Need A Wp To Work For A Foreign Company Operating From Abroad?

[MART]

OK I posted this question in another thread already but did not get any answer so I'm trying to force things a bit...

I read in other threads that:

1. one is supposed to have a work permit if they want to work in Thailand for a foreign company which entirely operates from abroad.

2. only companies which are registered in Thailand are allowed/supposed to apply for work permits.

--> If 1 is correct, how come the Thai consulates issue 1 year B visas for foreign businessmen travelling to Thailand in order to meet actual or potential business partners (I am deriving this from the paperwork they want to see: letter of recommendation from foreign company + letter(s) of invitation from Thai company(ies)) ?

Is meeting business partners on behalf of a foreign company actually not considered as working?

--> If 1 and 2 are correct, it would mean that foreign companies necessarily need to set up a branch in Thailand in order to be able to legally send representatives to Thailand, wouldn't it?

I'm a bit confused, I guess one or both of my assumptions aren't correct...

[fritiof]

That´s a good question and one that I would also like an answer too.

[Jimjim]

I think it's not really regulated and hard for authorities to regulate it, so, as of now it's probably not a big problem unless they start some "crackdown".

[MART]

I think it's not really regulated and hard for authorities to regulate it...

With all due respect I would rather argue that there is no area of Thai society which authorities try to regulate more than foreign labour and visa matters...

so, as of now it's probably not a big problem unless they start some "crackdown".

Maybe but that was not my point. I was not asking if rules were enforced but far more what are the rules...

Do not get me wrong, I do not expect a perfectly logical way of thinking from Thai legislators. But what I pointed out is just too much of a contradiction to be true!

That´s a good question and one that I would also like an answer too.

Either you're right and then it seems that no one here has an answer yet or you're wrong and my question is too stupid for one to even bother answering it...

Edited January 22, 2008 by MART

[MART]

OK I found a Thai document where they actually do make a difference between "to work" and "to do business". Unfortunately it does not give any explanation as to what this difference is.

http://www.bia.co.th/chapter20.pdf

It goes like this (under Categories of Non-Immigrant visa; page 3/10):

"A non-immigrant visa may be applied for at a Thai embassy or consulate. A Non- Immigrant B Visa is issued to applicants who wish to enter Thailand to work OR to do business."

And further under Three year visa; page 4/10:

"With effect from September 2006, it is possible to apply for a three year visa to foreigners who wish to conduct business (but not to work) in Thailand. The applicant must be a businessman who runs a business in the country in which the application is submitted."

So they really do make a difference between WORKING on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand and CONDUCTING BUSINESS on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand. Which this difference is remains unclear. Anybody has a clue?

Edited January 23, 2008 by MART

[moe666]

You may want to repost in the business section.

[Guest]

" who wish to conduct business (but not to work) "

Think this refers to business people coming here to make contacts, deal with suppliers etc but who are based outside Thailand.

[Strap]

OK I found a Thai document where they actually do make a difference between "to work" and "to do business". Unfortunately it does not give any explanation as to what this difference is.

http://www.bia.co.th/chapter20.pdf

It goes like this (under Categories of Non-Immigrant visa; page 3/10):

"A non-immigrant visa may be applied for at a Thai embassy or consulate. A Non- Immigrant B Visa is issued to applicants who wish to enter Thailand to work OR to do business."

And further under Three year visa; page 4/10:

"With effect from September 2006, it is possible to apply for a three year visa to foreigners who wish to conduct business (but not to work) in Thailand. The applicant must be a businessman who runs a business in the country in which the application is submitted."

So they really do make a difference between WORKING on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand and CONDUCTING BUSINESS on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand. Which this difference is remains unclear. Anybody has a clue?

Maybe I can help you see there way of thinking a little,

I am a partner in 2 company's ( share holder / owner ) ,I don't work in either of them ,I can get a no-imm 'B visa because of this without to much hassle etc. As a business partner.

Also With a non-imm b Visa if I become employed by any of them or another company in Thailand ( as I am employed by a different company ) Having a non-B visa is required to apply for a work permit and makes things alot smoother.

A share holder /owner is not working . If you are only a business partner you cannot conduct any work yourself.

Hope it helps some.

[jstumbo]

OK I found a Thai document where they actually do make a difference between "to work" and "to do business". Unfortunately it does not give any explanation as to what this difference is.

http://www.bia.co.th/chapter20.pdf

It goes like this (under Categories of Non-Immigrant visa; page 3/10):

"A non-immigrant visa may be applied for at a Thai embassy or consulate. A Non- Immigrant B Visa is issued to applicants who wish to enter Thailand to work OR to do business."

And further under Three year visa; page 4/10:

"With effect from September 2006, it is possible to apply for a three year visa to foreigners who wish to conduct business (but not to work) in Thailand. The applicant must be a businessman who runs a business in the country in which the application is submitted."

So they really do make a difference between WORKING on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand and CONDUCTING BUSINESS on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand. Which this difference is remains unclear. Anybody has a clue?

I think because of the way the laws are written it is so vague so they can pretty much enforce it however they want. I am still trying to figure out if I need a work permit when I work for a US company and I go to the factory in Thailand and inspect a shipment before it leaves the factory, talk with about new products, check on the status of orders and make sure they are on schedule, or if I work with the factoy to make sure packaging is correct. All of these things to me seem to be doing business.

If I come in for a week each month and take care of these things I might be ok. But now that more of our business is moving to Thailand it makes more sense to make my home here instead of China. So now I will be here for 3+ weeks a month with trips to other countries in the area to visit other factories. Now are they going to say that I am working and need a work permit since I spend most of my time here? Or would I still be doing business, which I am, just more of it, so it requires me to be in Thailand more. I still work for the same company, do the same job, just spend more time in Thailand.

No one has been able to give me a definative answer. I think it is just because no one can really tell and the only way I will be able to tell is if immigration or the labor department takes me away sometime. I have tried sending emails to labor department and embassies, but I never get an answer from them. I think they don't know either.

[Jimjim]

No one has been able to give me a definative answer. I think it is just because no one can really tell and the only way I will be able to tell is if immigration or the labor department takes me away sometime. I have tried sending emails to labor department and embassies, but I never get an answer from them. I think they don't know either.

Exactly my point. I've read about this before and it's not heavily regulated because many of the government officials just don't know how to deal with it. So, to the OP, if there are rules than not many know what they are. I recently read, in the last few months, that some department of the Thai government was trying to figure out a way to get people who come to work in Thailand, even if just for a short few months stint, and are paid by their employer abroad, to pay Thai taxes because they're working in Thailand. Evidently, logistics and the absense of procedure is hampering these wishes.

In the end, to get a work permit in Thailand you have to set up a company in Thailand, I think, even if it's just a branch of an abroad company. You've got to register it, etc.

[laxman1960]

To be perfectly legal you need a work permit to come here and inspect facilities etc. that is considered work by the letter of the law however no one who doesn't live here bothers with it.

Living here nearly full time I would strongly recommend you get a work permit. No one will mess with you until you win some major contract from a Thai competitor then you better watch out.

Dan

OK I found a Thai document where they actually do make a difference between "to work" and "to do business". Unfortunately it does not give any explanation as to what this difference is.

http://www.bia.co.th/chapter20.pdf

It goes like this (under Categories of Non-Immigrant visa; page 3/10):

"A non-immigrant visa may be applied for at a Thai embassy or consulate. A Non- Immigrant B Visa is issued to applicants who wish to enter Thailand to work OR to do business."

And further under Three year visa; page 4/10:

"With effect from September 2006, it is possible to apply for a three year visa to foreigners who wish to conduct business (but not to work) in Thailand. The applicant must be a businessman who runs a business in the country in which the application is submitted."

So they really do make a difference between WORKING on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand and CONDUCTING BUSINESS on behalf of a foreign company in Thailand. Which this difference is remains unclear. Anybody has a clue?

I think because of the way the laws are written it is so vague so they can pretty much enforce it however they want. I am still trying to figure out if I need a work permit when I work for a US company and I go to the factory in Thailand and inspect a shipment before it leaves the factory, talk with about new products, check on the status of orders and make sure they are on schedule, or if I work with the factoy to make sure packaging is correct. All of these things to me seem to be doing business.

If I come in for a week each month and take care of these things I might be ok. But now that more of our business is moving to Thailand it makes more sense to make my home here instead of China. So now I will be here for 3+ weeks a month with trips to other countries in the area to visit other factories. Now are they going to say that I am working and need a work permit since I spend most of my time here? Or would I still be doing business, which I am, just more of it, so it requires me to be in Thailand more. I still work for the same company, do the same job, just spend more time in Thailand.

No one has been able to give me a definative answer. I think it is just because no one can really tell and the only way I will be able to tell is if immigration or the labor department takes me away sometime. I have tried sending emails to labor department and embassies, but I never get an answer from them. I think they don't know either.

[crocodilexp]

...some department of the Thai government was trying to figure out a way to get people who come to work in Thailand, even if just for a short few months stint, and are paid by their employer abroad, to pay Thai taxes because they're working in Thailand. Evidently, logistics and the absense of procedure is hampering these wishes.

That's an excellent point, Jimjim. I know quite a few people who are able to work remotely for U.S. based companies, and choose to live in Thailand due to low costs and high pleasures of living. They get their pay in the U.S. and pay all their taxes in the U.S.

It can only be beneficial to Thailand to collect the tax money from such people. Of course, very few of these people would go through time-consuming hoops just to benefit Thai tax authorities (instead of IRS), so it's essential to make the paperwork minimal.

[ericthai]

I have the same thing, work for a US company but live in Thailand becuase it's cheaper for my company to send me back and forth each month. I get paid in the US from a US company, I always have a 1 year Non-b visa, so how do I get a work permit if we dont have a company here.. You say this is considered work so we need a work permit, so working for a company abroad how does one get a Thai work permit??

[Arkady]

" who wish to conduct business (but not to work) "

Think this refers to business people coming here to make contacts, deal with suppliers etc but who are based outside Thailand.

I agree with this interpretation and I don't believe it is intended to legalize people who are really based in Thailand and working here long term. However, it is clearly possible for foreigners to have work permits while employed by a foreign company with no establishment here but I can only think of the case foreign coorespondents where this is actually applied. They need to work for foreign media organization recognized by the Thai authorities and go through a special process to get personal approval. Thus I, while there is no regulation against it, Immigration and the Labor Ministry only allow it in special cases.

In any case, it would not be in the interests of a foreign company to support an application for a work permit for an employee in Thailand because, under the "permanent establishment" rule, they would be deemed to be operating a business in Thailand and could be invited to pay corporate income tax on income arbitrarily assessed by the Revenue Dept. So it could be a spectacular own goal that would cost a lot of money to correct.

If the employer is serious about supporting an employee or employees in Thailand and the business generated is substantial enough for them, they should set up a local company or representative office. Alternatively you could set up a local company yourself. Americans theoretically can get work permits under the Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations but I have never heard of anyone doing this and don't know, if it can be done in practice. Other foreigners other than journalists need a local employer. Foreigners working here without proper documentation and not paying tax was one of things the tightening of visa regulations for frequent visitors was designed to prevent and, although I don't like the general increase in mindless xenophobia in Thailand, I can't say I blame them in doing this. Western countries are much stricter on illegal workers and tax evaders.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Arkady

[Jimjim]

I have the same thing, work for a US company but live in Thailand becuase it's cheaper for my company to send me back and forth each month. I get paid in the US from a US company, I always have a 1 year Non-b visa, so how do I get a work permit if we dont have a company here.. You say this is considered work so we need a work permit, so working for a company abroad how does one get a Thai work permit??

If you work from your apartment I'd just keep quiet about it. They only seem to worry about those who are taking work away from Thais and you surely are not. Have read on this forum before about people in the same situation working from home but getting paid overseas. They tried to go get a work permit. The officials were absolutely befudddled, spent a long time discussing and scratching their heads and in the end just told him/her to go home and don't worry about it. They really had no idea what to do and were probably kind of surprised someone would even come in and bring it up.

About the collecting tax from those getting paid overseas in an article I read, they seemed to be concerned with those who came to work for or with established companies in Thailand but were on a short contract getting paid overseas.

[Imkah]

Although I am not new to living and surviving in neither Thailand nor other Asian countries, there is something about this situation that surprises me:

I am a professional, paid by an European and a HK co. bringing business from outside into Asia. And still no-one knows how I am supposed to get a wp unless a co. i Thailand is established?

And what I don't get is all the legal co.'s advertising their perfect solutions not having an answer? They are the one's who should confront whatever ministry's should be confronted, get straight answers (which of course will take time I consent), and give us this information. That is their job, that is their living. If not we can move on to second-guessing Thai authorities our selves.

What I am saying is that the International legal services in Thailand might very well not be of an International standing?

[Crash999]

I think because of the way the laws are written it is so vague so they can pretty much enforce it however they want. I am still trying to figure out if I need a work permit when I work for a US company and I go to the factory in Thailand and inspect a shipment before it leaves the factory, talk with about new products, check on the status of orders and make sure they are on schedule, or if I work with the factoy to make sure packaging is correct. All of these things to me seem to be doing business.

If I come in for a week each month and take care of these things I might be ok. But now that more of our business is moving to Thailand it makes more sense to make my home here instead of China. So now I will be here for 3+ weeks a month with trips to other countries in the area to visit other factories. Now are they going to say that I am working and need a work permit since I spend most of my time here? Or would I still be doing business, which I am, just more of it, so it requires me to be in Thailand more. I still work for the same company, do the same job, just spend more time in Thailand.

No one has been able to give me a definative answer. I think it is just because no one can really tell and the only way I will be able to tell is if immigration or the labor department takes me away sometime. I have tried sending emails to labor department and embassies, but I never get an answer from them. I think they don't know either.

I can say from experience that in your case you'll be able to get a 1yr business visa and won't need a work permit so long as your Thai factory is willing to support your application and carefully explain your role.

I wish we had more production in Thailand- would be a lot more fun than the last week I spent in frigid Dongguan!

[Crash999]

OK I posted this question in another thread already but did not get any answer so I'm trying to force things a bit...

I read in other threads that:

1. one is supposed to have a work permit if they want to work in Thailand for a foreign company which entirely operates from abroad.

2. only companies which are registered in Thailand are allowed/supposed to apply for work permits.

--> If 1 is correct, how come the Thai consulates issue 1 year B visas for foreign businessmen travelling to Thailand in order to meet actual or potential business partners (I am deriving this from the paperwork they want to see: letter of recommendation from foreign company + letter(s) of invitation from Thai company(ies)) ?

Is meeting business partners on behalf of a foreign company actually not considered as working?

--> If 1 and 2 are correct, it would mean that foreign companies necessarily need to set up a branch in Thailand in order to be able to legally send representatives to Thailand, wouldn't it?

I'm a bit confused, I guess one or both of my assumptions aren't correct...

It's the definition of work you're using that needs to be clarified. Work isn't just anything that gets in the way of play- if you're being paid in Thailand then you're 'working' and you need a work permit, if not then you don't. In your example of coming here to drum up business you're conducing business not 'working' so no work permit needed. In reality you don't need a business visa either - you could get a 30-day visa on arrival like most folks conducting business do.

[jstumbo]

I can say from experience that in your case you'll be able to get a 1yr business visa and won't need a work permit so long as your Thai factory is willing to support your application and carefully explain your role.

I wish we had more production in Thailand- would be a lot more fun than the last week I spent in frigid Dongguan!

I have the 1yr business visa. It was not a problem. The problem I worry about now is if the Labor department decides that I am not doing business. If they say I am working. Like you said in your other post, it all hinges on the definations of "work" and "business". I like the definition that if you "work" for a Thai company and you do "business" for a foreign company. Not sure that the Labor Dept uses those definitions though.

Dongguan, armpit of China. So many criminals it makes BKK look crime free. I have been there many times. My wife used to be the HR manager at a 4 star hotel there. My wife used to get robbed/mugged about once a year when she lived there.