Thai Junta Call It Quits, Vows No More Coups

[hammered]

And where they regualrly lock up opposition politicains and media people for expressing opinions. That might not be the kind of democracy people want for Thailand.

Are you sure about that?

The 'constructive' use of defamation laws within the city state are legion. A key opposition figure has been bankrupted, only exiting from that state in 2007. Almost all Singapore's leading opposition figures have faced legal action at some time by PAP leaders, who claim the lawsuits are necessary to safeguard their reputations.

Regards

Link to a summary blog

Linking this into Thailand. It can be argued that the kind of democracy that Thaksin saw for Thailand was based on the kind in Singapore - paternalistic taking care of those who did the right thing and coming down hard on opponents. It certainly is a model that will debated in Asia as it has delivered econmic prosperity but at a certain cost. As one Sg expat said to me a number of years ago - the day we peopel no longer have money in our pockets is the day we wont put up with it any more and that family will have to flee - all about balances.

[TAWP]

And where they regualrly lock up opposition politicains and media people for expressing opinions. That might not be the kind of democracy people want for Thailand.

Are you sure about that?

A simple google search gives examples. They have actually had to lessen the practice since the advent of blogs as it was getting larger exposure outside of Sg itself. Opposition leader Chee Soon Juan is just one high profile example. In Sg peopel can be imprisned indefintley without charge or trial. Chia Thye Poh was imprisoned for 32 without either. Not exactly what we would call democratic.

The ruling family will also destroy people through huge money defamation suits and use the threat of these immediately anyone says anything even vaguely detrimental about them. It is an effective detternet.

You mean like how Thaksin sued people for huge amounts...?

[sriracha john]

I'm sure I will be in a minority on this but I felt the military did something necessary for the good of the country and had no complaints about how they managed things once the remarkably smooth 'coup' was completed.

As I recall, most falanges referred to Taksin and "Toxin"...and he was well on his way to trying to achieve a dictatorship and probably drain the Thai Treasury, much like George Bush has done in mine! Just because you have civilians running things doesn't mean they run smoothly or democratically. Thanks to corporate control of practically everything in America now, including all of the mainstream media and both Houses of Congress, it is very close to being a completely Fascist state. I just wish some of our more reasonable Generals (most of whom have been retired now) had ousted Dubya before he invaded Iraq and looted our Treasury...and then borrowed billions more! What a disaster he and Chaney have been! Unfortunately, the already media-declared 'front runners' for the next presidential term have already sold out to the corporate powers also.

Thailand's solution to excessive greed & reckless political power was clean, quick, and effective. They got a lot of criticism but this country has not gone into the toilet like Amerika, nor start wars with other countries just to keep the voters confused and distracted.

I hope the new civilian government will work out but also hope the new Constitution will put a little more constraints on the powers of the P.M. over the will & benefit of this nation!

Chok dee, Thailand!!!

Oh no, another bitter American farang who can't afford to retire in the states so he runs away to Thailand to live on his social security income. What a shame you didn't have the fiscal dicipline to save and invest over the course of your life so you could enjoy a retirement in the states. So now you live your remaining years out overseas and bash your home country through the annonimity of a message board, what a sad existence my friend! I will try to contact our next president (Mike Huckabee) and see if he will pray for you, for it sounds like you are in need of some strong prayer. In the mean time when you wake up tomorrow try this, go to the mirror and say ten times "I will not be a bitter old man today, and I will compliment my Thai guests and try to engage in random acts of kindness" you will be amazed how much better you feel, and eventually you might even get that chip off your shoulder and stop hating your mother country Please let me know if this helps, it sounds like just the medicine you require!

Can we presume from the above that you never went to the below?

A few years back if memory serves correct, there was a program whereby a farang could study buddisim with thai monks for 6 months and earn some sort of certificate that would lead to a type of special visa. Does anyone out there remember such a program, or is it just my imagination. Once again thanks in advance for anyones help in this matter.

[Jai Dee]

Army Chief declines to comment on new defence minister

Army Chief and Deputy Secretary-General of the Council for National Security (CNS), Gen.Anupong Paochinda (อนุพงษ์ เผ่าจินดา), declines to comment on the new defence minister following CNS’s remark that the new minister should be former military officer who is not affiliated with any political party.

The army chief says CNS gave remark on the new defence minister not because of its concerns over the coalition government. He also declines to say whether ex-army chief Gen. Somthat Attanant (สมทัต อัตตะนันทน์) is suitable for the post. Gen Anupong also dismissed rumours that he had previously requested the coalition government to appoint Gen. Prawit Wongsuwan (ประวิตร วงศ์สุวรรณ) as new defence minister.

In addition, Gen. Anupong also shrugged off rumours allegeing his close ties with the Shinawatra family, adding that CNS and the Shinawatra Family will not discuss deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra’s return to Thailand.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 23 January 2008

[Lilawadee]

Unproven allegations? Court of law?

Have you heard of Constitutional Tribunal dissolving TRT?

Yes. Here is the background. Please read it. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Rak_Thai#Party_dissolution

The party's future became in doubt following the military coup that overthrew Thaksin's government in September 2006. The party was dissolved on May 30, 2007 by the order of the Constitutional Tribunal for violation of election laws.[2][18] A few high-ranking party members were found to be directly involved in bribing several small parties into competing in constituencies that were bases of the former opposition parties to ensure that minimum turnout rules were met. One hundred and eleven members of the party, including former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, were barred from participating in politics for a five-year period, with only eight out of the 119 charged acquitted.

In short, they were punished for trying to get an election result as a consequence of the "Democrat" party's boycott and derailment of democracy. They were not accused of (or punished for) what you allege, the buying of votes. Heck, even PPP didn't get punished for that and they were in a FAR more difficult position to win an election compared to TRT under Thaksin, who won successive landslide victories in elections that also independent observers say were the most free from vote buying ever. (Because there was obviously less need for it, but still).

I understand you can say that you/Thaksin/PPP don't recognize that court, but the fact is they didn't dispute the court findings and the verdict, only jurisdiction. They'd be declared guilty under any reasonable court. It's not the question of popularity. Their offenses are unacceptable.

I disagree. Their ONLY offense was to try to get smaller parties to run in a handful of districts where the democrats exploited a loophole in the election laws whereby they could hold the whole country to a stalemate by derailing the election process through a boycott. So even if I could bring myself to find that unacceptable, then I find the "Democrat" party's actiosn even MORE unacceptable. The verdict came about under a military junta who wanted that verdict, so I'll leave it up to anyone's individual opinion on how fair that verdict was.

[Captain Chaos]

And where they regualrly lock up opposition politicains and media people for expressing opinions. That might not be the kind of democracy people want for Thailand.

Are you sure about that?

The 'constructive' use of defamation laws within the city state are legion. A key opposition figure has been bankrupted, only exiting from that state in 2007. Almost all Singapore's leading opposition figures have faced legal action at some time by PAP leaders, who claim the lawsuits are necessary to safeguard their reputations.

Regards

Link to a summary blog

Linking this into Thailand. It can be argued that the kind of democracy that Thaksin saw for Thailand was based on the kind in Singapore - paternalistic taking care of those who did the right thing and coming down hard on opponents. It certainly is a model that will debated in Asia as it has delivered econmic prosperity but at a certain cost. As one Sg expat said to me a number of years ago - the day we peopel no longer have money in our pockets is the day we wont put up with it any more and that family will have to flee - all about balances.

Some valid comments there ... the PAP regime in Singapore survives because it has brought relative advancement and prosperity to what was a tiny island with not much more than some banana plantations and a port when the Brits left. It may - arguably - be considered to fit the description of "benevolant dictatorship".

In addition, whilst there is alleged to be a lot of top-level nepotism going on in Singapore, there is not the huge problem of out and out corruption that riddles Thai economic affairs. I am personally not convinced that this was in any way similar to Mr Thaksin's view of Thai government - to me it looked more like how could he make Thai government policy an extension of ShinCorp's interests...

As Hammered's quote says, what would happen if the PAP regime was no longer able to deliver consistent economic advancement, is open to debate. Personally, I'd say that most of Singapore's neighbours are such relative basket cases by comparison that the Sing regime would have to really, really try to screw things up to lose their edge...

Just my two satangs worth, after 4 years working in BKK and about 18 months here in Singapore now.

CC

[Plus]

Hold on, I never said they were dissolved for vote buying.

And NO, the reason for them to go into all these troubles was not Democrat's boycott, it was because they couldn't muster 20% of votes. They could have easily won if they beat that threshold, even with vote buying.

I don't see this reason as a justification "to try to get smaller parties to run in a handful of districts" - what an interesting description of what really happened. Some of these small parties didn't even exist. They were fakes, forgeries, fraud, staffed with fake candidates with fake credentials.

True, only several executives were directly involved, but it was Chaturon's self-implicating testimony that sealed TRT's fate. He testified that the party knew about the problem and but it didn't take any steps to rectify it, condemn this behaviour, or start any internal proceeding against the perpetrators.

The court had no other choice.

[Plus]

And where they regualrly lock up opposition politicains and media people for expressing opinions. That might not be the kind of democracy people want for Thailand.

Are you sure about that?

A simple google search gives examples. ...

Errrr. There's a misunderstanding. My question relates to the sentence in bold, not to practices of SG government.

[hammered]

And where they regualrly lock up opposition politicains and media people for expressing opinions. That might not be the kind of democracy people want for Thailand.

Are you sure about that?

A simple google search gives examples. ...

Errrr. There's a misunderstanding. My question relates to the sentence in bold, not to practices of SG government.

Apologies. There are many people in Thailand who would like exactly that kind of democracy. imho

[Seneque]

I forget the number but Thailand has a ridiculous amount of Generals and one wonders what they actually do as Thailand has never fought a war and has relatively peaceful borders these days. There is an old joke about Thailand being invaded whilst the Generals were out playing golf.

Many Thai politicions and in particular the Thai Rak Thai (PPP) are ethnic Chinese and are connected to either a banking empire or a corporation involved in large scale dealings that often involve the Government. Many simply have a family member enter politics just to protect the empires interests.

A friend of mine actually tried to join the Thai Rak Thai and run for a seat in Bangkok for the above reasons. Just to sign up he had pay something like 15 million baht and any position higher had a huge price like 150 million or more depending on the access to graft and kickbacks on offer. I never asked why but soon after working as an assistant to Thaksin he left in disgust and moved out of Bangkok to the country.

The Thai system works like this, you want a higher position you must pay your superiors to get it. A Policeman for example will be promoted according to what he can bring in graft and how much favour he curries with the brass who have the power to promote him. Once promoted he must then graft and scam at a higher level to first recoup his payment for the job and then save money to buy his next promotion.

This happens at every level in all services in Thailand and especially in the armed forces, police etc. Thaksin himself made his start in tandem with Pojamans father who was a General in the Police. Thaksin left the Police to go into telecomunications and his first big score involved selling computers to the Police at the usual highly ramped price. From there onwards he built his empire by paying for sweet heart deals for his mobile phone concessions etc.

By the time he entered politics he had a large empire up and running but he needed the protection politics provided so imbedded himself slowely and carefully into the system biding his time while he made connections and networked.

Meglomaniac is the perfect word for him as he was already very rich and could have done a lot for the country. He instead put his own selfish interests before that of the countries. The larger his wallet grew the larger his ego grew and he simply became a greedy despot who dismantled and corrupted virtually all checks and balances that were in place to oversee justice. (Not that they were ever that good to start with)

Now we have turned a full circle with Samak, Sanoh, Sanan, and Barharn back in power and the likes of Police Captain Chalerm Yubumrung to be appointed Interior minister. This alone is enough to send shivers up most peoples spines. In any other country most of these people would probably be either in jail serving long jail sentences or under investigation for corporate crimes, corruption etc.

The big joke to me is Samak has already been sentenced to 2 years jail for defaming somebody but he just laughs it all off as he knows he will never go to jail. The previous set of election officials were also jailed for 2 years but not one of them will go to jail either. In fact in the 24 years I have followed Thai politics I cannot remember one politicion being convicted of corruption or jailed except the Banker who got jailed after the crash of 97.

I guess he lost some important guys cash

Dead on ... like i said somewhere, thailand is going backward and the world won't wait ... and it is very sad ! (OK, i've to go with better things to do like watch the airhostess show !)

[meadish_sweetball]

people call the junta as inept will no doubt be eating their words after the PPP get back in.

The bunch of clowns - the ones that bought you Suwannapoom - are back and wont be able to help themselves in getting their snouts in the trough.

In the face of a global economic downturn, PPP are unlikely to be able to maintain the same shiny 'Thaksinomics' facade TRT did, and might lose a large percentage of their voter base due to this when the effects of the recession become apparent.

[Scott]

People need to remember that democracy is a process, but so is taking a crap. One just hopes that the results aren't the same.

[Lilawadee]

people call the junta as inept will no doubt be eating their words after the PPP get back in.

The bunch of clowns - the ones that bought you Suwannapoom - are back and wont be able to help themselves in getting their snouts in the trough.

In the face of a global economic downturn, PPP are unlikely to be able to maintain the same shiny 'Thaksinomics' facade TRT did, and might lose a large percentage of their voter base due to this when the effects of the recession become apparent.

Yes I very much agree with that. All will be decided by the way they handle such a crises, if they make the right decisions to get the country past that crisis as soon as possible, or not.

If not then I for one will be very happy to see them get VOTED out of office.

[see, a lot of people seem to think that I actually like PPP or Samak or anything. Of course I realize that for my own regular pasty middle class butt, a Democrat government would likely be more beneficial. For me personally. I simply cannot accept and will not accept or condone a military coup and the precedent that it sets for the future, when the fabric of Thailand will be a lot less stable than today. My only hope that Thailand could weather future severe instability depended (depends) on the timely establishment of a strong democratic system of governance. That is now completely out the window and we're back in the Banharn & Chavalit years; weak and self-serving 'coalitions of opportunity' that can be pushed aside by the military really very easily.

My personal 'best case scenario' would involve something like the Democrats becoming a lot more pro-active in reaching out to the whole of the country, and winning an election after the current coalition fails because of economic woes. I hope that government can then instill a true sense of democracy, with the PPP electorate moving towards a social-democratic type of party and the Democrats to a liberal one (Liberal in a European sense). And there isn't unlimited time for that to happen, but it is my hope.

[Bagwan]

True. But at least there's accountability to the people who can vote you out of office.

Very true, but the operative word is CAN. For 200 baht a head, they WON'T.

[geriatrickid]

Wow. That was very well written. Thanks.

edit- Refer to post 67.

Edited January 23, 2008 by geriatrickid

[VegasVic]

I'm sure I will be in a minority on this but I felt the military did something necessary for the good of the country and had no complaints about how they managed things once the remarkably smooth 'coup' was completed.

As I recall, most falanges referred to Taksin and "Toxin"...and he was well on his way to trying to achieve a dictatorship and probably drain the Thai Treasury, much like George Bush has done in mine! Just because you have civilians running things doesn't mean they run smoothly or democratically. Thanks to corporate control of practically everything in America now, including all of the mainstream media and both Houses of Congress, it is very close to being a completely Fascist state. I just wish some of our more reasonable Generals (most of whom have been retired now) had ousted Dubya before he invaded Iraq and looted our Treasury...and then borrowed billions more! What a disaster he and Chaney have been! Unfortunately, the already media-declared 'front runners' for the next presidential term have already sold out to the corporate powers also.

Thailand's solution to excessive greed & reckless political power was clean, quick, and effective. They got a lot of criticism but this country has not gone into the toilet like Amerika, nor start wars with other countries just to keep the voters confused and distracted.

I hope the new civilian government will work out but also hope the new Constitution will put a little more constraints on the powers of the P.M. over the will & benefit of this nation!

Chok dee, Thailand!!!

Oh no, another bitter American farang who can't afford to retire in the states so he runs away to Thailand to live on his social security income. What a shame you didn't have the fiscal dicipline to save and invest over the course of your life so you could enjoy a retirement in the states. So now you live your remaining years out overseas and bash your home country through the annonimity of a message board, what a sad existence my friend! I will try to contact our next president (Mike Huckabee) and see if he will pray for you, for it sounds like you are in need of some strong prayer. In the mean time when you wake up tomorrow try this, go to the mirror and say ten times "I will not be a bitter old man today, and I will compliment my Thai guests and try to engage in random acts of kindness" you will be amazed how much better you feel, and eventually you might even get that chip off your shoulder and stop hating your mother country Please let me know if this helps, it sounds like just the medicine you require!

Can we presume from the above that you never went to the below?

A few years back if memory serves correct, there was a program whereby a farang could study buddisim with thai monks for 6 months and earn some sort of certificate that would lead to a type of special visa. Does anyone out there remember such a program, or is it just my imagination. Once again thanks in advance for anyones help in this matter.

Yes indeed John you can safely assume that At the time my wife was trying to get me to buy a winter vacation home in Thailand because the preceeding 3 or 4 winters had been a little too wet and cold here in Sedona for her tastes. I was trying to find out which visas would allow me to stay for 3-5 months a year without any hassle, this particular visa seemed very interesting as I would like to learn more about my wifes religion anyway, but it was either no longer available or too complicated to get, depending on who I chose to believe. We actually spent the winter traveling throughout Thailand last year (Dec.-March) and almost wound up buying a home in Chiang Mai, but given the political uncertainty and what I felt was a downturn in the Thai economy coming we decided againt it, at least until the situation stabilizes both poitically and economically. We also checked out a nice condo overlooking a couple of golf courses just north of your town (Sriracha), but Chiang Mai seemed to suit our tastes better. I did meet a few bitter American farqangs who were living on social security or a military pension or both, and I think many of them had the same bitterness toward their home country as did this poster, I guess because the dollar has sunk so low to the baht they are mad at their country of birth, when in fact they have nobody to blame but themselves for not providing for their twilight years. Its funny, I met a few miserable Brits as well who seemed to be just getting by also, but they all seemed intensely pround of their homeland despite their situation, as a mater of fact I can't recall any of the Britts making any negative remarks about GB at all!

[Jai Dee]

Naval Commander ready to work with Samak as Prime Minister

Council for National Security (CNS) member and Commander of the Royal Thai Navy Admiral Sathiraphan Kayanont (สถิรพันธุ์ เกยานนท์) revealed in an interview that the CNS’s recent comment that it wishes the Minister of Defense be of military stature was not a suggestion but only the general opinion of the military commanders.

Admiral Sathiraphan said that the military commanders feel that if the Minister of Defense has a deep understanding of military concepts it would allow for fluidity and ease of action. The Naval Commander also said that if People’s Power Party leader Samak Sundaravej were to take on both the role of Prime Minister and Minister of Defense the armed forces would be ready to work with him.

Admiral Sathiraphan nonetheless stated that he would not give comments on opinions directed towards Mr. Samak.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 24 January 2008

[distortedlink]

Does this mean that finally Martial law has come to an end in some parts of Thailand?

[Siripon]

Does this mean that finally Martial law has come to an end in some parts of Thailand?

Martial law has been in effect in several border provinces for years, right through the Thaksin elections and before. The reasoning was to prevent smuggling of drugs, people and money laundering.

[hammered]

Does this mean that finally Martial law has come to an end in some parts of Thailand?

Martial law has been in effect in several border provinces for years, right through the Thaksin elections and before. The reasoning was to prevent smuggling of drugs, people and money laundering.

Arguably it hasnt been very succesful

[jumnien]

It's a good question. Many provinces that tilted towards the TRT/PPP party instead of the junta-supported Democrat party were put under martial law to persuade them to change their votes for the election. Now that the election is over is martial law over?

[hammered]

It's a good question. Many provinces that tilted towards the TRT/PPP party instead of the junta-supported Democrat party were put under martial law to persuade them to change their votes for the election. Now that the election is over is martial law over?

Probably in internal provinces but for a long time under many administrations an excuse has always been found to keep martial law in many border provinces. Governments of all types seem to enjoy a spot of authoritarianism to either a lesser or greater degree. Maybe a demand for the lifting of martail law in all provinces (or should the southern most 3 be left?) should be made of the incoming government after all what do they have to lose by it?

[seri thai]

For the record heres a list of coups since 1932. Note the number of military PM's also.

A lot of people bleating about democracy seem to have no understanding of the role of the military, the monarchy or political development in Thailand and only try to compare the current situation with their western experience. Thailand has been buffeted by western reaction to western developed communism, fascism and the cold war. A lot of Thailands political woes are the direct result of western influence and interference and how it has been grafted onto a hermetic feudal culture.

Read & learn a bit more whilst you still have internet access!

PM Phraya Manopakorn Nitithada (Mano) period: June 1932-June 1933, tenure- 1 yr

Coup no. 1: June 20, 1933 (Khana Ratpraharn - coup)

PM Col. Phraya Paholpolpayuhasena (Pahol) Military, June 1933- Dec.1938, tenure: 5 yrs, 5 mths, 23 days

Coup no. 2: October 11, 1933 (Kabot Boworadej - rebellion)

Coup no. 3: August 3, 1935 (Kabot Naisip- rebellion)

Coup no. 4: January 29. 1938 (Kabot Praya Songsuradej- rebellion)

PM Field Marshall P. Pibulsongkram, Military, Dec. 1938-Jul 1944, tenure: 5 yrs, 11 mths, 11 days

PM Khuang Aphaiwong, Civillian, Aug 1944-Aug 1945, tenure: 1 yr, 6 mnths, 17 days

PM Tawee Boonyaket Civilian, Aug 1945-Sep 1945 , tenure: 17 days

PM M.R. Seni Pramoj , Civilian, Sep 1945-Jan1946, tenure: 10 mths, 13 days

PM Khuang Aphaiwong, Civilian, Jan. 1946-Mar.1946, tenure: 3 months

PM Pridi Panomyong, Civilian, March 1946-Aug 1946, tenure: 4 mths, 17 days

PM R. Admiral Tawan Thamrongnavasawat, Military, Aug 1946-Nov 1947, tenure: 1 yr, 2 mths, 18 days

Coup No. 5: November 8, 1947 (Khana Ratprahar-coup)

PM Kuang Aphaiwong, Civilian, Nov. 1947-April1948, tenure 6 months

Coup No. 6: October 1, 1948 (Kabot Senathikarn-rebellion)

PM Field Marshall P. Phibulsongkram (Pibul), Military, April, 1948-Sep. 1957, tenure: 9 1/2 years

Coup No. 7: February 26, 1949 (Kabot Wangluang-rebellion)

Coup No. 8: June 29. 1951 (Kabot Manhatton-rebellion)

Coup No. 9: November 29, 1951 (Khana Ratpraharn-coup)

Coup No. 10: September 16, 1957 (Khana Ratpraharn-coup)

PM Pote Sarasin, civilian, Sep 1957-Jan. 1958, tenure: 4 months

PM Gen. Thanom Kittikachorn Jan 1958-Oct 1958, tenure: 9 months

PM Field Marshal Sarit Thanarat Feb 1959-Dec 1963, tenure: 4 3/4 years

PM Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn, Dec 1963-Feb1969, tenure: 6 1/6 years, and Feb. 1969-Nov 1971, 2 3/4 years, and Nov. 1971-Oct.1973, 2 years

Dictators were brought down by student uprising. Wikipedia article on "The 1973 democracy movement"

PM Sanya Dharmasakti, (14 October 1973 - 26 February 1975)

PM Seni Pramoj, (26 February - 14 March 1975) (2nd time)

PM Kukrit Pramoj, (14 March 1975 - 20 April 1976)

PM Seni Pramoj, (20 April - 6 October 1976) (3rd time)

PM Tanin Kraivixien, installed by the military (8 October 1976 - 20 October 1977)

Coup No. 11: October, 1977.

PM General Kriangsak Chomanan, appointed (12 November 1977 - 3 March 1980)

PM General Prem Tinsulanonda, appointed (3 March 1980 - 4 August 1988)

PM General Chatichai Choonhavan, elected (4 August 1988 - 23 February 1991)

Coup No. 12: February, 1991.

PM Anand Panyarachun, appointed, civilian (7 March 1991 - 7 April 1992) (1st time)

PM General Suchinda Kraprayoon, military, (7 April - 24 May 1992)

PM Meechai Ruchuphan, 24 May 1992 - 10 June 1992 (acting)

PM Anand Panyarachun, appointed(10 June - 23 September 1992) (2nd time)

PM Chuan Leekpai, elected (23 September 1992 - 13 July 1995) (1st time)

PM Banharn Silpa-Archa, elected, (13 July 1995 - 1 December 1996)

PM General Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, elected (1 December 1996 - 9 November 1997)

PM Chuan Leekpai, elected, (9 November 1997 - 9 February 2001) (2nd time)

PM Thaksin Shinawatra, elected. (9 February 2001 - 19 September 2006)

Acting PM Chitchai Wannasathit, 5 April - 23 May 2006 (acting for Thaksin)

Coup No. 13: , 2006.

[CL0R0X]

to be continue

[Pierrot]

For the record heres a list of coups since 1932. Note the number of military PM's also.

A lot of people bleating about democracy seem to have no understanding of the role of the military, the monarchy or political development in Thailand and only try to compare the current situation with their western experience. Thailand has been buffeted by western reaction to western developed communism, fascism and the cold war. A lot of Thailands political woes are the direct result of western influence and interference and how it has been grafted onto a hermetic feudal culture.

Read & learn a bit more whilst you still have internet access!

What do you mean by "A lot of Thailands political woes are the direct result of western influence" ?

"Read & learn a bit more whilst you still have internet access!" Paranoia seems to be contagious in this forum !

[ando]

What a GOOD time for the military to (supposedly) bow out of politics and promise -- "no more coups".

Some hard economic times ahead for many countries including Thailand.

The Thai military are basically opportunists who choose to move in and seize power in order to sway the course of democracy when the political situation is advantageous to them and their interests. Right now, with a world economic downturn on the cards which will likely adversely affect Thailand and following the militaries abysmal performance in government over the past year, its not surprising they don't have a taste for another coup in the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't take the militaries sudden surge of humility in the face of this (largely) failed coup as any guarantee they wont try it again when the consider the timing most opportune. Brave men when they think think things are going their way, -- cowards retreating when things are not.

The main thing that prevents these sorts of things from happening in more developed democracies are the laws of treason which don't seem to apply in Thailand and indeed seem to have been totally circumvented in the newest military dictated constitution which exonerates the latest coup makers from prosecution and furthermore gives them the legal right to mount another coup when they deem the time is fit.

Honestly, -- are these the kind of people you could trust with the long term benefit of Thailand at heart? The vast majority of Thai people don't think so either. That's why the generals need tanks and guns to take over government when they see a short term opening. I don't think anyone wants the military interfering with democratic government again, -- now or ever! However, I do think it will take it will take one more last disastrous coup (perhaps a few more years down the road yet), for the military to recognize they can not get away with this kind of thing with impunity in a true democracy.

[Siripon]

Do you really think Thai people think Samak, Yongyut, Chalerm have the Thai people's interests at heart?!

The coup was absolutely necessary to stop a runaway dictator whose definition of democracy was, and is, simply to get the largest number of votes. Sonthi's error was not having a team or well thought out plan post coup to run the country. Handing over power to Surayud was a big error, but hindsight is easy. He needed someone like Khun Anan instead.

Checks and balances? No, Thaksin dissolves Parliament and promises those who vote for him they'll get served first.

Debate policies in Parliament or on TV? No, never.

TRT and PPP are not a grassroots movement that is going to see a substantial improvement in the poor's lives. That requires long thought out policies that need years for implementation and fruition.

As someone from Issan I was delighted to see Newin flexing his Issan muscles with the meeting of Issan PPP MPs last week, the PPP Bangkokians maybe quaking in their shoes a little; but to see this materialise into improvements in the lives of Issan people rather than merely be a vehicle for Thaksin to retain power requires an optimism I don't possess.

[John K]

Do you really think Thai people think Samak, Yongyut, Chalerm have the Thai people's interests at heart?!

The coup was absolutely necessary to stop a runaway dictator whose definition of democracy was, and is, simply to get the largest number of votes. Sonthi's error was not having a team or well thought out plan post coup to run the country. Handing over power to Surayud was a big error, but hindsight is easy. He needed someone like Khun Anan instead.

Checks and balances? No, Thaksin dissolves Parliament and promises those who vote for him they'll get served first.

Debate policies in Parliament or on TV? No, never.

TRT and PPP are not a grassroots movement that is going to see a substantial improvement in the poor's lives. That requires long thought out policies that need years for implementation and fruition.

As someone from Issan I was delighted to see Newin flexing his Issan muscles with the meeting of Issan PPP MPs last week, the PPP Bangkokians maybe quaking in their shoes a little; but to see this materialise into improvements in the lives of Issan people rather than merely be a vehicle for Thaksin to retain power requires an optimism I don't possess.

I usually agree with you in nearly every post but in this one I must disagree to some extent. I think to be honest the game is still in play. There is a saying that says “Never argue with a fool because others may not be able to Identify the fool.”

Sonthi could not have played it any other way without making the Junta look truly bad. With enough people keyed on the name junta and playing the stereotype in their mind, he had to show the people that were actually paying attention and ignoring the name, that they were the good guys. In short he was not just playing to the Thais, he was playing to the world to establish credibility in the junta and he was stopping a dictator.

Now that cork is out of the bottle and the stink is filling the room, people are starting to realize just what the junta did in corking that bottle. As soon as the PPP gets sorted out, that’s where people will be looking at the junta to step in again and be a bit more decisive. When people start disappearing and revenge runs rampant there should be no question in peoples mind who the good and bad guys are.

If the PPP don’t go down in the courts, this will be a chance for a repeat performance and there will be little doubt who are the good guys in act 2. I don’t think act 2 was planned from the start but nevertheless the junta does not appear to be the bad guy or at least the lesser of two evils when looking at act 1. Sonthi did it by the book, where the TRT/PPP/Thaksin tried nearly every arrogant dirty trick it could including buying votes. Thaksin put it on the world stage from the UK so that has become a double edge blade for Thaksin.

Where it goes from there is anyone’s guess. It would not be to hard to show the world that perhaps Thailand is not ready for untethered democracy and that a probationary government may be needed until they can learn to control their bad habits. Who holds that leash is anyone’s guess but having the military hold it will not go well for long. That only leaves one person who can hold that leash that will not be questioned by anyone.

So in short Sonthi could not afford to leave a bad taste in the mouths of respected world leaders if a second coup became necessary.

[younghusband]

Do you really think Thai people think Samak, Yongyut, Chalerm have the Thai people's interests at heart?!

The coup was absolutely necessary to stop a runaway dictator whose definition of democracy was, and is, simply to get the largest number of votes. Sonthi's error was not having a team or well thought out plan post coup to run the country. Handing over power to Surayud was a big error, but hindsight is easy. He needed someone like Khun Anan instead.

Checks and balances? No, Thaksin dissolves Parliament and promises those who vote for him they'll get served first.

Debate policies in Parliament or on TV? No, never.

TRT and PPP are not a grassroots movement that is going to see a substantial improvement in the poor's lives. That requires long thought out policies that need years for implementation and fruition.

As someone from Issan I was delighted to see Newin flexing his Issan muscles with the meeting of Issan PPP MPs last week, the PPP Bangkokians maybe quaking in their shoes a little; but to see this materialise into improvements in the lives of Issan people rather than merely be a vehicle for Thaksin to retain power requires an optimism I don't possess.

I usually agree with you in nearly every post but in this one I must disagree to some extent. I think to be honest the game is still in play. There is a saying that says “Never argue with a fool because others may not be able to Identify the fool.”

Sonthi could not have played it any other way without making the Junta look truly bad. With enough people keyed on the name junta and playing the stereotype in their mind, he had to show the people that were actually paying attention and ignoring the name, that they were the good guys. In short he was not just playing to the Thais, he was playing to the world to establish credibility in the junta and he was stopping a dictator.

Now that cork is out of the bottle and the stink is filling the room, people are starting to realize just what the junta did in corking that bottle. As soon as the PPP gets sorted out, that’s where people will be looking at the junta to step in again and be a bit more decisive. When people start disappearing and revenge runs rampant there should be no question in peoples mind who the good and bad guys are.

If the PPP don’t go down in the courts, this will be a chance for a repeat performance and there will be little doubt who are the good guys in act 2. I don’t think act 2 was planned from the start but nevertheless the junta does not appear to be the bad guy or at least the lesser of two evils when looking at act 1. Sonthi did it by the book, where the TRT/PPP/Thaksin tried nearly every arrogant dirty trick it could including buying votes. Thaksin put it on the world stage from the UK so that has become a double edge blade for Thaksin.

Where it goes from there is anyone’s guess. It would not be to hard to show the world that perhaps Thailand is not ready for untethered democracy and that a probationary government may be needed until they can learn to control their bad habits. Who holds that leash is anyone’s guess but having the military hold it will not go well for long. That only leaves one person who can hold that leash that will not be questioned by anyone.

So in short Sonthi could not afford to leave a bad taste in the mouths of respected world leaders if a second coup became necessary.

Siripon is in my view deluded that the coup was "absolutely necessary" but most would agree there was a political logjam that needed to be cleared.I would have thought the evidence of hindsight has demonstrated the coup was an act of almost undiluted stupidity and adverse consequences (including weakening at least one of the key institutions it was designed to "protect") but that's for a separate debate.Certainly most unbiased observers would concur that Sondhi was an incompetent and unimpressive second rater.In any event all this been much discussed already and entrenched positions seem to be held.The more puzzling aspect is John K's response ... <snip>... but I was intrigued at his thought that Sondhi's actions may have at least partly have been prompted by the likely perception of world leaders, specifically the need to prepare an international favourable reception in the event of a second coup.<snip>

By the way who is the one person who can hold the leash -Samak, Thaksin, Abhisit, Banharn?? I think we should be told.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Jai Dee
flames deleted

[ando]

Hypothetical question. If the military had decided to stay out of politics, would the political dilemma of 2006 been resolved in the courts?

The answer is of course YES. There would have been another election and TRT would have been re-elected with Thaksin as leader. Sure PAD would have grabbed headlines for a while mustering their 0.3% of voters in the heart of anti-Thaksin territory, but things would have settled down and the country would be in better shape than it is now economically and politically. What we have now is a precarious situation with a government of uncertain duration and a myriad of court cases left over from 2006 which in all likelihood will come to nothing or very little.

The generals got their snouts in the trough while they were in power giving themselves pay rises and big increases in budgets. They failed to get their preferred party into power, they failed to manage the economy responsibly and now they want to slink back into the shadows (all be it with a confusing mixture of few parting threats and promises that they wont do it again). However they did manage to push through a new constitution absolving themselves from responsibility for their actions and allowing them to repeat their folly at the most opportune time of their choosing at sometime in the future. The question is , -- would they be stupid enough to try it again after this last disastrous effort? This last coup may have started with a mood of euphoria and hope among its Bangkok supporters, but it ended in bitter disappointment and further potential instability.

Only those obsessed with the overthrow of Thaskin the man could call the coup a success or necessary. Certainly no one with Thailands overall genuine interests at heart could condone it.

And as the generals are well aware, another coup would not be well received even by the public in Bangkok unless extraordinary circumstances develop in excess of what we have previously seen. Further, as Thailand has a long history of rewriting constitutions, the generals may not be so lucky next time in having their actions protected under the law of their own doctored constitution.

There will come a time in Thailand when the generals will be held to account for their future actions. That day is fast approaching and I am sure it scares them more than a little. The good old days of keeping the peasants at bay with tanks and guns is nearly over.

Eventually, the military will nbe forced to submit to the rule of law under a democracy. Just the same as in developed democracies. Maybe they will try it one more time? It will be the last if they do I believe.