Can We Make Chiang Mai A Better Place To Live?

[mobs00]

I partially posted this on another topic but I think it is deserving of one of its own.

Does anyone have any statistics on the amount of exhaust fumes a car that is not tuned up properly releases into the air? Also, any info on the amount of money an individual driver could save if they to have their car tuned up? I think this may be a good way to reduce the toxins in the air by showing people how much money they could save by getting their car to run properly.

Maybe we could also educate the school children. We could make posters of Thai cartoon characters showing why it is harmful to drive a car that emits fumes. Has anyone seen this before? We could get older students to teach the younger ones. My girlfriend is in her last year at Rajabaht University and may be able to get some of the students there involved with organizing and distributing the message; kind of like the community service type things you see them doing everywhere.

I think it may work if we could get people to see how much money they could save by fixing their vehicle; maybe some would do it and some would later follow. If it costs 2000 baht per year to tune up a car and they could save 10000 baht a year in petrol I think some would do it. The key would be to educate people and show them how to do it. Show them where there are shops that can fix their car. Maybe even a newspaper advert that explains a bit of the benefits and lists a few auto shops that can do the work. These shops could also be approached for a bit of advertising money to help cover the cost of placing an ad in a local paper.

[kash]

New laws from 1st of January this year. Road tests will be set up to check the vehicles exhaust levels, and various stickers will be applied if over the allowed level ... they've got some fancy machines to check the levels etc, in close cooperation with CMU.

[cmsally]

They had some of those emissions testing machines a few years ago.

This can be a step in the right direction but it needs proper enforcement so as it doesn't become just another cash cow for the police.

[Blinky Bill]

I partially posted this on another topic but I think it is deserving of one of its own.

Does anyone have any statistics on the amount of exhaust fumes a car that is not tuned up properly releases into the air? Also, any info on the amount of money an individual driver could save if they to have their car tuned up? I think this may be a good way to reduce the toxins in the air by showing people how much money they could save by getting their car to run properly.

Maybe we could also educate the school children. We could make posters of Thai cartoon characters showing why it is harmful to drive a car that emits fumes. Has anyone seen this before? We could get older students to teach the younger ones. My girlfriend is in her last year at Rajabaht University and may be able to get some of the students there involved with organizing and distributing the message; kind of like the community service type things you see them doing everywhere.

I think it may work if we could get people to see how much money they could save by fixing their vehicle; maybe some would do it and some would later follow. If it costs 2000 baht per year to tune up a car and they could save 10000 baht a year in petrol I think some would do it. The key would be to educate people and show them how to do it. Show them where there are shops that can fix their car. Maybe even a newspaper advert that explains a bit of the benefits and lists a few auto shops that can do the work. These shops could also be approached for a bit of advertising money to help cover the cost of placing an ad in a local paper.

Neither of your attached images are from Thailand not to mention Chiang Mai.

[kash]

I partially posted this on another topic but I think it is deserving of one of its own.

Does anyone have any statistics on the amount of exhaust fumes a car that is not tuned up properly releases into the air? Also, any info on the amount of money an individual driver could save if they to have their car tuned up? I think this may be a good way to reduce the toxins in the air by showing people how much money they could save by getting their car to run properly.

Maybe we could also educate the school children. We could make posters of Thai cartoon characters showing why it is harmful to drive a car that emits fumes. Has anyone seen this before? We could get older students to teach the younger ones. My girlfriend is in her last year at Rajabaht University and may be able to get some of the students there involved with organizing and distributing the message; kind of like the community service type things you see them doing everywhere.

I think it may work if we could get people to see how much money they could save by fixing their vehicle; maybe some would do it and some would later follow. If it costs 2000 baht per year to tune up a car and they could save 10000 baht a year in petrol I think some would do it. The key would be to educate people and show them how to do it. Show them where there are shops that can fix their car. Maybe even a newspaper advert that explains a bit of the benefits and lists a few auto shops that can do the work. These shops could also be approached for a bit of advertising money to help cover the cost of placing an ad in a local paper.

Neither of your attached images are from Thailand not to mention Chiang Mai.

Whee, I didn't see you at Harvard - did you do a mail-in degree?

[Maejo Man]

Whee, I didn't see you at Harvard - did you do a mail-in degree?

Obviously a septic BB and doesn't realise that you were at Monash

[Blinky Bill]

Whee, I didn't see you at Harvard - did you do a mail-in degree?

Obviously a septic BB and doesn't realise that you were at Monash

Yeah a bloody septic tank. Most of them buy their degrees don't they?

Actually it was Melbourne University where I studied at great length in how to look at detail in attached images.

[mobs00]

Wow BB, I didn't know I was being watched so carefully. I couldn't find any pictures of actual vehicles from CM emitting exhaust fumes so I used these. Are you telling me you have never seen this in Chiang Mai? I guess someone had to put me in my place and I was glad to see you missed the point of my post entirely.

Edited January 21, 2008 by mobs00

[Blinky Bill]

Wow BB, I didn't know I was being watched so carefully. I couldn't find any pictures of actual vehicles from CM emitting exhaust fumes so I used these. Are you telling me you have never seen this in Chiang Mai? I guess someone had to put me in my place and I was glad to see you missed the point of my post entirely.

I am telling you I have never seen cars with foreign plates being pulled over by non Thai officials to check the exhaust emissions and I have never seen busses and other vehicles with foreign plates travelling on Thai roads belching plumes of unburnt diesel fuel. Sure have seen plenty of Thai registered vehicles doing it though.

If you are gonna make posts re Thailand why attach images that don't come from Thailand. I didn't miss the point of your post at all - I just chose to ignore it. Surely you must realise that you are merely repeating what many others have said in numerous other posts long before you opened this thread.

[tigerbeer]

this song came to mind when i read the topic of this thread.

There comes a time

When we head a certain call

When the world must come together as one

There are people dying

And it's time to lend a hand to life

The greatest gift of all

We can't go on

Pretneding day by day

That someone (Songteaws,tuktuks), somewhere (Chiang Mai) will soon make a change

We are all a part of

God's great big family

And the truth, you know love is all we need

[Chorus]

We are the world

We are the children

We are the ones who make a brighter day

So let's start giving

There's a choice we're making

We're saving our own lives

It's true we'll make a better day

Just you and me

[malcy]

I wish someone would teach the songtaew drivers that there are 3 other gears below 4th that they could try pulling away in

[Ajarn]

Life is fine for me here. I'd say to leave yourself out of the fray and relax. Let the Thais take care of chiang mai. I think they have done well, so far...

[Ulysses G.]

Let the Thais take care of chiang mai. I think they have done well, so far...

Not a common opinion on Thai Visa!

[Priceless]

Here's a song that comes to my mind whenever the Chiang Mai 'environmental disaster' is brought up:

POLLUTION

If you visit American city,

You will find it very pretty.

Just two things of which you must beware:

Dont drink the water and dont breathe the air.

Pollution, pollution,

They got smog and sewage and mud.

Turn on your tap and get hot and cold running crud.

See the halibuts and the sturgeons

Being wiped out by detergents.

Fish gotta swim and birds gotta fly,

But they dont last long if they try.

Pollution, pollution,

You can use the latest toothpaste,

And then rinse your mouth with industrial waste.

Just go out for a breath of air,

And you'll be ready for medicare.

The city streets are really quite a thrill.

If the hoods dont get you, the monoxide will.

Pollution, pollution,

Wear a gas mask and a veil.

Then you can breathe, long as you don't inhale.

Lots of things there that you can drink,

But stay away from the kitchen sink.

The breakfast garbage that you throw in to the bay,

They drink at lunch in San Jose.

So go to the city, see the crazy people there.

Like lambs to the slaughter,

They're drinking the water

And breathing <cough> the air.

(Tom Lehrer, ~1965)

/ Priceless

Edited January 21, 2008 by Priceless

[Austhaied]

Life is fine for me here. I'd say to leave yourself out of the fray and relax. Let the Thais take care of chiang mai. I think they have done well, so far...

Well said. I am also content here. I guess with a "half full glass" the skies are always brighter.

As for the car emissions here. They are definitely improving rather than worsening. It was worse when i first came here in 95.

There are loads more cars on the roads now as well, so i don't think the Chiang Mai Thais are doing that bad.

[Mapguy]

I think it is appalling how many cheap shot artists there are on this board who fancy they have a sense of humor. The original post on this thread addressed a valid concern for all people who reside in Chiang Mai (or anywhere, really) about air pollution. The poster offerred, as an opener, some suggestions about what might be done to improve the situation in Chiang Mai. Perhaps you don't agree with some or all of the suggestions, perhaps you do, but that's not my point. Look, fellas --- those of you who have a lot to say but are unable to stay on topic and say something constructive --- please share your "humor" among yourselves by PM or go enjoy each other at your favorite bar or wherever. But please don't get your jollies here. My suggestion has nothing to do with limiting free speech. it has to do with common curtesy.

[Ta22]

Thailand had been great so far over the last 10 years i am here ,

seldom do i come across one that dislike it ..

from you last few post , your idea of thai , had been a rip off country or all the bad thing you can imagine ,

may i ask you . WHY ARE YOU HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

instead of trying to change othes , why not you change yourself a little .

you suggest is great in some sence . and i do agree with some point.. but

why not leave the thai to take care of chiangmai , after all You are just a GUEST -

so i best you keep it that way .

you can alway go to other country which is so much better , LIKE AMERCIA or UK >

since there would not be people without driving licence , and car will be put to strict test before being put on the zROad

of yeh try SINGAPORE .. is a FINE city for you

[Mapguy]

Thailand had been great so far over the last 10 years i am here ,

seldom do i come across one that dislike it ..

from you last few post , your idea of thai , had been a rip off country or all the bad thing you can imagine ,

may i ask you . WHY ARE YOU HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE ?

instead of trying to change othes , why not you change yourself a little .

you suggest is great in some sence . and i do agree with some point.. but

why not leave the thai to take care of chiangmai , after all You are just a GUEST -

so i best you keep it that way .

you can alway go to other country which is so much better , LIKE AMERCIA or UK >

since there would not be people without driving licence , and car will be put to strict test before being put on the zROad

of yeh try SINGAPORE .. is a FINE city for you

I don't think that the original spirit of this thread was to bash Thailand at all. Air pollution in Thailand is a problem recognized by both the king --- who is apparently devoted to "green" causes --- and by the government. They, as well as others around the world (maybe not in Kazbleechistan or among some die hards within the Bush administration in America) realize that general health is threatened by pollutants in the air. That problem doesn't go away wherever you are, really, so saying pack up and move out if you don't like it here isn't really a helpful solution to the problem.

For those of you who think there is no problem, I suggest you do some further research. It wasn't that long ago that an American tobacco company had physicians flogging Camel cigarettes, a particularly virulent brand!! Fortunately, the medical profession has since been educated. Or maybe there are a few less naive doctors, or physicians for sale, these days.

A previous poster put up a verse dated 1965 (as I recall) by one of my favorite songsters of that era about nasty air pollution elsewhere....43 years ago. Couldn't be truer! That situation, to say the least, has in large measure been improved in many places, if not in Chiang Mai and Beijing (where they like to jiggle the numbers to reassure the world prior to the next Olympics). Where things have improved hasn't been an issue about where the people who lived there were from; it has been about solving a problem that affects everyone.

I believe that the squeaky wheel does get greased. Denying a problem or suggesting that "George [NOT George Bush!] do [take care of] it!" is not helpful. In Chiang Mai city and province, it is clear that there are both education and enforcement issues regarding existing laws. I suggest that both education and enforcement are necessary as well as a couple of other things.

There is another "E" word, as well. It is "economics." You have to make change as much as possible in the economic self-interest of those whose behavior you wish to change. In Chiang Mai, that's principally both farmers and the tourism industry. Both are also important to the country as a whole. Thailand has had truly remarkable success convincing farmers to NOT grow opium. That problem makes this one a piece of cake to fix!

There is still another "E" word: "ease." Whenever it is possible, change has to be made easy to understand and to do. Not burning trash and fields is pretty simple, BUT...

...education, enforcement, economics and ease. They do go together.

You should try to get the mule to understand that you want him to get up off his a** [sorry, couldn't help the pun!]. If talk doesn't work, you have to hit the mule over the head to get your point across. Unfortunately, mules aren't smart enough most of the time to understand that it is really easy to get up off their haunches and that it is worth doing so if they wants to eat. There are a lot of stubborn mules, unfortunately.

If I were to make a criticism of governmental policy and practice in this part of Thailand, I would suggest that the recent applaudable strong policy declaration of the governor of Chiang Mai will mean nothing unless it is followed up by both education AND enforcement. If there is anything characteristic of this province compared to others, it is the lax enforcement of existing laws. It is understandable and purposeful not to make enforcement so tough as to blow people away, BUT the lack of enforcement of several laws, including pollution laws, in Chiang Mai which are clearly in the common good is egregious.

In the meantime, perhaps a little bit of charity is appropriate. How about a fund for purchasing face masks for traffic police?

Anon!

Edited January 21, 2008 by Mapguy

[lannarebirth]

When I read the title to this thread "Can we make Thailand a better place to live?", I thought "Great!, someone's finally going to stop complaining and talk about what they themselves are doing to improve the quality of life for all of us here in Chiang Mai. In prior threads I've noted what I do and I thought others were about to do the same. How disappointing to find another "squeaky wheel" thread.

I'm not sure how long some of you have been here, but there's few things about Thailand you need to know. It's a developing country. The rule of law is not that important here and it is applied subjectively if at all. There is very poor distribution of wealth amongst the populace. Public healthcare is not that great and neither is the education system. Gaining political office is considered a path to riches. Most importantly, there are very entrenched interests that don't want any of that to change. I would place all these issues above our need to have clean air 12 months per year. That said I do what I can to improve the environment around me and hope you do too. Would love to hear what that may be.

[mobs00]

It just blows me away that so many of you have personally attacked me and my post. I was looking for suggestions and a bit of facts so that I could implement my ideas. Maybe some of you didn't realize that I was going to do the work and this doesn't require you to get off the couch or turn off your computer. Unlike so many others I wasn't complaining about the situation, I was trying to find a way to make the air that both you and I breathe a little better. I bet if you had young kids or grandkids living with you here in Chiang Mai you may have a different opinion, but then again maybe not....

[Mapguy]

When I read the title to this thread "Can we make Thailand a better place to live?", I thought "Great!, someone's finally going to stop complaining and talk about what they themselves are doing to improve the quality of life for all of us here in Chiang Mai. In prior threads I've noted what I do and I thought others were about to do the same. How disappointing to find another "squeaky wheel" thread.

I'm not sure how long some of you have been here, but there's few things about Thailand you need to know. It's a developing country. The rule of law is not that important here and it is applied subjectively if at all. There is very poor distribution of wealth amongst the populace. Public healthcare is not that great and neither is the education system. Gaining political office is considered a path to riches. Most importantly, there are very entrenched interests that don't want any of that to change. I would place all these issues above our need to have clean air 12 months per year. That said I do what I can to improve the environment around me and hope you do too. Would love to hear what that may be.

Sorry, but I must disagree with your approach to this issue.

Motivating your comment, in my view, is a VERY cynical and patronizing view of this country.

I am no "Holly Golightly." Yes, Thailand is objectively a less economically advantaged country than many. Yes, there are very serious social and economic discotinuities to deal with. So, have most economically developed countries to deal with, including the "richest." But it is, in my view, quite remarkable what Thailand has accomplished over a relatively short span of time. And Thailand, among East Asian nations, is quite remarkable in its relative political and economic stability. Yes, I am aware of how many coups and changes of government there have been and the relatively recent "Bhat Crisis." Please, however, consider adding additional and comparative historical and geographical perspective to your thinking!

Boarding another train of thought in a closing moment, if you care about where you are, why not try making a contribution to improving the situation here, not patronizing the country or the people.

Anon!

[Blinky Bill]

It just blows me away that so many of you have personally attacked me and my post. I was looking for suggestions and a bit of facts so that I could implement my ideas. Maybe some of you didn't realize that I was going to do the work and this doesn't require you to get off the couch or turn off your computer. Unlike so many others I wasn't complaining about the situation, I was trying to find a way to make the air that both you and I breathe a little better. I bet if you had young kids or grandkids living with you here in Chiang Mai you may have a different opinion, but then again maybe not....

How much have you got? I'm willing to put a few mill on this one, even odds.

[Ta22]

how would i put it , there is really a sharp contrast in thinking for the west and the east ,

helping is not alway the best - and some time .. do ask if help is needed ,

i agree in some point but again .. not all of it .

as we do not see on the same line .

the trick is not to tune the car but to go GReen and not DRIVE car ..

the Trick is not to pot online and make a hoha of it and think people are personally attacking your SUPER IDEA .

the trick is to do more and speak less .

tell us what had you done so far beside .. in my view complain about what that is known for ages ..

why not you go build a nuclear fusion plant and then go SUPER GREEN .. and maybe invent the next Water fuel car - ..

there is many problem . not every guy in chiangmai who have a income of 5k can afford your so called CHEAP 2k tune up ,

with fuel price so high , and rental and daily goods price at thai living standard .

is easy for us to just say why not get a engine tune up ,

Why not do a engine swap ,

why not go LPG , why not do this why not do that ..

there is a million money spending way to save money , and save the earth .

thailand is a growing country .. sometime is best we let it grow ,

notthing personal about all this .. i am just spending my time .. surfing . and sharing my view .. if you don't like my view , get over it and skip it . but i alway say what i feel even when my spelling suck whahaha is just great work out for my finger

in a perfect world .. thing suppose to work in a perfect way , but we live in a imperfect world run by imperfect people .

so . what is Next , Tuk tuk create problem . so we get raid of tuk tuk , . red taxi create problem .. go buy new cars . or get raid of it .. post strict inspection stardard , so their old cars can't pass and force them out ..

what is NEXT . soon will be this and that .,. and the mext thing you know .. red taxi to bus station will be 100 baht .

you may say .. what ONLY 100 baht . don't be a cheapstake . . but thing don't just work as you see ..is all link up .. like the GREAT ECO system .

when one price go about another follow .. soon you will be paying fired rice at 50 baht . and so on and so for ..

in my view chaingmai is the best PLACE IN ASIA > if not the world ..

Why go reinvent the whell so you can have a AMERCIAN style of living in thailand .

do try to blend in instead of being a RED NOSE RAIN Deer.

.

many thing can be improve . but like one of the old post i read some years ago . - if you don't like the town you live in chances is the next town would not please you too .

if i recall correctly YOU DO DRIVE ONE OF THOSE BIG CAR > THAT DRINK ALOT OF FUEL >

AMERCIAN IDEA - 3000 cc - Turbo CARS .

-- i suggest if you want your kids to have fresh air . Stay at Doi suthep - right after Doi pui .

--

anyway .

many point bring up by other Post had some interesting point .

but history have it way of explaining itself ..

how about -- DRUG thaT IS iMPORTED INTO THE sTATE BY THE MILITARY DURING THE VIETCOM WAR.

some time ago someone complain about how he hate smoker .

ok -- why not we ban all bar from smoking ..

ok then this and that .. we have some kinda fight with people drinking beer . and whiskey ..

why not we educated and restrict beer . in bar ..

stop selling beer after 10 pm ..

i think we should BAN soft drink .. cos many illness is related to eating fast food . and drinking soft drink .. like smoking . is as bad

i think this is bad and that is bad .. i think we should educate the mass that

why not we all sell our cars and this way , not need to buy Fuel , and no pollution at all .

and stop eating fast food and farm our own organic food ,

seriously There is just too many thing that can dismay you .

why not just sit back .. have a nice cold beer .

and live life as it come . there is many way . that you can get away from pollution .

one option is to wear a mask .

A mask cost 100 baht or so . maybe a good one cost 500 baht or more .

this way your problem is solve with less then 1k .

and other who can't afford that 2k tune up you speaking about . can save their money also .

i am saving up to buy a small island .

i hope by 45- 50 i can buy it .

last check the price is about 80 million baht - 120 million ..

when i move there , there will only be a doz cars on that island and all will be my cars so i blame no one if there is pollution

sometime the best way to solve problem is let the problem solve itself .

-

Another point to note . you did give a great bussiness plan .

not much people you would help , but you will sure .. generate more pollution .. cos the cars that is sending your poster will be driving around town ,more job , and more people get hired at workshop . so there take red taxi to work , have more money . so drink more .. who know. if god forbbiden you do knock down another motorist or another motorist choose to had a go at your 3000cc turbo car . he might happen to be one of the guys that as a result of your making chiangmai a better place .. he got more work and now can afford to drink his EXTRA SHOT OF LAO KAO >

find peace in yourself my friend .

my best wishes to your kids and grand kids

i hope i will have mine soon in a year or two

you free to come join me at my wedding ? is at Sukothai

come check out the relax life style of village farmer is alot of fun

not trying to tease you , but . i just order about 200 litre of LAO kao .

i believe we can make friends at the oddest place you can imagine

[Ulysses G.]

Clear, concise, clever.

[realthaideal]

Mobs, I think you're actually onto something here. I also agree the mean spiritedness is over the top here, and as bad as any actual harping on about the environment they are criticizing as well. One is pollution for the lungs, the other for the eyes and brain. YOu should have used pix that you got yourself in the city though ! It's easy enough, and it was a use of bad n easy evidence. But some of those worried complainers need to take the time to go out and have a photo trip or something / anything to help them put the fun back in CM again - whether for pollution pix or sightseeing. CM has been painfully beautiful the last week- great air, nice breezes, starry skies at night, mild weather. COmplaining seems out of line with much of the reality.

But, if you wanna take your idea further I say go for it. As others pt out, we are guests and may be viewed as pushy, but yes, it's still possible to have influence and contribute. We shouldn't count ourselves out completely. But there may be limits by which helping suddenly becomes rudeness on the part of an over-controlling Farang. I think it's great you are trying to work along lines of thought that might influence the Thais. Make your ideas and evidence a little more solid and maybe you will find some local leaders or ppl at the University who are wanting to take on your project or the ideas from it. But you have to go do your homework and find them. They have been listed various times in other threads here and in the BKK Post and CM Mail. Go for it.

[Ajarn]

Let the Thais take care of chiang mai. I think they have done well, so far...

Not a common opinion on Thai Visa!

I never suggested it was a common opinion. Just mine.

[Rasseru]

Clear, concise, clever.

In equal measure?

[Priceless]

I have just realized that my two latest posts to this thread have been deleted by somebody. Though I know and accept that moderators are entrusted with the authority to delete whatever they please, I fail to understand what was offensive in these two posts. The first one basically just contained a graph from the Pollution Control Department showing the current level of small particle pollution. The second post was just an ackowledgement of George's comment to my post. I would appreciate if the person who deleted my posts sent me a PM explaining what was offensve in them, so that I can avoid such statements in the future.

On a more general note, I thought it was customary for a moderator to ackowledge when he/she has deleted posts. Doing it anonymously I think is not really in keeping with the generally friendly and open atmosphere of Thai Visa.

/ Priceless

[cmsally]

I have just realized that my two latest posts to this thread have been deleted by somebody. Though I know and accept that moderators are entrusted with the authority to delete whatever they please, I fail to understand what was offensive in these two posts. The first one basically just contained a graph from the Pollution Control Department showing the current level of small particle pollution. The second post was just an ackowledgement of George's comment to my post. I would appreciate if the person who deleted my posts sent me a PM explaining what was offensve in them, so that I can avoid such statements in the future.

On a more general note, I thought it was customary for a moderator to ackowledge when he/she has deleted posts. Doing it anonymously I think is not really in keeping with the generally friendly and open atmosphere of Thai Visa.

/ Priceless

Maybe here?

Pollution topic

[mobs00]

Well Ta22, again you post another GEM. Your ranting and raving and not being able to comprehend my post or failure to acknowledge it for what it's worth only solidifies my view. Again I will sum it up for you in layman's terms; I am not complaining, I am asking for a bit of help in gathering some info so I can implement my idea. Your failure to see this or ignorance there of, shows by your lack of understanding. Is anyone forcing you to overeat or forcing you to drink soda or forcing you to drink lao kao? Probably not, but everyday we are forced to breathe the fumes from cars that are not properly tuned. So instead of going on an off topic rant, why not read the post and any help would be much appreciated.

Layman's Terms

Edited January 22, 2008 by mobs00