Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[wintermute]

That's unfortunate and sad that someone had to die over this incident. We'll probably never know exactly what happened. The farang woman in this incident seems to keep shifting stories and doesn't seem all that stable either. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in the middle. Two parties were drunk..a cop entered into the picture..someone got physical and then it escalated from there.

Too bad for the man who got sent off this mortal coil but he should have known better than to get into it with a thai cop. There are just too many people around whether tourists or long term expats who feel that because they are white faced foreigners from wealthy countries the social chaos that passes for "rules" here doesn't apply to them. It's not a hollywood movie..you're not Bruce Willis you will get your a$$ beaten to a pulp or killed if you get into too deep with someone Thai. That's the way it is.

This isn't just Thailand but several other 2nd and 3rd world countries. If you've been here long enough you'd realize that there are no real laws here..everything is arbitrarily applied according to who the person is and the situation as it unfolds. Don't expect any justice or "fair" resolution out of any of this as well.

[meemiathai]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

First you have to dial back on the Red Bull. Your 20 almost confrontations seem plausible now. Some of the 900 plus posters here mentioned sensationalism in some of Andrew Drummond's past body of work. Some questioned his motives and facts in this particular case. I was not one of the posters accusing him of sensationalism I questioned why is he now contrite and regrets imparting the facts through his article in The Nation. He may be eluding to this website in his letter to The Nation today. As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

Six years full time, out everyday in Bangkok and zero confrontations with any Thais.

Whoa easy, I was serious about wanting to know what was sensationalised. If Im wrong about something I want someone to explain it to me but from everything Ive seen he was just telling the story, which is quite crazy all on its own. No need to infer I am antagonistic and attacking you. TO BE CLEAR: since people never seem to understand a dang thing Im saying... when I say Ive been in 20 situations where things could have gone bad if I had been drunk, most of them are as simple as this example:

Standing waiting for a taxi near kaosan road with a few friends, one angry young Thai man comes right up to me shouting "YOU BAD MAN, YOU THAT GUY!" (I know full well I am NOT "that guy" as I have had no interaction with anyone outside my group, not even a female, I came to meet friends for dinner and then was leaving) He is getting cloer and closer and looking like he might get physical. So what do I do? I SMILE and I keep smiling. I pretend I dont even know what he is talking about and just keep smiling sweetly at him. I casually look around and sure enough: there is a group of Thai men peeking around the corner 100 meters away, they keep checking to see if I get into it with their friend, so I just keep smiling and he calms down and backs away and I get into my taxi. That's it. I could be wrong but the situation felt like the friends were going to jump in as soon as the instigator started something with ANYONE.

Another example would be the few times a Thai man bumped into ME at a bar and started to get angry, I just smiled them away. If I was drunk perhaps I would have gotten angry and escalated the situation?

Damian

I seem to understand every dang thing you said and I actually agree with more than 90% of what you said.

Just one little thing I am curious about is your mentioning of the great chance of getting into trouble even when one behaves well sounds a little different from my experience in thailand. And I am really not saying this never happens. The only time I have really been very slightly threatened for no reason by a thai(wasn't even sure if it was just misunderstanding too) was in patpong area but this place is a shit hole to me. So I only go there like if I wanted an adventure but I very seldom do.

Of all the times I have been in thai discos and night venues, they have been pleasant and sometimes involves interactions with other thais. I have never recieved that many smiles in other places in the world. They don't even punch you for looking at their girls.(they even smile at you) Try doing that in the UK?

[DamianMavis]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

NO they didn't change, she has stuck to her story since the begninning, she did however say that OUTSIDE of what she has described she doesnt remember THE REST too clearly. But she has always stated that he walked up and punched her out of the blue, that never changed. If she doesnt remember other details she is admitting that, but she didnt back peddle and she didnt change her story, YOU decided that all on your own.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

She DIDN'T change what she said, admitting she doesnt remember other details outside of what she DOES remember (him hitting her by surprise) is not changing, she has always stated the same thing about him walking up and punching her. So she has nothing to apologise for.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

Only one person has come forward to say the officer was drunk, the young 22 year old bartender and GOD BLESS HIM for it, he is very brave, I hope he sticks to the truth and doesnt suddenly "remember" it differently due to outside pressure.

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

That's unfortunate and sad that someone had to die over this incident. We'll probably never know exactly what happened. The farang woman in this incident seems to keep shifting stories and doesn't seem all that stable either. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in the middle. Two parties were drunk..a cop entered into the picture..someone got physical and then it escalated from there.

Where did she shift her story? Saying she doesnt remember what else happened outside what she does remember? thats not shifting the story.

Too bad for the man who got sent off this mortal coil but he should have known better than to get into it with a thai cop. There are just too many people around whether tourists or long term expats who feel that because they are white faced foreigners from wealthy countries the social chaos that passes for "rules" here doesn't apply to them. It's not a hollywood movie..you're not Bruce Willis you will get your a$ beaten to a pulp or killed if you get into too deep with someone Thai. That's the way it is.

He DIDN'T get into it with a Thai cop! Cripes do you people read the same posts and articles I do!? The cop says he was attacked so I guess you believe that then.... but the VICTIMS account and the Thai boyfriends is that Leo simply pushed the attacker (cop) away when his FEMALE friend was punched right in the face! YOU WOULDNT DO THAT?! Id be dead too because theres no way in hel_l I'd watch a man punch a female friend of mine right in front of me without trying to seperate him from her to protect her from further harm. My god.....

This isn't just Thailand but several other 2nd and 3rd world countries. If you've been here long enough you'd realize that there are no real laws here..everything is arbitrarily applied according to who the person is and the situation as it unfolds. Don't expect any justice or "fair" resolution out of any of this as well.

Right I totally agree.

I seem to understand every dang thing you said and I actually agree with more than 90% of what you said.

Just one little thing I am curious about is your mentioning of the great chance of getting into trouble even when one behaves well sounds a little different from my experience in thailand. And I am really not saying this never happens. The only time I have really been very slightly threatened for no reason by a thai(wasn't even sure if it was just misunderstanding too) was in patpong area but this place is a shit hole to me. So I only go there like if I wanted an adventure but I very seldom do.

No I didint say GREAT chance heh, I just said it still could happen to you even if you mind your own business and always act polite. MUCH more rare but it can happen, there have already been several examples of nice people being targetted on this thread. Here's another: Im at a bar, ALL Thais, a very cute girl is looking at me and when she catches my eye she wiggles her butt at me in a cute little dance while looking over her shoulder... I couldnt help laughing a little but didnt make any prolonged eye contact or approach her in any way... but of course she is doing all this right in front of her thai date...... so he gets upset and makes like to come over to me but she holds him back. Whether he is serious or not I dont know, but this is exactly how nice guys land up dead for NOTHING. Starts off with some random dumbass thing and turns into glassing or bullets flying out of pride or ego or face. If he had come over of course I would have been as nice as possible but would that have worked? So far it almost always has.

Of all the times I have been in thai discos and night venues, they have been pleasant and sometimes involves interactions with other thais. I have never recieved that many smiles in other places in the world. They don't even punch you for looking at their girls.(they even smile at you) Try doing that in the UK?

Most of the time Thai people are nice to me too! Much nicer than Ottawa'n meatheads at all the bars I went to when I lived there.

I'd like to remind EVERYONE that it is in fact the POLICE that keep changing THEIR story. And doing it many times! They tried to portray Leo as a huge aggressive weight lifter when he is in fact a lean looking artsy fartsy type, they tried to make up a story about Carly fighting with her boyfriends about the non existent baby in her tummy. There is no pregnancy and therefore no reason for this imaginary fight the cops made up. They have now mentioned retracting that statement. The circumstances around who attacked who changed, at first the Thai boyfriend wasnt involved, then they said he also attacked the officer, 3 on 1! The circumstances around how the officer fired his weapon has also changed..... Im sure there are more examples but the point is, the police have never had a solid story that stayed firm the whole time, not even close!

Damian

Edited January 13, 2008 by DamianMavis

[sabaijai]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Perhaps, however some people over the past few days feel that he was sensationalizing the case and now he wants to let everyone know that he is contrite.

Sensasionalised how exactly? Give me examples from his article please. The case IS sensational enough all on its own, I dont think he added to that personally but prove me wrong.

Damian

First you have to dial back on the Red Bull. Your 20 almost confrontations seem plausible now. Some of the 900 plus posters here mentioned sensationalism in some of Andrew Drummond's past body of work. Some questioned his motives and facts in this particular case. I was not one of the posters accusing him of sensationalism I questioned why is he now contrite and regrets imparting the facts through his article in The Nation. He may be eluding to this website in his letter to The Nation today. As for a an example of sensationalism let me refer you to a photo on his website: www.andrew-drummond.com/2008/01/10/canadian-backpacker-admits-she-had-hit-thai-policeman/ that is posted with each article about this case. It is the back of a subject wearing a shirt proclaiming, "Better to Lie Than to Die". Why is it there at all because there is no explanation? Is he somehow telling us he is lying or is he saying we should lie to protect ourselves? Or maybe he says everyone is lying? Perhaps he is joining the growing ranks of shirt vendors?

Six years full time, out everyday in Bangkok and zero confrontations with any Thais.

"Better to Lie than die"

Some mistake surely. That was a picture used by the Nation and taken in Pai after the murder which seems to to me to encapsulate what is happening in Pai. I think you are in the minority here and have badly missed the point. Does someone else need to spell this out? I have checked his website. Seems he has used this picture a few times now. Its almost becoming a logo for the story. If you see in the letter to the Nation he refers to witnesses, links to police etc

I did read the Andy Drummond's letter to The Nation this morning before I posted it on this thread. Whose mistake could this be? What kind of a mantra is "BETTER TO LIE THAN TO DIE"? To use it in this context will further polarize interested or affected groups. It serves no other purpose other than inflame all sides.

I'm in Pai and the comment 'That was a picture used by the Nation and taken in Pai after the murder which seems to to me to encapsulate what is happening in Pai,' couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone is discussing the case, and not one person here - Thai or foreigner - has mentioned being afraid of the police (with regard to this case anyway). The police dept itself charged the officer with murder even though they felt the initial evidence and witness testimony suggested an accidental shooting (which now looks doubtful).

By the way, I checked with the Pai police dept today and the charges brought against Uthai include one count of 'murder' and one of 'attempted murder' for Carly's shooting. Foreign reporters added the word 'pre-meditated' to the translation.

[sabaijai]

Only one person has come forward to say the officer was drunk, the young 22 year old bartender and GOD BLESS HIM for it, he is very brave, I hope he sticks to the truth and doesnt suddenly "remember" it differently due to outside pressure.

Wrong. Most of the witnesses at Daeng's stated he looked drunk as well. We now also have the testimony of two off-duty policemen from an adjacent province and a group of four civilian friends who saw Uthai at Bebop before the incident and witnessed the shooting as well, all say he appeared to be intoxicated. None of the witnesses I've interviewed have appeared to feel it was especially daring to mention this fact.

The idea that the people of Pai are cowering in fear of the police, when it comes to the shooting of two foreigners, seems absurd to those of us residing here. That doesn't mean the facts are clear. One must remember it was the middle of the night and many who were present at or near the crime scene may have been in various states of inebriation themselves. Thus there's lots of contradicting testimony.

er, pai isn't exactly rural thai culture. it has long been inundated by the edgier farangs.

And from my understanding from a friend who has lived in Pai for a few years now, most of the Thai people in Pai aren't actually from Pai. They are from Bangkok, Samui, Chiang Mai etc.

Not true, Thais from outside Pai form a minority here. Most of the population in Muang Pai are northern Thai, Shan and Yunnanese. Of these three groups, the Shan are in the the majority, followed by the northern Thai and Yunnanese. If you extend to all of Pai District than it includes a healthy percentage of Karen and Lisu. There are perhaps a few hundred Thais from outside Mae Hong Son Province living here. The muang itself counts around 4000 inhabitants, the district about six times that (pop 25,000. in 7 tambons and 61 villages).

But isn't Ko Pha-Ngan mostly Bangkok Thais now?

[canuckamuck]

You are a fool. And for that I feel sorry for you.

A young man is dead, It sure sounds to me like a murder. Plain and simple.

Please refrain from ignorant comments about something you know nothing about.

I am from Ontario and there is NEVER a bad word spoken about anyone from ANY other province in this country,

we are not like that.

The fact that our government seems to have done nothing does not surprise me, I didn't vote for them.

Other than that I would politely like to ask you to refrain from slandering anyone, Canadian or otherwise,

from behind your computer screen.

Kindly,

Jeff

A bit over the top don't you think Jeff. For one thing ThaiGene never even mentioned the slain couple, only the Canadian government. And You slandered the same government in the same post. On top of that you expect us to believe that in Canada there are no regional biases. Now we know you are from Ontario for sure eh? C'mon Jeff there are at least five Canadians contributing to this thread. What are you trying to defend?

BTW, I think ThaiGene is one of them Canucks.

[sbk]

er, pai isn't exactly rural thai culture. it has long been inundated by the edgier farangs.

And from my understanding from a friend who has lived in Pai for a few years now, most of the Thai people in Pai aren't actually from Pai. They are from Bangkok, Samui, Chiang Mai etc.

Not true, Thais from outside Pai form a minority here. Most of the population in Muang Pai are northern Thai, Shan and Yunnanese. Of these three groups, the Shan are in the the majority, followed by the northern Thai and Yunnanese. If you extend to all of Pai District than it includes a healthy percentage of Karen and Lisu. There are perhaps a few hundred Thais from outside Mae Hong Son Province living here. The muang itself counts around 4000 inhabitants, the district about six times that (pop 25,000. in 7 tambons and 61 villages).

But isn't Ko Pha-Ngan mostly Bangkok Thais now?

Call it the new Isaan province sabaijai. Not so many Bangkokians as Isaan laborers. I'd say the local population is about 7000-8000, total population about 15-18,000. Mostly itinerant workers with no investment in the island except what they can get out of it. But that is off-topic and a whole other can of worms.

[sabaijai]

er, pai isn't exactly rural thai culture. it has long been inundated by the edgier farangs.

And from my understanding from a friend who has lived in Pai for a few years now, most of the Thai people in Pai aren't actually from Pai. They are from Bangkok, Samui, Chiang Mai etc.

Not true, Thais from outside Pai form a minority here. Most of the population in Muang Pai are northern Thai, Shan and Yunnanese. Of these three groups, the Shan are in the the majority, followed by the northern Thai and Yunnanese. If you extend to all of Pai District than it includes a healthy percentage of Karen and Lisu. There are perhaps a few hundred Thais from outside Mae Hong Son Province living here. The muang itself counts around 4000 inhabitants, the district about six times that (pop 25,000. in 7 tambons and 61 villages).

But isn't Ko Pha-Ngan mostly Bangkok Thais now?

Call it the new Isaan province sabaijai. Not so many Bangkokians as Isaan laborers. I'd say the local population is about 7000-8000, total population about 15-18,000. Mostly itinerant workers with no investment in the island except what they can get out of it. But that is off-topic and a whole other can of worms.

OT but interesting, and makes sense. In Pai many of the workers are Shan immigrants from Myanmar's Shan State, along with a few Burmans from other states/divisions in Myanmar

[calibanjr.]

You are a fool. And for that I feel sorry for you.

A young man is dead, It sure sounds to me like a murder. Plain and simple.

Please refrain from ignorant comments about something you know nothing about.

I am from Ontario and there is NEVER a bad word spoken about anyone from ANY other province in this country,

we are not like that.

The fact that our government seems to have done nothing does not surprise me, I didn't vote for them.

Other than that I would politely like to ask you to refrain from slandering anyone, Canadian or otherwise,

from behind your computer screen.

Kindly,

Jeff

A bit over the top don't you think Jeff. For one thing ThaiGene never even mentioned the slain couple, only the Canadian government. And You slandered the same government in the same post. On top of that you expect us to believe that in Canada there are no regional biases. Now we know you are from Ontario for sure eh? C'mon Jeff there are at least five Canadians contributing to this thread. What are you trying to defend?

BTW, I think ThaiGene is one of them Canucks.

Well, I think Jeff IS a bit over the top, insofar as he responded to such a DAFT post after all. Doesn't Thaigene imply that Ottawa is in Francophone Canada?

Edited January 13, 2008 by calibanjr.

[sangfroid]

Nice !

RIP to another victim of useless violence .

I wonder if we will see something on the news ,

it should be .

About 2 years ago a British couple was shot to death by a police officer. Kanchanaburi?

Is this cop doing prison time?

(Sorry if this is too off-topic.)

It's highly unlikely he is still in jail, some 3 or 4 years ago the Thai media reported about a man who was supposed to be serving a life sentence for murder, he was serving his sentence in a jail in Chonburi but someone saw him in one of the bar area of Bangkok and contacted the press, after the usual initial indignation in the papers, nothing was ever heard of it again

[Arkady]

TAT over to you. This is doing nothing to help your cause. at work

Bring back Juthamas. She is just the person for this job. With a modest budget of US$10 million she could hire an unheard of PR agency abroad to convince the world that Del Pinto was a mentally unstable young man who grabbed the sergeant's gun and committed suicide by shooting himself twice.

[Arkady]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

You should draw your own conclusion from the fact that the Post is not covering this story, just publishing police press releases. Look at who controls The Nation and The Post. The Nation is still controlled by people who started it during the Thanon-Praphas dictatorship to be able to use English to put out more accurate news. Since most of the top brass in those days had not studied abroad and couldn't read English they were able to get away with a lot more than Thai language papers. The Post is owned by conservative business people like one of the owners of Central Dept Store and one of Thaksin's buddies owns a big stake but failed to get control. The Post will never run investigative pieces like this.

[Arkady]

Perhaps the Canadian government is keeping a low profile because they know things we do not know and will likely never know. For lives to be lost in such a senseless manner is truly a shame. I think for off duty police officers to be armed is a good thing. IF they plan on drinking they should NOT be permitted to carry a gun and should be prosecuted if they do. It has been VERY obvious over the years that drunks and guns are a lethal mixture.

More likely they are shirking their responsibility to stick up for the rights of their citizens because they don't want friction with the RTG or to get bogged down in a no win situation. I used to have a lot of contact with the Canadian Embassy. They are lovely people but it is a trade promotion and party post and a larger proportion of their professional staff are Thai nationals or dual national look krungs than you would find in other Western embassies.

[Kerryd]

Dear Friend,

I am angered by your comments and would say nasty things about your character but what would that do?

You should really only comment on the things you know about.

You are a fool. And for that I feel sorry for you.

A young man is dead, It sure sounds to me like a murder. Plain and simple.

Please refrain from ignorant comments about something you know nothing about.

You might want to switch to decaf the next time you drop by Timmy's there Jeff.

He was making (sarcastic) reference to the people working in the Foreign Affairs department, not towards del Pinto or his family.

I am from Ontario and there is NEVER a bad word spoken about anyone from ANY other province in this country,

we are not like that.

Well, that has got to be one of the biggest piles of crap I've heard in a long time ! I'm originally from BC, and I can tell you that there are a lot of "bad words" said about just about every other province, by people in just about every province. In BC we even joke that we put up the Rocky Mountains to keep all you easterners out !

The fact that our government seems to have done nothing does not surprise me, I didn't vote for them.

So, if you had voted Conservative instead of Liberal, would you be surprised that the gov't has done little, if anything ? Do you honestly think the Liberals would do anything more ?

Try to remember that the only elected Conservative in the Foreign Affairs department is the Minister. The rest are all bureacrats that will be there regardless of who is in power at the time.

A young man is dead, his girl has been shot twice at point blank range and had a pretty mean punch to the face,

one life is over, many other lives in their families have been ruined and changed forever.

They were young people in love walking on a street in some far off land living their dreams, one shot dead,

one shot twice by a drunk public official.

Did you even read the articles at all ?

A) It was the young man that was shot twice. The girl was shot once.

B ) They were not "in love" "living their dreams". By her account, they were "play-fighting". By other accounts they were in a full blown argument to the point that someone asked a police officer to intervene (depending on whose version you chose to believe). Even her boyfriend never commented on whether he thought they were really fighting or just playing around (and he was supposedly just a few steps behind).

I doubt we will ever know the full truth about what happened. Everyone is going to pick the version that suits them the best and "to h3ll with anyone that thinks different"

(personally, it wouldn't surprise me to find that this was a botched "hit" arranged by the Thai b/f upon learning that Carly's old flame was coming back. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction)

[Arkady]

I was quite surprised by Andrew Drummond's letter in The Nation today. I think it speaks volumes that a hardened news professional sees the victim of an attempted murder being treated so unfairly by the authorities (and others) that he expresses remorse over having published the full balanced results of his investigations. I don't see any problem with drawing parallels with the Kanchanaburi murders. The point that witnesses to the these murders refused to testify in court (but spoke privately to the victims' parents) is highly relevant in discussing witness behaviour in the Pai case. In addition, since he writes mainly for the British press, it is reasonable that he should draw a comparision with a case involving British victims that was widely covered in the British press. What would be the point in deliberately avoiding trying to relate to your readers and maybe not getting published at all? This is not sensationalism and he is the only seasoned expat reporter doing this work in Thailand. If not for him, no foreign reporter with local experience would have reported the story at all. The foreign press would just have got police press releases and stuff written by fly ins who don't know Thailand or have any connections here.

[Journalist]

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

Can someone explain to me the above 'Thai girlffriend with tatooed balls' comment. Thx.

[keyman]

Perhaps the Canadian government is keeping a low profile because they know things we do not know and will likely never know. For lives to be lost in such a senseless manner is truly a shame. I think for off duty police officers to be armed is a good thing. IF they plan on drinking they should NOT be permitted to carry a gun and should be prosecuted if they do. It has been VERY obvious over the years that drunks and guns are a lethal mixture.

More likely they are shirking their responsibility to stick up for the rights of their citizens because they don't want friction with the RTG or to get bogged down in a no win situation. I used to have a lot of contact with the Canadian Embassy. They are lovely people but it is a trade promotion and party post and a larger proportion of their professional staff are Thai nationals or dual national look krungs than you would find in other Western embassies.

I am still confused. Didn't someone alredy say the Embassy sent a Cdn investigator to Pai? And their minister wrote a letter to govt here? What else should they be doing? Did they help get that murdered boy's body back to his house in Canada? Did they visit Carly in hospital? They should do that at least. But what else does every people here think they should be doing?

[mikethevigoman]

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

Can someone explain to me the above 'Thai girlffriend with tatooed balls' comment. Thx.

The plot thickens,. was it a farang katoey !

[tattoodrob]

quik sum up then................they were drunk,cop was drunk.......some sort of altercation,drunk cop tries to kill them both.....succeeds on one count..then comes the cover up with help of his friends(cops).....canadian lady goes home......everything dies down.....cop moved to other station.........end of story.this is thailand!!!

moral of story.....we live in country that is corrupt therefore unless you come from a very rich family then there will be no justice for foreigners or poor unconnected thais, as to get them to do the right thing and punish the drunk cop for taking a young mans life then it will take many bribes to many people which would see him put inside maybe for a couple of months/years then he will be sneakily let out anyway!!!

i dont know if thailand can ever be uncorrupted...........money is god here.........not buddha!!!

[DamianMavis]

quik sum up then................they were drunk,cop was drunk.......some sort of altercation,drunk cop tries to kill them both.....succeeds on one count..then comes the cover up with help of his friends(cops).....canadian lady goes home......everything dies down.....cop moved to other station.........end of story.this is thailand!!!

moral of story.....we live in country that is corrupt therefore unless you come from a very rich family then there will be no justice for foreigners or poor unconnected thais, as to get them to do the right thing and punish the drunk cop for taking a young mans life then it will take many bribes to many people which would see him put inside maybe for a couple of months/years then he will be sneakily let out anyway!!!

i dont know if thailand can ever be uncorrupted...........money is god here.........not buddha!!!

Pretty much.... but one thing that bothers me, in the other case where the police officer who was succesfully convicted of murder and then seems to be let out and never actually did the time he was supposed to do (or did a tiny bit of it) what is the big problem here? I mean, why at all costs must a police officer NOT be punished? Was he really connected or rich? Or is there just no way a Thai policeman will ever be punished even for brutal murder? I'm asking the thoughts of people that might have some insight as I have no clue.

Also, does anyone know of any confirmed cases of police going to jail? And for how long and for what crime?

Damian

Edited January 13, 2008 by DamianMavis

[Kerryd]

If a Thai man with freaky long hair with a thai girlfriend with tatooed balls orbiting her eyes had hit a cop and generally been disrespectful and subsequently shot in Vancouver, I doubt the Thai ambassador would be ranting in Ottawa for a complete dismantling of the Canadian law enforcement system. Why is that these North Americans come to Thailand and think they own the place? Pitiful and incomprehensible arrogance.

Can someone explain to me the above 'Thai girlffriend with tatooed balls' comment. Thx.

I believe he was referencing the tattooed stars (not balls, but hard to tell from the pic) that Carly has around her left eye.

[jumnien]

Can someone please post a photo of the tatooed objects orbiting Carly's eyes?

[blaze]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Exactly.

As for the story about the Canadian guy's father and his lack of information from the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Ottawa, Canada, I'm hardly surprised. Probably none of them can speak English..they're all french aren't they - and they probably don't care what happend outside of Ontario and Quebec anyway - since it was just 'backpacker' from Alberta?

I am from Ontario and there is NEVER a bad word spoken about anyone from ANY other province in this country,

we are not like that.

"Let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark" Ralph Klein, mayor of Calgary, later to become Premier of Alberta."

[Claymore]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

Drummond has not changed his story. It is one thing for a Thai person to tell a foreigner in Pai what happened. I think finding a Thai person to repeat that in court is what is at issue here. But as u say Drummond has reported both sides.

This issue at the end of the day shd be how the gun was fired. Not the girls history - though as Drummond says 'in the Thai context', it was relevant.

[Kerryd]

Can someone please post a photo of the tatooed objects orbiting Carly's eyes?

They are just around her left eye:

Post #244

Harder to see in the pic in this post:

Post #268

(couldn't be bothered with copying the pics and attaching them)

[Johpa]

Perhaps the Canadian government is keeping a low profile because they know things we do not know and will likely never know. For lives to be lost in such a senseless manner is truly a shame. I think for off duty police officers to be armed is a good thing. IF they plan on drinking they should NOT be permitted to carry a gun and should be prosecuted if they do. It has been VERY obvious over the years that drunks and guns are a lethal mixture.

Or perhaps the Canadian government is keeping a low profile because they know what most of us know, and that is they really can't change anything here. Thailand is what it is, a third world country where the police are well connected and in charge. As tragic as this story is, there is little sympathy in western government circles for eccentric young people who go off to remote regions, especially to small towns like Pai where the main attraction is a combination of natural beauty and availability of drugs, and then have tragedy or evil befall them.

[thaigene2]

Perhaps the Canadian government is keeping a low profile because they know things we do not know and will likely never know. For lives to be lost in such a senseless manner is truly a shame. I think for off duty police officers to be armed is a good thing. IF they plan on drinking they should NOT be permitted to carry a gun and should be prosecuted if they do. It has been VERY obvious over the years that drunks and guns are a lethal mixture.

The only thing the Canadian government likely knows more than us is that there is no political motive for them to cause a diplomatic stir (like they did in Iran). They'll just quietly do their normal job of offering to provide legal assistance, repatriation of the body, etc.

They need to be told to speak out (e.g the Ambassador needs to be told by his bosses in Ottawa - like any other country would do). They see no strategic/poltical benefit so they will say nothing publicly. Oh -and yes - I do know a few things about this Jeff.

[thaigene2]

What kind of reporter would consider reporting the facts a mistake here in Thailand?

A: An honest one

Exactly.

As for the story about the Canadian guy's father and his lack of information from the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Ottawa, Canada, I'm hardly surprised. Probably none of them can speak English..they're all french aren't they - and they probably don't care what happend outside of Ontario and Quebec anyway - since it was just 'backpacker' from Alberta?

I am from Ontario and there is NEVER a bad word spoken about anyone from ANY other province in this country,

we are not like that.

"Let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark" Ralph Klein, mayor of Calgary, later to become Premier of Alberta."

Yes Jeff is right - a bad 'word' was never spoken -- but what about Pierre's errant finger in Vancouver? Maybe before your time..

[thaigene2]

I was quite surprised by Andrew Drummond's letter in The Nation today. I think it speaks volumes that a hardened news professional sees the victim of an attempted murder being treated so unfairly by the authorities (and others) that he expresses remorse over having published the full balanced results of his investigations. I don't see any problem with drawing parallels with the Kanchanaburi murders. The point that witnesses to the these murders refused to testify in court (but spoke privately to the victims' parents) is highly relevant in discussing witness behaviour in the Pai case. In addition, since he writes mainly for the British press, it is reasonable that he should draw a comparision with a case involving British victims that was widely covered in the British press. What would be the point in deliberately avoiding trying to relate to your readers and maybe not getting published at all? This is not sensationalism and he is the only seasoned expat reporter doing this work in Thailand. If not for him, no foreign reporter with local experience would have reported the story at all. The foreign press would just have got police press releases and stuff written by fly ins who don't know Thailand or have any connections here.

Another good post Arkady.

[Kerryd]

Wow. 970 posts and over 65,000 views (and nobody is really sure what actually took place).

I wonder what the reaction would have been like if this had been two (Americans, British or Australian) citizens ?

By reaction, I mean official reaction by the respective Government/Embassy etc. I'm sure the TV response would have been overwhelming.

Doing a bit of googling and noticed that the place the policman was supposedly transferred to (Pang Ma Pa), is located between Pai and Mae Hong Son. If I recall correctly, did not one of the articles mention that Carly was going to be transferred from the hospital in Chiang Mai to one in Mae Hong Son ? Didn't make sense to me, as I'm sure the hospital in CM is probably better equiped to deal with gunshot victims.

Hmmmm, but MHS is much closer to Pang Ma Pa..........