Uk Court Orders In Thailand

[silentnine]

i'll try and keep short and too the point as i've posted on other forums but not had definative answers as the issue got clouded

I live in thailand (15kms from pattaya)

i have x-wife (4 yrs ago divorced) in england and a 8(nearly 9) year old son.

he now go to live with me in thailand as his mother is unable to care for him.

a contact order is to be made in addition to the residence order.

the contact order , a UK order carries no weight in thailand as thailand is a non-hague convention country.

i need to find out :

can a UK court contact order be mirrored or registered in thai court.

if yes how and who can do it. ie i need a lawyer but who.

if it cannot be done then to quote my lawyer in the UK

"you still need a letter from the lawyers confirming what orders if any or

procedures if any that can protect x-wifes contact by the Thai legal

system And this needs to be translated and notarised "

so i need to get in writing from a lawyer here in thailand , prefer near pattaya, a letter saying what can and cannot be done so i can give this to my UK lawyer .

i have seen a few supposed international law firms in pattaya so far but none seem sure enough to put pen to paper and commit.

[Boo]

Can you just clarify, is your ex wife from the UK or thailand?

Thanks

[Mahout Angrit]

It's also not clear to me (although maybe I'm just being dumb) what you exactly want.

What will the contact order/residence order define?

Do you want sole custody?

Do you want your ex wife prevented from contacting your son?

Do you want to regulate her contact?

Do you just want to get him to Thailand to live with you?

I cant help you with any legal advice but I'm sure those who can will need to know the answers

[kingwilly]

i'll try and keep short and too the point as i've posted on other forums but not had definative answers as the issue got clouded

I live in thailand (15kms from pattaya)

i have x-wife (4 yrs ago divorced) in england and a 8(nearly 9) year old son.

he now go to live with me in thailand as his mother is unable to care for him.

a contact order is to be made in addition to the residence order.

the contact order , a UK order carries no weight in thailand as thailand is a non-hague convention country.

i need to find out :

can a UK court contact order be mirrored or registered in thai court.

if yes how and who can do it. ie i need a lawyer but who.

if it cannot be done then to quote my lawyer in the UK

"you still need a letter from the lawyers confirming what orders if any or

procedures if any that can protect x-wifes contact by the Thai legal

system And this needs to be translated and notarised "

so i need to get in writing from a lawyer here in thailand , prefer near pattaya, a letter saying what can and cannot be done so i can give this to my UK lawyer .

i have seen a few supposed international law firms in pattaya so far but none seem sure enough to put pen to paper and commit.

issue clouded? or your post?

I've got no idea what you are talking about, its no wonder that you havent got clear answers from other forums.

[silentnine]

yes i guess by shortening it i did miss to much out .

heres the longer version --

have relocated to pattaya, I live in a lovely 3 bedroomed bungalow with private swimming pool have my own new car. I still own my home in the UK, however its rented out long term giving me a reasonable base income. no car in the UK or anything , sold everything other than the house so if all in LOS fails I still have a roof to go back to if need be , although I'd have to wait for my tenants to leave before I could have my own house to live in. (there are on gaunrenteed tenancy so i cannot just evict)

I was married in the UK, but divorced some 4 years ago. I have a 8 year old son in the UK who WAS living with his mother. His mother has long term psychiatric problems and my son has been removed from her and given to me, however my (elderly) mother in the UK is looking after him at the moment while I sort things out over here in LOS. I have got him into a nice international school over here ready for when he comes.

son in question is british (8 nearly 9yrs old - ed visa i guess)

mother is british (retirement visa)

i am british ,i'm 42 , on a class B multi entry visa (WP)

there will also be other family members but they don't come into the story on this

also have family here in los, & Baby due (50/50 thai/farang) in 4 months so return to UK means a relocation of them which is not something they want.

now my dilemma . the UK courts to approve his move to Thailand as a permanent removal from there jurisdiction will want to firm up the contact arrangements for him and his mother . these being 4 visits per year, funded 50/50 my myself and his mother for her to come and visit Thailand (wow ! half price holiday for her so they will wish to make a contact order along with my residence order . sounds easy doesn't it ! LOL now my UK lawyer is going on about either wanting to register or mirror said contact order in the Thai judicial system as of course they will say they are worried as Thailand is not a signatory of the Hague convention regarding children and his mother is worried one he gets here she could never see him again. my problem is I've been to visit 10 Thai international law firms so far this week and had lengthy appointments. the result being in all cases they say a UK contact order cannot be registered or mirrored in Thailand unless there is a half Thai element involved . of course we're all farang ! so is this right or as I suspect the advise I'm had so far is because its just not been done by these companies before . the way my UK lawyer is explaining it is that there half right. the order cannot be registered or mirrored against my will, i.e. if I had abducted him and brought him here the UK contact order does not matter , but beware if I ever go back to the UK as I'd get arrested for child abduction !. so the way it it done is the order is registered or mirrored with all parties approval before the act. so enabling enforcement should I decide to give his mother a 2 finger salute. Now OK . I'd prefer no order, and I'd love to give her a 2 finger salute !. but its not a matter of that . its a matter of its only fair for son & mother to see each other. and she and the court want this order over here to make sure all goes well . so my options . get the order. (well, just find out how and tell the UK lawyers team to do it) allow my son to go into care as my mother cannot look after him forever as she's too old ! (not an option really is it !) give up on los, and go back to England , sign on the dole, hope my tenants move out and suffer . or if its right that no order or anything alike can be done, show evidence that it cannot be done and offer surety to the courts in some manner .

oh and before I forget my mother in the UK who is looking after my son is also wanting to relocate here ! (not sure if that good for me or not but it will cure here arthritis & rheumatism I'm sure) suggestions on a postcard please or really i just need a good lawyer here in pattaya who knows the law and can give me a letter (will pay !!!) stating yes or no and why & how

preferably if the order cannot be mirrored/registered i just need to get a letter from a thai firm saying so and explaining what the law is here . so that if the issue is raised we can just say we've enquired and cannot do it . and then we can consider other options

--

What will the contact order/residence order define?

residence order will define he lives with me, contact order will subject to aproval define 4 visits per year funder 50/50 and telephoen contact

Do you want sole custody?

already have it

Do you want your ex wife prevented from contacting your son?

no, i am seeking permsion to relocate him to LOS, removal from UK jurisdiction

Do you want to regulate her contact?

no, contact fixed at face to face every 3 months + telephone contact

Do you just want to get him to Thailand to live with you?

yes. but not by burning the bridges in the UK and having an arrest warrant for abuduction waiting on my return.

x-wife will be opposing the removal. however as long as i can cover all bases it will most likely be approved as the alteranatives are not good for anyone.

hope this helps make me understood ..

Edited February 18, 2008 by silentnine

[Mahout Angrit]

I would have thought after visits to 10 different lawyers, all who have said a mirrored agreement isn't possible I would start to believe it. The problem you may find in Thailand is that you will eventually find one who says he can do it, he will take your money but not produce the results you expected.

So this is not an answer to your legal questions but more an outsider looking at your situation from a human angle (although I know you probably didn't want that).

You say your wife has had long term psychiatric problems, we don't know the cause of these (may have been you ), it doesn't make her a pariah, she is still your son's mother and I'm sure loves him and he her in their own way.

You have said it is a medical/psychiatric condition that prevents his mother from looking after him full time. I understand you may be frustrated by that but I think a contact order requesting mother to visit her son 4 times a year is reasonable

You presumably knew the split with your ex wife was inevitable, you may have even precipitated it and it was your decision to move to Thailand, start a new family and wish to remain in Thailand to live. Your ex wife or your son should not be penalised for that.

Why don't you just agree to the British courts ruling that she gets access 4 times a year. It doesn't have to mean that the ex comes to Thailand every 3 months , it could be that your son wants to visit UK. I would think you could even negotiate that he may have one long holiday instead of two separate visits.

In her condition she may be on benefits and unlikely to be able to afford to visit 4 times (even at 50% of the cost) so at most, at current low season air fares you could have to pay £1000 per year towards the cost of them visiting each other, yes a lot of money in Thailand but in fairness I think you should have counted that in when you decided that Thailand was the place for you.

Has she been ordered to contribute towards his upbringing and if so, is she likely to default on that? Could be a reason why she didn't get 4 visits a year if she did but if keeps to her side of any agreement it's only right that if you don't keep to yours then you should be picked up if you enter UK.

Sorry to be so brutal and not much help but I do hope you get it sorted satisfactorily for all parties

[silentnine]

I would have thought after visits to 10 different lawyers, all who have said a mirrored agreement isn't possible I would start to believe it. The problem you may find in Thailand is that you will eventually find one who says he can do it, he will take your money but not produce the results you expected.

So this is not an answer to your legal questions but more an outsider looking at your situation from a human angle (although I know you probably didn't want that).

You say your wife has had long term psychiatric problems, we don't know the cause of these (may have been you ), it doesn't make her a pariah, she is still your son's mother and I'm sure loves him and he her in their own way.

You have said it is a medical/psychiatric condition that prevents his mother from looking after him full time. I understand you may be frustrated by that but I think a contact order requesting mother to visit her son 4 times a year is reasonable

You presumably knew the split with your ex wife was inevitable, you may have even precipitated it and it was your decision to move to Thailand, start a new family and wish to remain in Thailand to live. Your ex wife or your son should not be penalised for that.

Why don't you just agree to the British courts ruling that she gets access 4 times a year. It doesn't have to mean that the ex comes to Thailand every 3 months , it could be that your son wants to visit UK. I would think you could even negotiate that he may have one long holiday instead of two separate visits.

In her condition she may be on benefits and unlikely to be able to afford to visit 4 times (even at 50% of the cost) so at most, at current low season air fares you could have to pay £1000 per year towards the cost of them visiting each other, yes a lot of money in Thailand but in fairness I think you should have counted that in when you decided that Thailand was the place for you.

Has she been ordered to contribute towards his upbringing and if so, is she likely to default on that? Could be a reason why she didn't get 4 visits a year if she did but if keeps to her side of any agreement it's only right that if you don't keep to yours then you should be picked up if you enter UK.

Sorry to be so brutal and not much help but I do hope you get it sorted satisfactorily for all parties

i think you have the wrong end of the stick or my post is bad

i'm not opposinmg contact , i'm agreeing with it

the issue is only that my lawyer seems to think the courts may want assurances that i will not break the agreement.

so he is thereforeasking me to get legal advise here about orders.

its not a matter of me agreeing . i already do . in fact i'd agree to more ! i just need to show that wahtever i agree to i can be held responsible for if i do not comply

[Mahout Angrit]

i think you have the wrong end of the stick or my post is bad

i'm not opposinmg contact , i'm agreeing with it

the issue is only that my lawyer seems to think the courts may want assurances that i will not break the agreement.

so he is thereforeasking me to get legal advise here about orders.

its not a matter of me agreeing . i already do . in fact i'd agree to more ! i just need to show that wahtever i agree to i can be held responsible for if i do not comply

Ok. I think I understand now However I'm now surprised that a lawyer in UK would expect a court in a foreign land (Thailand) to be able to place any jurisdiction on a foreign citizen especially one who is not even present in the country and does not hold residence permission. I'm sure that couldn't be done in UK either. Good luck