Why Bring Small Children On Holiday?

[Mark Wolfe]

I saw something the other day that added to this thread.

I met a mother and father pushing a stroller/pram across the sand-flats at low tide. I was walking the dogs and wandered over to chat. Apropos this topic, they said that their kid (I don't know how old the child was, maybe two years old) was a bit sick and they were clearly affected by this. It wasn't the kind of "sick" that would send them to the doctor, but the kind that makes children uncomfortable and, thus, alternately fidgety and temperamental and intermittently sleeping restlessly.

They hadn't been to any of the sites of the island, like the waterfall, for example, and said that with the child unwell, they were not planning on going. The vacation had become centered around the ill-feeling child. I felt bad for them as they were a swell young couple who clearly had had their holiday hijacked.

[ThaiBasil]

More and more it seems I see adults with their very young children here in Lamai. I suppose I can understand having your five-year-old or older along for the amusement of the adults (a five-year-old won't remember anything about the trip, except possibly a vague general memory at best -- a younger child will remember nothing), but bringing a baby seems insane.

An infant or even a kid of two or three is a chore at the best of times, so why would you bring one along on a vacation clear across the globe? Have these people never hear of babysitters?

Don't give me this, "They want to experience the holiday as a family" crap; it's easy to have a "holiday" for a day or so near your own home. Traveling on an airplane for hours with transfers and ultimately staying in a hotel or bungalow for days far from normal amenities with the constant attention a baby needs seems to defeat the purpose of a "vacation."

A "holiday" is defined as a time when one does not work. Taking care of a small child or infant is work, no question.

So why bring the baby along?

PS -- This has nothing to do with "liking children or not"; it's a matter of R&R (Rest and relaxation/ rehabilitation/ recreation).

Obviously you do not have children yourself, anywayzzzzz: Arj Barker (comedian) babies on flights video, it is hilarious:

[MSingh]

I saw something the other day that added to this thread.

I met a mother and father pushing a stroller/pram across the sand-flats at low tide. I was walking the dogs and wandered over to chat. Apropos this topic, they said that their kid (I don't know how old the child was, maybe two years old) was a bit sick and they were clearly affected by this. It wasn't the kind of "sick" that would send them to the doctor, but the kind that makes children uncomfortable and, thus, alternately fidgety and temperamental and intermittently sleeping restlessly.

They hadn't been to any of the sites of the island, like the waterfall, for example, and said that with the child unwell, they were not planning on going. The vacation had become centered around the ill-feeling child. I felt bad for them as they were a swell young couple who clearly had had their holiday hijacked.

I really wouldn't fancy you as a Dad...

You strike me as being very selfish Mark where Children are concerened so i hope you never have any, for the Kids sake..

[Oak]

I saw something the other day that added to this thread.

I met a mother and father pushing a stroller/pram across the sand-flats at low tide. I was walking the dogs and wandered over to chat. Apropos this topic, they said that their kid (I don't know how old the child was, maybe two years old) was a bit sick and they were clearly affected by this. It wasn't the kind of "sick" that would send them to the doctor, but the kind that makes children uncomfortable and, thus, alternately fidgety and temperamental and intermittently sleeping restlessly.

They hadn't been to any of the sites of the island, like the waterfall, for example, and said that with the child unwell, they were not planning on going. The vacation had become centered around the ill-feeling child. I felt bad for them as they were a swell young couple who clearly had had their holiday hijacked.

I really wouldn't fancy you as a Dad...

You strike me as being very selfish Mark where Children are concerened so i hope you never have any, for the Kids sake..

Imagine that.The kid wouldn't know if he is coming or going.

[ChangMaiSausage]

This has been one of the most interesting threads for an age.

Children come as a package sickness is one of the problems you have to deal with, I think I would be correct in saying that most people suffer from some kind of sickness the first time they visit a new country, adult, child, infant. Having travelled to Thailand many times I find that I don't suffer from the usual upset stomach ect. but everytime I travel with someone new they seem to suffer with an upset stomach.

It's up to you to decide if you want to take your children on holiday with you, Mark did you ask the couple if they considered leaving the child with family/friends/relatives whilst they took their vacation? I bet they never considered levaing their child.

[koheesti]

Just the other day I saw a disaster waiting to happen to some poor tourist kid at the stoplight in Bophut on the ring road where the turn off to Fisherman's Village is. If you're coming from Nathon and take a left at the light, the corner is pretty tight and not a safe place to walk what with cars and motorbikes driving on what little room there is for pedestrians (just a dirt path). I walk home that way sometimes and have to be extra careful and on the look out for these drivers. Anyway, I was on the back of a taxi bike going that way and there was a farang couple walking with their little girl, maybe 5 years old. They were holding her hand but had her walking on the edge of the street while walking around the corner. As we drove by I reached over and smacked the kid in back of her head to prove a point. OK, just kidding. I didn't smack the kid. But if I had maybe it would have made the parents more aware of their surroundings. As if the roads aren't unsafe enough without clueless parents putting their kids at even more risk.

[PatinBKk]

Could always chain them up in the shed for a few weeks....and if we are after R&R...why not leave the wife behind as well........have kids and that makes a family...families do things together, like holiday..DOH

[Rooo]

Could always chain them up in the shed for a few weeks....and if we are after R&R...why not leave the wife behind as well........have kids and that makes a family...families do things together, like holiday..DOH

I sometimes think , that in modern society, if you want to call it that, the sense of family unit has gone to some people.

Work, work, make money.Carers look after kids , 100 mile an hour, by then the kids are all grown up.

Good on them if they want to take their kids on holidays,nothing wrong with that, at least hopefully they will grow up having a lot better values.Who are we to judge?

[koheesti]

Could always chain them up in the shed for a few weeks....and if we are after R&R...why not leave the wife behind as well........have kids and that makes a family...families do things together, like holiday..DOH

There is a big difference between taking your toddler to Disneyland and taking your toddler to Samui. If that escapes any parent, they shouldn't be parents in the first place.

[Boo]

like what? I wouldnt take a toddler to disneyland at all, they are too young & there is too much to over stimulate them. I am a parent & a good one at that thanks. My son loved samui & we had no problem taking him there at all.

[Oak]

Please get real. Taking toddlers to Disneyland? You are missing the point. A family unit is as such , sleep , eat & live together & nurture your baby.

Unless you have experienced the joys of having a child,very hard to explain.

On the other hand, how many people do you hear, have stopped traveling or doing things because of children?

I say good on them, take them with you.

For any one to come up with this thread anyway, I reckon they have nothing better to do in life.

Next thing we will see is people on the larger side should pay more on planes thread or why should I be charged excess luggage when a larger person doesn't get charged for his weight .Oh lord what is this world getting too.

The Op should get a reality check on life & maybe start sorting out priorities in his life , before worrying about families taking their kids on holidays.

[Mark Wolfe]

Rooo:

Good on them if they want to take their kids on holidays,nothing wrong with that, at least hopefully they will grow up having a lot better values.Who are we to judge?

What is a three-year-old or younger going to get out of a vacation to Samui that will enable them to "grow up having a lot better values"?

Please explain.

As for the question of why didn't I ask this couple if they couldn't find someone to take care of the kids while then gallivanted across the globe...I'm not Gregory House.

[MrWiggle]

In 7 years we have not left our kids 'away' from us for a night....not one.

In 7 years we have not needed any 'away' time either and I have a great time showing my kids new things. it is also called learning.

My son still remembers a trip to Oz when he was 2yo, so base your points on other experiences you have.

I do agree with screaming kids on flights, but that is life, people have to travel these days, whether be for holiday or not.

It might come as a surprise to yu mark, but some parents do love their kids immensely and want to share and show them everything. Your parents probably had different thoughts and may have wanted you out of their lives asap.

[koheesti]

In 7 years we have not left our kids 'away' from us for a night....not one.

In 7 years we have not needed any 'away' time either and I have a great time showing my kids new things. it is also called learning.

My son still remembers a trip to Oz when he was 2yo, so base your points on other experiences you have.

I do agree with screaming kids on flights, but that is life, people have to travel these days, whether be for holiday or not.

It might come as a surprise to yu mark, but some parents do love their kids immensely and want to share and show them everything. Your parents probably had different thoughts and may have wanted you out of their lives asap.

Share everything? Like the tourists who bring their kids to Samui and ride around on a motorbike without a helmet? You might call that a learning experience but where I come from it would result in the parents risking jail time and potentially losing their kids.

[MrWiggle]

If you are stupid enough to do that, then so be it.

But don't try to hard to be the knob you seem to be naturally and don't put everyone in the same basket for the sake of it.

Some parents leave their brains behind when they go on holidays, most do not. How about yours ?

Edited July 21, 2009 by MrWiggle

[Birdman]

To smell, touch, hear, taste and see completely new things in nice surroundings broaden the understanding of the mind especially of a small child.

Many families come with their small kids and enjoy their holidays to the max. because of that. The vast majority have wonderful holidays here. Thai people love foreign children.

If someone cannot handle children on the plane, just make a seat reservation far away from the first rows (=usually the families seats) and come with ear plugs.

[koheesti]

To smell, touch, hear, taste and see completely new things in nice surroundings broaden the understanding of the mind especially of a small child.

Small children have enough "completely new things" to learn at home. Let them understand their own language first before conversing in Thai or how not to spit up their creamed carrots before sampling pad thai cooked in a less-than sanitary environment.

If someone cannot handle children on the plane, just make a seat reservation far away from the first rows (=usually the families seats) and come with ear plugs.

B.S. - children are the sole responsibility of their parents. It's not up to me or anyone else to plan ahead for bad parenting. Bottom line, if you choose to have kids then you have to learn to give some things up in life. If a person can't accept that, then they have no business being a parent in the first place.

As for this thread, I think there are several anti-kid positions;

1) It's a waste to bring an infant or toddler on vacation when in reality they won't get anything out of it ("oh! my 6-month old learned soooo much!") and the parents miss out on a whole lot.

2) Small kids are so much work you can see many parents not really enjoying their holidays. Sure, they'll talk about how wonderful it was but any objective observer can see them struggle most the time ("it's such a joy! you just don't understand!".

3) Samui is not a safe or clean environment to bring a small child. Not many cobras hiding in the grass at Disneyland.

4) Someone else's screaming kids can ruin a relaxing vacation both on the plane, around the pool, in a restaurant, etc.

[Birdman]

To smell, touch, hear, taste and see completely new things in nice surroundings broaden the understanding of the mind especially of a small child.

Small children have enough "completely new things" to learn at home. Let them understand their own language first before conversing in Thai or how not to spit up their creamed carrots before sampling pad thai cooked in a less-than sanitary environment.

If someone cannot handle children on the plane, just make a seat reservation far away from the first rows (=usually the families seats) and come with ear plugs.

B.S. - children are the sole responsibility of their parents. It's not up to me or anyone else to plan ahead for bad parenting. Bottom line, if you choose to have kids then you have to learn to give some things up in life. If a person can't accept that, then they have no business being a parent in the first place.

As for this thread, I think there are several anti-kid positions;

1) It's a waste to bring an infant or toddler on vacation when in reality they won't get anything out of it ("oh! my 6-month old learned soooo much!") and the parents miss out on a whole lot.

2) Small kids are so much work you can see many parents not really enjoying their holidays. Sure, they'll talk about how wonderful it was but any objective observer can see them struggle most the time ("it's such a joy! you just don't understand!".

3) Samui is not a safe or clean environment to bring a small child. Not many cobras hiding in the grass at Disneyland.

4) Someone else's screaming kids can ruin a relaxing vacation both on the plane, around the pool, in a restaurant, etc.

You did not understand a word. Nobody spoke about "have to learn" new things. It's a realizing process through the senses which works unconscious. By being in a complete new environment, that process will get other and new experiences in addition, which improves brighter perspectives, now and later.

For the rest of that post. There are people in this world, embittered and lonely, hating others for their joy. Remember John Lennon> All you need is love.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Birdman

[Boo]

lol, poor people cant handle families having a nice time or able to accept that their issues are entirely their own problem. ho hum.

I have to say though that I have been disturbed by drunk/obnoxious/irritating/annoying adults on planes & on the ground a hel_l of a lot more than I ever have by babies or kids. And thats in any country too

[ChangMaiSausage]

Let's face it Koohesti/Mark I think people appreciate what you are saying about noisy/screaming children, we have all experienced them at sometime be it our own children or other peoples accept it this is life. Children will always travel on vacation with their parents be it in Asia or America nothing will change that (imagine the ammount of money travel agents, airlines would loose in business if they decided to stop infants flying)

It all boils down to how the parents manage their children when they are upset/hurt/tired etc... I'd like to think that I'm a responsible parent, I've taken my son and daughter to Samui on several occasions and when we did we took a baby sitter with us. Daytime the children played on the beach and tired themselves out. On an evening the baby sitter took over so that Mum and Dad could spend some quality adult time together i.e. go out for a meal or drink.

[ady]

I've been lucky enough to have travelled to Asia and Australasia many times since more than 10 years, and like Boo, where I have had a poor flight experience, it's almost always been thanks to the boorish behaviour of adults who should know better - usually alcohol has been involved in the episode. Ultimately, scheduled flights are just another form of public transportation, and a ticket does not provide immunity from the attendant interaction with other members of the public that public transport usually involves - be it kids, drunks, incessant talkers, snorers, odours, etc.

In the last year, I have had the good fortune to become a parent, and travelled with my wife and 5 month old baby to Ko Pha Ngan for a one month holiday. Our boy was a pleasure to travel with - no one on the plane without sight of him knew our boy was there for the whole of the 4 flights we took.

The purpose of the holiday was to get away from the sheer slog that is life in London at the moment and to do so by catching up with the friends we have made in Thailand. Me and my wife missed out on nothing through having him with us on holiday and our baby knew we were more happy and chilled out than when on the treadmill back home, so it was win-win for all three of us.

We hired a jeep with seatbelts instead of a motorbike when we wanted to move around, so we adapted our behaviour to fit our new cirumstances, we didn't just carry on as in previous years - but adapting is not the same as compromising. The sunny view from the top of the road coming from Chaloklam to Thongsala, looking across the coconut groves to see Samui, floating in the blue sea wearing it's thundercloud hat, was not compromised because we had a jeep in place of a motorbike. The baby was often asleep in the jeep, so he'll likely have no comment to make later on this.

Maybe he won't recount in detail what a nice time he had in Thailand once he starts to talk, but he knew he was somewhere different and was having new experiences such as being in the sea or pool and not needing to wear so many layers as back home. The whole holiday experience forms part of the narrative of our young family, as did the family holidays me and my wife had with our respective parents over the years of our childhood.

Everyone posting here was a kid once, and I guess some enjoyed their childhood more than others for different reasons - it could depend on so many things like family circumstances, health, wealth or just the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Maybe some of the different viewpoints expressed by posters in this thread reflect the variability in peoples childhood experiences, maybe not.

Anyway, lunchtime has drifted by here in London with my thinking of those times. Does anyone out there on the islands want to swap with me for August and sit at my desk dealing with the inanity of my work inbox and meetings schedule, leaving me free to meander thoughlessly down the coast road from Haad Yao to Thongsala in pursuit of some odds and sods for the bungalow, stopping now and again to chat to a passing friend about the weather/business/local gossip/price of fish?

Oh well, thought not. Don't wish it away out there ......

[PatinBKk]

Could always chain them up in the shed for a few weeks....and if we are after R&R...why not leave the wife behind as well........have kids and that makes a family...families do things together, like holiday..DOH

There is a big difference between taking your toddler to Disneyland and taking your toddler to Samui. If that escapes any parent, they shouldn't be parents in the first place.

What is the difference...holiday is a holiday, whether it be Blackpool or Bermuda..

[richard_smith237]

I’m not a parent, but hope to be in the future.

IF taking a city break for a weekend etc I’d have no qualms about leaving my child with family (if in the UK) or with family (+maid if in Thailand).

However, for an extended holiday: i.e. a week or more then I imagine that my future wife and I would probably miss the enjoyment of our child enough for it to have a detrimental effect to the enjoyment of our holiday.

IMO Some active holidays such as skiing are not ideal for toddlers and children younger than say 5 years old, but in these cases there are always decent child minders and toddler groups so that the parents can get away (i.e. Mark Warner resorts) but then there is always a financial balance to achieve.

As far as flying from the UK to Thailand or Thailand to the UK is concerned, I believe it could be a real headache but there are some medicines out there to make your child more drowsy (the morality of these medicines is not something I’d have issue with). While the travelling is probably a headache – once at the destination I’m sure the pleasures of having a ‘family’ holiday is well worth the efforts.

I have had some nightmare flights were other peoples children run riot, babies scream and I flit between feeling annoyed and feeling sympathetic towards the parents – Noise cancelling headphones really assisted with this…

Babies, toddlers and children of any age are always met with great enthusiasm by the Thai's - its often a wonderful sight to see. My sisters family were quite taken aback by how the Thai's played with and entertained my little nephew while we were enjoying ourselves and relaxing.

[richard_smith237]

lol, poor people cant handle families having a nice time or able to accept that their issues are entirely their own problem. ho hum.

I have to say though that I have been disturbed by drunk/obnoxious/irritating/annoying adults on planes & on the ground a hel_l of a lot more than I ever have by babies or kids. And thats in any country too

And to add to this...

When drunk/obnoxious/irritating/annoying adults behave the way they do there is simply no excuse for their terrible and inconsiderate behavior.

When babies cry on planes there is little that can be done. And its easy for anyone who has had a cold on a flight to understand the discomfort a baby might feel with the depressurization - and often feeding etc seems not to help - A baby cannot be taught to equalize their sinuses.. There really is little which can be done other than leave them at home, but this thread has shown enough that this is not an alternative option.. So... wear noise cancelling head phones - i.e Bose Quiet Comfort 3 > Excellent !

When children are running around and being a little unruly I start to blame the parents for not having an adequate control.

Either way - the problems begins with the adults...

Edited July 21, 2009 by richard_smith237

[Birdman]

..............................

When babies cry on planes there is little that can be done. And its easy for anyone who has had a cold on a flight to understand the discomfort a baby might feel with the depressurization - and often feeding etc seems not to help - A baby cannot be taught to equalize their sinuses.. There really is little which can be done other than leave them at home, but this thread has shown enough that this is not an alternative option.. So... wear noise cancelling head phones - i.e Bose Quiet Comfort 3 > Excellent !

When children are running around and being a little unruly I start to blame the parents for not having an adequate control.

Either way - the problems begins with the adults...

If you can't find Asian equanimity on a plane, fly with a (homeopathic ) sleeping pill.

[Mark Wolfe]

ady

... travelled with my wife and 5 month old baby ...Maybe he won't recount in detail what a nice time he had in Thailand once he starts to talk...

"Maybe"? Maybe not anything at all, unless you imprint the past experience in him when he is older, as I suspect is the case with many.

"See the picture, honey? See the beach? There you are. You had such a good time, remember? We had fun at the beach, didn't we sweetie pie?" Say it enough and the child will "remember" the beach in Thailand. . .

MSingh:

You strike me as being very selfish Mark where Children are concerened so i hope you never have any, for the Kids sake..

Interesting you capitalize "children" and "kids" as if were were talking about God or Him.

Selfish means taking a little adult time for R&R? Selfish means by doing so, I am not at risk of disrupting the holiday of someone else (if even for a short time)? There is nothing wrong with kids, as long as they are properly prepared. I prefer a bit of Worcestershire sauce myself; brings out the tenderness.

Oh, and this idea that childless passengers on a plane should make plans to protect themselves from annoying infants is complete crap. That's exactly the same argument as saying that non-smokers should plan to protect themselves from smokers when they go to a restaurant. "Well, bring a mask, dillweed! Try sitting at a different table, numskull!"

And, I might add that for my part, in 30-some years of flying, I have never had any real problems with infants or adults. I have had experiences where babies were annoying, but that didn't last long -- why do you think they make the suction in the airplane toilets so powerful?

Also, apropos of adults getting sick on vacation being the same as that of a toddler; that doesn't wash. If an adult is sick he can take care of himself at the resort, hang out in the room or on a deck chair while the others in his group, or his partner, go off seeing the sights. I can't see mom and dad having a baby who is under the weather say, "Well, hel_l. We're already here, no sense letting this cramp our style. Leave the kid in the room, tell the front desk to look in on him and lets go see that wonderful butterfly garden!"

And I don't buy into this child development angle. I am sure my parents took me places that were interesting and not just in the sandbox in the back yard (which could have been a Thai beach for all I knew), but I can count on the fingers of one hand the memories of events from age five and younger (and they aren't very detailed or interesting). "My child knew he was at the beach and didn't have to wear the same clothing..." Woo...call Psychology Today magazine! He's probably now going to grow up to be a noted seaman or artist or fire-stick twirler...

I'm sure that playing Bach to the unborn baby via a speaker pressed to the mother's stomach really makes kids much more talented in the future, just as seeing older men sauntering around with young Thai babes (not babies mind you) on their arms will make kids appreciate more of the richness of human interactions when they get older...

As PatinBKk said: "What is the difference...holiday is a holiday, whether it be Blackpool or Bermuda..."

My point is, again, that everyone has the right to do what they want regarding bringing children on holiday, but for that one, big, expensive holiday across the globe, I can't seen taking the little bundle of joy along. But it's up to the individuals: bring along your pet monkey or a deskful of work along on holiday if that makes the trip more enjoyable for you.

[Boo]

But it's up to the individuals

wow finally

[Mark Wolfe]

But it's up to the individuals

wow finally

I think if you back up and read my previous posts, I said this before, in other words.

[Farma]

I haven’t read the whole thread so forgive me if it’s been mentioned before.

There are a large number of expat families working in other countries away from Thailand who are fortunate enough to have multiple holidays each year subsidized by their employers.

A lot of these expat families don’t maintain homes in their native countries so they enjoy the sights of the world while they can. As such they go on holidays as a family. A large proportion of the expat families I know have spent at least 1 holiday with kids on Samui and contributed to the local economy.

My kids traveled the world from 6 weeks of age and now they’ve grown and settled back in their native country they have fond memories of their early traveling days. Yes they saw a lot of the world.

As young teenagers they felt proud to stand up in front of their class at school and describe, first hand, places they’ve visited. Most of their teachers had never visited the places they were teaching the class about.

Samui isn’t just for singles, dinks and lager louts. Families with their kids enjoy holidays there too.

[Boo]

so the thread has been answered by posters who actually do have children & enjoy travelling with them. IMO unless you have children of your own & have expereinced what it is ike to take them to samui or anywhere else for that matter then it is pure guess work, speculation & what you perceive to be the situation.

Seeing parents stressed out is only a snap shot of that particular time of that particualr day, unless you are tailing these people 24/7 for the whole of their holiday then I am hard pressed why it can be assumed that they are stressed for the whole trip or that it has ruined or made their holiday any less enjoyable!.

A child gets ill whilst on holiday & the parents have to take care of a poorly kid? Well thats just bad luck really, kids get sick & the bugs/viruses don't discrimiate where or when they infect. It's part & parcel fo having children, the risk that they get hurt, ill etc is one that comes with parenthood as it taking care of them at the expense of what you might want to do. People with actual children understand this & are happy to make this sacrifce regardless of where they are.

I would say to the op, try not to think too much about what other people do or why they do it or is life in paradise that boring that you get stressed about these things. Hobbies are always good for those with too much time on their hands