got lost in the translation, it cant be true, ,,,,, can it !

[tattoodrob]

im sure he will sudenly dissappear if it hits the international headlines as he may have to do serious time then well until it all dies down then can let him out to carry on as usual....wont even get demoted.

as we dont know the facts and probably never will then its hard to comment properly but saying that it does look a bit extreme that he shot both of them.if he(the cop) was being overpowered then usually any thais in the vicinity would help him......i think this will be an over reaction by a possibly drunk policeman or something irregular like that as why did he initially run away.....thais normally only do this when completely in wrong and witness s there too.be good to here the ladies story and truth will be somewhere in between !!!!!

[nikster]

Probably more than half of the posts here are offensive to Thailand.

Off duty Policemen who engage in drunken arguments then gun down unarmed people are offensive to Thailand.

Sticks and stones.

The offensive part is that you are making this assumption without any facts being known.

Of course you can be right, but you don't know that. This is called being biased, and in this case the bias, at least to me, seems to based on race, nationality or both.

I don't know, there are pretty good indications as to what happened.

- Official story clearly rubbish because completely unconvincing.

- Eyewitness accounts very clear on guilt of officer

- Two people hit by three bullets - not self defense

- Officer fleeing the scene initially

- Victim says shooting was unprovoked (see link w/ interview fragment)

We don't know the whole story, but by all likelihood, and if you have ever seen the behavior of off duty police officers in bars, I am willing to bet good money on the guilt of the officer here.

Bias would be to ignore all the information known so far and pretend that all things are equal when they clearly are not.

[Theyreallrubbish]

Probably more than half of the posts here are offensive to Thailand.

Off duty Policemen who engage in drunken arguments then gun down unarmed people are offensive to Thailand.

Sticks and stones.

The offensive part is that you are making this assumption without any facts being known.

Of course you can be right, but you don't know that. This is called being biased, and in this case the bias, at least to me, seems to based on race, nationality or both.

I don't know, there are pretty good indications as to what happened.

- Official story clearly rubbish because completely unconvincing.

- Eyewitness accounts very clear on guilt of officer

- Two people hit by three bullets - not self defense

- Officer fleeing the scene initially

- Victim says shooting was unprovoked (see link w/ interview fragment)

We don't know the whole story, but by all likelihood, and if you have ever seen the behavior of off duty police officers in bars, I am willing to bet good money on the guilt of the officer here.

Bias would be to ignore all the information known so far and pretend that all things are equal when they clearly are not.

There are two facts we know indisputably: A young canadian man is dead and a young woman in hospital and that the Thai policeman pulled the trigger that put the bullets into their bodies. Nobody disputes that

The Thai policeman claims self-defence yet has no witnesses, whereas there are witnesses to the contrary.

So the only question is whether the young Canadian man and woman acted in a way that made the Thai policeman believe his only chance to save his life was to fire the gun.

If someone can provide any evidence to that then I'd be willing to look at both sides.

So far the only "evidence" is claims that he was drunk and that he didn't understand Thai customs.

All the apologists should really listen to themselves. You sound like the Thais who say a farang is automatically at fault in a traffic accident as if the farang hadn't come to Thailand he wouldn't have been on the road for the accident to happen so its the farangs fault.

Can I remind everyone a young man is DEAD and was killed by the bullets that came out of the gun fired by the Thai policeman. That is the whole story and until something else comes up don't tell keep telling us about how he should have had your superior knowledge of Thai customs so he deserved to die

[mikethevigoman]

Probably more than half of the posts here are offensive to Thailand.

Off duty Policemen who engage in drunken arguments then gun down unarmed people are offensive to Thailand.

Sticks and stones.

The offensive part is that you are making this assumption without any facts being known.

Of course you can be right, but you don't know that. This is called being biased, and in this case the bias, at least to me, seems to based on race, nationality or both.

I don't know, there are pretty good indications as to what happened.

- Official story clearly rubbish because completely unconvincing.

- Eyewitness accounts very clear on guilt of officer

- Two people hit by three bullets - not self defense

- Officer fleeing the scene initially

- Victim says shooting was unprovoked (see link w/ interview fragment)

We don't know the whole story, but by all likelihood, and if you have ever seen the behavior of off duty police officers in bars, I am willing to bet good money on the guilt of the officer here.

Bias would be to ignore all the information known so far and pretend that all things are equal when they clearly are not.

lets all for a minute imagine the scenario, drunk ,gun,anger,fear ? violence ,..

[JonnyF]

Very sad event and my condolences to the family of the deceased.

We may never know the facts, but it "sounds" like the small man with the big ego got pushed onto his arse in front of his friends and over-reacted in an attempt to save face.

The tragic thing is that it probably worked. In not too long, he'll be back in the bar getting respect/face from the idiots that he was trying to impress.

Let's not try to justify this killing on the basis that the Canadian was possibly drunk and behaving badly. If he was, then he deserved a bit of a beating at the most, but to kill a guy for this is obscene and anyone who tries to justify it needs to take a good look at themselves.

[kat]

Thai police are obliged to interfere if there is trouble brewing, even if they are off duty.

I have never ever seen a Thai policeman intercede in a Tha/Thai domestic dispute. I've seen them watch though.

Thai police are obliged to interfere if there is trouble brewing, even if they are off duty.

I have never ever seen a Thai policeman intercede in a Tha/Thai domestic dispute. I've seen them watch though.

A very valid point - from beginning I found it very hard to beleive that a Thai would get involved with any kind of incident such as this - ive seen for myself people walk right past withough even a pause when domestics are taking place. Surely there must be some other reason for the cop to have got involved

Thing I don't understand. The bullet entered the mouth and then went through and exited the shoulder. Now imagine the position you would have to be in to place a shot like that. It would suggest that person firing the shot was very much in control and firing from a higher vantage point. ie. Standing while the person being shot was lower down, maybe on their knees. Very execution style if you ask me.

Isn't it interesting how a pregnant woman's husband is now suddenly dead, with an interference from a domestic squabble, that is usually considered a non-issue by the culture? And, what timing: the guy just finds out his ex-wife/wife is pregnant by a Thai man, is understandably upset, and there is an OFF-DUTY, drunk cop right there, ready to shoot him "accidentally" - cough, cough - through the mouth and chest, and her through the chest.

How very convenient for someone, except that she lived. It will be interesting to hear about the forensic reports - but wait a minute - they work for the cops, too, don't they, unless we are talking about Pornthip.

[tattoodrob]

Very sad event and my condolences to the family of the deceased.

We may never know the facts, but it "sounds" like the small man with the big ego got pushed onto his arse in front of his friends and over-reacted in an attempt to save face.

The tragic thing is that it probably worked. In not too long, he'll be back in the bar getting respect/face from the idiots that he was trying to impress.

Let's not try to justify this killing on the basis that the Canadian was possibly drunk and behaving badly. If he was, then he deserved a bit of a beating at the most, but to kill a guy for this is obscene and anyone who tries to justify it needs to take a good look at themselves.

just like to say i agree with everything you wrote......very well put

[stevemiddie]

Thai police are obliged to interfere if there is trouble brewing, even if they are off duty.

I have never ever seen a Thai policeman intercede in a Tha/Thai domestic dispute. I've seen them watch though.

Thai police are obliged to interfere if there is trouble brewing, even if they are off duty.

I have never ever seen a Thai policeman intercede in a Tha/Thai domestic dispute. I've seen them watch though.

A very valid point - from beginning I found it very hard to beleive that a Thai would get involved with any kind of incident such as this - ive seen for myself people walk right past withough even a pause when domestics are taking place. Surely there must be some other reason for the cop to have got involved

Thing I don't understand. The bullet entered the mouth and then went through and exited the shoulder. Now imagine the position you would have to be in to place a shot like that. It would suggest that person firing the shot was very much in control and firing from a higher vantage point. ie. Standing while the person being shot was lower down, maybe on their knees. Very execution style if you ask me.

Isn't it interesting how a pregnant woman's husband is now suddenly dead, with an interference from a domestic squabble, that is usually considered a non-issue by the culture? And, what timing: the guy just finds out his ex-wife/wife is pregnant by a Thai man, is understandably upset, and there is an OFF-DUTY, drunk cop right there, ready to shoot him "accidentally" - cough, cough - through the mouth and chest, and her through the chest.

How very convenient for someone, except that she lived. It will be interesting to hear about the forensic reports - but wait a minute - they work for the cops, too, don't they, unless we are talking about Pornthip.

Latest news clippings already posted are stating that she is denying she is pregnant. Lets not jump the gun here.

[sonnyJ]

Can I remind everyone a young man is DEAD and was killed by the bullets that came out of the gun fired by the Thai policeman. That is the whole story and until something else comes up don't tell keep telling us about how he should have had your superior knowledge of Thai customs so he deserved to die

As we know, we know nothing really. I was never saying that somebody deserved to die, but we all do at some point. What I said was many tourists don't understand anything about Thai way of life.

Edited January 7, 2008 by sonnyJ

[Theyreallrubbish]

Can I remind everyone a young man is DEAD and was killed by the bullets that came out of the gun fired by the Thai policeman. That is the whole story and until something else comes up don't tell keep telling us about how he should have had your superior knowledge of Thai customs so he deserved to die

As we know, we know nothing really. I was never saying that somebody deserved to die, but we all do at some point. What I said was many tourists don't understand anything about Thai way of life.

And they deserve to die for that?

[sonnyJ]

As someone said unnecessary violence. What is necessary violence?

[bulmercke]

This trigger happy cop intervened in a domestic dispute about which he had 'absolutely nothing to do with'.

Lets' hope the embassy don't bottle out - and err on the side of diplomacy!

[tattoodrob]

As someone said unnecessary violence. What is necessary violence?

i think if someone was trying to physically kill/harm you then im sure you could use necessary violence to stop them....or die!!!!!

[rafval]

I'm still stuck on this quote.... How can this be...??? Sane??? :

"Tilney said the police officer has been charged with manslaughter but is not being held in custody. The town's police chief said suspects who admit guilt are allowed to be released before their trials."

If we follow the logic here... then suspects who claim they are innocent will be kept imprisoned, only the guilty ones will be set free.

AND... does this mean that the police officer has admitted that he is guilty of premeditated murder???

Seems like an analogy to the time when suspected witches were dunked and held under water. If they drowned, they were declared innocent. If they survived, they were declared guilty.

I'm starting to feel dizzy and disoriented...

yes, well, he says his gun "accidentally went off" three times as he tried to defend himself. A rather odd way of admitting your guilt but guess its close enough.

[Chloe82]

It will be interesting to hear about the forensic reports - but wait a minute - they work for the cops, too, don't they,

I don't know where you get your information from or maybe we should call it misinformation as Central Institute of Forensic Science in Thailand are not under the control of the Royal Thai Police Force.

Chloe.

[sonnyJ]

As someone said unnecessary violence. What is necessary violence?

i think if someone was trying to physically kill/harm you then im sure you could use necessary violence to stop them....or die!!!!!

Or just stop them.

[sriracha john]

SURVIVOR'S CLAIM

Cop 'executed my best friend'

Officer 'hit me, shot Leo twice, then fired at me' Published on January 8, 2008

A young Canadian woman told yesterday how a Thai policeman shot dead her best friend in Pai in the North, then shot another bullet into his heart as he lay on the ground.

Carly Reisig, 24, said the policeman had no grounds at all for the attack - and that after he shot fellow Canadian John Leo del Pinto, the officer turned his gun on her and shot her in the chest.

Speaking from her bed in hospital in Chiang Mai, Reisig, from Chilliwack, British Columbia, rejected a police statement that suggested Sgt-Major Uthai Dechawiwat, 37, had intervened to break up a fight and his gun had discharged in a struggle.

She pointed to her chest where the bullet was lodged close to her own heart.

"There never was a fight. That is not true," she said. "John was my ex-boyfriend, but still my best friend. We had nothing to argue about. We had been drinking in the Be-Bop Bar in Pai and were heading for a last drink at the Bamboo Bar near the bridge.

"We were walking together. My Thai boyfriend Fuen was walking slightly behind. "A man came up to me on the road near Pee Dang's Restaurant and hit me for no reason.

"My face was painted with face paint, for fun, but I don't know why he hit me. We had never met him before, never seen him before. We were unarmed and walking down the road after a good night out.

"He was dressed in plain clothes, a white T-shirt. Leo shouted at him, 'You can't hit her!' and pushed him away from us. Then the man went to his motorbike and got his gun, and Leo tried to get it away from him.

"They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun and stepped back and shot Leo directly in the face.

"Leo fell to the ground and the man pointed the gun at his heart and fired a second shot. Then he turned around to me and aimed for my heart and shot me in the chest.

"I blacked out and when I came to I saw Leo lying dead on the road beside me. My lungs filled up with blood and I couldn't breathe.

"I went to Pai Hospital and then to a hospital in Chiang Mai. They had to put a tube into my lungs to drain the blood so that I could breathe again. "I can't believe that my best friend is dead and I've got a bullet right beside my heart.

"I have never been married, I am not pregnant. Leo was my ex-boyfriend from Canada. He had arrived in Pai a few days before to see me."

Sitting by her bed was her boyfriend Rattaporn Vara-wadee, an artist nicknamed Fuen.

He said: "Nothing we did gave this man the right to take lives. We are angry now and we need help and a good lawyer. We are shocked to hear that the policeman is already out on bail."

Asked again if they had been fighting, she replied: "Not at all, he was my best friend." She had spoken to del Pinto's family and said: "They are not doing well."

Suchart Pantai, the owner of Be-Bop Bar, said he saw the couple and Fuen leave his bar at about 1am. "There was no fighting. But I heard from other sources that they were play-fighting as they walked."

Reisig has been in Thailand for a year, leaving occasionally on visa runs. She has worked in Canada with physically and mentally handicapped people.

John Leo del Pinto, also 24, from Calgary in Alberta in west Canada, was a former music student who earned a living as a promoter and concert organiser.

Uthai Dechawiwat has been charged with murder, manslaughter and attempted murder, but the version of events issued by police in Pai is at total variance with Miss Reisig's story.

Case investigator Pol Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya said the couple had been drinking in a local pub and had become involved in a drunken brawl after del Pinto, who recently arrived in Thailand, found that Reisig was pregnant to a Thai man known as Fuen.

The couple continued arguing after they left the pub when Uthai arrived at the scene, near a bridge, on personal business. Uthai approached them and asked them to be calm but both foreigners turned to attack him.

The officer said Uthai was beaten to the ground by the couple. After managing to get up, Uthai pointed his service pistol to threaten away both foreigners, but del Pinto tried to snatch the pistol from him. After a scuffle, shots were fired and the couple went down.

Last night Graham Arscott, the father of Vanessa Arscott, 23, who was gunned down in Kanchanaburi with her boyfriend Adam Lloyd, 24, by Police Sgt-Major Wisetsingh said: "So sad. I feel so terribly sorry for this young man's family."

In the River Kwai case, Wisetsingh shot the couple dead in a fit of rage after being beaten to the ground by Lloyd, who it is believed thought the policeman was trying to hit on his girlfriend.

Like the Kanchanaburi case, the killing in the idyllic tourist village of Pai has the semblance of another police "loss of face" execution.

Andrew Drummond, Special to The Nation