Dowry In Rural Issan

[Iambabababor]

Great source, 'Stickman' Do you actually believe he's an authority on Thai culture?

Iambabababor, After reading through your posts it appears you have a hugh chip on your shoulder and are a bit cynical in your quest to demeaner and demolish Thai traditions (living up to your forum name).

I never attributed the history of sin sot to Stickman, but merely indicated that was where I read it.

I have no chips on my shoulder whatsoever. I have an opinion on most things, like most people, and in a forum such as this I express my opinion on topics that interest me. I do not follow tradition and beliefs just for the sake of it. I am not a sheep that just follows the herd. I am a FREETHINKER! Obviously you do not share my opinion on sit sot - so be it. But it would seem that that you are one of these people that believes your opinion has to be shared by everyone, and anyone disagreeing with you is an idiot. Just look at many of the problems in the world today, largely caused by powerful people who try to impose their views and wishes on others.

Like many other farangs I disagree entirely with sin sot. Quite apart from the financial problems it frequently causes (especially to Thai couples), It is to me just a simple case of buying one's wife. And to amplify this view, my wife, shortly before I met her, received word from her mother that she had to return home as an offer of 60,000bt + 2 baht of gold had been received and accepted by her. And the 2 had never even met! My wife refused point blank and that was when she decided that no dowry would be paid if and when she got married.

[chuckd]

I married three years ago and told my prospective wife (previously married, 1 child) that I would not pay the dowry and would not spring for a big village wedding. I would take care of her in other ways.

She is now sporting ten baht in gold and we have just finished our house up-country on nearly two rai. House cost 2.2 mil.

I did sponsor the tamboon for the new house so the villagers will learn what a catch she made.

[Neeranam]

Stickman IS an authority on Thailand amongst the backpackers and short time English teachers. I've read his early stuff ND HE HASN'T CLUE - nice felow though.

[Neeranam]

I married three years ago and told my prospective wife (previously married, 1 child) that I would not pay the dowry and would not spring for a big village wedding. I would take care of her in other ways.

She is now sporting ten baht in gold and we have just finished our house up-country on nearly two rai. House cost 2.2 mil.

I did sponsor the tamboon for the new house so the villagers will learn what a catch she made.

Dangerous time for you - house just finished - I hope you don't have life insurance!

[Iambabababor]

Over the past few years I have provided very cheap loans to a number of my neighbours, to enable them to marry the girl of their choice. The local loan sharks would have 5%+ a month! Most of these men would be regarded as manual workers in the west, mainly working on building sites for around 200bt a day.The dowries they were expected to provide together with the cost of the required gold trinkets usually ran to 100,000bt+. Yet despite the girls greedy families knowing of the couples love for each other, they would insist on these outrageous payments, knowing also that both would have to work work work for many years just to pay off the loans. What a start to marriage!

Would we Westerners allow our daughters to marry under such conditions? Would we sit idly by, with our new motorcycles, televisions etc, knowing that our daughters' were working for 12+ hours a day, almost every day with no end in sight, just to make ends meet so that we could gain face amongst the community. I doubt it very much. We would be happy for them that they had found love. We would try and help them where possible. We would be pleased that they could have a nice home, and maybe get on the first rung of the housing ladder. But here it's mainly about self. I want I want!

Some of you will agree with me and some not. That's what this forum is all about. putting across one's point of view, and listening to other peoples views in a calm and collected way.

[Iambabababor]

I married three years ago and told my prospective wife (previously married, 1 child) that I would not pay the dowry and would not spring for a big village wedding. I would take care of her in other ways.

Good on you. That's how it should be. Family (you wife and kids) No 1. Not giving the parents unwarranted face and satisfying the wishes of the villagers, by wining and dining them with never a word of thanks.

[chuckd]

I married three years ago and told my prospective wife (previously married, 1 child) that I would not pay the dowry and would not spring for a big village wedding. I would take care of her in other ways.

She is now sporting ten baht in gold and we have just finished our house up-country on nearly two rai. House cost 2.2 mil.

I did sponsor the tamboon for the new house so the villagers will learn what a catch she made.

Dangerous time for you - house just finished - I hope you don't have life insurance!

Thank you for your concern about my well being. I will rest easier tonight knowing you cared.

[Iambabababor]

I've been to countless weddings over the past twenty years, mostly Thai to Thai and I've never seen the absence of sid sod, never. I've also never seen it given back to the couple except one time to help the couple get set up in business.

On another note, when a couple here does get separated or divorced the wife doesn't take 'everything' like most do in the west.

Here in Isaan it is the same. (I see you are predominantly from the south) All Thai men pay dowries. I too have never seen it not paid, and like you I have never seen it returned. Yet I am reliably told that in many other parts of Thailand, especially the larger city areas, once face has been gained, the money is returned. So why is Isaan so different? 1), because families here are mainly poor,and see it as a way to suddenly become wealthy (relatively speaking) and 2) because so many Isaan village people live totally blinkered lives, not knowing what is going on outside their own little fifedoms - some never having travelled beyond the nearest amphur! They will be performing all of their various quaint (and costly) non beneficial rituals for centuries to come.

And as for the wife not taking everything when a couple separates or divorces - of course not. In most cases there is nothing to take just debts to repay!

[JRinger]

I've been to countless weddings over the past twenty years, mostly Thai to Thai and I've never seen the absence of sid sod, never. I've also never seen it given back to the couple except one time to help the couple get set up in business.

On another note, when a couple here does get separated or divorced the wife doesn't take 'everything' like most do in the west.

Here in Isaan it is the same. (I see you are predominantly from the south) travelled beyond the nearest amphur! They will be performing all of their various quaint (and costly) non beneficial rituals for centuries to come.

And as for the wife not taking everything when a couple separates or divorces - of course not. In most cases there is nothing to take just debts to repay!

Why would you assume I'm from the south? perhaps for the same reason you assume Sin Sod is just a sleazy way of sucking money from rich farang?

I've seen Thai's give more SinSod than most farangs although I do have a Danish friend who gave his would-be-mother-in-law 1 million but it was pocket change for him, and I think, after reading through the posts that this is the bottom line. The one's who have plenty don't mind sharing it with their new family. Those who don't will make up every excuse to avoid giving anything. I've also witnessed wealthy Chinese Thai's give millions.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the way things are here. You've been here a long time but you still carry Britain on your back like it's going to change things here. You almost remind me of a young fellow a few years back, I think his forum name was pugamelon. He was so sure that 'we' farangs could change things here, mainly to suit our conditioning. .. Maybe I was wrong about you having a chip on your shoulder, you seem like a well balanced man having two chips...one on each shoulder after your recent divorce and all......It took me several years to relax and just enjoy the way things are. All your advice and resistance to "the Thai way" on this forum isn't going to matter one bit in the real scheme of things but if it makes you feel better trying to convince others of your beliefs there are certainly many naive viewers who will listen to your bitterness and try and find a girl with no family to have to give to. If your cynisism and bitterness is a result from your recent divorce then I guess it's understandable but not all of us here in the Kingdom share your beliefs. Your statement in one of your posts, "Thai's are a strange breed" says a lot about you and your inability to adapt. Do you think it's possible that Isaan people are the way they are because most have little to no education? They are some of the hardest working people I've ever know and rarely complain even though they have very little. Not all are "drunks and gambler's" as you've stated in a previous post.

It's just unfortunate Thai people (or probably most people) can't live up to your expectations....

Edited January 12, 2008 by JRinger

[Iambabababor]

Why would you assume I'm from the south?

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the way things are here. . Maybe I was wrong about you having a chip on your shoulder, you seem like a well balanced man having two chips...one on each shoulder after your recent divorce and all......I

[/quote

From your own profile.... Location: Phuket, Samui, Bkk, N.Y that's why!

I accept the ways some things are - I don't necessarily like them. But since I am never directly involved it is no problem for me. I just consider that changing outdated customs would be better for the Thai people. Just a viewpoint.

And as for your comments about a recent divorce - maybe you are confusing me with someone else. I have not had a recent divorce nor am I planning one

No further comments to make.

[lukey1979]

I've been to countless weddings over the past twenty years, mostly Thai to Thai and I've never seen the absence of sid sod, never. I've also never seen it given back to the couple except one time to help the couple get set up in business.

On another note, when a couple here does get separated or divorced the wife doesn't take 'everything' like most do in the west.

Here in Isaan it is the same. (I see you are predominantly from the south) All Thai men pay dowries. I too have never seen it not paid, and like you I have never seen it returned. Yet I am reliably told that in many other parts of Thailand, especially the larger city areas, once face has been gained, the money is returned. So why is Isaan so different? 1), because families here are mainly poor,and see it as a way to suddenly become wealthy (relatively speaking) and 2) because so many Isaan village people live totally blinkered lives, not knowing what is going on outside their own little fifedoms - some never having travelled beyond the nearest amphur! They will be performing all of their various quaint (and costly) non beneficial rituals for centuries to come.

One reason i left Britain without getting too political was the massive influx of foreign immigrants not wishing to accept the Traditional cultural values and laws of the land, Certain people with an agenda over time to change everything. Whether you like it or not, this is Thailand and this is their way, you might think it is stupid and they certainly will not. Every point you have raised leaves me to believe that you actually live your life in a blinkered existance. To see a tight knit family and community (which Britain is lacking these days) Bond together for ceremonies and special days, perform rituals to the gods and whoever is a beautiful thing and you should feel priveledged to bear witness to these wonerful moments. If you don't like it go back to England. Its crap back there and you know it.

By the way your point number 2 which you raised before could quite easily be applicable to every nation in the world, especially where we are from.

[NovaBlue05]

"...... And to amplify this view, my wife, shortly before I met her, received word from her mother that she had to return home as an offer of 60,000bt + 2 baht of gold had been received and accepted by her....."

Well....ok...That is a bit "in your face"

[Mikenmod]

This is a touchy subject among many.

My take is that many farangs (me included) don't mind paying a fair price for anything, ever if its "farang" price. But I just hate being screwed and lied to by market vendors and other service providers. But on this subject of sin sod, we are not buying something. Marriage is a big step regardless of the culture. Here in Thailand, paying the sin sod and having a village wedding is accepting the Thai tradition and respecting their customs. We farangs will never become Thai, but if we plan on spending time in Thailand, especially you wife's home town, being seen as a cheap bastard by the villagers is not a good way to make yourself welcome.

If you really can't afford it, I think that the family would accept you if you are sincere and will work to give your wife a good life. But if you don't do sin sod, wedding and gold baht, and then build a big house, have a new pick up truck, etc, I think they will always remember. Thai people are extremely polite and will never mention this to you, but they also may never want to speak with you.

[yorkman]

This is a touchy subject among many.

My take is that many farangs (me included) don't mind paying a fair price for anything, ever if its "farang" price. But I just hate being screwed and lied to by market vendors and other service providers. But on this subject of sin sod, we are not buying something. Marriage is a big step regardless of the culture. Here in Thailand, paying the sin sod and having a village wedding is accepting the Thai tradition and respecting their customs. We farangs will never become Thai, but if we plan on spending time in Thailand, especially you wife's home town, being seen as a cheap bastard by the villagers is not a good way to make yourself welcome.

If you really can't afford it, I think that the family would accept you if you are sincere and will work to give your wife a good life. But if you don't do sin sod, wedding and gold baht, and then build a big house, have a new pick up truck, etc, I think they will always remember. Thai people are extremely polite and will never mention this to you, but they also may never want to speak with you.

My take, using your phrase, is that you are new to Thailand. Nothing wrong with that.

But you will be screwed if you think that the sinsot at the wedding is the be all and the end all of a relationship

[NovaBlue05]

A bit off topic but the most foreign concept I encountered when I got married is the way she views money. In the farang world, the money you earn is for the immediate family...meaning wife & kids. She works and makes a decent salary here in the US but views it as available to the wider family....meaning us, parents and siblings. I had her set up a 401K with payroll deduct to ensure savings and she shares our bills. Anything left is for her. She could spend it all on herself but instead still sends most of it to her mother and sister back on the farm.

[Mikenmod]

This is a touchy subject among many.

My take is that many farangs (me included) don't mind paying a fair price for anything, ever if its "farang" price. But I just hate being screwed and lied to by market vendors and other service providers. But on this subject of sin sod, we are not buying something. Marriage is a big step regardless of the culture. Here in Thailand, paying the sin sod and having a village wedding is accepting the Thai tradition and respecting their customs. We farangs will never become Thai, but if we plan on spending time in Thailand, especially you wife's home town, being seen as a cheap bastard by the villagers is not a good way to make yourself welcome.

If you really can't afford it, I think that the family would accept you if you are sincere and will work to give your wife a good life. But if you don't do sin sod, wedding and gold baht, and then build a big house, have a new pick up truck, etc, I think they will always remember. Thai people are extremely polite and will never mention this to you, but they also may never want to speak with you.

My take, using your phrase, is that you are new to Thailand. Nothing wrong with that.

But you will be screwed if you think that the sinsot at the wedding is the be all and the end all of a relationship

I'm new to Thailand, but that doesn't make me a rube. I met many Thai people and seen a lot of the country in a couple years. My first marriage was to a Filipina, and that lasted 22 years.

I don't think I said the sin sod was in any way relevant to the relationship. Maybe it was taken that way.

I found a nice lady, a fine woman. Thailand is full of very nice and conservative women. I want to marry her, so I'm marrying her in her country according to her country's traditions. It's my choice, I think our relationship will live or die if we work to love and respect each other.

No offense to anyone, but many of the stories of the fleeced farang come from relationships started with the guy wearing his beer goggles

[NovaBlue05]

These dowry/sinsod thread make for amusing albeit predictable reading. There is no right answer and no ones opinion is worth a rats derrier to anyones situation other than their own. At the end of the day, you do what feels right to you. Congrats again and good luck

[Neeranam]

These dowry/sinsod thread make for amusing albeit predictable reading. There is no right answer and no ones opinion is worth a rats derrier to anyones situation other than their own. At the end of the day, you do what feels right to you. Congrats again and good luck

What feels right to someone who's spent 6 months in Thailand after 30 years as a butcher in Bolton or a seaman in Southampton may be very differnt to someone who has spent 20 years in Buriram. Too many elder guys don't tak advice and lo and behold 1-5 years later have lost their sanity or money.

[Travel2003]

"If you can't even raise a dowry how do you expect to look after my daughter?"

One possible argument might be...." I will use the money to take care of your daughter".

[Gary A]

These dowry/sinsod thread make for amusing albeit predictable reading. There is no right answer and no ones opinion is worth a rats derrier to anyones situation other than their own. At the end of the day, you do what feels right to you. Congrats again and good luck

What feels right to someone who's spent 6 months in Thailand after 30 years as a butcher in Bolton or a seaman in Southampton may be very differnt to someone who has spent 20 years in Buriram. Too many elder guys don't tak advice and lo and behold 1-5 years later have lost their sanity or money.

Anyone who has been here for any length of time has seen MANY farangs sheared and fleeced. Sixty year old guys finding young gals under 30 are just asking for trouble. The little head that is telling them to spend more than they can afford to walk away from is giving VERY bad advice. I have had many farangs angry and upset by my remarks but I stand by what I have preached. I have heard the "My girl is different" thing more times than I care to remember. Some will tell you that age makes no difference but it certainly does. If a huge age difference relationship is successful it is in the small minority but I agree there are some.

Chances of having a good happy marriage here are every bit as good as in your home country and maybe even better if you do your thinking with the big head. All that said, you better learn something about the customs if you want to have a decent chance for happiness. Most of us are NOT going to marry a university educated young virgin so sin sot should not be a major factor. If you are planning a big village wedding plan on paying at least enough sin sot to make her and her family proud. If the money concerns you you can make arrangements to get some or maybe all of it back after the ceremony. To refuse to pay because of your principles means that you should NOT be getting married here because you don't understand enough about the country to even have a chance of making things work.

[chuckd]

........But if you don't do sin sod, wedding and gold baht, and then build a big house, have a new pick up truck, etc, I think they will always remember. Thai people are extremely polite and will never mention this to you, but they also may never want to speak with you.

So somebody from my wife's village doesn't want to speak Isaan to a farang that wouldn't understand it anyway?

The down side for me is??????

[lukey1979]

My Gf and i will be getting married later this year after our house is finished and we are settled. She already has a child from a previous husband and has explained to me that I am not obliged to pay any Sin sot for the reasons that are already well explained from some members of TV. However I do know that Thai weddings and parties are quite extravagant in the sense there will be lots of food and guests, I'm also very fond of her parents who really do get on with me and i see no reason why i should'nt pay a little something to show some appreciation. A wedding back in England would cost me about 10000 pounds! I think by giving my in-laws 70,000 baht (A tenth of the price as back home)it will keep everbody happy and i really don't see what the big issue is all about. I think if you feel you are getting scammed then get out of there quick but if you really love somebody then you have to realise this is their way and compromise.

[LoveDaBlues]

These dowry/sinsod thread make for amusing albeit predictable reading. There is no right answer and no ones opinion is worth a rats derrier to anyones situation other than their own. At the end of the day, you do what feels right to you. Congrats again and good luck

What feels right to someone who's spent 6 months in Thailand after 30 years as a butcher in Bolton or a seaman in Southampton may be very differnt to someone who has spent 20 years in Buriram. Too many elder guys don't tak advice and lo and behold 1-5 years later have lost their sanity or money.

Anyone who has been here for any length of time has seen MANY farangs sheared and fleeced. Sixty year old guys finding young gals under 30 are just asking for trouble. The little head that is telling them to spend more than they can afford to walk away from is giving VERY bad advice. I have had many farangs angry and upset by my remarks but I stand by what I have preached. I have heard the "My girl is different" thing more times than I care to remember. Some will tell you that age makes no difference but it certainly does. If a huge age difference relationship is successful it is in the small minority but I agree there are some.

Chances of having a good happy marriage here are every bit as good as in your home country and maybe even better if you do your thinking with the big head. All that said, you better learn something about the customs if you want to have a decent chance for happiness. Most of us are NOT going to marry a university educated young virgin so sin sot should not be a major factor. If you are planning a big village wedding plan on paying at least enough sin sot to make her and her family proud. If the money concerns you you can make arrangements to get some or maybe all of it back after the ceremony. To refuse to pay because of your principles means that you should NOT be getting married here because you don't understand enough about the country to even have a chance of making things work.

GaryA - just once can't you say something stupid so I can launch an attack lol. Once again your post is spot on.

[LoveDaBlues]

My Gf and i will be getting married later this year after our house is finished and we are settled. She already has a child from a previous husband and has explained to me that I am not obliged to pay any Sin sot for the reasons that are already well explained from some members of TV. However I do know that Thai weddings and parties are quite extravagant in the sense there will be lots of food and guests, I'm also very fond of her parents who really do get on with me and i see no reason why i should'nt pay a little something to show some appreciation. A wedding back in England would cost me about 10000 pounds! I think by giving my in-laws 70,000 baht (A tenth of the price as back home)it will keep everbody happy and i really don't see what the big issue is all about. I think if you feel you are getting scammed then get out of there quick but if you really love somebody then you have to realise this is their way and compromise.

Agree with your post. You have forgotten that some of the biggest tightwads in Thailand frequent this forum.

I've seen farangs here get into big arguments over 5 baht.

It takes at least 10 baht to get me going!

[Gary A]

GaryA - just once can't you say something stupid so I can launch an attack lol. Once again your post is spot on.

Thanks for that but not everyone appreciates my opinion. The last guy who asked me what I thought about him building a big fancy house hasn't spoken to me since. Normally I hold my tongue and keep my mouth shut but if they ask me, I tell them.

[NovaBlue05]

These dowry/sinsod thread make for amusing albeit predictable reading. There is no right answer and no ones opinion is worth a rats derrier to anyones situation other than their own. At the end of the day, you do what feels right to you. Congrats again and good luck

What feels right to someone who's spent 6 months in Thailand after 30 years as a butcher in Bolton or a seaman in Southampton may be very differnt to someone who has spent 20 years in Buriram. Too many elder guys don't tak advice and lo and behold 1-5 years later have lost their sanity or money.

Since this is a thread on dowry and not financial planning/ money management, I would hope that individuals assess their own financial situation and offer what is comfortable to their situation. Under no circumstances would I suggest they pay a dowry that will cost them their sanity or financial well being

[blizzard]

if guys r not getting uni edukated virgins can someone explain to me what kind of gurls r availble to marry...lol.

[Khun ?]

A bit off topic but the most foreign concept I encountered when I got married is the way she views money. In the farang world, the money you earn is for the immediate family...meaning wife & kids. She works and makes a decent salary here in the US but views it as available to the wider family....meaning us, parents and siblings. I had her set up a 401K with payroll deduct to ensure savings and she shares our bills. Anything left is for her. She could spend it all on herself but instead still sends most of it to her mother and sister back on the farm.

Hope you give your previous family, if you had one, the same treatment she gives hers.

I seen so many that take care of several thai relatives but never do anything for their previous family in farangland.

It is like the Farang family never existed.

[NovaBlue05]

A bit off topic but the most foreign concept I encountered when I got married is the way she views money. In the farang world, the money you earn is for the immediate family...meaning wife & kids. She works and makes a decent salary here in the US but views it as available to the wider family....meaning us, parents and siblings. I had her set up a 401K with payroll deduct to ensure savings and she shares our bills. Anything left is for her. She could spend it all on herself but instead still sends most of it to her mother and sister back on the farm.

Hope you give your previous family, if you had one, the same treatment she gives hers.

I seen so many that take care of several thai relatives but never do anything for their previous family in farangland.

It is like the Farang family never existed.

Whats a "previous family"?

My previous.....and still current........ family here in "farangland" consist of my 84 yo mother and 3 sisters. My 3 sisters are all in as good or better shape financially than I . My mother is the real reason we are putting off moving to Thailand for now.....and the reason isn't financial. Besides, another few years will solidify my retirement target for savings and pension and I'll still only be in my early 50's. Every baht my wife sends to Isaan comes from her own earnings and provides help for her 80 yo mother and a sister who stayed on the farm to take care of mum in her old age.

[plachon]

These dowry/sinsod thread make for amusing albeit predictable reading. There is no right answer and no ones opinion is worth a rats derrier to anyones situation other than their own. At the end of the day, you do what feels right to you. Congrats again and good luck

What feels right to someone who's spent 6 months in Thailand after 30 years as a butcher in Bolton or a seaman in Southampton may be very differnt to someone who has spent 20 years in Buriram. Too many elder guys don't tak advice and lo and behold 1-5 years later have lost their sanity or money.

Or both!

That "businessman" from Wales who got locked up in a hut in the jungle and was half-starved to death by his beloved from Pattaya before he got out of Dodge, lost a lot more than just his sanity & money by the time he got back to the Valleys.