^ Whilst hearing what you say, the lurking question I've never seen an answer to is did the officer, apparently out of uniform identify himself as a police officer? I know officers here who always carry their 'warrant card' and quickly put in around their neck on a lanyard specifically to identify themselves. My instinct here, which may be wrong, is that he didn't identify himself effectively and that this led to confusion. I may of course be in error, but it would reconcile some of the rough edges in the inevitably disparate descriptions of events.

Regards

/edit PS In other words we all know he's a policeman now, did the victims at the time?

/edit PPS This of course ignores the issue that a police officer should be held to a higher standard of behaviour in such a situation than a civilian.

Edited January 22, 200818 yr by A_Traveller

Gaz, let me simplify my point so it's even more clear: we are responsible for our own behaviour. For every action there is a consequence. Yes, sometimes bad things happen to good people.Those events are usually beyond one's control. However, one must not leave common sense and self control at the airport when entering Thailand. We have a habit of always needing to lay blame for our actions rather than to say, hey, you know, my actions had a role in the bad events. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, merely saying that when one has to realize that the foundation for tragedy was laid earlier in the evening. . This is called risk analysis and some people lead lives that increase personal risk. Not a nice thing to read, I know, but that is how it is seen by people in my line of work, and so far no one has been questioning the concept since folks regularly accept the projected lives saved or lost from auto design changes, lifestyle changes, etc.

And I am certainly not saying anyone's life is less wrthy than another's. On the contrary, the point is that life is valuable and we must conduct ourselves to protect the life.

G-kid

I agree we all have to take responsibility for our own actions, and we all subconciously keep in mind that the extent of acceptable actions ingrained into each of us is a product of where and how we were raised, and what we learned we could get away with, compounded by later experience (as adults) of what else we can get away with. That cumulative and iterative learning experience sets the rough boundary that we know we must stay within - it is why some people are aggressive anti-socials permanently, whilst others are occasional pain in the arris drunks.

Our social education determines how publicly we are willing to push those boundaries, and when and where, and under what circumstances - this is why some people are quiet and mild conflict avoiders, while others are loud and gregarious entertainers, or nuisances, depending on the nature of their loudness, and why each of us has a switch that causes us to act out of character. The activator for that switch is different for everyone, and the personality change varies from person to person.

Carly's much discussed previous antics lay a case that she had a belief she could abuse Thai hospitality (and policemen) and get away with it, yet the re-enactment shows her 15 yards back up the road - when faced with a gun-toting local, did her aggression vapourise and make her back away rapidly? (or did Leo and Uthai's struggle push them up the road by that distance away from her?.

Uthai's critics lay a case for him pulling his gun and (ab)using his employment's authority and getting away with it, whilst his advocates claim he was not a man of violence (probably never had to be wearing a uniform and toting a gun) therefore his experience was that he opened his mouth and people obeyed. When confronted by "opponents" who couldn't give a flying stuff if he was a cop or not, he used the weapon for it's manufactured purpose - accidently or deliberately (the latter seeming more likely from the CBC clip in my view) and thus we have this discussion and tragedy.

It's less than a generation ago that police brutality and prejudice allegations triggered massive race riots in the UK (yes, in the wimpy, roll over and play dead UK), and in the US - cops videotaped beating the living khrap out of a coloured and then being aquitted, caused a large part of a major US city to go up in flames. Look what's happening in central African & Micronesian states right now because of very similar stories. It's only 2 years ago that Marseilles (in France) erupted over similar incidents.

side topic - a decade of so back I read a science fiction book called "World in Winter" where due to global warming, the polar ice caps melted and by suppressing the warm Gulf Stream caused an ice age in North America and Europe (the scientific hypothesis is valid). A couple of billion caucasians fled to the warmer countries, where they became the white niggers to the darker skinned indegenes. My son is now 3 months old, but I have both read and watched increasingly regular reports that such an event is going to happen in his lifetime - how will Thai cops cope if the entire populace is outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 by disenfranchised aliens & farangs permanently within their borders? (Remember much of the Central Plains and southern peninsula will also be under water at that time - much shrinking Thailand's habitable land area).

One thing is certain - under that scenario, incidents like Pai will then result in something far more threatening than a 1000+ thread on Thai Visa. Thailand needs to be cross-culturally training and increasing the professionalism of their peacekeepers NOW, in order to be ready for the predicted Environmental Migration (which in this region will probably be triggered by Bangladesh going permanently under water according to the UN) - they certainly are in no way capable of handling it right now..... they seem to struggle enough to handle an average 1 million tourists per month and understand their needs and wants - and tourists are INVITED guests, a category that implies you are ready and willing to cater for their cultural and other needs. Environmental migrants will not be, nor will they be stoppable (as the Northern hill tribes have proven for the last century and more).

Having watched that CBC news clipping that covered the funeral and crime scene re-enactment...

Here is a link to the CBC video.

Thanks for the video link Jai Dee. Wonder if this would ever be picked up and shown on Thai News......

I can't download the CBC video clip for whatever reason.

It is working, but it is a windows media player file so you have problems if the player is not set-up correctly on your pc. It is also not downloadable, only streaming.

Regards

We have to forget about this shocking case. Nothing much is goin' to happen soon. The Thai police - as we all know - are totally corrupt.

My wife saw this story reported on Thai TV the day after the incident - and the story was very biased in favour of the Thai police officer. It basically reported that he acted in self defence and that the two unfortunate victims were fighting publicly. He intervened as a good public citizen - and no mention was made of him initially striking Carly.

He was attacked - and in the line of duty - and had to shoot from the ground up. They also mentioned that one of the victims was into extreme fighting!

99 per cent of the Thai populace formed their opinion on this case from this extremely biased report - even though what was reported was essentailly a load of crap!

They love us!

Already, we've determined that an execution took place. I'd guess some beligerent tourists insulted the wrong Thai guy. He may or may not have been a cop, doesn't much matter now does it. Lesson learned: drink lots of water, walk slowly and respect the local population. Funny, works just about everywhere.

Did not take long for the thai apologists did it?

The victim is now the guilty?

Stick to trying to find work for 2 year olds as your sense of morality is lost!

Hmmm ok whatever,

But what we have here so far is some unconfirmed (although believable) report.

If, and its still an If, 2 drunk tourists faced off with a drunk Thai with a gun, then what on earth do you expect the result to be?

It could happen anywhere. Tragic all around if true, but no need for anybody to jump on their high horse

Yes i agree - whilst expressing compassion and regretful sadness for the unfortunate victims, who perhaps didnt know as much about the dangers and the no-nos of livving here.

Of course it isnt their own fault and the victims are still victims.The guilty ones also still guilty.But yes you still are correct in your opinion that staying away from problems in Thailand is the best way to live longer.

you make a valid point but this does not detract from the fact that what happened is atrocious and unfair.

just because you never mentioned regret for the victims doesnt mean you dont feel regret, so you dont need to find work for two year olds in my opinion, although i do understand the indignation ot he other person commenting/quoting.

one should not assume, however, that you dont feel regret and have no morals; you just chose to deal with another facet of the topic instead of simply expressing sadness and disgust.

Whether the victims should have known better or not depends on how much experience they have in thailand.

thats as objective as i can think.

We have to forget about this shocking case. Nothing much is goin' to happen soon. The Thai police - as we all know - are totally corrupt.

The Thai police, as an institution are corrupt, but not all Thai police are corrupt. Corruption follows the money trail, and like money corruption percolates upwards and not, as Thatcher and Reagan would have had you erroneously believe about money, trickle downwards. The fact that the Thai National Police, as an institution are corrupt as yet tells us nothing about this particular incident.

We have to forget about this shocking case.

I would argue by the same premises you use in your post, we have to not forget.

Well, it's Wednesday here now, and no word from the news agencies regarding the (full) autopsy report. In all fairness to them, I'm not sure they can actually get the report without going through the Freedom of Information act, something they are not likely to bother with unless there is a lot more pressure from the public.

(Note: from the Alberta Justcice Department website: Access to autopsy reports is granted to an adult next of kin, to anyone who has written authorization from a next of kin, or to anyone who the Chief Medical Examiner finds to be an interested party.)

So the toxicology report and other information will probably stay filed away until the case goes to court, and may not even get discussed there depending on how things go.

We have to forget about this shocking case. Nothing much is goin' to happen soon. The Thai police - as we all know - are totally corrupt.

My wife saw this story reported on Thai TV the day after the incident - and the story was very biased in favour of the Thai police officer. It basically reported that he acted in self defence and that the two unfortunate victims were fighting publicly. He intervened as a good public citizen - and no mention was made of him initially striking Carly.

Note that the only person saying Uthai struck first is Carly, and without any corroborating testimony as far as I know.

We have to forget about this shocking case. Nothing much is goin' to happen soon. The Thai police - as we all know - are totally corrupt.

My wife saw this story reported on Thai TV the day after the incident - and the story was very biased in favour of the Thai police officer. It basically reported that he acted in self defence and that the two unfortunate victims were fighting publicly. He intervened as a good public citizen - and no mention was made of him initially striking Carly.

Note that the only person saying Uthai struck first is Carly, and without any corroborating testimony as far as I know.

There are three witnesses corroborating Carly's version. Carly's boyfriend and two others. They are not in the public domain as yet that is all.

There are two witnesses corroborating Uthai's version, plus scores who are reporting this version second hand either from gossip in Pai or from Thai TV.

The more I read here, and the more I think about it, the more I start wondering if perhaps things didn't happen somewhat differently than what Ms Reisig claims.

Some people don't think her (self-admitted) past behaviour has relevance (but on the other hand, Uthai's past behaviour does ?). I think it has relevance, and I'm sure it will come out in court that this is a person who (in the past) has admitted to striking a police officer, and appears to have a reputation for being drunk and disorderly.

So, when thinking about this, I started wondering. What if you were confronted by an authority figure, and acted in a manner similar to what you have admitted to doing in the past. What if, instead of "getting away with it", this time the authority figure struck back, and this lead to an ugly confrontation in which your friend is killed and you are shot.

Would you admit to having started the confrontation ? Knowing that people would blame you for your friends death, and that you could face possible prosecution for starting the confrontation in the first place ?

Or would you try to come up with an alternative version of events that would make you appear to be the victim ?

Two things that stick in my mind. One being a police officer, even a drunk one, randomly walking up to a farang couple and punching the women in the face for no apparent reason.

(note in the Pattaya news clippings forum, the story about 3 Estonians who allegedly picked a fight with some Thai guys, and suddenly found themselves facing about 15 Thai guys. There are numerous references in that thread about how Thais never seem to fight one-on-one, even when drunk. Yet in this case, the officer (allegedly) walked up to a group of 2 farangs and 1 Thai, and started the confrontation by striking the woman in the face for no reason ? Sure maybe he was "empowered" by the fact he is a policeman and had a weapon (either on his person or on his motorbike), but it still seems highly unlikey that he would just walk up and strike her in the face).

Second thing. About the one and only thing we've heard from the person who should have been in a position to see everything (Fuen):

Sitting by her bed was her boyfriend Rattaporn Vara-wadee, an artist nicknamed Fuen.

He said: "Nothing we did gave this man the right to take lives.

So what exactly did "they" do ?

I don't know, but I'm starting to have a sneaky suspicion that we are going to hear a whole different version of what happened that night, once this actually gets to court.

That is, if we hear anything at all.

A bit long for that conclusion, I stated that about 3 km back here.

But I agree.

maxi

We have to forget about this shocking case. Nothing much is goin' to happen soon. The Thai police - as we all know - are totally corrupt.

My wife saw this story reported on Thai TV the day after the incident - and the story was very biased in favour of the Thai police officer. It basically reported that he acted in self defence and that the two unfortunate victims were fighting publicly. He intervened as a good public citizen - and no mention was made of him initially striking Carly.

Note that the only person saying Uthai struck first is Carly, and without any corroborating testimony as far as I know.

There are three witnesses corroborating Carly's version. Carly's boyfriend and two others. They are not in the public domain as yet that is all.

There are two witnesses corroborating Uthai's version, plus scores who are reporting this version second hand either from gossip in Pai or from Thai TV.

As we know from past cases, the chances of sane Thais, who have any concerns for the safety of themselves or their loved ones, testifying against the police in a murder case are slim. Enumerating witnesses pro or, against the parties is thus rather meaningless, as is discussion of bad behavior and errors of judgment committed in the past both by Carly and Uthai.

If Carly did indeed initiate the struggle by shoving or hitting Uthai, was he justified in pulling out the gun that he most likely carried illegally and using it to kill Leo and nearly kill Carly? Did he have good reason to believe that Carly and/or Leo were about to kill him or some one else nearby? Would Leo have tried to grab the gun, if Uthai had not pulled the thing out in the first place? Did Leo know that Uthai was a policeman? Were any or all of the shots really fired by accident? Can Uthai's defense produce convincing forensic evidence to prove his story? Will either the prosecutor or the judge care whether the forensic evidence makes sense or not?

I think these questions are more relevant than making a case that Carly brought the shootings on herself and her friend through prior bad behavior and a volatile temperament that is clearly incompatible with Thai culture, particularly in a woman.

Arkady puts in perspective when he asks rhetorically, "Will either the prosecutor or the judge care whether the forensic evidence makes sense or not?"

The answer is a resounding 'no'. The Thai justice system will do all it can to clear the cop of a conviction that would warrant the death penalty or a long time in jail.

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

The video was sad but thanks for the link JD

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

Having watched that CBC news clipping that covered the funeral and crime scene re-enactment...

Here is a link to the CBC video.

At least Uthai and Carly agree on one thing, that there was a struggle for control of the gun.

I think there comes a point when anyone who has been following these ad nauseum "serial apologist posters" realizes that there simply can be no realsitic motivation for anyone with anything better to do than sit here and constantly defend the Thai policeman and his motives - especially in light of what appears to be pretty damning evidence to the contrary.

Still, I'm glad to see the Moderators have allowed this thread to continue - cause it ensures this case won't disappear easily as long as people keep posting. Well done, guys!

As we know from past cases, the chances of sane Thais, who have any concerns for the safety of themselves or their loved ones, testifying against the police in a murder case are slim. Enumerating witnesses pro or, against the parties is thus rather meaningless, as is discussion of bad behavior and errors of judgment committed in the past both by Carly and Uthai.

Well of course you are basically right again. Cases like this tend to be decided beforehand in court. Much will depend on how far the Canadian Embassy push this. But an interesting point regarding witnesses is the courts do take all these statements and the proceedings are very much by 'rote'. There is little court banter as in 'Come off it Khun Ning, do you really expect us to believe that?' etc. Very often different judges sit on different days of the court, so there is little judgment as to what attitude the witness had. Purely Q and A. It still helps to have witnesses and as many as possible.

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

Very true. They are present and active in all criminal sectors.

Reminds me, we haven't hear for a long time from our friend BackPackThailand who actually sat in court when the Kanchanaburi cop got his circus act of a trial. His last post shows July 2004???

*He was banned? His posts relating what he saw in court are gone too...

Edited January 23, 200818 yr by Tony Clifton

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

I agree with Briggsy 100%. How does Khun? know for sure that it was Carly's conduct that provoked the incident? Even if it was and she started the scuffle by hitting Uthai, he escalated the situation to a lethal degree by pulling an illegally carried gun on them. His actions would be construed as murder in a civilized jurisdiction, if he couldn't prove the three accidental discharges as he claims, and probably manslaughter plus many more years in prison for firearms offences, even if he could. Thailand has an ancient civilization and and its people are generally friendly, gentle and respect human life due to their Buddhist faith. The reason that it is not a civilised jurisdiction is because of the systemic corruption of the police force and the public prosecution service, as well as the weakness and the ineffective structures and systems of the judiciary. The vast majority of Thai people want and deserve fair and transparent law enforcement and justice system but it stays as it is because it serves the vested interests of corrupt politicians who couldn't care less about the people they represent.

BTW according to what law do the police have authority to tell people to leave town?

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

Very true. They are present and active in all criminal sectors.

Reminds me, we haven't hear for a long time from our friend BackPackThailand who actually sat in court when the Kanchanaburi cop got his circus act of a trial. His last post shows July 2004???

*He was banned? His posts relating what he saw in court are gone too...

Was that the guy who was given death threats openly by the Kanchanaburi police and was chased by them from the court house while riding his motor bike but managed to escape by riding into an army base where an army captain who hated the police sheltered him?

I believe the assumption that off duty police are not allowed to carry weapons is not correct.

Even in Farangland off duty cops have weapons in their vehicles or person.

I am mainly going by her different statements made, and of what people have witnessed before on her behavior.

Must of been some freak show going on for a while from what was reported in the middle of drugland Thailand.

I do not know many or any that have attacked police officers and being told to leave town before this.

Wonder why the complete autopsy from the Canadians has not been released yet. Might there be

drug use involved? Wonder what drugs if so..... like YABA

Surely this report must be treated as rumour - I have seen nothing official as yet - and thus treat it as gossip.

"Offical" in thai press is the same as saying non corrupt in thai politics A MYTH

I believe the assumption that off duty police are not allowed to carry weapons is not correct.

Even in Farangland off duty cops have weapons in their vehicles or person.

I am mainly going by her different statements made, and of what people have witnessed before on her behavior.

Must of been some freak show going on for a while from what was reported in the middle of drugland Thailand.

I do not know many or any that have attacked police officers and being told to leave town before this.

Wonder why the complete autopsy from the Canadians has not been released yet. Might there be

drug use involved? Wonder what drugs if so..... like YABA

I cannot quote the law on this but I believe that Thai police are not allowed to carry concealed weapons off duty and out of uniform, unless they are licensed to do so. I was once told by local police when collecting paperwork for a gun permit that they themselves were not allowed to carry guns in this way because they had no reason to. They told me that only plain clothes officers working in units that deal with dangerous criminals had this right. I have seen reports of police being charged with illegally carrying a firearm and ammunition off duty after a shoot out between rival police gangs (a rare case where the police have to break their unwritten rule to protect all their own at all costs). In the US concealed carry permits in many states and counties are relatively easy to obtain for most citizens with clean records these days. So it stands to reason that police there are allowed to carry concealed weapons off duty. But concealed carry permits in Thailand are much more tightly controlled, even though the law is widely ignored by those that believe they can get away with it. Cops in the UK are certainly not generally allowed to carry guns around on or off duty. Even the armed response units cannot carry weapons on their person unless they are responding to an official alert. European countries are all different too. I think your Farangland comment applied to the US only. For more information on the Thai legal situation, please contact the police firearms licensing department in Lard Prao and let us know the result of your call.

I still think your implied guilty judgment of Carly based on hearsay reports of her behavior or the way she looks is unhelpful in this context. The issue is not whether she is some one you would like to welcome into your circle of friends but whether she was a victim of attempted murder and Leo of murder. Police should be well disciplined and trained to react appropriately to many types of stressful situation. Unfortunately this is not the case in Thailand but it doesn't necessarily make their countless unfortunate victims the guilty parties, whether you might have wanted to invited them into your living room or not.

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

Very true. They are present and active in all criminal sectors.

Reminds me, we haven't hear for a long time from our friend BackPackThailand who actually sat in court when the Kanchanaburi cop got his circus act of a trial. His last post shows July 2004???

*He was banned? His posts relating what he saw in court are gone too...

Backpack Thailand was banned over a completely different issue.

If you have concerns regarding forum rules or moderation actions, please feel free to send me a PM or an e-mail to support[at]thaivisa[dot]com .

This thread is about the Pai shootings. Please remain on topic.

... in a civilised jurisdiction ...

Indeed. But to say that it doesn't matter what the victim's behaviour here in Thailand was because 'in a civilised jurisdiction' it wouldn't matter doesn't go very far in explaining why the events unfolded the way they did.

Most of the posts in this thread can be divided between two perspectives, one that recognises the Thai context for this tragedy, and one that applies a non-Thai - specifically a Western, developed-world - context.

This isn't 'making excuses', it's trying to understand how this could happen. If we don't understand all the ramifications and causative factors, remote as well as proximate, we aren't making things any safer for the next foreigner who potentially antagonises (whether intentionally or unintentionally) Thai law enforcement. (Yes the jury is still out on whether that was the case here but there are strong indications it was, for now.)

It really doesn't matter who is 'right' in a global sense, if you're trying to prevent future incidents such as this.

Awareness needs raising on both sides. Whatever the legal outcome of the case is, let's hope everyone -- yes, especially Thai police culture -- learns a few things that can be put into practice so as to prevent future incidents of the kind. And if Thai police cannot be or will not be educated on this point, then at least foreign residents and visitors may gain a further understanding, perhaps even to the point of saving someone's life some day.

guess it took the death of friend from a wacked out girl to get her to leave town as she was

told to do before. So sad the whole situation and her conduct took it to such extremes.

I would add that it is even sadder that the Thai Police murder people week in week out. I'm not just referring to this case but the daily grind of 15-40 murders that happen in the Kingdom (take your pick of the dubious statistics) and how many of those were carried out by the Police either in uniform or as a sideline or were pre-approved to avoid any serious investigation.

Very true. They are present and active in all criminal sectors.

Reminds me, we haven't hear for a long time from our friend BackPackThailand who actually sat in court when the Kanchanaburi cop got his circus act of a trial. His last post shows July 2004???

*He was banned? His posts relating what he saw in court are gone too...

Backpack Thailand was banned over a completely different issue.

If you have concerns regarding forum rules or moderation actions, please feel free to send me a PM or an e-mail to support[at]thaivisa[dot]com .

This thread is about the Pai shootings. Please remain on topic.

I don't know what happened to him either...But the other issues here is "Contempt of Court" - this is something that chills journalists in the West too - but here in Thailand, you CANNOT speak ill of the judgement of the court. The court rules, you shut up, you don't dare speculate on reasons for the ruling and you sure don't suggest the judges are anything other than pure as the driven snow - of course it never snows here - but there you are. Again I don't know why he was banned but certainly do be warned...if your main reason for being here is to STAY here.

having said ALL that - you need to ask yourself whether the right evidence will ever emerge in the way it would in the West. And if it doesn't? Then what? You think someone is going to "appeal" to a higher court like this was the USA becuase the prosecution didn't argue this or that? Sure! Right after we all go out for Som Tam...and tell the poo-yai how great he is!

Edited January 24, 200818 yr by Maestro
Deleted comment that is in violation of forum rules - Maestro