Education - Education And Education

[tutsiwarrior]

re: english language ability; it is clear to anyone involved in international business or technical endeavors that english is the language to know...in engineering it is the contract language; in a meeting room there may be european, asian and arabic but when people come to the table it is english that is used. We know that language is fundamental to an understanding of one's culture and should be preserved but not to the extent that the preservation results in exclusion from the rest of the world.

I have screamed and yelled at associates when I view that their obstinacy had inpeded the progress of a project and I could see that behind the glaring eyes there is rumination in their own language...(just like tutsi fuming 'you dumb fuc_k' in Pasadena street jargon). But those concerns can only be communicated in the contract language as any justification for one's position must have a reference to the contract...that was written in english.

easy for native speakers to criticize and I abhor the fascist attempts of persons in english speaking countries to force immigrants to adhere to their culture with learning the language. But the ability to speak the required language in a business environment enables a choice that otherwise would not be available.

[Heng]

Important but considering that the majority of locals (it's apparently hard for a lot of folks to comprehend that most locals have nothing to do with tourism or their support industries whatsoever) never get the opportunity to use or practice it, I'd go with other basic skill sets like household accounting and home economics. IMO the biggest problem facing the poor (and given, there are hundreds of problems, not just one) is the inability to manage household finances.

[Jimmyd]

...snip... "plans to train 750,000 English teachers there over the next five years"

From BBC.

...snip...

If Thailand would cooperate also with countries like the UK, USA, Australia and/or New Zealand and create a plan....to train some 43.000* new English teachers in the next 5 years it would give Thailand an enormous boost into the future.

...snip...

* Thailand has some 17.4 % (65M) of the Indian population of 1.130.000.000.

The math here is a bit wrong. Maybe more math teachers are in order too.

(Thailand has about 5.8% of the population of China, the 43,000 English teachers is correct, though.)

[steveromagnino]

In Thailand's case I think you are wrong about the importance of learning to speak English, remember the country's income relies heavily on tourism and may more so in the future. English will always be very important because it is the international language of travel and business.

Thailand seems not to have a problem in the tourism industry with existing english levels; major stumbling blocks are things like infrastructure, facilities management and service culture rather than language barriers. I deal regularly with major hotel chains wanting to come to THailand, and to be honest, not once has any of them said 'we would come but Thailand doesn't have enough english speakers'. The country can sustain about something between 12-20m tourists a year, best idea is to keep giving the tourists things to do and again, I don't see the problem being with english language skills; not perfect but then again neither are many other places.

Besides which tourism is the trade you take when you are useless at everything else; it is a crutch and it has crippled Thailand's development plus is destroying much of the attractive parts of the country.... better to get good at specific high value skills. Designing things, or making things, or services - that sort of thing.

Korea and Japan prove you don't need english at a mass level to be successful; you need to know how to do stuff. The people who are doing trade negotiations in Thailand, most have no problem at either hiring someone to translate, have already got a solid knowledge of english themselves or are dealing with trade partners from China, Korea, Japan or similar where english is not the language of business that farangs so often think it is.

Lest anyone think English is the magic answer, let's look at the Philippines; great english proficiency, total s**thole of a place with skant prospects; virtually every native Philippino I know has left or wants to leave.

in other words, yeah some people need to know english to review engineering contracts. But there is not much benefit in teaching 40 million rice and agricultural workers how to speak english on the off chance that like 10 of them will be reviewing engineering contracts. Teach them how to access information in their own language (and there will every wikipedia page plus 7 million academic articles and books translated into Thai for them this year!) and suddenly you might have farmer productivitiy increasing 20%. Couple that with basic life skills - goal setting, financing, financial planning etc and there you have a monster increase in productivity and self help.

Teaching english is a road to somewhere, but it ain't nearly as useful to the average working class Thai as the last 30 years of governments would like to make out. To truly learn english it requires emersion and intensity; something most law students seem to have a desire for (most law students learn in Thai, but some have better english than many first language speakers and are NOT afraid to use it), but almost no one in the provinces cares about, excluding those wanting to get into hospitality, business or er, curry type business.

Edited January 22, 2008 by steveromagnino

[Thai at Heart]

How about learning them (Thai's) Chinese?

Would it not make more sense?

Yes, Chinese is important, too, and perhaps easier to learn for Thai students. However, while Chinese is important in the region, so is English. Whether doing business with the Nanyang Chinese in Singapore, the Philippines or Vietnam, English is likely to be as helpful as Mandarin Chinese, and probably more so. A couple of years ago it was estimated that the number of people outside China learning Mandarin as a second language was about 20 million. At the same time the number of people in China alone learning English was about 250 million.

Chinese would be the logical third language for Thailand for dealing with the outside world. As more resources should be put into English, so they should go into Chinese as well, but English will open more doors.

Of course, all this implies a serious attempt to use education as a vehicle for change and advancement. While education is used primarily as a vehicle for containment and control, these developments won't occur and certainly won't be extended to the common people. The emergence of an analytical and critical approach to education IMHO won't come about as the result of planning, only by some unforeseen upheaval or, perhaps, by osmosis (by 2595, as Peace Blondie suggests).

I agree with most of what you said but the number of Chinese studying English is far out...far out.

What you probably read (or meant) is that this number of Chinese -ever- studied English at one point in their lives. So, it's a total number.

This is an excerpt from an article of 2006 and maybe the number increased since then:

"The ministry's statistics suggested that the current number of students enrolled on Chinese campuses amounted to 23 million, which is the world's largest group of foreign language learners."

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200603/2...327_253675.html

Of course that number (23M) has to be increased, and I think considerably, because there are many..many private institutions/evening schools teaching English, apart from the campuses. Also, many Chinese primary schools hire English teachers (not even qualified ones...) to boost their image but at the same time, the knowledge of the children. Many parents are very proud of their kids, starting to speak/read/write English, especially amongst the growing middle class.

They recognize the importance of English for the future of their children.....is that the same amongst Thai middle class ?

LaoPo

Thanks Lao Po. Yes, the numbers may be questioned, and I can't remember where I got the 250 million figure from, but it was bandied about a couple of years ago on the net. However, I see the figure of 300 million currently studying English in the PRC cited on the following site, and it seems a respectable source: http://www.teacher.org.cn/doc/ucedu200608/ucedu20060813.pdf

I guess the question is whether everyone's simply citing secondary sources and an urban legend's getting round or whether someone has actually officially totted up all the numbers. Still, if there are 23 million students on university campuses and you then add all the kids doing English in school plus all the people studying at night and on weekends, and language classes run by the PLA and government agencies, etc. in China, it will add up.

On the matter of how seriously English is taken in China vis-a-vis Thailand, I heard a chap from the British Council at a conference here three years ago saying that in China they'd started seriously boosting resources for teaching and learning English "10 years ago" (i.e. 1995). Thailand is falling further and further behind. I can't see the situation improving except for those who are already in a good position to improve their English here and/or abroad. The will just isn't really there.

Cheers.

Xangsamhua

As of 99, all primary students are supposed to be studying Pinyin in Chinese schools. How realistic this is in terms of claiming English study is debateable. But nonetheless it gives a basis in the Roman alphabet which definitely provides a building block to future study of english and any other language for that matter.

[LaoPo]

Important but considering that the majority of locals (it's apparently hard for a lot of folks to comprehend that most locals have nothing to do with tourism or their support industries whatsoever) never get the opportunity to use or practice it, I'd go with other basic skill sets like household accounting and home economics. IMO the biggest problem facing the poor (and given, there are hundreds of problems, not just one) is the inability to manage household finances.

The OP was about the UK's plan to train 750.000 English teachers in 5 years (in India) and my point was that Thailand could try and do the same.

That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be educated in other skills.

But, if the educational system doesn't provide the poor with the same how will they learn to manage household finances ?

LaoPo

[Heng]

But, if the educational system doesn't provide the poor with the same how will they learn to manage household finances ?

LaoPo

With the same what?

[LaoPo]

But, if the educational system doesn't provide the poor with the same how will they learn to manage household finances ?

LaoPo

With the same what?

Don't play the dummy Heng...you know what I meant when I wrote:

"That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be educated in other skills.

But, if the educational system doesn't provide the poor with [education of] the same [skills] how will they learn to manage household finances ?"

LaoPo

[Heng]

Ah. And no I didn't, because you didn't state it clearly.

I'm saying household finances and home economics are basic skills when compared to what other pie in the sky programs think people need.

[LaoPo]

Ah. And no I didn't, because you didn't state it clearly.

I'm saying household finances and home economics are basic skills when compared to what other pie in the sky programs think people need.

I agree with the latter, but you, being a better 'expert' on Thai education than most of us, must surely know IF the educational system provide students with such basic economics...?

LaoPo

[jbowman1993]

Education is a serious issue, and improvement of this should be everyone's top priority. Sadly, politics of expediency are the rule of the day, not only here, but the world over. Lets all try to effect change, however we can. Donate books to a local school, read to children, anything can help!

[Heng]

Ah. And no I didn't, because you didn't state it clearly.

I'm saying household finances and home economics are basic skills when compared to what other pie in the sky programs think people need.

I agree with the latter, but you, being a better 'expert' on Thai education than most of us, must surely know IF the educational system provide students with such basic economics...?

LaoPo

Your assumption is a bit off, LP, as I've yet to study a day in the free education system here. My limited experience was at an international section MBA program where finance wise, what was taught was opposite to what the Heng's teach at home... that is, not to buy into the finance spiel that you *need to be leveraged or in debt* to maximize your capital, to prefer institutional risk to market risk, and so forth and so forth.

As to what the educational system "provides," again, I'm not sure of, but IMO one can assume that across the country, the families and parents of many students are letting them down on the home front. For instance I'm just now becoming more involved with the education of some of my nieces and nephews as their parents have to work more than I do and I consider it good practice for when my own kid(s) get to the same stages. One of the things their school does to "promote financial responsibility" is have students open bank accounts with the school, to try to have them deposit a % of their daily lunch/treats allowance from their parents, and to learn to calculcate interest and in general learn basic savings. Well, there we have a tool, that without parental guidance IMO is pretty much just a silly routine that the kids will get very little out of. Some parents completely ignore the program while some parents do useless things like putting several hundred thousand Baht in their kid's accounts without any lesson to go with it: like actually showing these kids where the money comes from, what profit and loss is (from this lot of flowers, we only make a few hundred Baht... from that let's say I give you 40 Baht to take to school today, that leaves me with XXX Baht to replace the existing inventory and sell again...), what happens if we decide to make or not make a particular purchase (let's say you decide to get something at 7-11 instead of having breakfast at home... which costs XX Baht since a pack of eggs costs this much... a jug of milk costs this much... etc.).... anyway, I think you get the idea. Would I expect my nephew's/niece's teacher to go into such detail with each student? No. Do I feel that similar tools in the present state educational system are there for high potential long term use by kids and their families? Yes. Is it also lacking? Of course.