BA Flight Lands Short Of Runway at London Airport

[LaoPo]

What went wrong with BA flight?

I have downloaded the most important photos from the BBC site for those who have a slow connection or can't open them:

Air accident investigators will piece together the events leading to the crash-landing of BA flight 038 before being sure what lay behind the drama.

Key to their inquiry will be gathering information from the flight recorders, witnesses and the pilot himself.

External factors including the weather will also be under the spotlight.

But early information suggests some sort of drastic technical failure which the pilot fought to overcome in order to land safely.

The pilot himself has described losing all power, an airport worker has told the BBC's Angus Crawford.

"He just told me... the aircraft just shut down and everything. He lost all his power and everything," the unnamed worker said.

"He said to me he had no warning, absolutely nothing at all. It's just suddenly 'Boom'. It's just lost absolutely everything. It's a miracle, the man deserves an absolute medal as big as a frying pan."

The pilot, he said, had been forced to lift the plane's nose and glide the remaining short distance to Heathrow.

The account echoes that of an eyewitness, airport worker Martin Green.

"It came in at a very high angle and just dropped like a stone. It seemed to be flying fairly slow and it had a very high angle of attack. The nose was high up in the air, which is very unusual," he told Sky News.

Witness Neil Jones - who holds a general aviation pilot's licence - said his attention was attracted by the louder-than-normal noise the plane was making as it banked low over houses.

"You could see the pilot was desperate, trying to get the plane down," he told BBC News 24. "The aircraft hit the grass and there was a lot of dirt. The pilot was struggling to keep the plane straight. I think he did a great job."

Gusty wind

At the time, weather conditions were favourable and visibility good, although there was a gusty wind which could conceivably have played a role.

The task of investigators from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) will be much easier than in many cases, as the flight recorders and wreckage are easily accessible and not deep under water or damaged by fire.

The fact that all crew and passengers survived and can be interviewed will also help build up a detailed picture of exactly what happened and over what timescale.

Already it is clear that passengers were given no early warning of a problem with the plane.

The type of plane involved has an excellent safety record, says air transport expert David Learmount.

"The Boeing 777 has never had an accident before and it's been in service now for more than 10 years," he said.

He also suspects that investigations may focus on a sudden, late loss of power.

"I can't believe that this is a straight error of judgement by the pilots. BA pilots don't make error of judgements of that type, especially not at the home base, let alone anywhere else in weather conditions that were not particularly demanding in an aircraft that has an absolutely first class safety record," he said.

"So in the end it makes me wonder if the pilots, at a fairly late stage in the approach, had a major technical problem on their hands that they were fighting with."

Investigators will certainly want to establish whether both engines were working at the time of the crash. If one had failed, the plane would still have been capable of a "normal" undramatic landing.

"The fact that the aircraft was so far short, in such good visibility, gives some kind of indication that the plane was suffering very late in the approach from a lack of power. We don't know," Mr Learmount said.

Bird strike?

As to what might have sparked such a loss of power in a plane as reliable as the Boeing 777 - and maintained by an airline of BA's standing - birds will be among the suspects.

If, for example, a flock of geese or large birds had been hit, the damage could conceivably have been sufficient to knock out or seriously compromise both engines.

That, Mr Learmount stresses, is speculation at this early stage. Some public speculation has also focused on a possible fuel shortage, but even if levels had run low, ample warning should have been given to the crew.

All too frequently, air accidents are caused by a chain of events, each relatively harmless in itself but catastrophic when linked.

In this case, exactly the same chain of events followed by a fire on the ground could have turned the drama into a major disaster - a fact which investigators probing the incident will be only too well aware of.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7194569.stm

LaoPo

[yorkman]

Yes, so you just said what I said LaoPo, in a "slightly" longer form.

Wait until the Flight Recorder is analysed, and the cockpit recordings. PAX (passenger) witnesses mean little, except to excited journalists who are paid by the line, or article, or whatever they do

The passengers and all the crew got out safely. That is the good news.

Edited January 17, 2008 by yorkman

[kennkate]

Looks like the port undercarrage punched stright through the wing root ,

Could have been very nasty if it had gone up into the cabin.

Lady luck was hanging around for sure

Not taking anything away from the crew. WELL DONE GREAT JOB

I think they will need a few drinks tonight in order to get to sleep.

[yorkman]

I think they will need a few drinks tonight in order to get to sleep.

No they won't. They are very unlikely, even being BA Pilots, to be pissheads.

More likely interviewed by the Police, the CAA and every gladhand nobody who thinks they ought to be involved. They are doubtless glad to get home to their missis. A few celebratory drinks can be excused, but not for sleep purposes

[LaoPo]

Yes, so you just said what I said LaoPo, in a "slightly" longer form.

I just quoted BBC Yorkman; I'm not a specialist in the industry; just a passenger.

Flew with a 777 myself to and from Beijing (but not Heathrow) and thought it to be a nice and quiet plane.

Latest on Heathrow travel problems

The crash-landing of British Airways flight BA038 at Heathrow has prompted widespread flight cancellations and other travel problems in and around the west London airport.

# Heathrow is advising all passengers to check its website www.ba.com and contact individuals airlines for information on which flights are still operating.

# A total of 221 flights have been cancelled, mostly short-haul. Cancellations have affected British Airways and other airlines, and all four terminals at Heathrow have been hit.

# Some long-haul flights have been cancelled (check with your airline if you are planning to travel).

# Many other long-haul flights from Heathrow have been departing late, by several hours in most cases.

# The scheduled British Airways flights from Manchester Airport to Heathrow at 1540, 1705, 1850 were cancelled and the flight at 1940 is currently delayed (check for latest updates).

# Two BA flights from Newcastle to Heathrow at 1755 and 1945 were cancelled, as well as the 1710 and 1840 flights from Heathrow to Newcastle.

# The airline bmi cancelled 14 flights in or out of Heathrow by 1635 GMT. Routes affected were to and from Manchester, Leeds Bradford, Belfast, Dublin, Amsterdam and Brussels.

# A total of 24 incoming flights have been diverted to nearby airports, including 11 to Gatwick, four to Luton, five to Stansted and two to Manchester. The airlines involved will announce their own arrangements for the transfer of passengers.

# Road traffic busy around Heathrow Airport. The exit slip road from Junction 14 of the M25 was closed and a section of the A30 was closed at Hatton Cross.

# Further traffic information can be heard on BBC national and local radio stations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7194622.stm

LaoPo

Edited January 17, 2008 by seonai

[yorkman]

As you say, you are a passenger. Flight travel is very safe.

So, just wait until the facts come out LaoPao, no need to be excited, or agitated, or post stuff you have got from the interweb (sic , intentionally)

The BBC is not the source of all wisdom, this may come as a surprise to you perhaps? . Just wait for the real evidence; what the pilots and the flight recorder says...

Edited January 17, 2008 by yorkman

[seonai]

Yes it will be so interesting to see what the pilots and flight recorder say. As someone who doesn't know anything about flying... it looks to me that this pilot did a great job missing the road etc

[dekka007]

Does not look like windshear to me predictive then if needed Reactive windshear warning systems and guidance would have taken care of that and the crew carried out the correct actions.

One eyewitness report states that there was a low whining noise on the last minutes of the approach. This to me sounds like a dual engine flame out and the noise being either the initial starting of the APU (1 min autostart on system recognition of dual engine fail) or it could the noise created by the RAT air driven generator deployed.

Also a video shows that the APU inlet port is open indicating a running or starting APU.

The high angle of attack maybe due to the crew trying to stretch the glide slightly to get the airplane within the airport boundaries at least. Well flown if thats the case using remaining energy to get it safely into the airport possibly resulting in a stall at very low attitude which led to the gear collapsing.

time will tell obviously but its got the making of dual engine fail at low level..........

Edited January 18, 2008 by dekka007

[Tywais]

... it looks to me that this pilot did a great job missing the road etc

My 'speculation' on it. After reading the passenger reports and other info things start to add up. If loss of all power the pilot would have to configure the aircraft for maximum glide rate, which is usually around minimal controllable air speed. This requires pitching the nose up and as he got closer to the ground and saw the highway approaching would have to pull the nose up even more to extend the glide. At some point a few feet above the ground, it may have gone into full stall in which case the plane would 'suddenly drop' and hit hard. If this is the case, indeed a remarkable job of piloting.

When I was studying for my license my instructor required me to do full stall landings. This is when the wheels touch the ground exactly as the plane stalls. Takes a lot of precision and nerves doing these. I was white knuckled the first few times I did them and physically exhausted from the adrenaline rush.

Just before my instructor signed off on my license he set up a challenge. Who can get closest to a point on the runway under full power off conditions. On the downwind leg of the landing, power is removed directly across from the point you plan on touching down. You then have to glide the plane in, making two 90 degree turns and get as close to the line as possible. My instructor was within a few feet. My turn came and figured I could beat that. As I was on short final, I saw I was going to overshoot the line some so kept pulling the nose up to reduce speed. Managed to do a full stall a couple of feet above the ground and 'dropped' to the runway hard. Did hit the line though and felt proud of it but the muttering from my instructor suggested otherwise, he decided it was a draw.

BTW: my pulling the nose up didn't actually help reduce the distance, the full stall did.

[Crossy]

Not read the whole thread here (so others may have posted) but pprune have got a VERY speculative thread going:-

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=309075

Not a live link, cut and paste to access.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Crossy

[Mosha]

A large passenger jet liner without power will lose about 2000' per minute. That's if they were travelling at cruising speed. This aircraft would have been doing less than 200 mph.

[yorkman]

Just heard on internet radio, or tune in if you can get it. BBC Radio 2.....

A short statement from an AAIB official. Their early impression is double engine failure on very short finals

[dekka007]

Their early impression is double engine failure on very short finals

In which case very well flown by the 2 guys upfront. Couldn't have worked out better, luckily they were very lightweight. Will be interesting to know the reason. I would lean towards 1 of only 2 things:

1. Bird Strike.

2. Fuel Contamination.

The fuel from China airports is not known for its quality or storage facilities being perfect. We always try when able to carry roundtrip fuel to China for this reason. But 777 on a europe sector cannot really be done.

Edited January 18, 2008 by dekka007

[MrSquigle]

Why he not just autorotate ....much easier.

[yorkman]

Their early impression is double engine failure on very short finals

In which case very well flown by the 2 guys upfront. Couldn't have worked out better, luckily they were very lightweight. Will be interesting to know the reason. I would lean towards 1 of only 2 things:

1. Bird Strike.

2. Fuel Contamination.

The fuel from China airports is not known for its quality or storage facilities being perfect. We always try when able to carry roundtrip fuel to China for this reason. But 777 on a europe sector cannot really be done.

Need to re-emphasise this is an AAIB initial impression. Although they are usually so cautious about making statements it would seem they are heading that way.

Well if it is not one of those 2 , the question is what is going to happen to the 777 ETOPS approval until they get to the bottom of it?

Bird Strike, it must have been a heck of a flock to take out both engines simultaneously. And fuel contamination? Well unless they were crossfeeding from 1 tank you would be very unlucky if both engines picked up contaminated fuel at the same time.

It is interesting that they are saying "short" finals, that implies simultaneous or near simultaneous failure.

You are right though, it could not have worked out better. If it had been long finals or, god forbid, just after takeoff, the outcome would probably not have been so happy.

[seonai]

Hi Yorkman ans Dekka. What is AAIB please and can you explain 'short finals' again please It's all very interesting

[seonai]

'Pilot Captain Peter Burkill is being hailed today as a hero'

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q...earch&meta=

[Spee]

This now leaves me to wonder whether the plane’s unusually low height above ground, as reported by an eye-witness on the ground, was already before the loss of power or afterwards, but I figure that only the flight recorder (black box) can tell this.

Another eyewitness, a taxi driver, said the plane flew over the nearby M4 motorway "so low you would think you could lean out the window and touch it".

--

Maestro

Inbound and outbound flights from Heathrow don't ever come close to the M4 unless they're at 5000 feet 10 miles out turning circles in a landing delay pattern. This eyewitness must have meant the M25, where normally I would guess aircraft to be at around 200-300 feet above the road when they come in. If that pilot kept it above the roadway but still put in down in the grass, then I would guess he wouldn't have cleared the roadway by much.

I would seriously doubt that the dual engine failure was due to "bird flew." Having once been a passenger on a twin engine jet that sucked in a bird on final about 200 feet above the ground, I can assure you that everyone on that plane would have known. In my experience, when the bird went in, the engine flameout was so violent that there was an extremely loud bang and a shock wave vibration that shook the entire plane for several seconds. Obviously triple sevens and their engines are much larger and more advanced than the MD-80 I was on, but I would think that simultaneous dual bird strikes would have been pretty obvious to everyone on board.

I would agree with all opinions that the flight crew are heroes. From all reports, this incident occurred in a very critical stage of the flight and they had only seconds to react. That they were able to bring it down with no fatalities or serious injuries is strong testimony of how well they did their jobs. It is also strong testimony to the design and construction of the aircraft. For the airframe to sustain that level of shock impact and fail in the manner that it did, to me is ample testimony of how well-designed and well-built this aircraft really is. It absorbed and dissipated the shock impact rather than catastrophically fracturing from it.

As with everything, the true test is not when things are going well and as expected, but rather how men and machine perform in unusual circumstances when the pressure is on.

[yorkman]

Hi Yorkman ans Dekka. What is AAIB please and can you explain 'short finals' again please It's all very interesting

AAIB is the Air Accident Investigation Branch. A department of the Civil Aviation Authority.

Short finals is the final phase of the approach to land. As opposed to long finals when you have just turned onto the approach, and are quite a long way out.

Edited January 18, 2008 by yorkman

[yorkman]

I would seriously doubt that the dual engine failure was due to "bird flew." Having once been a passenger on a twin engine jet that sucked in a bird on final about 200 feet above the ground, I can assure you that everyone on that plane would have known. In my experience, when the bird went in, the engine flameout was so violent that there was an extremely loud bang and a shock wave vibration that shook the entire plane for several seconds. Obviously triple sevens and their engines are much larger and more advanced than the MD-80 I was on, but I would think that simultaneous dual bird strikes would have been pretty obvious to everyone on board.

That is a very fair point, I imagine somebody would have mentioned it.....

I do hope it is due to some external factor though as dekka suggests, or it is going to cause havoc while they sort out the 777 fleet.

The AAIB have promised an initial report within the next 24 hours or so.

[LaoPo]

As you say, you are a passenger. Flight travel is very safe.

So, just wait until the facts come out LaoPao, no need to be excited, or agitated, or post stuff you have got from the interweb (sic , intentionally)

The BBC is not the source of all wisdom, this may come as a surprise to you perhaps? . Just wait for the real evidence; what the pilots and the flight recorder says...

Excuse me Yorkman but I find your answer quite odd...maybe you should read better what I write and what I quote ?

I am NOT agitated, excited nor speculating -about the plane crash- or anything else but if I post 'stuff' here from the interweb -intentionally- and it doesn't suit you, there are two options I think; report me or don't read it.

I agree: nobody, not even the BBC is a source of all wisdom, not even you; put me in last place, will you please ?

I started this topic when I learned about the British Airways crash on Heathrow; that's all.

But, at least, I don't speculate about the cause

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Yes, so you just said what I said LaoPo, in a "slightly" longer form.

I just quoted BBC Yorkman; I'm not a specialist in the industry; just a passenger.

Flew with a 777 myself to and from Beijing (but not Heathrow) and thought it to be a nice and quiet plane.

Latest on Heathrow travel problems

The crash-landing of British Airways flight BA038 at Heathrow has prompted widespread flight cancellations and other travel problems in and around the west London airport.

# Heathrow is advising all passengers to check its website www.ba.com and contact individuals airlines for information on which flights are still operating.

# A total of 221 flights have been cancelled, mostly short-haul. Cancellations have affected British Airways and other airlines, and all four terminals at Heathrow have been hit.

# Some long-haul flights have been cancelled (check with your airline if you are planning to travel).

# Many other long-haul flights from Heathrow have been departing late, by several hours in most cases.

# The scheduled British Airways flights from Manchester Airport to Heathrow at 1540, 1705, 1850 were cancelled and the flight at 1940 is currently delayed (check for latest updates).

# Two BA flights from Newcastle to Heathrow at 1755 and 1945 were cancelled, as well as the 1710 and 1840 flights from Heathrow to Newcastle.

# The airline bmi cancelled 14 flights in or out of Heathrow by 1635 GMT. Routes affected were to and from Manchester, Leeds Bradford, Belfast, Dublin, Amsterdam and Brussels.

# A total of 24 incoming flights have been diverted to nearby airports, including 11 to Gatwick, four to Luton, five to Stansted and two to Manchester. The airlines involved will announce their own arrangements for the transfer of passengers.

# Road traffic busy around Heathrow Airport. The exit slip road from Junction 14 of the M25 was closed and a section of the A30 was closed at Hatton Cross.

# Further traffic information can be heard on BBC national and local radio stations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7194622.stm

LaoPo

Seonai: why was the post edited and what was -eventually- wrong and what was edited ?

If I click the BBC link now it is different than the moment I quoted it; that's obvious as the site was constantly changing in the aftermath of the accident.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

'Peter the Perfect Pilot': Hero who saved 151 lives in crash is handsome charmer

Last updated at 15:11pm on 18th January 2008

Peter Burkhill (photo Daily Mail)

Captain Peter Burkill has been known for years by family and friends as "Peter the Perfect Pilot".

Married three times and with five children, Capt Burkill, 44, is every inch the handsome, charming pilot - described by one neighbour as the "perfect man for a crisis".

His wife Maria, with whom he has three young sons, was unavailable for comment and had left the £500,000 family home in Worcester to stay with relatives.

But on Friends Reunited, Mrs Burkill, 34 - a former British Airways air hostess and Butlins Redcoat who is now a paramedic - describes her husband as "the man of my dreams".

A friend who did not wish to be named told how Capt Burkill had wanted to be a pilot since childhood.

"That's all he ever wanted to do," said the friend. "He is a very lovely man. He is very handsome and very charming. We always used to call him Peter the Perfect Pilot."

Neighbour Valerie Firminger said: "I don't think anything fazes him. I have real problems flying and he has helped me.

"If you ever wanted anyone to be in charge of a plane, you would want Peter.

"He is so perfectly cool, calm and collected. The kind of person you would want in a crisis."

Mrs Firminger told how Mrs Burkhill burst into tears when told of the crash landing.

"Marie was in a very vulnerable state, there were lots of tears and she was quite wobbly. But she is very capable - just like her husband.

"They are a lovely family. He's a great dad, great with the kids. He's just really nice and down to earth. But he is also very focused and positive."

Capt Burkill grew up in Amersham, Buckinghamshire, where his elderly parents - his father is a retired pilot - still live. A neighbour, Adele Grass, said: "They are very proud of him. He did a good job."

Capt Burkill met Maria in 2002 and they married in May 2003. Their first son Troy was born in March 2005 followed by Logan, one, and Coby, born just three months ago.

He has two children Annabel, 12, and James 10, from his marriage to his second wife Sarah-Jane, who also used to work as a BA hostess.

It is understood Capt Burkill has worked as a BA pilot for almost 20 years and earns around £100,000 a year.

As might be expected from a longstanding BA employee, he likes to travel - a revelation disclosed, oddly enough, in a testimonial for a Butlins holiday camp promotion.

The Burkills own a timeshare at Butlins in Minehead, Somerset. In the testimonial, Mr Burkill reveals how the family enjoys up to four holidays a year, including an annual skiing trip and a summer trip to the Caribbean.

They are such frequent flyers that Troy, aged two, has already clocked up 25,000 air miles.

Capt Burkill's handling of the Boeing 777 crisis at Heathrow earned praise from fellow pilots and airline staff today.

An airport worker who spoke to Capt Burkill said: "He told me the aircraft shut down and he lost all his power. He just glided it in and lifted the nose up and managed to get it down.

"He lost power coming in to land. If power is lost, it's very difficult to keep the wing-tips level. The pilot was marvellous. It was a fantastic bit of flying.

"This man deserves a medal as big as a frying pan. He's done a fantastic job, he really has."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770

'Hero' pilot of Heathrow crash drama

Friday, 18 January 2008, 13:05 GMT

Peter Burkhill (photo BBC)

Airline captain Peter Burkill has been widely praised for his handling of the crash-landing of a British Airways Boeing 777 at Heathrow Airport.

Article continues here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7195582.stm

LaoPo

[yorkman]

LaoPao

Pull your horns in and check back on your previous post.

There are (were) hundreds if not thousands of people complaining in the UK about "my holiday has been spoiled" and other such selfish thoughts, rather than understanding that over 100 peoples lives had just been saved was (slightly, oh ever so slightly) more important.

So a long and rather irrelevant post about flight delays (copied from goodness knows where) does not really add to the mix, do you agree?

Yes some minor speculation on here about possible causes, just musings because it was in my (past) professional interest, and in Dekka's (current) professional interest. Very minor speculation if you see the rubbish that is posted elsewhere. And because some people asked.

As I said, the preliminary AAIB report is out soon. Hopefully it is an external event that caused this, or expect serious problems with delays while they check and fix the 777 fleet!!

Peace

[LaoPo]

LaoPao

Pull your horns in and check back on your previous post.

I wasn't born with horns and still no sign of them...but please don't address me as being 'excited' or 'agitated' if I'm not, Sir. I was and still am, perfectly calm.

I hope you have no objections with my next post...quoted from the BBC ?

********************************************************************************

*************

Co-pilot controlled crash-landing

A British Airways jet that crash-landed at Heathrow was being controlled by the co-pilot, it has been revealed.

Captain Peter Burkill told a press conference Senior First Officer John Coward brought the plane in to land on Thursday afternoon.

Mr Burkill, 43, also praised all the crew for showing "the highest standards of skill and professionalism", as he spoke at the airline's headquarters

All 136 passengers and 16 crew survived the incident.

Mr Burkill, along with Mr Coward and Cabin Services Director Sharon Eaton-Mercer, were greeted with massive applause ahead of the short statement about the crash.

Because of the ongoing investigation, Mr Burkill said he could not comment on what caused the incident.

He praised the passengers and rescue staff for the way they reacted when the plane was forced to ditch short of the runway.

"As British Airways flight and cabin crew we are trained on a regular basis to deal with emergency situations," he said.

"We have procedures to follow and everyone knows their place.

"Flying is about teamwork and we had an outstanding team on board."

Peter Burkhill (photo BBC)

He said Mr Coward had done a "most remarkable job" in landing the aircraft.

The pilot praised the cabin director and her staff, some of whom suffered minor injuries making sure passengers were safe.

He said Ms Eaton Mercer only left the aircraft after she was certain those on the flight deck were unharmed.

"I want to thank the passengers too for their calmness and good sense during extremely unfamiliar circumstances," Mr Burkill said.

He also thanked the fire, ambulance and police personnel for their quick response to the crash.

Investigators are trying to find out what caused the incident. The plane is thought to have suffered a sudden loss of power on approach.

'Professionalism praised'

Mr Burkill and Mr Coward are said to have shared a curry on Thursday night after the incident.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown's own flight to China was delayed as the Boeing skidded across the grass short of the runway and pulled up about 1,000 metres from his plane.

Mr Brown, who is on an official visit to Beijing, praised the pilot's "professionalism" in managing to avert a major disaster.

He said: "I think it's right to pay tribute to the calmness and professionalism of the British Airways staff and the captain and what he achieved in landing the aircraft."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...don/7196526.stm

LaoPo

[Maestro]

...If that pilot kept it above the roadway but still put in down in the grass, then I would guess he wouldn't have cleared the roadway by much...

I can't find it right now but I remember one news report quoting a taxi driver saying that the plane flew 20 feet over his car, and another driver said it felt like he could put his arm out the window and touch the plane.

From what I have now learnt in this thread about gliding a plane without power in to land, the pilot must have struggled very hard to get the plane to clear the airport's perimeter fence, pulling up the nose without stalling.

--

Maestro

[yorkman]

...If that pilot kept it above the roadway but still put in down in the grass, then I would guess he wouldn't have cleared the roadway by much...

I can't find it right now but I remember one news report quoting a taxi driver saying that the plane flew 20 feet over his car, and another driver said it felt like he could put his arm out the window and touch the plane.

From what I have now learnt in this thread about gliding a plane without power in to land, the pilot must have struggled very hard to get the plane to clear the airport's perimeter fence, pulling up the nose without stalling.

--

Maestro

Yes he did an excellent job Maestro.

It was a trade between speed and height. Total energy in Glider (Sailplane for the US cousins parlance) terms.

Pure reactions for an experienced pilot, but the latest "news" ahem , was that the First Officer was flying the aircraft at the time..so who knows who deserves the medal.

<flame deleted>

Just wait for the AAIB preliminary report, It will be availalable soon.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Maestro
Deleted flame - Maestro

[LaoPo]

...If that pilot kept it above the roadway but still put in down in the grass, then I would guess he wouldn't have cleared the roadway by much...

I can't find it right now but I remember one news report quoting a taxi driver saying that the plane flew 20 feet over his car, and another driver said it felt like he could put his arm out the window and touch the plane.

From what I have now learnt in this thread about gliding a plane without power in to land, the pilot must have struggled very hard to get the plane to clear the airport's perimeter fence, pulling up the nose without stalling.

--

Maestro

Yes he did an excellent job Maestro.

It was a trade between speed and height. Total energy in Glider (Sailplane for the US cousins parlance) terms.

Pure reactions for an experienced pilot, but the latest "news" ahem , was that the First Officer was flying the aircraft at the time..so who knows who deserves the medal.

Just wait for the AAIB preliminary report, It will be availalable soon.

Maestro:

It was in the OP:

Eyewitness John Rowland said: "The plane's wheels collapsed, doors were flown open.

"On its approach it took the runway too low, just missing the roof of my cab.

"It crashed into the runway, debris was flying everywhere, there was an enormous bang and it skidded sideways."

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

'No thrust' on stricken BA plane

Friday, 18 January 2008, 19:47 GMT

Both engines on a plane that crash-landed at Heathrow failed to respond to demands for extra thrust, an initial report says.

Despite continued demands for power the Boeing 777 "descended rapidly", landing short of the runway, the Air Accident Investigations Branch (AAIB) said.

As the plane struck the ground on Thursday the right landing gear broke off from the wing, the report said.

The jet encountered problems just two miles from the airport, it said.

All 136 passengers and 16 crew on the British Airways flight survived.

"A significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraft but there was no fire" AAIB crash report.

It was flying at a height of about 600ft (180m) when the engines failed to respond to a demand for increased thrust from the jet's autothrottle .

After continued demands for increased thrust, and the "flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond", the report indicated.

"The aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft descended onto the grass short of the paved runway surface," it said.

The plane was using an instrument landing system (ILS) approach, which allows pilots to follow a set path and be guided in, as it was coming into runway 27L at Heathrow.

'Outstanding team'

The report noted that: "A significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraft but there was no fire."

Earlier Captain Peter Burkill revealed the jet was brought in to land by the co-pilot.

At a press conference before the report was released, Mr Burkill said Senior First Officer John Coward had done a "most remarkable job" in landing the aircraft.

He also praised all the crew for showing "the highest standards of skill and professionalism".

"Flying is about teamwork and we had an outstanding team on board," he said.

Captain Burkill praised his crew at a press conference

During the emergency evacuation via the slides all occupants left the aircraft, one person suffered a broken leg and others received minor injuries.

The AAIB said it had been notified of the accident within a few minutes and a team of inspectors had gone to the airport.

US aviation authorities and representatives of Boeing were also involved, the AAIB said.

The BA flight crew were interviewed later on Thursday and the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder from the plane are being studied.

An examination of the plane's systems and engines was ongoing, the AAIB said.

In conclusion the AAIB said: "The investigation is now focused on more detailed analysis of the flight recorder information, collecting further recorded information from various system modules, and examining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operation."

The AAIB hopes to publish a preliminary report within 30 days of the incident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...don/7196962.stm

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Initial Report about the crash from the official website of the AAIB:

Accident to Boeing 777-236, G-YMMM at London Heathrow Airport on 17 January 2008 - Initial Report

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/acc...tial_report.cfm

For members who are not able to open this link or have a slow connection, this is what the initial report says:

"Following an uneventful flight from Beijing, China, the aircraft was established on an ILS approach to Runway 27L at London Heathrow. Initially the approach progressed normally, with the Autopilot and Autothrottle engaged, until the aircraft was at a height of approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down. The aircraft then descended rapidly and struck the ground, some 1,000 ft short of the paved runway surface, just inside the airfield boundary fence. The aircraft stopped on the very beginning of the paved surface of Runway 27L. During the short ground roll the right main landing gear separated from the wing and the left main landing gear was pushed up through the wing root. A significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraft but there was no fire. An emergency evacuation via the slides was supervised by the cabin crew and all occupants left the aircraft, some receiving minor injuries.

The AAIB was notified of the accident within a few minutes and a team of Inspectors including engineers, pilots and a flight recorder specialist deployed to Heathrow. In accordance with the established international arrangements the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) of the USA, representing the State of Design and Manufacture of the aircraft, was informed of the event. The NTSB appointed an Accredited Representative to lead a team from the USA made up of investigators from the NTSB, the FAA and Boeing. A Boeing investigator already in the UK joined the investigation on the evening of the event, the remainder of the team arrived in the UK on Friday 18th January. Rolls-Royce, the engine manufacturer is also supporting the investigation, an investigator having joined the AAIB team.

Activity at the accident scene was coordinated with the Airport Fire and Rescue Service, the Police, the British Airports Authority and British Airways to ensure the recovery of all relevant evidence, to facilitate the removal of the aircraft and the reinstatement of airport operations.

The flight crew were interviewed on the evening of the event by an AAIB Operations Inspector and the Flight Data Recorder (FDR), Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Quick Access Recorder (QAR) were removed for replay. The CVR and FDR have been successfully downloaded at the AAIB laboratories at Farnborough and both records cover the critical final stages of the flight. The QAR was downloaded with the assistance of British Airways and the equipment manufacturer. All of the downloaded information is now the subject of detailed analysis.

Examination of the aircraft systems and engines is ongoing.

Initial indications from the interviews and Flight Recorder analyses show the flight and approach to have progressed normally until the aircraft was established on late finals for Runway 27L. At approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down, the Autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines but the engines did not respond. Following further demands for increased thrust from the Autothrottle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond. The aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft descended onto the grass short of the paved runway surface.

The investigation is now focussed on more detailed analysis of the Flight Recorder information, collecting further recorded information from various system modules and examining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operation.

LaoPo