Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[thaigene2]

Wow. 970 posts and over 65,000 views (and nobody is really sure what actually took place)....

I think the intense interest in this is that: 1, it's high-season for tourists, so a lot of people visit this and other boards, 2, the situation in Thailand is pretty unstable and so more potential visitors and expats here are paying even more attention to the weirdness of goings on, and 3, It's not every day that 2 tourists get shot in Thailand by a cop - though it wasn't too long ago that exactly the same thing happened. - people are becoming a bit unnerved about Thailand. And it's showing in the number of posts IMHO.

[geriatrickid]

The only thing the Canadian government likely knows more than us is that there is no political motive for them to cause a diplomatic stir (like they did in Iran). They'll just quietly do their normal job of offering to provide legal assistance, repatriation of the body, etc.

They need to be told to speak out (e.g the Ambassador needs to be told by his bosses in Ottawa - like any other country would do). They see no strategic/poltical benefit so they will say nothing publicly. Oh -and yes - I do know a few things about this Jeff.

There will not be any speaking out until the the autopsy and file reviews are finished. I hope that the physical survey of the deceased will have been undertaken in Thailand since corpses destined for export usually are preserved with chemicals (for health reasons) and the body will have been sliced and diced already by local investigators. As well, the body fluid analysis can take several weeks to do and hopefully was done in Thailand. The analysis will show the alcohol level and presence of other substances in the deceased's body at the time of death. It will also be of interest for the embassy investigaton to check the blood samples of the female at the time of her admission to hospital. A stoned or drunk witness doesn't have much credibility with investigators as events are usually misinterpreted by the subjects, particularly timelines.

[Loptr]

5. Columbia

Columbia is a country rich in resources - substantial oil fields, gold, silver, emeralds, platinum and coal, so your tourist trip could be quite profitable, if it weren’t for the violence and inherent danger in this war-torn country. Columbia used to have the highest murder rate per capita and the highest kidnapping rate per capita in the world, but has since stabilised somewhat and is a far safer place than it used to be. It therefore says something that, after all these improvements, it still has the highest murder rate per capita and the highest kidnapping rate per capita in the world.

Dangers

Nation parks used as guerrilla training camps

Kidnapping for ransom

Highest murder rate per capita in the world

Highest kidnapping rate per capita in the world

Travel risk: Very High

I might be able to lend credibility to your post IF you knew how to spell the name of the country...

I have traveled through every area of Colombia via bus, motorcycle & hired car for years without incident... Part of being a savy traveler... BTW, I'm 195cm tall and am a white man... No way I am mistaken to be a Paisa...

Just an example of being careful and NOT putting too much credence in State Department or Department of Defense propoganda...

Shame about the Canadian tourists... Hopefully karma will catch up with Uthai...

[Stephen Cleary]

I'm pleased to see...

Whoever this guy is, he quite obviously knows what he is talking about.

Thanks Barry.

We hope to read more of your stuff at thaivisa.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text. No need to quote the entire, lengthy post - Maestro

[niteowl]

Hopefully karma will catch up with Uthai...

Amen.

[bulmercke]

...I think it speaks volumes that a hardened news professional sees the victim of an attempted murder being treated so unfairly by the authorities (and others) that he expresses remorse over having published the full balanced results of his investigations.

Arkady - good post. I'm sure Andrew Drummond's letter in the Nation today raised more than a few eyebrows amongst seasoned expats here. It certainly did with me!

I truly and sincerely hope he follows up - and duly continues to report comprehensively and honestly on this shocking case.

[bulmercke]

Bebop Bar -

Pai - 11 January 2008 -

Edited January 13, 2008 by bulmercke

[BarryMan]

...I think it speaks volumes that a hardened news professional sees the victim of an attempted murder being treated so unfairly by the authorities (and others) that he expresses remorse over having published the full balanced results of his investigations.

Arkady - good post. I'm sure Andrew Drummond's letter in the Nation today raised more than a few eyebrows amongst seasoned expats here. It certainly did with me!

I truly and sincerely hope he follows up - and duly continues to report comprehensively and honestly on this shocking case.

So what would it take for Andrew Drummond's boosters on this forum to think him a bad journalist? Prejudicing the case from jump? He's done that in his first story when he said, without referencing a single source and only relying on his own authority (the kind of authority you get from staying in Bangkok while you write your expert analyses on Thailand events occurring miles away) to say that this case was a mirror of the "face-saving" killings in Kanchanaburi.

Does Mr. Drummond investigate these pieces on his own or does he call up Damien on Thaivisa.com and between the two of them they figure what's what with the world?

I would like to have been proven wrong on here, but I've only received idiotic counters to my posts, such as those that come from Damien (And I paraphrase his initial rant "YOU'RE LYING!! YOU MAKE UP EVERYTHING",.... Right.... Let me know when your 21st time being involved with Thai cops comes about and I'll call the Guinness Book and tell them they have a contender for most annoying farang of the year, and also I want to know when you and the other farang are going to get together to sing "Redemption Song" by Bob Marley.I want to be there to witness one of the great civil-rights movements in history.)...

Those who assume Drummond "knows something" should think twice. He's saving his own reputation after he published an initial accounting of things that could not have been more irresponsible journalistically.

Thanks to a poster, I believe by the name of 'sabaijai', who is actually on the scene. Don't worry about running into Andrew Drummond there, because you won't. He is a lazy telephone journalist.

I look forward to hearing more of the REAL version of things going on there from people like Sabaijai, and I hope the rest of you are able to put a grip on your paranoia as farangs for long enough to get a good dose of the truth.

This poor Canadian fellow did not deserve to die, but that is not reason for us as Westerners to bury the entire story in a bunch of xenophobic, lying s*it.. It would be a better tribute to his memory to speak truthfully of this incident and to acknowledge that from all we know it was his a**hole drunken female friend who sparked it, and another irresponsible a**hole drunk cop who did the killing. Let's not lie, and let's not let the stupid paranoia and idiocy of the day carry us away.

[Boo]

to acknowledge that from all we know it was his a**hole drunken female friend who sparked it, and another irresponsible a**hole drunk cop who did the killing. Let's not lie, and let's not let the stupid paranoia and idiocy of the day carry us away.

So she sparked it alone did she? I recall from the reporting that she & the dead guy were walking along being loud together, so why is she purely the only one who kicked it off? It really doesn't matter what she has done in the past or what her reputation was in Pai, unless uthai was the same cop she had a run in with in the past then I can't see how there is much connection. It may turn out that she & the victim were being loud, uthai came along to break up a dispute & they attacked him but her prior conduct has nothing to do with this tragic incident. If prior actions were a license for cops to shoot farang then half of Pattaya would be dead already!!! Also if ALL reports are to be beleived it was the dead guy who threw the first punch & not her so I just can't see why she is the spark.?

Far too easy to tie it all up by demonising this woman, yes she may be a nightmare & caused aggro in the past but if her only crime that night was walking along, being loud with a freind then I just don't see how it justifies her & this poor unfortunate man being shot.

[jumnien]

...Far too easy to tie it all up by demonising this woman, yes she may be a nightmare & caused aggro in the past but if her only crime that night was walking along, being loud with a freind then I just don't see how it justifies her & this poor unfortunate man being shot.

This isn't the buddhist forum but I'm not sure karma works this way. Legal responsibility works this way, but karma is accumulative. As the buddha would have said, "Tourists take care!"

[Boo]

Legal responsibility to what happened that night yes I agree but quite honestly I can't see what she or the dead guy got up to in the past has to do with anything. If there had been some proof that she or the other victim had a run in with uthai himself sometime in the past then I could understand the connection but nothing has be reported to that effect so basically as has been reported, they (canadians) were walking along the road being followed by the thai bf & (alledgedly) were fighting, uthai came along & (allegedly) told them he was police & a scuffle occurred resulting in 3 shots being fired, 2 into the dead man & one into the women.

Nothing in that report (or the other where the office slapped her & didn't id himself) suggests that her or the dead mans prior actions had any relevance to this situation. It has relevance to the gathering of profiles & for people to give their opinion on their character & their opinions of what the victims deserved or not but not on what happened that night. Just trying to keep some basic prespective.

And trust me I am not defending this women, she looks like a nightmare & from accounts sounds like one too, a person you would cross the road to avoid but she seems to be a nice & easy scapegoat for a lot of people based on having a couple of thai bf's over the course of her stay in thailand & for getting involved in one fight several months prior where it has been agreed she wasn't the instigator but involved via a 3rd party. Hardly reason to blame her for the death of a young man imo.

[jumnien]

Not blaming her for anything. Just suggesting to other tourists and farang residents that they may perhaps want to dress conservatively while in the Kingdom, act deferentially, respect others, seek non-confrontation and harmony, etc. If you must disobey the fifth precept then do it at your own residence and not out in public in the middle of the night in a small town. Following basic guidelines will bring happiness. Often these travellers bring a "I'm a farang and I'll do what when I want" attitude to Thailand. Many get away with it, some pay the price.

[kat]

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

<Flame removed> it is apparent that lies and self-interests are swirling in every which way here, beyond just the people and suspects in this case, to "long-term expats" and others who are trying to defend their "turf" and desired branding of events. Perhaps people who live here don't believe everything they hear for a reason, and perhaps Drummond knew more then he could say when he alluded to certain "long-term expats" and witnesses connected to cops. And, perhaps skepticism based on experience isn't idiocy at all, but reality. One thing is for sure, many of us won't be lapping up your sorry excuse of a charade.

So what would it take for Andrew Drummond's boosters on this forum to think him a bad journalist?...

Right - how convenient; I'd much rather wait for the word from forensics - if evidence hasn't been completely ruined - than to care what some anonymous "newbie" without the balls to post in his usual moniker would think about me.

[the gent]

An extraordinary thread which is beginning to tell us more about the range of prejudice among posters than perhaps anything else.

I too was surprised by Drummond's correspondence to the newspaper. As far as I am aware he hasn't resorted to this tactic previously but then I suppose he hasn't encountered such poisonous drivel in the quantity that appears in this forum before and in penning his cri de coeur he was simply taking a swipe at the' expat resident ' redneck morons responsible.

Also, I suspect the odd attack upon his integrity, as exampled by Battyman (sic) and his simpering acolytes, is motivated by a malice born out of inferiority that cannot be assuaged elsewhere.

Just to emphasise the point, Drummond is a consummate professional riven with integrity and a compassion that raises him to a level many hacks can only aspire to. Anyone who knows him will attest to this and his reputation among his peers is deservedly high.

The issue under debate now seems to have shifted from the obvious culpability of the wretched policeman to the character of the surviving victim in much the same way as a rape victim's morality is scrutinised in a feeble attempt to shift the focus of blame from the rapist and is just as unedyfying. I have not the appetite to counter this disgraceful argument since its proponents seem beyond any reason and can only tip my hat to messrs Arkady,Damian and Boo among others whose stamina in keeping the flag of commonsense flying is one of the few redeeming features of the thread.

[kat]

Well, this isn't a rape, so it shouldn't be compared to one, but even if it was, physical evidence is important as well as allegations. In this case, we have the astounding physical evidence of overwhelming, deadly force by an off-duty cop used on two unarmed, albeit, unruly members of the public.

We can't prove if he Uthai was drunk because he left; we only have second-hand accounts.

We can't prove if Reisig and Del Pinto hit the cop first, because this is also a second-hand account, and both first-hand accounts vary.

If they did hit or push the cop, does this warrant deadly force -- twice? This alleged offense anywhere else should have gotten them arrested and deported, but not killed. Did Reisig's story shift - yes; Did the cop's story shift - yes; Do they both have bad character references - yes;

Do cops have the right to execute unruly members of the public, at their discretion?

If they are the police, it is part of their job to know how to use acceptable force in a public nuisance situation. The public also has a right not to be attended to by "alleged" drunk, off-duty police officers with no understanding of professionalism and acceptable force. They also have a right to a fair and impartial investigation.

Neither professionalism nor impartiality are traits commonly associated with the Thai police, or as it seems, many expats.

[jumnien]

Well, this isn't a rape, so it shouldn't be compared to one, but even if it was, physical evidence is important as well as allegations. In this case, we have the astounding physical evidence of overwhelming, deadly force by an off-duty cop used on two unarmed, albeit, unruly members of the public.

We can't prove if he Uthai was drunk because he left; we only have second-hand accounts.

We can't prove if Reisig and Del Pinto hit the cop first, because this is also a second-hand account, and both first-hand accounts vary.

If they did hit or push the cop, does this warrant deadly force -- twice? This alleged offense anywhere else should have gotten them arrested and deported, but not killed. Did Reisig's story shift - yes; Did the cop's story shift - yes; Do they both have bad character references - yes;

Do cops have the right to execute unruly members of the public, at their discretion?

If they are the police, it is part of their job to know how to use acceptable force in a public nuisance situation. The public also has a right not to be attended to by "alleged" drunk, off-duty police officers with no understanding of professionalism and acceptable force. They also have a right to a fair and impartial investigation.

Neither professionalism nor impartiality are traits commonly associated with the Thai police, or as it seems, many expats.

Agree, 100%!

[kat]

Wow - that's a shocker of the year!

[Galong]

In this case, we have the astounding physical evidence of overwhelming, deadly force by an off-duty cop used on two unarmed, albeit, unruly members of the public.

We can't prove if he Uthai was drunk because he left; we only have second-hand accounts.

We can't prove if Reisig and Del Pinto hit the cop first, because this is also a second-hand account, and both first-hand accounts vary.

If they did hit or push the cop, does this warrant deadly force -- twice? This alleged offense anywhere else should have gotten them arrested and deported, but not killed. Did Reisig's story shift - yes; Did the cop's story shift - yes; Do they both have bad character references - yes;

Do cops have the right to execute unruly members of the public, at their discretion?

If they are the police, it is part of their job to know how to use acceptable force in a public nuisance situation. The public also has a right not to be attended to by "alleged" drunk, off-duty police officers with no understanding of professionalism and acceptable force. They also have a right to a fair and impartial investigation.

Neither professionalism nor impartiality are traits commonly associated with the Thai police, or as it seems, many expats.

Leaving the scene of the crime speaks volumes! Besides being extremely unprofessional, it eliminated the possibility of him being proven to be drunk. That alone is enough evidence to me to put his actions in question.

Is Uthai so weak that he couldn't defend himself against a woman without resorting to deadly force with a firearm? Why didn't he use muay Thai? Do cops carry mace? They should. Do they carry a billy club (stick)? They should. Did he have handcuffs with him? Couldn't he have yelled for help from the locals?

Why didn't he call for back-up if he wasn't sure if he could deal with a single female 'criminal'? What a pathetic excuse for a man. There is absolutely no excuse for using deadly force against a woman. Maybe she's a bodybuilder too in his eyes.

As the cops are doing the investigation and forensics, I fully expect this macho cop to get off scott free.

[grantbkk]

quik sum up then................they were drunk,cop was drunk.......some sort of altercation,drunk cop tries to kill them both.....succeeds on one count..then comes the cover up with help of his friends(cops).....canadian lady goes home......everything dies down.....cop moved to other station.........end of story.this is thailand!!!

moral of story.....we live in country that is corrupt therefore unless you come from a very rich family then there will be no justice for foreigners or poor unconnected thais, as to get them to do the right thing and punish the drunk cop for taking a young mans life then it will take many bribes to many people which would see him put inside maybe for a couple of months/years then he will be sneakily let out anyway!!!

i dont know if thailand can ever be uncorrupted...........money is god here.........not buddha!!!

Pretty much.... but one thing that bothers me, in the other case where the police officer who was succesfully convicted of murder and then seems to be let out and never actually did the time he was supposed to do (or did a tiny bit of it) what is the big problem here? I mean, why at all costs must a police officer NOT be punished? Was he really connected or rich? Or is there just no way a Thai policeman will ever be punished even for brutal murder? I'm asking the thoughts of people that might have some insight as I have no clue.

Also, does anyone know of any confirmed cases of police going to jail? And for how long and for what crime?

Damian

There is a very good reason that the Thai police are not usually punished for there indiscretions. The reason is not justified and I'm not going along with it so please don't kill the messenger (me).

The Thai police represent some 250,000 poorly trained, somewhat powerful individuals who see themselves as the "thin brown line" that holds back evil doers from committing atrocities against the weak and hi-so classes. Most at the lower level have little formal education in the western sense and they do exactly as they are told by their superiors. The police are not only quasi-military they are part of the feudal system here that keep the rank and file cops forever at that lower level and the higher ranks are filled through a patronage system. The system in place is quite lucrative as we all suspect and NO ONE in the upper levels of the police administration is going to rock the boat nor would one be allowed to.

Now if you look at the police as a "closed system" that cannot be threatened from within or without for fear of upsetting the balance of things you begin to understand why they protect their own at all costs. Very powerful people have ownership in this system and if it becomes threatened, history will show they close ranks and protect what is theirs. If the lower ranking officers are not protected from culpability or at the very least protected from jail and continue to receive a salary to feed the family, the system will breakdown. The police commanders must have the unwaivering support of the rank and file to sustain the cash flow and maintain the status quo. It is quite easy for the police to ride out the media storm by making moves we have all seen before. A quick arrest and the obligatory reassignment to an "inactive post". Additional action will be seen by the rank and file as a weakness in the command staff and the system will be in jeopardy. In their mind it is really a case of "us (police) versus them (anyone else).

[taxexile]

the gent

An extraordinary thread which is beginning to tell us more about the range of prejudice among posters than perhaps anything else.

I too was surprised by Drummond's correspondence to the newspaper. As far as I am aware he hasn't resorted to this tactic previously but then I suppose he hasn't encountered such poisonous drivel in the quantity that appears in this forum before and in penning his cri de coeur he was simply taking a swipe at the' expat resident ' redneck morons responsible.

Also, I suspect the odd attack upon his integrity, as exampled by Battyman (sic) and his simpering acolytes, is motivated by a malice born out of inferiority that cannot be assuaged elsewhere.

Just to emphasise the point, Drummond is a consummate professional riven with integrity and a compassion that raises him to a level many hacks can only aspire to. Anyone who knows him will attest to this and his reputation among his peers is deservedly high.

The issue under debate now seems to have shifted from the obvious culpability of the wretched policeman to the character of the surviving victim in much the same way as a rape victim's morality is scrutinised in a feeble attempt to shift the focus of blame from the rapist and is just as unedyfying. I have not the appetite to counter this disgraceful argument since its proponents seem beyond any reason and can only tip my hat to messrs Arkady,Damian and Boo among others whose stamina in keeping the flag of commonsense flying is one of the few redeeming features of the thread.

once you have sifted through the hyperbole , the metaphors , the idioms , the cliches and the adjectival overkill that are the gents trademark posting style , there exists a remarkably spot on post.

[Galong]

There is a very good reason that the Thai police are not usually punished for there indiscretions. The reason is not justified and I'm not going along with it so please don't kill the messenger (me).

The Thai police represent some 250,000 poorly trained, somewhat powerful individuals who see themselves as the "thin brown line" that holds back evil doers from committing atrocities against the weak and hi-so classes. Most at the lower level have little formal education in the western sense and they do exactly as they are told by their superiors. The police are not only quasi-military they are part of the feudal system here that keep the rank and file cops forever at that lower level and the higher ranks are filled through a patronage system. The system in place is quite lucrative as we all suspect and NO ONE in the upper levels of the police administration is going to rock the boat nor would one be allowed to.

Now if you look at the police as a "closed system" that cannot be threatened from within or without for fear of upsetting the balance of things you begin to understand why they protect their own at all costs. Very powerful people have ownership in this system and if it becomes threatened, history will show they close ranks and protect what is theirs. If the lower ranking officers are not protected from culpability or at the very least protected from jail and continue to receive a salary to feed the family, the system will breakdown. The police commanders must have the unwaivering support of the rank and file to sustain the cash flow and maintain the status quo. It is quite easy for the police to ride out the media storm by making moves we have all seen before. A quick arrest and the obligatory reassignment to an "inactive post". Additional action will be seen by the rank and file as a weakness in the command staff and the system will be in jeopardy. In their mind it is really a case of "us (police) versus them (anyone else).

I believe that you are spot-on in this analogy... unfortunately. In light of what you're saying here, I don't expect any downside for the brave Sir Uthai.

[geriatrickid]

.....In this case, we have the astounding physical evidence of overwhelming, deadly force by an off-duty cop used on two unarmed, albeit, unruly members of the public.

Umm, no you do not. The bullet wounds and associated trajectory will provide a clear indication of the position from which the weapon was discharged. The report hasn't been made public. For all we know, it could have been execution style discharge or it migth have been a discharge consistent with the policeman's story.

Unruly people have a bad habit of getting violent. Have you ever been faced with an unruly drunk that is in a violent way? They are not easy to control and can easily become violent. One doesn't know if the subjects were drunk or under the influence of drugs that may have altered their behaviours because the blood and body fluids analyses have not been made public. The subjects might very well have been sober or they could have been juiced up on yaba. There is no public evidence either way.

If they did hit or push the cop, does this warrant deadly force -- twice? This alleged offense anywhere else should have gotten them arrested and deported, but not killed. Did Reisig's story shift - yes; Did the cop's story shift - yes; Do they both have bad character references - yes;

Unfortunately, if the police officer can demonstrate that his life was in danger, he can justify the use of deadly force. If the implicated injured and deceased parties have a history of violence (which must be established in fact and not from TV statements) then that provides evidence of a history of violence supporting the policeman's case.

Neither professionalism nor impartiality are traits commonly associated with the Thai police, or as it seems, many expats.

You are allowing your emotions to prejudice your view of the situation and are as guilty of the same faults as those that you accuse.

I have a strong feeling that the forensic evidence will make this an even more tragic event and will show events to be significantly different than what most people are assuming happened. I have my own assessment of events and the most likely explanation, but will remain quiet. However, folks may wish to go back and read the reports of the deceased's activities and wound positions again and think of their own experiences in bars when people have been drinking.

[Canadianvisitor]

On top of that you expect us to believe that in Canada there are no regional biases....

Now we know you are from Ontario for sure eh? C'mon Jeff there are at least five Canadians contributing to this thread. What are you trying to defend?

BTW, I think ThaiGene is one of them Canucks.

An extraordinary thread which is beginning to tell us more about the range of prejudice among posters than perhaps anything else.

I too was surprised by Drummond's correspondence to the newspaper. As far as I am aware he hasn't resorted to this tactic previously but then I suppose he hasn't encountered such poisonous drivel in the quantity that appears in this forum before and in penning his cri de coeur he was simply taking a swipe at the' expat resident ' redneck morons responsible.

Also, I suspect the odd attack upon his integrity, as exampled by Battyman (sic) and his simpering acolytes, is motivated by a malice born out of inferiority that cannot be assuaged elsewhere.

Just to emphasise the point, Drummond is a consummate professional riven with integrity and a compassion that raises him to a level many hacks can only aspire to. Anyone who knows him will attest to this and his reputation among his peers is deservedly high.

The issue under debate now seems to have shifted from the obvious culpability of the wretched policeman to the character of the surviving victim in much the same way as a rape victim's morality is scrutinised in a feeble attempt to shift the focus of blame from the rapist and is just as unedyfying. I have not the appetite to counter this disgraceful argument since its proponents seem beyond any reason and can only tip my hat to messrs Arkady,Damian and Boo among others whose stamina in keeping the flag of commonsense flying is one of the few redeeming features of the thread.

[LoveDaBlues]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

It's not relevant because cops deal with drunks on a regular basis. It's a huge part of the job description. Shooting an unarmed female with a near-fatal shot is not how drunks are dealt with; in Thailand or the UK or the States.

[canuckamuck]

Canadianvisitor: I see, you quoted me and another completley unrelated post.

great work. The next step for you to try is to make some sort of point. It really helps move things along.

Edited January 14, 2008 by canuckamuck

[Journalist]

I think what is called for is an official press release from Lonely Planet guru Joe Cummings, spokesman and darling of teenage SE Asian backpackers.

[kat]

Neither professionalism nor impartiality are traits commonly associated with the Thai police, or as it seems, many expats.

You are allowing your emotions to prejudice your view of the situation and are as guilty of the same faults as those that you accuse.

Nope, you're wrong here, and this is the only one of your statements that I disagree with 100%.

[SiriusBlack1]

Apologies if this has already been posted. From the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/01/12/...-del-pinto.html

Body of man killed in Thailand returned to Calgary

Last Updated: Saturday, January 12, 2008 | 9:40 PM ET

CBC News

The body of a Calgary man shot and killed in a northern Thai town was returned to Canada on Saturday.

Leo Del Pinto, 24, died after being shot in the face, allegedly by a police officer, on Jan. 6 in the town of Pai.

Leo Del Pinto, shown in an undated family photo, was shot in the torso and face in northern Thailand. Leo Del Pinto, shown in an undated family photo, was shot in the torso and face in northern Thailand.

(Canadian Press)

His friend, Carly Reisig, of Chilliwack, B.C., was also injured and is still in a Thai hospital recovering from a gunshot wound to her chest.

Family lawyer Adriano Iovinelli said the Del Pintos are relieved their son's body is finally home, but are frustrated with how Canada's Foreign Affairs Department has handled the case.

They accuse Canadian officials of not providing enough information or support, Iovinelli said.

"It's been very difficult for them. Not only are they grieving their son but they are also searching for answers from Foreign Affairs and so far they haven't received much," he said.

Continue Article

Iovenelli said he's worried that Del Pinto will become "just another Canadian killed abroad."

There was no immediate response from the Department of Foreign Affairs about the complaints.

Del Pinto's remains were transferred directly to the coroner's office where an autopsy is scheduled for Monday morning, Iovenelli said.

The family hopes to have a funeral by late next week.

A Thai police officer has been charged with premeditated murder in the shooting death of Del Pinto and with intent to kill in the wounding of Reisig. He was released on bail.

With files from the Canadian Press

[Stephen Cleary]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

It's not relevant because cops deal with drunks on a regular basis. It's a huge part of the job description. Shooting an unarmed female with a near-fatal shot is not how drunks are dealt with; in Thailand or the UK or the States.

Of course, it is absolutely relevant and to say it is not, is absurd. You could compare it to posters here dismissing evidence of 'a history of violence' for a guy suspected of killing his wife.

As for Lovedeblues, sure Thai police are used to dealing with drunks. But, they are not used to being attacked by a huge drunk Farang woman and probably her ex-boyfriend. Looks like the guy shot in self defense and got carried away. Sure, he deserves to be incarcerated. Same as the Farang woman deserves to be booted out of the Kingdom.

Again, for anyone to say that police do not use violence against drunks in Farangland is absurd - especially in The US.

If you are pissed in The US and get loud with the cops then you will be on the receiving end of a taser gun. Even those these things often kill, the the US cops still commonly use them.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Stephen Cleary

[Claymore]

Thanks to a poster, I believe by the name of 'sabaijai', who is actually on the scene. Don't worry about running into Andrew Drummond there, because you won't. He is a lazy telephone journalist.

I look forward to hearing more of the REAL version of things going on there from people like Sabaijai, and I hope the rest of you are able to put a grip on your paranoia as farangs for long enough to get a good dose of the truth.

end quote

Andrew Drummond is currently on his telephone in Manila I understand so he he has moved from his alleged sedentary position.

Sabajai is happily quoting off duty cops willingly admit that Uthai was drunk on the night of question. No surprise here. Of course nobody is scared to talk in the bars and pubs. Its the major issue of the year for Pai people. The point is are Mr. Sabai Jai's cops going to give evidence in court. Dont think Sabaijai is going to put any money on this and that is the only place it counts at the end of the day. Sabaijai shd have taped the conversation. Drummond has not said people are running around quaking in fear. Might they be however if they listed themselves as prosecution witnesses against Uthai.