Human Growth Hormone

[JimmyTheMook]

This is and has been touted as the Fountain of Youth onder drug by certain doctors and people who take it .

Anyone here have any experience with it ?

[dominique355]

Yep, I tried it some 5 years ago. I ordered a supply over the Internet and I actually felt better, had more power and energy and stamina. Then I ordered a second supply and it had no effect at all anymore.

Later I was informed that the second time I was a victim of a scam and the HGH they had sent to me was worthless.

I still believe that real HGH does have an effect but I don't know where to buy it now.

[MrSquigle]

Stallone does.

He still looks handsome....punched around the ring a bit, but fine.

[Sheryl]

It is only approved for use in a rare condition of growth retardationin which there is a deficiency of this hormone. It's use to feel/look younger, while widespread amiong celebrities, is off-label and has never as far as I know been systemically studied. There are a lot of concerns about its safety.

I too have been tempted from time to time but whenever I review the side effects and possible longer term adverse effects I decide to wait until I'm old enough that it's worth the possible trade offs (which may include cancer among other things)...in other words old enough that feeling younger matters more than staying alive.

And yes, counterfeits and scams abound....

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It is only approved for use in a rare condition of growth retardationin which there is a deficiency of this hormone. It's use to feel/look younger, while widespread amiong celebrities, is off-label and has never as far as I know been systemically studied. There are a lot of concerns about its safety.

I too have been tempted from time to time but whenever I review the side effects and possible longer term adverse effects I decide to wait until I'm old enough that it's worth the possible trade offs (which may include cancer among other things)...in other words old enough that feeling younger matters more than staying alive.

And yes, counterfeits and scams abound....

Don't Sheryl ... don't try it.

[banev]

This hormone does not make any effect when taken artificially.

[JimmyTheMook]

It is readily available in Thailand and administered in some of the better known hospitals.

Agree that not a tremendous amount is know about the long term effects of it use.

Edited January 30, 2008 by JimmyTheMook

[Nordlys]

I'm sure endocrinologist at any large hospital can prescribe human growth hormone, but not sure if they'd do that for reason other than for treatment. I do get synthetic antidiuretic hormone (vasopressin, another hormone secreted by pituitary gland) by endocrinologist at Chula Hospital every four months. It's expensive, but I get it under universal health care (due to my Thai citizenship). Patients with same disease as mine that caused complication which requires both the ADH and human growth hormone administered for treatment told me growth hormone is far more expensive than synthetic ADH.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Nordlys

[Sheryl]

Yes, it is very costly. I believe it is being used in at least some of the "anti-aging" clinics around.

Don't worry, Dr. Patpong, I've got many years before I'm likely to feel old enough to be willing to take the risks!

[pumper]

It is readily available in Thailand and administered in some of the better known hospitals.

what hospitals.. Sukhumvet & Pattaya 'pharmacies' perhaps

Bumrungrad does not .. Dr Poj has been my endocrinologist for 7 years & has done the extensive blood work required by my american doc .. but B'grad will not dispense even for pick up at the airport on exit.

the B'grad antiaging clinic, across the Soi behind the parking garage, does not address IGF-1. B'grad overnights my blood for IGF-1 to Singapore.

if you have questions on adult hormone related health issues I highly recommend Bumrungrad's Dr.Poj .. U of Penn med school

Dennis House with Ram Hospital Group was actively working an adult rhGH program but gave up several months.

Remember even whey protein was not 'legally allowed' until about 2001.

Testosterone is approved in LOS & Dr. Poj has prescribed q 2weeks after lab work documented that I am over 40.. B'grad dispenses injectable T, deep IM, nurse administration.

adult HRT is a wonderful thing.

the site below has links to NYSE pharmaceutical company literature on adult rhGH. male adult HRT is a legitimate field of medicine.

" Any person who states proper Human Growth Hormone Therapy (HRT) does not improve a middle aged person's life is obviously not a middle aged person who has experienced the glorious benefits of appropriate prescription hormone replacement therapy!"

www.csmngt.com/human_growth_hormone.htm

Edited January 31, 2008 by pumper

[pumper]

This hormone does not make any effect when taken artificially.

what is your experience / education that allows you to make such a statement?

persons without direct experience / medical knowledge should not make definitive statements that could influence the health care of others.

.... the mods keep jumping on me .. & suspending me .. for my lack of PC ...

this is an area in which i have personal experience. I'm not sure how to say you are completely wrong PCly, without saying you are completely wrong which is not PC.

so I'm not telling you you are wrong, I am simply stating that in the opinion & experience of myself & 10s 1000s of others .. WRONG!

Any person who states proper Human Growth Hormone Therapy (HRT) does not improve a middle aged person's life is obviously not a middle aged person who has experienced the glorious benefits of appropriate prescription rhGH Therapy!

[pumper]

It's use to feel/look younger, while widespread amiong celebrities, is off-label and has never as far as I know been systemically studied. There are a lot of concerns about its safety.

i linked to major corporation web sites for their rhGH info. rhGH is prescribed to treat the signs & symptoms associated with low serum hGH,

among the s&S of low hGH are mood & cognition issues, low energy, reduced stamina, sleep issues.

if "feel younger" is improved mood & cognition, energy, stamina,,, it's all in the pharmaceutical company adult rhGH literature.

so it's "not off label"

Injectable rHGH is properly prescribed to treat the symptoms associated with low levels of human Growth Hormone.

Pharmaceutical Company literature for Adult rhGH (All Somatropin under Trade Names): Eli Lilly (NYSE:LLY) Humatrope®, Pharmacia-Upjohn (NYSE:PNU) Genotropin®, Merck-Serono (NYSE:MRK) Saizen®, Sandoz (NYSE:NVS) Omnitrope®, Genentech (NYSE:DNA) Nutropin®

a lot of concerns about safety:

please elaborate?

• Elmer M. Cranton, MD,"Safe hormone levels at age 30 will remain safe when restored to that same level later in life. Adverse effects generally result from excessive doses "
  

• 
  

• CNN 2007:

  the dosages required to produce negative effects are much higher than are prescribed by Medical Doctors..

  
  

• Journal of the AMA April, 2007: "

  Negative risks with Hormone Replacement Therapy are usually overstated."

  
  

• above again copied from: csmngt.com/human_growth_hormone.htm
  
  

Edited January 31, 2008 by pumper

[churchill]

so how does one know if HGH or other treatment may make you feel younger . I am 49 but feel healthy and fit and want to stay that way . would hgh help me to stay and feel younger ?

[pumper]

so how does one know if HGH or other treatment may make you feel younger . I am 49 but feel healthy and fit and want to stay that way . would hgh help me to stay and feel younger ?

hormone replacement therapy had a positive effect on me from the 1st day.

it's expensive in the US & limited availability in LOS

in mid '07 when the US banned chinese rhGH importation (not a medical issue, same same as any med from canada) my US cost per month went from about $300 to over $550.

mid '07 my pharmacy all of a sudden could not fill my prescription when the fda started holding up commercial shipments of chinese rhGH at customs .. took me 6 weeks to get in to see the doc, get another prescription, get the prescription to a new pharmacy & then the prescription filled

I was totally without my prescription meds for about 4 weeks

.. I never really felt noticeably different

BUT, 1st day back I realized what an ineffective dork I had gradually become .. slowly day by day i had regressed without noticing.

i had realized i had lost the focus & motivation I had grown used to having, but did not realize I was beginning to have the cognition & inspiration appropriate with my hormonal age

all of the hoopla in the us about rhGH .. only potential crimes are for lying about it. no pharmacy or md has been charged. it is 100% legal.

not politically correct on talk radio .. but medically a sound & established treatment modality.

stallone had boo-coo (perhaps a years supply) chinese rhGH he got in HK when he was stopped by Oz's customs.

women may dream of looking better ..

me, it is the cognitive / attitude / motivation / inspiration / energy, mental & physical.

Edited January 31, 2008 by pumper

[Chris Lawrence]

Has anyone used DHEA; a friend of mine has and said it helped with his weight and improved stamina. My friend is 55 and a compulsive trainer.

I have read a bit about it on the net, some with good review and most inconclusive as a not enough has been trialed at a medical level with this drug.

My weight has skyrocketed since starting insulin in April 07, and stamina has really plumeted. So if any diabetics have used this drug also would like to hear comments. The one thing I have picked up is that it may interfear with diabetics sugar levels?

[pumper]

Has anyone used DHEA; a friend of mine has and said it helped with his weight and improved stamina. My friend is 55 and a compulsive trainer.

dhea is cheaper than cheap in the us .. not sure about LOS .. $3. +/- per month.

since dhea is not a prescription med with no patent potential there will be little pharmaceutical interest in testing.

dhea is another of the hormones that decline with age.

the most abundant hormone in a 25 YO mans body is dhea

is called the 'mother hormone', meaning that dhea is the hormone from which other hormones are fabricated.

25% of testosterone is fabricated from dhea.

the male owner (shane, mr universe) of the old Universal Gym (RIP) on Pattaya's beach road said his wife (diane, ms world figure) got good results with dhea.

100mg dhea seems to interfere with my sleep

dhea along with melatonin were the first 'old kodger hormones' i tried .. continue to take melatonin each pm.

IMHO, a problem with ALL over the counter 'supplements' is truth in labeling .. it's 100% chinese now.

dhea is above the now banned andros & prescription testosterone in the hormonal order.

chart below was borrowed form the antiaging site i linked to above .. the testosterone page.

<<<<<<<<< DHEA >>>>>>>>>>

\/ \/ \/ \/ \/

<<<<< Enzymes, Glucocorticoids, Mineral Corticoids >>>>>

\/ \/ \/ \/ \/

Androstenedione

Testosterone

4 & 5-Androstenediol

Testosterone

4 & 5-Androstenedione

Testosterone

19-Norandrostenedione

NorTestosterone

19-Norandrostenediol

Nortestosterone

[Chris Lawrence]

Thanks pumper.

My friend that used it also used to increase his training (4 black belts) and loss of weight. Was recommending it as I have put on some 15 kilo with insulin use and high fatigue level; finding it very hard to loose. I think he said it was about $1500 Aust, for 6 months at 50 mg a day.

Like most of these things if there is no medical company interest, a lot of testing is inconclusive. My concerns were the effect it may have on sugar levels in the body?

[pumper]

I assume you check your blood sugar

i also assume a small bottle of dhea is less than expensive at gnc. .. internet?

start at the lowest possible serving .. worst that can happen is you stop

you have a paper trail / history of your glucose readings.

Edited February 3, 2008 by pumper

[Chris Lawrence]

Yes I do that.

I went to the chemist the other day and when I asked about it, I was told that it was hard to get and only supply via script and a very strange look like I was asking for something I shouldn't be asking about? I will start asking more questions. Thanks pumper.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Pumper did you notice any side effects? How long have you been taking it? Any idea of the price in LOS? I'm in my mid 70's and starting to feel it, a bit of a boost and to sleep good would be nice. Also would not mind the memory improving and to recover some of my drive, which has dropped greatly in the last two years. Anyone know how you go about getting HGH?

[djinn]

It is only approved for use in a rare condition of growth retardationin which there is a deficiency of this hormone. It's use to feel/look younger, while widespread amiong celebrities, is off-label and has never as far as I know been systemically studied. There are a lot of concerns about its safety.

I too have been tempted from time to time but whenever I review the side effects and possible longer term adverse effects I decide to wait until I'm old enough that it's worth the possible trade offs (which may include cancer among other things)...in other words old enough that feeling younger matters more than staying alive.

And yes, counterfeits and scams abound....

I second Sheryl

Asked to the head of endocrynology (sorry for spelling) dept of my home town university when I was in Belgium.Was 52 at the time.He said they seem to have positive effects to people.But on long term nobody knows what will be the side effects and as he told me: hormones are "fuel for cancer" especially after 50 ....better to wait and see.

[LoriG]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum but thought I'd jump in.

After many years of research my husband and I decided to start a program of Hgh and testosterone. I'm a 49 years old and my husband is 58. We each take 1 iu of Hgh per day, 6 days per week with 1 day off. I use a testosterone cream every day and my husband injects testosterone once a week. We follow a low glycemic index diet and exercise daily. We began this program Dec. 1, 2008.

My results have been dramatic. In 9 weeks I have lost 2 inches off my waist, going from a 28" to a 26". My energy level is comparable to when I was in my early 30s. My sex drive, which had entirely vanished has returned full on. My skin is moister and smoother. Improved mood. Stronger fingernails and disappearance of ridging. Better quality sleep. Increased muscle mass. Blood pressure improved as have glucose measurements. Greater endurance.

The only thing I haven't noticed is memory improvement. Then again, it's only been 9 weeks.

My husband has lost several inches of body fat, primarily around his waist. He has a stressful, dangerous job and has become more capable coping with it. His skin looks better with fewer wrinkles. He doesn't require as much sleep. We have great sex almost every day. We used to have sex one or two times a month. A rotator cuff injury from 9 years ago seems to have finally healed as there is no pain. Initially his blood pressure rose to 140/89 (average) from 140/80 (pre Hgh) but it has dropped and the last three weeks his readings are typically in the 120/70 range.

After reading every medical study I could get my hands on, I came to the conclusion that there is no basis in fact that Hgh causes cancer, diabetes, heart disease or any other disease. Most adult cancers occur in the years where hormones are in the greatest decline, not when levels are high. In fact several studies clearly indicate that if a younger persons hormone levels are low they are at an increased risk for disease. Children who are given Hgh do not exhibit an increase of any type of cancer. Show me a study where Hgh causes cancer and I'll show you 50 solid studies to dispute it. It is true that Hgh taken in very large doses can cause acromegaly, joint pain and carpal tunnel. What doses are unsafe can be difficult to determine as it differs from person to person. My anti aging physician (a former cardiac surgeon) believes under 2iu per day is a safe dosage. By the way, he's 30, the picture of health and he takes testosterone and a unit Hgh a day as well.

I understand an argument could be made for the unknown long term effects, but I would think that same argument could be made for CoQ10, Germanium or many other valuable supplements that have come on the scene in the last 20 years or so.

Hgh is not effective in sprays, lotions, pills etc. Altough the pharmaceutical industry have been looking for years for a way to transport Hgh and Insulin without the use of a syringe, to date this feat has yet to be accomplished. It's likely insulin will become transdermal before Hgh. That hasn't happened yet. So if you decide to take Hgh don't waste your time and money on sprays, creams etc. The only way to use Hgh is by injection. Hgh is expensive and requires a prescription in most countries. Do you really think these outfits selling sprays are actually using real Hgh and even if they were, good luck getting past the stomach acids.

I've noticed the people that really should know better just don't. I'm talking about endocrinologists. Reminds me of the days, not so long ago when medical doctors would shun chiropractors as quacks. Your best bet is to go to a doctor who is trained in anti aging medicine.

In short, if you don't feel great anymore and you feel old and tired, it's up to you to make changes. You can continue to wait for the long term studies and maybe you will still be alive to see what the outcomes are, or you can be proactive and do your own research. Find out everything you can. Most physicians know very little about bio identical hormone replacement or diet for that matter. Take control of your own health and decide what's right for you.

[gunnyd]

HGH as with any other hormone replacement regimen should only be undertaken under the advice and monitoring of an endocrinologist. The jury is out on it's benefits. The placebo effect is usually why people feel younger after using HGH. What is known is that use of HGH in post pubescent adults can lead to growth of flat bones in the body e.g. jaw, skull, etc. That is where the term muscle-head comes from. Barry Bonds, Sly Stallone, and many body builders have pronounced foreheads and square jaws from the use of HGH in excess amounts. Also there is evidence that the use of exogenous HGH can lead to liver cancer.

[jetjock]

The benefits of taking HGH are many but anyone that takes HGH or similar steroids and does not understand that the risks of taking HGH may be even higher than the benefits are deluding themselves. By taking HGH under medical supervision and with constant monitoring the blood and various hormone levels in the body, the risk may be somewhat lowered, however, the risk still remains as there is so much still unknown about the long term effects. I think everyone is entitled to do whatever they want as it is their body so I have no problem with someone that chooses to take HGH as long as hopefully they are making an educated decision and understand that the long term risks are real. If you want to know about some of the risks, all one has to do is do a little research on what the future held for some of the athletes and bodybuilders that were steroid users in the past. I personally would love to enjoy the benefits of HGH but decided long ago that the risks were too high for me, so I just try to stay in top shape the old fashioned way of working out more and training harder.

Here is an excerpt from the story of Lyle Alzado who I had met and spoken to several times when he was playing for the Raiders pro football team here in the US. His choice of steroids was HGH which he used quite heavily at times.

His 4.75 40-yard dash time, coupled with his tremendous strength - Lyle once had 27 wins as an amateur boxer - ranked Lyle as one of pro football's top pass rushers. His status as a premier defensive lineman was also enhanced by his versatility - he played both end and tackle in the front four with All-pro status. Lyle Alzado was 42 when he died of brain cancer. An American football SuperBowl hero with the Los Angeles Raiders in the 1984, Alzado owned a restaurant in West Hollywood and had embarked on a career as a movie actor when he died in 1992 after going public. "I started taking anabolic steroids in 1969 and never stopped," he admitted during his pain-racked final days. "It was addicting, mentally addicting. Now I'm sick, and I'm scared. Ninety per cent of the athletes I know are on the stuff. We're not born to be 300lbs or jump 30ft. But all the time I was taking steroids, I knew they were making me play better. I became very violent on the field and off it. I did things only crazy people do. Once a guy sideswiped my car and I beat the hel_l out of him. Now look at me. My hair's gone, I wobble when I walk and have to hold on to someone for support, and I have trouble remembering things. My last wish? That no one else ever dies this way." Riverview Cemetery, Portland, Oregon, USA. Cause of Death: Brain cancer brought on by excessive steroid use. "

[pumper]

if you contend that the benefits of HRT (for middle aged) can be equaled by gym time you do not understand the medical condition that appropriate HRT is prescribed to treat.

>> & Alzado played before rhGH was invented & died before modern rDNA derived was invented<<<<<<

played defensive line for the Los Angeles Raiders, Cleveland Browns, and Denver Broncos during the 1970s and early 1980s.

the only hgh available during alzado's career was cadaver & very rare.

bio-synthetic rhGH was patented in '85. Alzado died before modern somatropin was patented in '95

he was a nut case juicer stacking assorted anabolic steroids into insane coctails.

alzado did huge amounts of steroids.

the excerpt from the book does not mention hGH.. only steroids & since bio-synthetic was invented after his career ..

but, if you heard him say he was a fan of cadaver hGH I will not dispute

..would not place money on it .. but will not argue.

hGH is not an anabolic steriod. in the us anabolic streroids are illegal ..

FDA / AMA rhGH is legal & can be prescribed by any doc & dispensed by any pharmacy.

(I think) both rhGH & steroids are restricted in LOS.

Edited February 13, 2008 by pumper

[jetjock]

if you contend that the benefits of HRT (for middle aged) can be equaled by gym time you do not understand the medical condition that appropriate HRT is prescribed to treat.

>> & Alzado played before rhGH was invented & died before modern rDNA derived was invented<<<<<<

played defensive line for the Los Angeles Raiders, Cleveland Browns, and Denver Broncos during the 1970s and early 1980s.

the only hgh available during alzado's career was cadaver & very rare.

bio-synthetic rhGH was patented in '85. Alzado died before modern somatropin was patented in '95

he was a nut case juicer stacking assorted anabolic steroids into insane coctails.

alzado did huge amounts of steroids.

the excerpt from the book does not mention hGH.. only steroids & since bio-synthetic was invented after his career ..

but, if you heard him say he was a fan of cadaver hGH I will not dispute

..would not place money on it .. but will not argue.

hGH is not an anabolic steriod. in the us anabolic streroids are illegal ..

FDA / AMA rhGH is legal & can be prescribed by any doc & dispensed by any pharmacy.

(I think) both rhGH & steroids are restricted in LOS.

Pumper--I would never say that the benefits of HRT are not great and would agree that the benefits could never be equaled by gym time. I would say however, that for most people without special health problems , HRT is much riskier to one's long term health compared to gym time as much is still unknown about the negative effects of long term use or abuse of HRT.

As for Lyle Alzado, there is no question that he was not just a user but more of an abuser of anabolic steroids. He started taking them in 1969 and claimed he spent as much as $30,000 a year on them. He retired in 1985 and tried to make an comeback in 1990 and during that period is when he claimed he started using HGH harvested from human cadavers. He readily admitted in several interviews that he had used HGH in very high quantities to prepare him for his comeback which turned out to be unsuccessful due to an injury. He did several TV interviews before his death in 1992 blaming his death on his abuse of HGH in his later years. The truth is that whether his abuse of HGH was the actual cause his brain cancer, as he claimed it was, will never be known.

edited for spelling

Edited February 13, 2008 by jetjock

[pumper]

1st I do not care what you believe as long as you make posts regarding medical care based on science & medical evidence.

hGH does not cause cancer

stating hGH causes cancer has irritated me ..

THERE IS NO CLINICAL EVIDENCE hGH CAUSES CANCER .. bio synthetic hGH has been used for over 20 years & no relationship with cancer has been presented

.. & you cite alzado as proof of your hGH / cancer statement .. lof'nl!

it's the f'n creation, tobacco is healthy & deny global warming strategy .. create doubt with uncheckable / undocumented claims .. no science just old wives tales, rumor .. & a position based on belief.

IMHO, one should not discourage persons from seeking 21st medical care by citing prescription abuse or old wives tales.

alzado was a mad man who abused steroids to the point even the Venice Beach Gold's crew was dissin' his arse.

if you can cite 1 current negative not dose or pre existing condition related .. I'd like to see it.

Hormonal demise is responsible for many of the conditions of aging that the middle aged & baby boomers are beginning to experience.

The improved cognitive energy is what I appreciate the most.

rhGH & testosterone are AMA / FDA approved to treat the S&S of low hormone production. In the course of balancine hormone levels to the levels present in younger adult hood many medical conditions of middle age improve.

many mental, cognitive & medical conditions are related to the deminished hormone production of aging.

Interesting that a trial began in France this week over cadaver hGH / CJD ... 20 years to court.

a close friend & high school multi sport all state type was recently dxed with CJD

(CJD & mad cow almost same same)

.. bet his dad had him on cadaver hGH in the 60s ..

Jerry was the guy that returned punts & punted .. ran & swam faster than anyone ..

& Jerry had the babes .. bevies of 18 YO supple lasses or a fat wife in a lazy boy 40 years later .. jerry's dad may have been right!

oh, HRT don't keep you out of the gym!

Edited February 13, 2008 by pumper

[jetjock]

1st I do not care what you believe as long as you make posts regarding medical care based on science & medical evidence.

hGH does not cause cancer

stating hGH causes cancer has irritated me ..

THERE IS NO CLINICAL EVIDENCE hGH CAUSES CANCER .. bio synthetic hGH has been used for over 20 years & no relationship with cancer has been presented

.. & you cite alzado as proof of your hGH / cancer statement .. lof'nl!

Pehaps some roid rage is showing as I am not sure exactly what you were reading since I never said HGH causes cancer but just pointed out that Lyle Alzado, who claimed he was a heavy HGH user, had made that statement so if you want to argue with someone then go argue with his corpse. If he were still alive, I doubt that you would have the nerve to argue with him as he was one pretty bad dude. I readily admit that I do not know the answer to the question if HRT increases the risk of cancer however since you apparently you have all the medical evidence, I suggest you publish an medical paper on HGH and explain how it has absolutely no link to cancer and how testosterone levels have no effect on the growth and metastisis of prostate cancer or any other type of cancer. Good luck !

[pumper]

"His choice of steroids was HGH which he used quite heavily at times."

"blaming his death on his abuse of HGH in his later years. The truth is that whether his abuse of HGH was the actual cause his brain cancer, as he claimed it was, will never be known."

"I suggest you publish an medical paper on HGH and explain how it has absolutely no link to cancer and how testosterone levels have no effect on the growth and metastisis of prostate cancer or any other type of cancer"

>>> many leading & IMHO (intentionally?) false statements .. probably based on your beliefs, but certainly not based in fact<<

re: prove "it has absolutely no link to cancer"

prove a negative .. impossible

20 years of hGH treatment & there is no medical link to cancer.

.. again there is no link to hGH causing cancer as of February, 2008 .. after 23 years of use

for you:

prove bowel movements have no link to brain cancer .. every one that has had brain cancer has had bowel movements.

example: alzado did not do cadaver hGH after '85 or '86 as you definitively state he did 'til '90

Your (intentional?) distortions & authoritative mis statements do a legitimate discussion a disservice.

"testosterone levels have no effect on the growth and metastisis of prostate cancer or any other type of cancer"

we were talking about hGH .. if you can't win 1 discussion, change the topic & demand proof of a negative (junior high debate society B team?)

testosterone does links to alzheimer's prevention & testosterone does have links to cardiac health

not sure T has links to metastasis (i believe you are again raising a red herring!)

but T does definitely have links to prostate disease & why those on T should have proper labs & exams done

bumrungrad can do a sonogram of the prostate for those of us who do not want a gloved digital exam

...

people who speak authoritatively about things they know little of .. make MANY misstatement of medical fact in a discussion of health care irritate me

& can ( intentionally or unintentionally) do potential harm to others

you should not try to influence my .. or any other person's .. medical plan with bogus statements

your distortions (making up) of fact could cause a person to avoid a legitimate health plan because of you ill informed beliefs (or agenda?).

i care not what you do .. just do not make false statements regarding health care

intelligent discussion of fact is a win win .. presenting bogus facts results in wasted time

& I concede "know it all authoritative persons with out a single fact but full of belief" irritate me.

[jetjock]

According to you, I obviously have been reading all the wrong information in the medical journals and did not realize that there is such a small risk in the use of anabolics but since you are obviously a know-it-all from your selective research and enjoy being on a soapbox and espousing the lack of risk of anabolic drugs to the masses, I will look forward to you publishing your research in the medical journals. I enjoy informed discussions but not with people that twist words into something that was never said just for the sake of an argument. Have fun and enjoy the topic.