Tourists Killed Near Death Bridge

[WISteve]

I think the Malay, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are # 1-4 in total tourist numbers.

The Brits and Yanks are the next largest groups.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/tourism2003/markets.html

-----------------------------------------------------------

I certainly hope they manage to get this sorted out and the killer brought to justice soon, first and foremost on behalf of the families involved. Terrible tragedy for them.

If Mr T is getting involved you know the financial reality is hitting home, as it should be. I certainly hope Thailand can manage to do the right thing in this case. With a large share of the world watching, it will be a disaster economicly if they do a "Thai thing" and try to b/s their way through like they have tried to do repeatedly with the avian flu issue. If they give the lives of these Brittish citizens short service they deserve the retribution.

~WISteve

[TominBangkok]

I'm so happy that Thaksin isnt just letting this blow over! He is obviously serious about catching his guy. I'm very relieved after not seeing anything in the papers for 2 days.

[Foggy Bottom]

I think the Malay, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are # 1-4 in total tourist numbers.

The Brits and Yanks are the next largest groups.

Steve - have a nosy at the immigration police website www.police.go.th/thaiimb for the stats with the most detail attached.

Most of the Malays arriving are weekend-trippers on the southern borber, and day-trippers doing shopping or trading.

In terms of raw numbers, the Chinese are top of the list, but as I've posted before, there are 2 other factors to consider - average length of stay, and dosh spent...... i.e. figures for 2001 showed 37% of arrivals were Chinese and 25% were Europeans, but when average length of stay was factored in, then total (tourist) nights in the kingdom became something like Europeans 45% and Chinese 28% - having done that bit of maths, then the average spend becomes more significant. Europeans probably contribute 60%+ of tourist spend in the Kingdom (I don't have the average spend by nationality readily to hand today so am working from rough memory - lol - very rough as my head's foggy today) and despite their numbers and wallet size, the Japanese struggle to compete in the spending stakes based on number of arrivals and length of stay.

Thaksin, for once, is showing good management awareness by ensuring the Brits and Euros are kept happy - perhaps a bit of the real CEO is showing through? As for his "dead or alive" instruction - it's a double edged sword - one dead suspect is enough to claim triumph and close the case, whether it's the correct suspect or not - personally I'd prefer to see him brought in alive and a thorough investigation and courtroom interrogation carried out. Mr T is probably aware though that western expats are baying for blood, so he's offering it to them.

[valentinoxxx]

Eljeque,

You might try www.onlinenewpapers.com ... there is thousands of newpapers from all around the World including many from the UK.

Aussie in Korat.

http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/

[kat]

I think the Malay, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are # 1-4 in total tourist numbers.

The Brits and Yanks are the next largest groups.

Steve - have a nosy at the immigration police website www.police.go.th/thaiimb for the stats with the most detail attached.

Most of the Malays arriving are weekend-trippers on the southern borber, and day-trippers doing shopping or trading.

In terms of raw numbers, the Chinese are top of the list, but as I've posted before, there are 2 other factors to consider - average length of stay, and dosh spent...... i.e. figures for 2001 showed 37% of arrivals were Chinese and 25% were Europeans, but when average length of stay was factored in, then total (tourist) nights in the kingdom became something like Europeans 45% and Chinese 28% - having done that bit of maths, then the average spend becomes more significant. Europeans probably contribute 60%+ of tourist spend in the Kingdom (I don't have the average spend by nationality readily to hand today so am working from rough memory - lol - very rough as my head's foggy today) and despite their numbers and wallet size, the Japanese struggle to compete in the spending stakes based on number of arrivals and length of stay.

Thaksin, for once, is showing good management awareness by ensuring the Brits and Euros are kept happy - perhaps a bit of the real CEO is showing through? As for his "dead or alive" instruction - it's a double edged sword - one dead suspect is enough to claim triumph and close the case, whether it's the correct suspect or not - personally I'd prefer to see him brought in alive and a thorough investigation and courtroom interrogation carried out. Mr T is probably aware though that western expats are baying for blood, so he's offering it to them.

Yes, I agree with you on the dead or alive issue. Again, this is side-stepping the rule of law. If this guy or "someone" is brought in dead or alive, then we've allowed the police to be judge, jury and executioner. I'm not comfortable with this at all, because this method reeks of corruption. I think this is as important as apprehending the suspect, but, hey TIT.

On your point about Burma, you are probably right that I should of said Thaksin is ONE of their biggest allies. This is a continuation of a long history of military and business interest plundering Burma. However, make no mistake about Thaksin's current interests, my friend. It goes way beyond a rental or loan scenario for Shin Sattelite. If you want to discuss this more in depth, feel free to PM me.

I sent a fax to the British Embassy. I'm not sure if I should contact the American Embassy asking them to exert pressure along with the British. Maybe it'll have an effect.

[taxexile]

I sent a fax to the British Embassy. I'm not sure if I should contact the American Embassy asking them to exert pressure along with the British. Maybe it'll have an effect.

did you get a reply from them?, i sent them a long (polite) e-mail about this case a couple of days ago and have not yet received any acknowledgement from them.

[kat]

No, I didn't either, but maybe it's because they are busy. I wasn't sure if it was because I'm American and not British, but I'm sure they are on the case.

[sabai-dee-man]

If Mr T is getting involved you know the financial reality is hitting home, as it should be.

I'm sorry to quote one particular individual, as many have said similar things, but I think many people are missing the point.

It shouldn't be the fact that killing tourists could have a financial impact on the country's economy that the Thai government should be focussing on, it's the fact the authorities are so corrupt and therefore think they can get away with such actions in the first place.

I live just a few miles from the couple that were murdered, and my (Thai) wife and I only returned from holiday in the area just 2 weeks ago. Just a few days back in the UK, telling everyone what a good time we had, and then we hear this disturbing news. We are both shocked and sickened by what's happened, but unfortunately, unsurprised. My wife respects the law, but I was amazed when I first found out she was scared of the police, and even after a year here in the UK, is still impressed by the fact our police do not carry guns, and that they are so approachable. She's even commented how she wouldn't ever consider approaching a police officer in Thailand alone, and would think twice about even going to a police station!

In my opinion, the Thai Govt. should be seriously shaking up the authorities; maybe even asking other countries for advisers to help sort this mess out - but then again that would be a case of losing face wouldn't it? (Probably what sparked this whole thing off in the first place.) I mean, that would be admitting the Govt. can't handle its' internal affairs!

I think, personally, Thailand is the most corrupt and violent society I have ever visited, and I've seen a few. Just take a look at the front page of the newspaper every day to see what Thai's (both police/authorities and civillians) are doing to eachother! Then watch the TV shows, where wielding guns around are so glamourised, and take into account the "saving face" culture and lack or decent state education. It's time the Govt. worried more about educating the population and less about buying bloody football clubs and telephone companies! I know the TV shows and things are similar in the West, but our education standards generally see that the majority of people can define the difference between TV and reality!

But please, let's not put a price on this young couples murder and say what an impact it could have financially on Thailand; that's degrading to their families and their memory.

Sorry to spout off like that on my first ever post.

Andy.

[arthsch]

if they catch the policeman, they should transfer him to the tourist-police, because of his experience.

[JemJem]

This was a horrible incident.

I would like to discuss a sort of 'side issue'. If the people who had been murdered in Kanchanaburi were from a 'third world country', say, from Bolivia or Senegal, I wonder what the reaction would have been. How much effect would it have had on the media ? Would Thaksin have made any comment ? Well, I guess all of us know the answers to these questions.

It is very sad that one's nationality (and also one's race) is often the main factor in the 'condemnation degree' of a terrible incident.

I just wanted to mention this point.

Regards,

Jem

[Dove]

Would there have been so much interest if a Thai couple was killed?

[sabai-dee-man]

Would there have been so much interest if a Thai couple was killed?

Of course not, because there isn't the financial impact on the economy for the Govt. to worry about as is the case when a tourist is involved.

Also, the Thai's see it as a part of everyday life unfortunately - again, I blame the root of the problem on the lack of education.

Culture? Thailand? What culture?!

Andy.

[Heng]

I think this hunt for 'The Fugitive' with helicopters doing flyovers of the wooded areas of Kanchanburi (as if he's hiding out in the woods and swimming through streams like Harrison Ford) are all just for show. If the tourism sector had any real clout as a lobby, there would be a less showy - more effective effort. One doesn't even need to flee the country (Chalerm style - he had to run because there are plenty of people who dislike the Yubamrung family.... not so for this particular cop) to hide out in Thailand. You just go and stay at a non-relative friend's place (preferably someone who lives within a walled compound type house) and watch UBC and order in until it blows over.

Get a haircut and don't make the mistake of wearing your government issue white dress uniform out in public. Sorted.

[taxexile]

that was a very flippant post heng.

you should perhaps be asking questions as to why the police force in this country is not only a national joke, but rapidly becoming an international joke.

the thais are very sensitive to how they are perceived abroad and dont like to lose face over incidents like this (and many previous incidents) where the thai version of inspector clousseau seems to be in charge of any high profile case involving harm to tourists.

not only foriegn tourists heng, but the thai people deserve much better from their police ,and other civil systems as well .

people like you, with the benefit of a foriegn education , should be able to put forward better arguments and analyses on this forum than the constant stream of cynical lazy postings that have become your trademark.

dont you have any pride in your country??

btw. i had a reply from the british embassy ... saying that the thai and brit. authorities are working together on this and that the thai pm is taking a very strong interest in this. read like a standard reply to a query.

[siam]

The latest news.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/page.news....20979&usrsess=1

[sriracha john]

...and also from the same Nation, something that REALLY is pause for concern:

List of UK murder victims grows

An english couple murdered in Kanchanaburi last week was the latest in a growing list of Britons to meet a tragic end in Thailand, Scottish newspaper the Daily Record reports.

Adam Lloyd and Vanessa Arscott were alleged murdered by restaurant owner and police officer Somchai Wisetsing last week in the tourist town.

A Scot, Mark Lemetti, was found in a rubber plantation near Sungai Kolok on August 20.

The 24-year-old had been repeatedly beaten around the head and a snooker cue lay nearby. His injuries were so bad police had trouble identifying him.

In November last year, robbers raided the home of retired Yorkshire engineer James Arthur Green, 63, before stabbing and shooting him and dumping him in a river.

The previous month, businessman Robert Henry, 42, of Coventry, had been shot in the head and back and left in a canal near Pattaya.

In December 2001, arts graduate Penny Cunningham, of New Mills near Stockport, was hit bya train. Her father Peter paid a private investigator to look into the 26-year-old’s death after being told she mysteriously stepped on to tracks in Surat Thani. But three years later baffled coroners recorded an open verdict.

In August 2000, Welsh student Kirsty Jones, 23, was raped and strangled at a guesthouse in Chiang Mai.

Kenneth Alexander, 62, a former air defence expert from London, was stabbed in a seedy hostel in Bangkok in September 1998.

Wealthy architect Andrew Palmer, 36, from Peterborough, was found dead in the beach resort of Pattaya in June 1996. It was believed he had links to the child-sex trade in Cambodia.

Cheshire solicitor Jo Masheder, 23, was found dead at a Buddhist temple outside Kanchanaburi in January 1996. Monk and convicted rapist Yodchart Suephoo,21, confessed to killing her for her camera and B12.

[Heng]

that was a very flippant post  heng.

the thais are very sensitive to how they are perceived abroad and dont like to lose face over incidents like this

people like you, with the benefit of a foriegn education , should be able to put forward better arguments and analyses on this forum than the constant stream of cynical lazy postings that have become your trademark.

I'm just a practical realist.

I'm not sure which locals you associate with, but in my circle of friends, we're rather indifferent to whatever our reputation might be outside of our social circle (much less domestic or even further out... foreign reputation). And I don't mean that in a flippant way either. It's just the reality of the matter and another point of view to be added to the "Thais are like this..." generalizations that are rampant here.

The previous comment in regard to the "manhunt" being conducted by local police AGAIN simply states my opinion of the matter:

1) that the current campaign by police is nothing more than a front to satisfy all parties concerned that 'something is being done' about the whole situation (hopefully for the families involved, I'm wrong about this)

2) that the tourism industry doesn't have the clout that many people believe it to have; that the correlation between between top government + police officials concern in this matter and it's impact on the tourism revenues is not as great as it's been made out to be; (hopefully for the families involved, I'm wrong about this)

(CRTL-C, CRTL-V)

[eljeque]

For those of you with a few ezxtra minutes to burn, please utilize the information provided by the Aussie in Korat and pick a newspaper in the UK to write. Send a word document with jpg photos of the kids before and after, the murderer, and the picture with the money covering his face.

I am not British and do not know the names of the checkout line papers, "The Daily Mirror?" and the others, but for thpse of you who do, please write to them and inform them of the mass of THIAVISA board members who are trying to contact every possible British government and business group, newspaper etc, to bring pressure upon the Thai government.

I am not a tabloid man, but I guess that one of these papers would like to see the information that has been made available on this board and put it in one of their articles. I do not mean to say that I would like to lower this catastrophe to the level of tabloid news, but anything that raises the awareness in England to people who will keep up the barage of enquire to the British government is a step in the right direction

The families thank you for your efforts

You might try www.onlinenewpapers.com ... there is thousands of newpapers from all around the World including many from the UK.

Aussie in Korat.

[valentinoxxx]

Not again....... http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/

[Bucko]

WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE --Hmmmmm ??

If they Don't [or wont ] find him--Whats to stop some poor itinerant Thai man who " Fits the Bill " getting his head blown off , and being offerd up as the offender ??----Possible ??--or am I being unrealistic .

Bucko

[ka12345]

I wonder how many of the 2000 people executed without trial for being "drug dealers" got this kind of attention. How many of them had just pissed off the wrong mentally unstable officer? I'm not saying that this case don't deserve the attention, just sad that the value of human lives seems to be so different...

[stumonster]

<!--QuoteBegin-Heng+Fri 2004-09-17, 06:47:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heng @ Fri 2004-09-17, 06:47:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->

I'm just a practical realist.

<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->

how many of your friends carry weapons and under what circumstances do they carry them. i.e. disco,wedding etc.

are they macho with the weapons they carry, do they wave them around at the slightest provocation?

how much do you think the current generation of soap operas influence the actions of the 18-35 year old thai's?

what situations have you witnessed where someone has brandished a projectile weapon during a disagreement?

for people carrying an illegal weapon, what is their strategy if it is found in their possession by the police?

sorry to be so inquisitive, but you are in a position to give an insight into the actions of thai men/women in the 18-35 age bracket.

[Ijustwannateach]

The blatant display of large knives in various markets that have no obvious kitchen use (and who goes hunting with them in Bangkok?) are not encouraging, with regard to weapon controls here.

Heck, not even the POLICE are issued their own weapons (from what I've read before) and must scrounge enough cash to buy their own from somewhere [at least, this was the excuse given when the 8yo was shot by police during the "drug massacre" period of last year- it couldn't be PROVEN that the bullets were police bullets because there was no official ballistics database of police weapons!!!]

"Steven"

[Heng]

Most police (non special unit, drug units, commando units, etc.) are not issued their own weapons. Hence the hodge podge variation of weapons you see them carrying. I don't know the exact detail either, just what I hear as well.

[Heng]

how many of your friends carry weapons and under what circumstances do they carry them. i.e. disco,wedding etc.

are they macho with the weapons they carry, do they wave them around at the slightest provocation?

how much do you think the current generation of soap operas influence the actions of the 18-35 year old thai's?

what situations have you witnessed where someone has brandished a projectile weapon during a disagreement?

for people carrying an illegal weapon, what is their strategy if it is found in their possession by the police?

sorry to be so inquisitive, but you are in a position to give an insight into the actions of thai men/women in the 18-35 age bracket.

None of my friends carry (as far as I know) regularly, except for the ones who are police officers and the ones who do so in the line of business (while transporting gems, gold, or cash). A few army friends carry, but only in the line of business as well (usually related to money lending). Neither do I, unless I'm in one of the rare above situations (at most a once or year thing). Many do own firearms though, keep firearms in their places of business or homes, and meet at the shooting range once a month for practice.

I don't know anyone who waves their firearms around, but also can't remember the last time anyone's been provoked (in a Chalerm style incident). Myself, I doubt those kinds of incidents would happen anyway as it takes a combination of chip-on-your-shoulder-attitude plus a bad upbringing to not care about sacrificing your life of relative privilege just because you lose your temper.

As for being found with a weapon... have yet to have it happen, but the gun range instructs/recommends you to inform the police officer of your weapon (in the trunk or your car, in the glove compartment, etc.), and show them your gun club membership card. Many of us also carry the business cards of our friend's fathers who are either involved with the shooting ranges or just moderately high ranking. Being polite should be more than enough "sargent, I'm in a bit of a hurry to take care of some business, could you just call up my uncle and sort it out with him?" That SHOULD be followed with a salute and "chern kap" (take care, on your way, go ahead...) the end of it.

[plachon]

I'll give you this Heng - at least you're prepared to tell it as it is. Valuable insight for newbies to Thailand, but can't say it fills me with a lot of hope that the "gun culture" prevalent in LOS, that leads to the kind of incident at Kanchanaburi being repeated on an almost daily basis (but not usually involving farangs), is going to change any time soon.

You defend the "status quo", but can't see that it is the inherent injustice of the "status quo" which is going to come tumbling down on your privileged heads one of these fine days, when the ones who are used and abused by the system have finally had enough. In the meantime, enjoy and forget the others who keep you fed, watered and clothed in ermine.

[sriracha john]

the "status quo" which is going to come tumbling down on your privileged heads one of these fine days, when the ones who are used and abused by the system have finally had enough.

The phrase, "Storm The Bastille!" comes to mind.....

[Heng]

The phrase, "Storm The Bastille!" comes to mind.....

That's a real "possibility" (about as possible as the avg. peasant winning the gov't lottery) considering that they are completely under-taxed (7% VAT and no income tax) and that there is an X million ton rice surplus every year.

[Heng]

Well, I'd rather not get into a gun culture debate as we can't go back in time and get rid of all the guns. We could probably argue back and forth as to why people feel the need to carry/own them. As mentioned I don't feel the need to carry, and neither do most of my friends.... those that do, they typically do so for the same reason why there are armed guards at most large banks, not for shooting unarmed locals or tourists who are minding their own business and not being rude.

You defend the "status quo", but can't see that it is the inherent injustice of the "status quo" which is going to come tumbling down on your privileged heads one of these fine days, when the ones who are used and abused by the system have finally had enough. In the meantime, enjoy and forget the others who keep you fed, watered and clothed in ermine.

Even when the status quo changes, it doesn't mean life gets better for those who were walked on before. The world came tumbling down on the Romanovs, yet they are still around to this very day, living a life of privilege (just not in palaces in Moscow). I'm not defending the status quo (as change is a constant anyway). The more things change, the more they stay the same.

forget the others who keep you fed, watered and clothed in ermine.

How could we forget them when they are on our payrolls, eating in our factory cafeterias, wearing our uniforms, and working for us?

[jhj2000]

The policeman that committed the murder is a well known member of the mafia in Thailand. I believe that he had a reputation for being a “Godfather” in the province. He is probably in Burma or Laos and the chances of him being caught are slim.

Why waste Embassies time when they could be doing better things like stopping young girls being raped.