Usufruct For Land In Wife's Name But House In Mine

[tuffy]

Here is my situation, let me know if it sounds like I have the facts right.

My wife and I are buying land (in my wife's name only of course), after we pay it off this year then I will apply for an usufruct.

- basically this will protect my interests and gives me the right to live there for my lifetime in the event of her passing before me

(but no protection in a divorce?)

After receiving the usufruct I will build a house in my name.

How can I improve my position further or is this as good as it gets? I trust my wife and don't see a divorce in the future but that seems to be one of the oldest mistakes in the book so I would like a some legal protection "just in case".

Is the basic usufruct sufficient or are there additional clauses i need to add?

Currently I have a 1 year multiple entry "O" visa giving me 90 days per entry. Is this visa sufficient to buy a house and enter into a usufruct?

[WilliamJarvis]

^you would need to check that very carefully. Or have a well written agreement. The issue of the land is clear. But as you are already married (i) can a wife agree, contractually, to give a husband a usfruct under the terms of "common ownership" - CCC? - probably (IMO); (ii) the crux, it is almost certain the house, unless you include some other form of agreement, such as a lease, would be included as part of the "common ownership" rules; thus form part of her estate if she died.

Edited February 6, 2008 by WilliamJarvis

[tuffy]

^you would need to check that very carefully. Or have a well written agreement. The issue of the land is clear. But as you are already married (i) can a wife agree, contractually, to give a husband a usfruct under the terms of "common ownership" - CCC? - probably (IMO); (ii) the crux, it is almost certain the house, unless you include some other form of agreement, such as a lease, would be included as part of the "common ownership" rules; thus form part of her estate if she died.

There is no easy answer I know but what is the best way to go in this situation? Would it better to include the house in the Usufruct or am I just dreaming that there is any protection for a Farang here?

[tuffy]

Apparently No one else has any advise.....Thanks anyway?

[ZEAK]

If I were you, and I am in the near future, I would sit down with a lawyer and discuss ALL the options. I have a good one in CM if you need, send me a PM. Best of luck to you both.

[Marvo]

Tuffy, haven't got time to elaborate but check this!

The Thai legal system recognizes the special relationship between husband and wife in Section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code and offers both spouses the option (without grounds) to avoid any agreement concluded between them during marriage.

[tuffy]

Tuffy, haven't got time to elaborate but check this!

The Thai legal system recognizes the special relationship between husband and wife in Section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code and offers both spouses the option (without grounds) to avoid any agreement concluded between them during marriage.

So basically any lease or contract is no good for divorce but in case of her early death i may have a stump to stand on with an usurfruct anyway if i had to fight off her family, as long as she wills me the house that is in my name anyway??? My head hurts...and it isn't from the lack of booze!

[donx]

Tuffy, haven't got time to elaborate but check this!

The Thai legal system recognizes the special relationship between husband and wife in Section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code and offers both spouses the option (without grounds) to avoid any agreement concluded between them during marriage.

So basically any lease or contract is no good for divorce but in case of her early death i may have a stump to stand on with an usurfruct anyway if i had to fight off her family, as long as she wills me the house that is in my name anyway??? My head hurts...and it isn't from the lack of booze!

In my view, the best solution is for you to have assets outside of Thailand that you can claim to be yours and yours alone. That way if you are faced with splitting up, you keep the foreign assests and she keeps the Thai assets. That is my approach. It turns out that my foreign assets are worth much more than my wife's Thai assets. I'll be OK if things don't work out.

I also have an alternative approach which we may use in the future. That would be to put property assests in our children's names. Right now, I prefer my wife having control in case we decide to sell any of her land assets in pursuit of some better land (e.g. sell the rubber tree land for land to build a residence).

[Pib]

Currently I have a 1 year multiple entry "O" visa giving me 90 days per entry. Is this visa sufficient to buy a house and enter into a usufruct?

The visa is sufficient. In fact, the normal 30 day visit you get when arriving as a tourist is good enough.

[gdhm]

Here is my situation, let me know if it sounds like I have the facts right.

My wife and I are buying land (in my wife's name only of course), after we pay it off this year then I will apply for an usufruct.

- basically this will protect my interests and gives me the right to live there for my lifetime in the event of her passing before me

(but no protection in a divorce?)

After receiving the usufruct I will build a house in my name.

How can I improve my position further or is this as good as it gets? I trust my wife and don't see a divorce in the future but that seems to be one of the oldest mistakes in the book so I would like a some legal protection "just in case".

Is the basic usufruct sufficient or are there additional clauses i need to add?

Currently I have a 1 year multiple entry "O" visa giving me 90 days per entry. Is this visa sufficient to buy a house and enter into a usufruct?

Hi,

Your scenario is virtually the same as mine AND your expectations but wise concerns as well.

My wife has just bought Land 3 weeks ago (with money 100% gifted to her by me).

I took out a Usufruct on the Land (no house yet) on the same day as the Land was purchased and the Usufruct is registered on the Title deeds (important)/ Our house is being built in MY name.

Under the Usufruct I can use my wife's Land as I wish for my life provided I do not do anything harmful or illegal etc. (legally I could even throw her off it - will never do it of course). I am allowed to have a Tabien Baan -House register (Yellow for Foreigners) when the house is completed which can be very useful for many things.

The Usufruct gives me 100% protection until MY death whatever happens in the future to my wife (death, separation, divorce, her leaving the land to another in her will and dying before me . This is normal sort of wording and conditions I am told.

Additionally often there is a clause included in Usufructs going further, to say that IF you give a 3rd party a lease (say 30 years) for use of the land and your house then that person can remain until the 30 years up. EVEN if you died a day after the lease ended - they would be fully protected and could not be thrown off the land unless they breached the lease terms.

Check out Siam Legal and Sunbelt Asia's info on Usufructs easily found with an Internet search.

So, for Example worst case for wife who is land owner (when you have a Usufruct with satisfactory wording) scenario (that favours your interests only)

1) Wife walks out on you (divorces or not).

2) She cannot get you out of your house until you die. but you can keep her off her land as you have sole rights of usage during your lifetime.

(If you die then the Usufruct ends and you wife has 100% control and usage of the land -unless a lease has been previously granted by you -see next sentence)

3) You meet someone who you fall in love with or care about . At some stage, maybe you decide you may not live much longer but you want that person to continue being able to live in your house. You make a 30 year lease with that person and they are then protected for 30 years under that lease even if you die a day after the lease was contracted as the Usufruct would terminate upon your death BUT NOT the lease.

Usufructs can be worded to leave out the Lease clause I was told

My understanding is that the Usufruct must be registered with the Land Dept and on the Title deeds showing you as Usufructory.

Usufructs are only about 100 baht to set up. Leases much more costly as tax is paid on an assumed rental charge for the 30 years. Usufructs and Leases give different types of protection so it depends which is best for you or what you want.

With regard to the advice given by Marvo

Tuffy, haven't got time to elaborate but check this!

The Thai legal system recognizes the special relationship between husband and wife in Section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code and offers both spouses the option (without grounds) to avoid any agreement concluded between them during marriage.

I have also had this pointed out to me but also that it has not been tested in court to my adviser's knowledge so there may well be a question mark on whether it can be successfully invoked or not (but possibly). Then of course your wife would need to know of section 1469 anyway. Fair or not I suspect many would be unaware AND if so not have the money or whatever to follow it up (only guessing but must be costly I would have thought if so far the case law has not been tested on overturning a Usufruct between spouses).

Work around Just an educated GUESS. I suspect if you thought section 1469 may be used you could always see if you could arrange to do a 30 year lease with an ally (maybe you can lease to yourself OR the ally can sub lease back to you) thus retaining your rights to usage of the land for 30 years and IF you are around 50 years of age or over then 30 years may see you through your life without a problem. I feel certain that Section 1469 could not deny a Lease holder of their rights to a lease they have lawfully acquired and they would be a party to a contract between spouses when they took the Lease so I cannot see how Section 1469 could affect them.

Anyway (apart from the last paragraph) the above is my understanding of Usufructs and the protection given under them. Interested if anybody thinks differently and what and why.

Just for the record all I want is a home till I die even if things do not work out as I expect them to. I am making a will leaving my house and everything to my wife (12 years younger). If I die first, my wife has her Land under her full control as the Usufruct terminates (I have no intention of exercising the Lease option). If my wife Will's the Land (say to her son, my stepson) and then dies before me I am STILL OK as I am still protected under the Usufruct and my stepson automatically has full control and usage of the land upon my death when the Usufruct terminates (he is also in my Will as 100% beneficiary of my house ans assets should my wife predecease me.

Hopefully we are ALL fairly protected which is my desire.

I used an Isaan lawyer based in Khorat (Isaan Lawyers) as I live in Khon Kaen, for my wife's Land purchase and my Usufruct. I was very pleased with the advice, service and cost.

Hope this helps

Kind Regards

Dave

Edited February 10, 2008 by gdhm

[donx]

^Good post Dave. Sums up the situation very nicely. I didn't know about the 30 year lease being valid beyond the terms of the usufruct. I'm sceptical about that so I will wait to hear what others have to say.

I thought about what would need to be done to bring in a third party. The 30 year lease sounds like a good option.

Just be careful about that lease because you would give up your right of use for 30 years. Say you decided to separate from your spouse because you were infatuated with the young thing hanging around the bar you frequent. You set up a 30 year lease for your new love. A few months later you discover your young lover has moved on to her next target. She tells you to get the F off of her leased property. Now neither you nor your spouse (x-spouse?) have use of the land for 30 years.

The problem as I see it is finding a trustworthy third party. It is hard enough finding a trustworthy spouse and a trustworthy friend/ally for me would be even more difficult. You may have better Thai friends than I as you live in Thailand and I currently reside in farang-land.

Best of luck to you. Let us know if you end up getting setting up a 30 year lease to someone else or not. I'm guessing you would only do this if and when you felt your spouse was attempting to nullify the usufruct. I certainly would only use it as a last resort since, as you say, it is unlikely that your spouse will use section 1469.

[tuffy]

Dave, thanks for taking the time to pass on this info, exactly what i was waiting to hear! This will be the way i proceed as well.

One thing that WilliamJarvis brought up (in post #2) has me wondering is in case of my wifes death would the land and house go into her estate which then would be up for grabs by the relitives even though the house is in my name and I have an existing usufruct on the land.....

[wernerfreitag]

Here is my situation, let me know if it sounds like I have the facts right.

My wife and I are buying land (in my wife's name only of course), after we pay it off this year then I will apply for an usufruct.

- basically this will protect my interests and gives me the right to live there for my lifetime in the event of her passing before me

(but no protection in a divorce?)

After receiving the usufruct I will build a house in my name.

How can I improve my position further or is this as good as it gets? I trust my wife and don't see a divorce in the future but that seems to be one of the oldest mistakes in the book so I would like a some legal protection "just in case".

Is the basic usufruct sufficient or are there additional clauses i need to add?

Currently I have a 1 year multiple entry "O" visa giving me 90 days per entry. Is this visa sufficient to buy a house and enter into a usufruct?

HI Tuffy,

My wife bought land and I got the USUFRUCT at the Land Office without any probems last year .But both of you have to show up with passports etc. No visa requirements . I am still living in Germany and I came as a tourist. If you are legally married there is even no reson to pay money ( to your wife ) for getting the USUFRUCT rights .

It cost me only 165 BAHT .

If you are not married there has to be money in the contract. This means you need a contract , which could also add some more things . If I remember right , then you have to pay 3 percent tax on the contract money. Such contract should be done by a legal office. We got it from Sunbelt and they also helped us in the process. But it is quite easy.

The USUFRUCT is on Channote and I got the paper.

Best regards and good luck

Werner

[gregchambers]

You can also have a private mortagage put on the chanote for whatever money you gave the wife/girlfriend, plus I believe this can be passed on to someone othr than your wife on your death.

It is, though, a complete removal from reality that farang believe they can have protection from Thai laws, especially when living upcountry, where the solution to such pesky problems as farang expecting to be treated fairly is to have them killed... a lot of Thai men would do the deed for free.

And the idea that you can get rid of the wife and replace her with someone else whilst staying in the house beggars belief!

Sorry guys, you should be buying the wife a house at local prices and writing the money off, enjoying rent free living whilst you can.

[Maigo6]

Sorry guys, you should be buying the wife a house at local prices and writing the money off, enjoying rent free living whilst you can.

Agreed.

If you divorce, what do you think you will do, live in the house surrounded by her Family, or want to move away ?

If she died and the land would not go to her relatives until you died, would you sleep easy at night, surrounded by relatives that will benefit upon your death ?

My missus has the house, it's hers, that's it.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Maigo6

[gdhm]

Dave, thanks for taking the time to pass on this info, exactly what i was waiting to hear! This will be the way i proceed as well.

One thing that WilliamJarvis brought up (in post #2) has me wondering is in case of my wifes death would the land and house go into her estate which then would be up for grabs by the relatives even though the house is in my name and I have an existing usufruct on the land.....

Hi Tuffy,

Does not matter if your wife left everything (including the Land) to her family and not you. If you have a Usufruct then you have sole rights until YOU die. OK the land may become owned by X, Y Z should your wife die, BUT they must honour the Usufruct (it's the Usufructory's death that terminates the Usufruct, NOT the Land Owner's death).

Don't forget IF you have already paid and bought and registered Land in your wife's name without having a Usufruct in place at the same time then you cannot make your wife agree to one later and she could refuse you rights to the Land it or even sell it. Your ONLY lever if she is reluctant to sign a Usufruct would be "No Usufruct then no house building on your Land with my money, no home on your land"

To be honest my wife was a little concerned at first. She felt she had nothing to gain by signing a Usufruct and wanted me to trust her. Our joint Lawyer suggested that she should trust me by signing one and that it was only fair that I had some legal protection in a country where foreigners have few rights and especially as all the money initially was coming from my savings and none from hers .

I also pointed out to my wife that I had already shown MY trust in her transferring 1.1m Baht into her Thai Savings account for her to buy her land. After all she was in a position to "cut and run" and I would have had no powers to stop her.

Had my wife been unwilling to sing a Usufruct I do not think I would have built on the Land as I was too vulnerable legally and financially should the future change as I would risk losing house and home with no recompense which I could not afford.

Personally I would have gone 50% /50% on land and house had foreigners been allowed to own 50% of land but they are not, so I was forced to go for the next best protection for me of a Lease or Usufruct.

Tuffy, I suggest you and your wife speak with a Lawyer to get all angles and ramifications for you and your wife. I think I have covered them pretty well but they are the experts (not me).

I really recommend you use an English speaking Lawyer if you do not speak Thai. Ideally you need a firm with both Thai and English which the Lawyers I use was able to provide. My wife speaks English but not adequately to understand a Usufruct in English. Because we were able to speak with out Lawyers in both English and Thai we BOTH knew what we were agreeing to and signing which is important.

My Lawyer pointed out to my wife that she is further protected under Thai divorce laws to a right of 50% of everything we both have amassed/acquired since we married (unless a pre nuptial was registered at the Amphur office at time of marriage which negates this (cannot for Land ownership laws)

A word of warning on the point of Prenuptials for ALL (as I have mentioned the subject).

For a prenuptial to be valid it MUST be registered at time and with the marriage documents.

NO registration then it is VOID and it cannot be registered later. I have lost out big time on protection on this matter, as the Khon Kaen Amphur Officer refused to accept and register my Prenuptial and told me that my possessing the original was adequate and that they did not register or keep copies in that office. In my ignorance of Thai Law I did not know the registration was essential and now my new Lawyer tells me that my prenuptial is not worth the paper it was written on.

I feel I have wasted money having the prenuptial, drawn up by a former Lawyer AND cheated by that Khon Kaen City Amphur Officer who did not know her own country's laws and procedures (AND SHOULD HAVE). I tried very hard to have her accept it (coz the Amphur office in my first marriage had in Bangkok) but regretfully I had no idea how legally vital it was that she did at the time. If I had I would not have left without registration.

Luckily for me my current, and hopefully last, wife is NOT my gold digging lying first first wife (for 3.5 months only thankfully) and my current wife is an honourable lady who would almost certainly do the agreed and correct thing should we ever part and she Had already said this (but I could not make her in law).

Lawyer's cost (but not that much in Thailand) and they do protect their clients from their ignorance of Thai Law and procedures. Lawyers also protect their clients from ignorance on the part of Official Thai Depts. For instance, do NOT expect a small Land Office to know what a Usufruct is.

They may, but they also may well never have come across one and therefore would not necessarily know what to do to legalise it. After all Thai-Thai marriages do not often need Usufructs as both can own land.

I hope this helps

Kind regards

Dave

[gdhm]

You can also have a private mortagage put on the chanote for whatever money you gave the wife/girlfriend, plus I believe this can be passed on to someone othr than your wife on your death.

It is, though, a complete removal from reality that farang believe they can have protection from Thai laws, especially when living upcountry, where the solution to such pesky problems as farang expecting to be treated fairly is to have them killed... a lot of Thai men would do the deed for free.

And the idea that you can get rid of the wife and replace her with someone else whilst staying in the house beggars belief!

Sorry guys, you should be buying the wife a house at local prices and writing the money off, enjoying rent free living whilst you can.

Hi gregchambers,

Just a few thoughts

To be honest I feel it is unfair to assume all wives/husbands after a collapse in marriage are going to be killers or violent . Well I HOPE its unfair - GULP!!!!

I agree with much of your comments AND risk assessment and that the idea of kicking the wife off the land and replacing is abhorrent -But it could sort of happen.

For example: If the marriage failed (for one of many reasons) neither would wish to be with each other in the same house and the Foreigner with Usufruct (maybe with little free money after building/paying for a house) may choose to remain in the house. It is not inconceivable that he may meet another and live with or marry later).

If the husband has been the one to put in all the money, if the wife gets her divorce settlement then I feel most would respect the Usufructor rights to remain on the Land (as only one can) and accept they will get control and usage of the land when he dies (let us not forget many foreign husbands are older than their Thai wives by many years). I hope you have a little more faith in Thai Ladies than to think most would go for the "jugular" (whether fair morally or otherwise) in a failed marriage situation and resort to intimidation or violence.

Of course the land may NOT be in the area of where all the relatives are, but may be a different part of Thailand. Friends and sympathies may be more plentiful for the foreigner and not the ex wife (depends on individual circumstances). My example of what COULD occur under a Usufruct was ONLY to illustrate worst case scenario for the wife land owner (I felt it correct to mention it, but of course only a person of questionable character (or much hate for his wife) would do or consider doing such a thing.

I do not entire agree with you last Para. I agree the Thai law although not very supportive to foreigners it is nevertheless the Law of the land and foreigners do have some rights and protections under it.

I assume maybe you have adequate financial reserves to be able able to buy house and land in a wife's name and write it if if all goes "ape-shit", which is great and the best option all round if feasible. I suspect however many do not have such resources (me for example 55yrs old on my early retirement pension) and need to think about forms of possible legal protection even if not ideal.

Kind Regards

Dave

[donx]

Don't forget IF you have already paid and bought and registered Land in your wife's name without having a Usufruct in place at the same time then you cannot make your wife agree to one later and she could refuse you rights to the Land it or even sell it. Your ONLY lever if she is reluctant to sign a Usufruct would be "No Usufruct then no house building on your Land with my money, no home on your land"

At first I read this part and thought you were saying that once the land is bought you cannot get a usufruct. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you to say that once the land is bought you cannot make your wife agree to one later, but she may decide to agree to one later especially if she understands it is put in place to protect your rights from her family if she dies before you do.

[tuffy]

Don't forget IF you have already paid and bought and registered Land in your wife's name without having a Usufruct in place at the same time then you cannot make your wife agree to one later and she could refuse you rights to the Land it or even sell it. Your ONLY lever if she is reluctant to sign a Usufruct would be "No Usufruct then no house building on your Land with my money, no home on your land"

At first I read this part and thought you were saying that once the land is bought you cannot get a usufruct. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you to say that once the land is bought you cannot make your wife agree to one later, but she may decide to agree to one later especially if she understands it is put in place to protect your rights from her family if she dies before you do.

In my case the land is already bought but i will insist on an usufruct before the house is built. I am sure my wife won't have a problem and if she does then that may be a sign of a problem lurking in the shadows. I am not in a hurry at this point to start building and we are still looking for the perfect house plan anyway.

I just want to protect my intrest as best i can in case of death or divorce. My understanding is the best i can come out on a divorce is ha sip ha sip any way whether the house is in my name or not. but that is better than NO sip!

[gdhm]

Don't forget IF you have already paid and bought and registered Land in your wife's name without having a Usufruct in place at the same time then you cannot make your wife agree to one later and she could refuse you rights to the Land it or even sell it. Your ONLY lever if she is reluctant to sign a Usufruct would be "No Usufruct then no house building on your Land with my money, no home on your land"

At first I read this part and thought you were saying that once the land is bought you cannot get a usufruct. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you to say that once the land is bought you cannot make your wife agree to one later, but she may decide to agree to one later especially if she understands it is put in place to protect your rights from her family if she dies before you do.

In my case the land is already bought but i will insist on an usufruct before the house is built. I am sure my wife won't have a problem and if she does then that may be a sign of a problem lurking in the shadows. I am not in a hurry at this point to start building and we are still looking for the perfect house plan anyway.

I just want to protect my interest as best i can in case of death or divorce. My understanding is the best i can come out on a divorce is ha sip ha sip any way whether the house is in my name or not. but that is better than NO sip!

My Lawyer said you can have a Usufruct at any time but if possible then its neater at the same time as the Land is sold and transferred to your wife but there is no lessening of the Usufruct to have it later.

Sorry I was not clear. I just meant your wife does not have to agree to sign a Usufruct and if she were to refuse then there is not anything you can do. She may be potentially more agreeable sooner than later (depends completely on your relationship of course).

Kind regards

Dave

[Pierrot]

I'm not so sure I understand well but it seems that with the userfruct, we go for one extreme to the other, from the thai side having total control to the property to the other side getting this total control after signing the usurfruct.

My case may be a little different as my wife is working with an international company with a very decent salary, and beside the name on the papers, she provides her fair share of the money to buy our house too. So it seems fair that we share the control of our property.

To your knowledge, is it possible that we share the usurfruct of the property, with a provision that the total usurfruct goes to the last living person?

[gdhm]

I'm not so sure I understand well but it seems that with the userfruct, we go for one extreme to the other, from the thai side having total control to the property to the other side getting this total control after signing the usurfruct.

My case may be a little different as my wife is working with an international company with a very decent salary, and beside the name on the papers, she provides her fair share of the money to buy our house too. So it seems fair that we share the control of our property.

To your knowledge, is it possible that we share the usurfruct of the property, with a provision that the total usurfruct goes to the last living person?

To be honest that is a very good question and I have no idea on the answer or whether the Land owner can Usufruct partly to themselves. I am sure my Lawyers Isaan lawyers would be able to advise you. They give free quotes, so the question will probably be free as no doubt would it be with the other Lawyers who advertise on this Forum.

I agree with you. No Usufruct you (if the foreigner) has no control (unless you have alternatives such as a lease). With a Usufruct your wife has no control for many years (maybe not in her life time if you passed someone a 30 year lease shortly before your death.

I prefer the usual UK method 50%/50% on land and property BUT the Thai laws of Land ownership make that impossible so we are forced if we want some legal protection perhaps go more strongly than we wish.

At the end of the day its a matter of trust. Yo can chose to trust your wife 100% or she can trust you. Logic says the financial provider (or largest) deserves the most legal protection for their capital inflow IF one has ONLY an "either or choice". In your case where it sound like you wife is contributing equally, I agree it is a much harder situation but at least if something went very wrong in the future you only risk losing what you put in (50%) whereas many other foreigners have often invested 100% (or close) so have more to lose (maybe all their life savings).

MY solution: I am currently making a Thai Will leaving 100% of everything to my wife. SO if I die before her, the Usufruct cancels immediately anyway and the land is under my wife's 100% control to do as she wishes AND with the House 100% in my name she will get it 100% under the provisions of your Will and everything else I own.

You can ask your Wife to make a Will leaving you 100% in the the event of HER death prior to you. I am informed she can leave you her land but you have only 12 months to move it on to a Thai National (I am unsure if you can get paid for selling it during that period- check with a lawyer). Of course Wills are not legally binding and can be changed at any time and there is nothing you or your wife can do to stop the other doing so therefore trust is required. I think it obvious that if you divorced and met other partners then each of you WOULD almost certainly change your Wills (as would most). So this has to be borne in mind.

One final comment. If you feel the Usufruct is too strong in your favour I am told by my Lawyer you do not have to include the ability for you to lease the land to another clause. This would mean your wife knows 100% that she will get full control of your land if and when you die before her as there is no chance of another having some 30 years leasing rights. Maybe this is the best way to go.

At the end of the day how trustworthy are each of you in a failed future marriage situation to the other and if you do not know, who do you each feel should be better protected and what do you feel is fairest with the options available. Only you and your wife can answer such questions.

I DO feel a Will is vital. If one of you dies within marriage to each other then I am sure you both would wish the other to be fully protected With the "no Will (Intestate) situation there is a possibility of confusion, or desires of the departed not happening and MAYBE family infighting over who gets what.

Do not forget if the Land is 100% your wife's (as Law dictates) and the house 50%/50% in your case and the there is NO Will monies get distributed to children and parents and spouse etc. in Thailand (check the exact splits with your Lawyer). IF you wife was to die first you may have no land and only 50% of the house BUT with a Usufruct you would retain control of the Land BUT if your wifes share of the house did not go to nor any monies could you find the money/and agreement to "buy out" what was inherited by others? The same applies for your wife if you have no Will (but she at least would have the Land (so seems in a better position than you if Wills did not exist.

I wish to point out I am not in the legal business and never was so I informing you in Good Faith based upon what my lawyers and what my research has found out. I am raising what I feel intelligent questions and concerns BUT only a good Lawyer can confirm for sure their validity or risk factors.

I hope I have raised some useful questions and options. Sorry I do not know the answer to your primary question. If what you suggest is possible then it seems a very interesting option.

Kind Regards

Dave

[donx]

MY solution: I am currently making a Thai Will leaving 100% of everything to my wife. SO if I die before her, the Usufruct cancels immediately anyway and the land is under my wife's 100% control to do as she wishes AND with the House 100% in my name she will get it 100% under the provisions of your Will and everything else I own.

Do not forget if the Land is 100% your wife's (as Law dictates) and the house 50%/50% in your case and the there is NO Will monies get distributed to children and parents and spouse etc. in Thailand (check the exact splits with your Lawyer). IF you wife was to die first you may have no land and only 50% of the house BUT with a Usufruct you would retain control of the Land BUT if your wifes share of the house did not go to nor any monies could you find the money/and agreement to "buy out" what was inherited by others? The same applies for your wife if you have no Will (but she at least would have the Land (so seems in a better position than you if Wills did not exist.

Kind Regards

Dave

You speak mostly of protections in the event that either you or your wife dies. You say you have 100% ownership of the house. My question to you is if you were to get a divorce wouldn't the house be considered a marrital asset that was purchased after you were married and therefore legally owned 50%/50% between you and your spouse? Or is this considered outside the marrital assets because you used money aquired by you proir to your marriage and you have records indicating this is the case?

I have a friend in the US that used inheritance money he received prior to getting married to purchase a house after he was married. When he got divorced he was able to prove he used this money and thus ended up being the majority owner of the house (something like a 95%/5% split in his favor) after the divorce. He received that percentage when the house was eventually sold.

Even though my wife doesn't have a paying job, she does take care of our 3 young children and thus I feel the same way as Pierrot does regarding the unfairness of the usufruct. That is why my solution is to have property in my name alone that I own in the US and let my wife own all of "our" property in Thailand.

Everyone has to discover what their comfortable doing. Someone else recently started a thread saying he wasn't going to buy anything in Thailand and rent here instead. He found his comfort zone. This is what we all must do.

[Pierrot]

I agree that the main problem is in case of the unfortunate death of the Thai spouse. In my case I completely trust my wife but should something happend I would rather solve some issues now than to have to negociate with my inlaws later.

If you're alone, you just move away, probably the best thing to do, but if you have kids or if you're involved in some kind of commercial activity, things may get a bit more complicated.

[gdhm]

MY solution: I am currently making a Thai Will leaving 100% of everything to my wife. SO if I die before her, the Usufruct cancels immediately anyway and the land is under my wife's 100% control to do as she wishes AND with the House 100% in my name she will get it 100% under the provisions of your Will and everything else I own.

Do not forget if the Land is 100% your wife's (as Law dictates) and the house 50%/50% in your case and the there is NO Will monies get distributed to children and parents and spouse etc. in Thailand (check the exact splits with your Lawyer). IF you wife was to die first you may have no land and only 50% of the house BUT with a Usufruct you would retain control of the Land BUT if your wifes share of the house did not go to nor any monies could you find the money/and agreement to "buy out" what was inherited by others? The same applies for your wife if you have no Will (but she at least would have the Land (so seems in a better position than you if Wills did not exist.

Kind Regards

Dave

You speak mostly of protections in the event that either you or your wife dies. You say you have 100% ownership of the house. My question to you is if you were to get a divorce wouldn't the house be considered a marrital asset that was purchased after you were married and therefore legally owned 50%/50% between you and your spouse? Or is this considered outside the marrital assets because you used money aquired by you proir to your marriage and you have records indicating this is the case?

I have a friend in the US that used inheritance money he received prior to getting married to purchase a house after he was married. When he got divorced he was able to prove he used this money and thus ended up being the majority owner of the house (something like a 95%/5% split in his favor) after the divorce. He received that percentage when the house was eventually sold.

Even though my wife doesn't have a paying job, she does take care of our 3 young children and thus I feel the same way as Pierrot does regarding the unfairness of the usufruct. That is why my solution is to have property in my name alone that I own in the US and let my wife own all of "our" property in Thailand.

Everyone has to discover what their comfortable doing. Someone else recently started a thread saying he wasn't going to buy anything in Thailand and rent here instead. He found his comfort zone. This is what we all must do.

Hi,

As I said before I agree about the Usufruct being controlling of the land Owner and I do not particularly like it. However, many are not in your situation. I am in early retirement and only 55 . All the money to buy the land and house and everything comes from my ONLY assets outside Thailand (just sold my Spanish house and car and some contents. We live on my pension.

Also don"t forget the Usufruct controls the Usufructory as well. You may be able to live in you house till death BUT you can never sell your house YOU may own 100% as you do not own the land (unless you and the Land owner come to an agreement outside the Usufruct).

Suppose you divorce acrimoniously - as someone suggested earlier "would you wish to live in the district of your Ex and her family and friends"?. If all your assets were in the House then you would have no option. You would probably be even less happy, if you met someone else and lived in that house with all the Ex's hostile relations close by.

All I seek for MYSELF is NOT to throw my wife off the Land and to live with my wife happily until hers or my death with the knowledge but no matter what scenario may occur in the future I will always have a home until my death.

If there is NO legal protection for me in place and my wife died or, heaven forbid, left me for another (which I am sure will never happen) without a Usufruct (or something) I could be at some time in the future thrown off the land (I paid for), unable to live in the house that is 100% owned and paid for by me, unable to sell my house and trying to survive with no assets except my pension. Meanwhile others could live on the land and in my house. Now I ask, "is that POSSIBLE scenario fair to leave 100% to trust , chance and perceived certainty of what the future may bring with all its scenarios.

Your understanding is the same as mine regarding a Divorce situation. In a divorce a 50%/50% split of assets since marriage would be normal. That is why many make prenuptial contracts to safe guard prior assets of both parties.

I did (as I mentioned in an earlier message). Mine is VOID because although contractually sound the Khon Kaen Amphur Office refused to register or hold a copy at the time of marriage. I was told having the contract in my possession was enough and "they do not do that".

Well, in an unrelated conversation a few weeks back with my current Lawyer, I happened to tell him this story and was shocked to learn they MUST register a prenutial because if the prenuptial is NOT registered AT TIME of marriage then it is VOID and cannot be registered at a later date. That Amphur person not only wasted my money getting the contract drawn up, she was wrong about her duties and she has made me legally vulnerable where I did the correct things to protect myself.

My lawyer tells me the only saving option open to me is a POST NUPTIAL contract and register that But of course 20 months into my marriage asking my wife to do that sounds highly distrusting of her and she is less likely now married to sign away protection even though she would only be ratifying what she has already agreed. I do not feel I can ask this of her (even though wise to reinstate what we thought existed).

My lawyer,has a sense of humour and said one way around it (suggested by a Thai colleague working in his office) is to divorce in an Amphur Office. Get a new Embassy letter saying I am free to marry. Remarry armed with divorce papers AND new prenuptial make sure its registered this time. Back to square one and not very expensive Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......

I am learning form several occasions during my 20 months here that it is very unwise to assume Government offices/officers are equally knowledgeable or consistent in all aspects of their jobs , especially when dealing with matters that are not that common for them to deal with.

Even water & electricity companies. Armed with my Usufruct and an existing Yellow (for foreigners) Tabien Baan, I already had, I went to get water and electricity connected to the land so building can commence

Both offices were astonished a Farang can have a Tabien Baan AND in the case of the Electricity Company they did not know what a Usufruct was and refused to accept my Usufruct and signatures instead they demanded my wife's as land owner to sign everything (they did get me to sign but I am sure it was a thing of not wishing to disrespect me rather that wanting it (as it was very much "if you want to") .

This was OK with me BUT they were wrong as I have sole rights and the lands owner cannot do anything on the Land (only I can). Luckily we are married so no problem but had the Land owner been a non relative I could have had a problem.

Lawyers cost (but are pretty cheap in Thailand compared to the West) and very cheap if they save their client from making errors or from client or official ignorance.

If you think a prenuptial or Usufruct is distrusting may I refer you to my 1st trusting marriage of 3.5 months to a young Thai lady.

I was the only one who did not know that my wife had a boyfriend and her agenda was 100% to get gold and items and to get me to buy a car and house in her name and then ditch me. She had not allowed for the prenuptial that she had signed (nor the fact I needed to first sell my house in Spain first to do so (not quick in a dead market) - she should have believed me I had no other money but arrogantly thought all Farangs lie and downplay to Thai Ladies about the assets they own).

I was VERY reluctant to take out a prenuptial (so distrusting I thought) but did so under my Thai Lawyers' VERY STRONG ADVICE TO DO SO whatever my feelings and trust may be. (that one was registered - not that I realised the necessity). My Ex cost me around 500,000 baht in 3.5 months and I was very lucky. Her whole family and friends and many acquaintances were well aware of the situation and those English speaking friends were often (I later found out) cautioned IN THAI and in front of me) when they were in danger of blowing the lid on the plans of my "Wife from hel_l"). I trusted my 1st wife 100% - what can I say????

At the end of the day we must all make our decisions. Many say love should not influence one to make poor financial decisions without contracts and legal protection in place. Love is not always the best judge and can be very blind).

It is easy to say "if you trust me..." and I am sure every convincing con artist has used that line to weaken resolve or wisdom. A person once wisely told me "the most convincing people are EITHER 100% genuine OR highly accomplished liars and con persons.

Let's be honest whilst I understand the "if you trust me" from a genuinely good person they SHOULD if the truly love you feel happy you feel legally protected and they should not be bothered. After all IF they love and trust you why should they worry AND these contracts are ONLY going to be acted upon in the event of a breach of trust or maybe action by a less than decent person.

It is so hard to know what is right and fair. Each must discuss with their partners and wives and try to come to an understanding where both as far as possible are comfortable. If a wife is VERY unhappy with Usufructs, leases & pre nuptials when they know all funds have often been sourced by their partner's saving and earnings then maybe one should wonder why there is so much concern - Do they distrust you to do the fair and correct thing at all times, do they think you should not protect previously owned income and they should have full control/ownership (if so hardly fair or equitable) , are they desiring a weakness in your protection in case things go bad that would leave them in a MORE favourable position than you.

Ideally a 50%/50% situation is best. In the absence of Thai Law that permits that, are you happy/able to afford to have a 75% or 100% wife/partner takes all situation IF the "sh*t his the fan at some time in the future. At the end of the day its entirely up to you and your wife. In all honesty sadly many a decent Thai Lady and many a decent Farang have been victims to partners they 100% trusted and put their entire faith into.

After several or many years of marriage a wife/partner has every moral and probably legal right to have a share maybe big in any assets, as a marriage is not only about money and thus it is so hard to work these contracts to fair and equal for all scenarios for all occasions.

For myself and may wife I am sure these legal documents (apart form our wills) are unnecessary and will never be relevant. My only real fear is a change in Immigration and Visa regulations making me/us have to leave Thailand and us needing to be able to realise any assets quickly if my family and I are to be secure and happy.

I hope each of you find the best, amicable, correct and balanced solutions that meet the various needs for both you AND your spouses

Kindest Regards to all

Dave

[KK-Mike]

You can also have a private mortagage put on the chanote for whatever money you gave the wife/girlfriend, plus I believe this can be passed on to someone othr than your wife on your death.

It is, though, a complete removal from reality that farang believe they can have protection from Thai laws, especially when living upcountry, where the solution to such pesky problems as farang expecting to be treated fairly is to have them killed... a lot of Thai men would do the deed for free.

And the idea that you can get rid of the wife and replace her with someone else whilst staying in the house beggars belief!

Sorry guys, you should be buying the wife a house at local prices and writing the money off, enjoying rent free living whilst you can.

This is the best advice of this entire thread. Do not put any money in this country you are not willing to walk away from if the situation should arise.

[scotsman]

If anyone wants to put money into a house & land in this country then its better to have some form of protection incase your Thai wife should die before you, So a usufruct is a very good way to protect you from the family thats left. Not all Thai familys are bad but you just cant take the chance & if they want to kill you then thats up to them life is one big gamble. Then you must also have a good will in Thai & English with your wife leaving the property to you so that you can have at least 1 year to get your property sold or put into another Thai persons name. I agree that you should not put money into property that you cant walk away from. But also you should not buy a house in this country as a investment it should only be for living in but if your lucky you might make money on it as a couple. The mortagage idea is what I did when I first bought a house with my girlfreind but When we married we had to remove this from the chanote as a wife cant use your money to buy property its got to be her money & you sign a affidavit to this effect. I think that if you are going to be living here for the next 10 to 20 years then buying a small house is the cheapest way as the rents are going up all the time. If you are only going to be living here for a short time then renting is the way to go.

Regards

Scotsman

[scotsman]

If anyone wants to put money into a house & land in this country then its better to have some form of protection incase your Thai wife should die before you, So a usufruct is a very good way to protect you from the family thats left. Not all Thai familys are bad but you just cant take the chance & if they want to kill you then thats up to them life is one big gamble. Then you must also have a good will in Thai & English with your wife leaving the property to you so that you can have at least 1 year to get your property sold or put into another Thai persons name. I agree that you should not put money into property that you cant walk away from. But also you should not buy a house in this country as a investment it should only be for living in but if your lucky you might make money on it as a couple. The mortagage idea is what I did when I first bought a house with my girlfreind but When we married we had to remove this from the chanote as a wife cant use your money to buy property its got to be her money & you sign a affidavit to this effect. I think that if you are going to be living here for the next 10 to 20 years then buying a small house is the cheapest way as the rents are going up all the time. If you are only going to be living here for a short time then renting is the way to go.

Regards

Scotsman

[scotsman]

If anyone wants to put money into a house & land in this country then its better to have some form of protection incase your Thai wife should die before you, So a usufruct is a very good way to protect you from the family thats left. Not all Thai familys are bad but you just cant take the chance & if they want to kill you then thats up to them life is one big gamble. Then you must also have a good will in Thai & English with your wife leaving the property to you so that you can have at least 1 year to get your property sold or put into another Thai persons name. I agree that you should not put money into property that you cant walk away from. But also you should not buy a house in this country as a investment it should only be for living in but if your lucky you might make money on it as a couple. The mortagage idea is what I did when I first bought a house with my girlfreind but When we married we had to remove this from the chanote as a wife cant use your money to buy property its got to be her money & you sign a affidavit to this effect. I think that if you are going to be living here for the next 10 to 20 years then buying a small house is the cheapest way as the rents are going up all the time. If you are only going to be living here for a short time then renting is the way to go.

Regards

Scotsman

[scotsman]

dont know why i got treble post there.