The Property Market

[zorro1]

A quick poll. If you posted here are you a renter, buyer, a looker or owner? be honest now

[pkrv]

A quick poll. If you posted here are you a renter, buyer, a looker or owner? be honest now

Very proud owner - PKRV

[Bisto]

Buyer looking for information on where to buy.

[zorro1]

owner

Edited February 22, 2008 by zorro1

[shochu]

owner - but not completed yet.

Bisto - check out prakard - a thai web site that lists many of the projects but unfortunatley it is in thai - but is a good start and will lead to other sites with more descriptions.

Cheers to those that can gain something as I too am always trying to gather info myself - so thanks!

[backflip]

"It is an excellent way to evaluate the occupancy..."

We were talking about "ownership", which is different. During my two-year stint in Shanghai, my condo lights were never on, and you probably thought my unit was "unsold". Regarless, I can't think of a more qualified person to tuk tuk around after the bars are closed, counting lights. You're performing a very valuable service, and I urge you to keep it up.

[JeffCA]

owner - but not completed yet.

Bisto - check out prakard - a thai web site that lists many of the projects but unfortunatley it is in thai - but is a good start and will lead to other sites with more descriptions.

Cheers to those that can gain something as I too am always trying to gather info myself - so thanks!

Prakard is a great site, and if you start an English thread as I have done under my development, people are more than willing to post answers to your questions in their best English.

[zorro1]

pkrv,

I agree with what you are saying. Shanghai was probably not a good example - but the point was that Bangkok is getting ahead of itself in pricing probably due to too many people trying to cash in. And when you factor in that Shanghai has much more to offer all around and will soon be the city in this part of the world then I think it is fairly-priced, with Bangkok over-priced.

Shocu

You want to buy here right? even though you think Shanghai would be THE city, you still want to buy here and so do a HUGE portion of the rest of the world so it doesnt make sense to label it over priced. Shanghai isnt and never will be a BAngkok. New york now thats OVER PRICED but not for new yorkers they think its the beez neez. Get my drift

[BigSnake]

No, I haven't but have two friends that are married to Thai ladies and have homes in the area, their advice is to beware of Real Estate Salemen, consult a lawyer or a very trusted friend who is in the know about real estate(ie, land office people, sale taxes, name transfer etc)

[shochu]

zorro,

You obvioulsy have a vested interest and it is people like you who can never offer good advice. I am not about to go through your posts to see what this interest is as i have better things to do. I answered your query with hesitation as your earlier post was a bit abrasive and now you have answered my perceptions about you. It is a shame when there are people with vested interests who ruin it for people trying to disseminate useful info. regarding a common interest.

My shanghai example is that it is an amazing city with the most potential and yes - I have thought about buying there as I really like the city and plan to spend more time there. I still like bangkok - however - I am realistic and grounded about things - and I know when things are over priced.

Example - an average 35s.m. condo in the central area now goes for about 3 mil. Do you have any idea how small that is and do you really think that is a good deal? Do you have any idea when you do the math how this does not equate when considering a healthy market must be accessible to the locals? No matter how much I like Bangkok - I am grounded in my assessments.

And no - a huge portion of the world does not want to buy in Bangkok - now - that is delirious speak. Lets get real, Bangkok is an interesting city and i like it here, but I also like many other cities and frequently travel to many other cities in the region and am also looking to buy in these cities that I go to often.

Going forward, I will probably be only looking at aquiring older places with a thai friend who happens to be an architect and fully agrees with my assessments.

backflip,

There is nothing wrong with that comment. I routinely travel around neighborhoods to see how things are not only condo wise, but economic wise. It gives one an understanding of the nature of a place. Considering a place can only be 49% owned by foreigners - if say a place were 80% - 90% empty - what does that tell us?

If you want other sources - Why not go to a thai site and see how many rentals there are, and how many people are trying to flip condos they have only paid deposits on!

[MJo]

In Thanon Pun , indian temple soi between Silom and Sathorn a recently completed building is having a very hard time selling , dropped from thb 80k to 70k psm and i am sure more room to move down on price , they are desperate even offering ( subsidised ) 10% rental return , could be worth a look , at least it is finished and ready to move in, by the way on same street a new release called the treasure is also for sale ,but just a hole in the ground whilst they are waitng for punters , Very nice pictures but when you see location ,nothing like it , eg shows wide green street with a nice building and nothing around it , in fact small street and property stuck in between 2 buildings

Thanks for the tip Ray, will check it out.

Do you have the name of the project / developer ?

[cclub75]

"It is an excellent way to evaluate the occupancy..."

We were talking about "ownership", which is different. During my two-year stint in Shanghai, my condo lights were never on, and you probably thought my unit was "unsold". Regarless, I can't think of a more qualified person to tuk tuk around after the bars are closed, counting lights. You're performing a very valuable service, and I urge you to keep it up.

No. Don't add insult to injury.

We were talking about occupancy. I did. And PadThaiGuy too.

So, you should go back to Shangai (another perfectly "healthy market" by the way, even more healthier than Bangkok).

Nobody denies that most of the units are sold. The point is : a large number remain empty.

You can't deny it.

Now you're free to believe that all the owners are on long term vacations in Shangai... Or you can try to be rationnal.

[zorro1]

zorro,

You obvioulsy have a vested interest and it is people like you who can never offer good advice. I am not about to go through your posts to see what this interest is as i have better things to do. I answered your query with hesitation as your earlier post was a bit abrasive and now you have answered my perceptions about you. It is a shame when there are people with vested interests who ruin it for people trying to disseminate useful info. regarding a common interest.

My shanghai example is that it is an amazing city with the most potential and yes - I have thought about buying there as I really like the city and plan to spend more time there. I still like bangkok - however - I am realistic and grounded about things - and I know when things are over priced.

Example - an average 35s.m. condo in the central area now goes for about 3 mil. Do you have any idea how small that is and do you really think that is a good deal? Do you have any idea when you do the math how this does not equate when considering a healthy market must be accessible to the locals? No matter how much I like Bangkok - I am grounded in my assessments.

And no - a huge portion of the world does not want to buy in Bangkok - now - that is delirious speak. Lets get real, Bangkok is an interesting city and i like it here, but I also like many other cities and frequently travel to many other cities in the region and am also looking to buy in these cities that I go to often.

Going forward, I will probably be only looking at aquiring older places with a thai friend who happens to be an architect and fully agrees with my assessments.

backflip,

There is nothing wrong with that comment. I routinely travel around neighborhoods to see how things are not only condo wise, but economic wise. It gives one an understanding of the nature of a place. Considering a place can only be 49% owned by foreigners - if say a place were 80% - 90% empty - what does that tell us?

If you want other sources - Why not go to a thai site and see how many rentals there are, and how many people are trying to flip condos they have only paid deposits on!

My interest is no more vested than yours as we are both here expressing a point of view, right or wrong

[mikethevigoman]

i must ask the question then, how long do homes and condos stay on the market in US or europe?

I sold a 2 bedroomed apartment in 10 days , must have been too cheap !

[shochu]

Zorro,

There is a big difference - I try to be objective as I am not a used car sales man, and I do not make a living with real estate in Bangkok - so I can tell it like it is - whereas you are trying to defend a position where you can gain by skewing the facts. If I have said anything that is wrong - please correct me!

Edited February 23, 2008 by shochu

[thaibkk]

maybe if Thailand want to do something about slow buying or investing rate... get rid of the rascist and protectionist matter that Farang cannot buy land... Thais or any other nationality can buy land/house/car/dog/... whatever in my home country as long as they have the money, they do not even need a WORK PERMIT or Residence or whatever, they can just buy an a tourist visa...

[backflip]

"many projects that have been finished for quite some time are mostly empty - meaning the lights never come on at night. "

But the opposite is NOT true: "no lights means that the apartment is empty". This is a favorite mantra of padthaiguy, and it's clearly wrong. I live in a fully-occupied 283 units condo. At 8:30PM, I walked around the building (not just standing in the soi that padthaiguy would be tuk tukking down), counting units with the lights on. There were 40 units with the lights on and, according to you and padthaiguy, the building is 85% unoccupied. That's simply not true.

[backflip]

"Shanghai was probably not a good example - but...Shanghai has much more to offer all around and will soon be the city in this part of the world then I think it is fairly-priced, with Bangkok over-priced."

Have you ever lived in Shanghai? Have you even visited Shanghai? There are several situations with China which you do not seem to understand. China is "moving to a market economy", which is different from "having a markey economy". There are 1.4 billion people there, with 20 million living in Shanghai...and virtually everyone not living in Shanghai resents the amount of money that the government has invested there. The government refuses to keep its hands off either the real estate or stock markets, creating artificial ebbs and flows. A friend bought a condo for 8,000RMB/sqm and, within a year, it was worth almost 40,000. The government implemented new taxes, and the condo dropped to 20,000. Regardless, Shanghai is very expensive. You probably didn't realize that no one owns property in China, everyone gets a 70 year lease....but the government has the option of calling in that lease, and allowing the property to be razed and redeveloped. When I first moved to SH foreigners were allowed to buy a condo but, with the incredible runup of prices, the law was changed. In summary, it is simpler for you to buy land in Thailand, than it is for you to buy a condo in SH. If you have not done so already, I'd suggest developing a "plan B".

[bingobongo]

just for you backflip.........i can just imagine you saying outloud "wow, am i smart" at the Euphoria stage (as shown in chart), and I am sure you have utterered "temporary set back - I'm a long-term investor" at the Anxiety stage but alas denial is now here...........

Edited February 26, 2008 by bingobongo

[PadThaiGuy]

For your information.

A unit in my building recently sold for 85,000/meter.

Nice older building in a very good location.

[Irene]

For your information.

A unit in my building recently sold for 85,000/meter.

Nice older building in a very good location.

Good to know. It would even be nicer to know of the area and the location or, better, the name of the condo.

[PadThaiGuy]

For your information.

A unit in my building recently sold for 85,000/meter.

Nice older building in a very good location.

Good to know. It would even be nicer to know of the area and the location or, better, the name of the condo.

Lower Sukhumvit close to BTS.

[Irene]

For your information.

A unit in my building recently sold for 85,000/meter.

Nice older building in a very good location.

Good to know. It would even be nicer to know of the area and the location or, better, the name of the condo.

Lower Sukhumvit close to BTS.

Thank you! That will help us to pinpoint the ruling market value more realistically since it is so dfficult to get the right information on this area.

[mikethevigoman]

"Look at these projects at nite and count how many lights you see."

Ah, now that's a great judge as to how the BKK real estate market is doing.

It is an excellent way to evaluate the occupancy.

When I see a 30 story condo at nite with 10 lites on, makes me think there arn't many people living there. Duh.

I'm not going to believe an owner, agent, manager, article in the newspaper.

If I'm interested in a place, I go there, hang out, talk with neighbors....and take a nite view of the place and count the lites.

I'm thinking there has been allot of speculation in the last 5 years and there are not enough buyers at current prices.

In one of the new recently finished high rise buildings near me at jomtien last night there were 2 lights on, now either everyone was out or its almost empty, what do you think ?

[mikethevigoman]

A quick poll. If you posted here are you a renter, buyer, a looker or owner? be honest now

ex owner, now renting, much better , made nothing on the house in 5 years, rents have stayed the same, ( pattaya )

[teej]

A quick poll. If you posted here are you a renter, buyer, a looker or owner? be honest now

ex owner, now renting, much better , made nothing on the house in 5 years, rents have stayed the same, ( pattaya )

If you made nothing on the house, at least you didn't have rent to pay for 5 years!

[LivinLOS]

A quick poll. If you posted here are you a renter, buyer, a looker or owner? be honest now

ex owner, now renting, much better , made nothing on the house in 5 years, rents have stayed the same, ( pattaya )

If you made nothing on the house, at least you didn't have rent to pay for 5 years!

No and he lost any return on the price of the property he had to put the money into.

I rent for around 3% property value.. And my investment returns have been 30 - 40% per annum last couple of years..

[quiksilva]

I gave my wife the house that we live in, which is fine by me.

[Samuian]

The other areas such as Phuket, Samui, I personally do not know much about - but at the same time from what I hear, I would not be buying there as I undertand it to be a speculative market as most holiday places tend to be.

It doesn't need a crystal ball....overpriced and highly speculative!

Does anyone needs a temporary house sitter on samui? preferable with large garden and pool, please!

[VegasVic]

It's smoke and mirrors game around here. Getting the truth is a futile effort. You are going to believe what you read in the papers?.. opinons from real estate investors?

What are the occupancy rates?

Look at these projects at nite and count how many lights you see.

My opinion is the market is in trouble.

I see several projects that have come to a halt recently.

How long can speculators hold onto these units?

Many bought off plan with the thought of renting or selling to the farang.

The weak dollar, anti farang attitude, immigration laws, the coup, inflation have put the hurt on those speculators.

PadThaiGuy, you seem to be spot on in your assessment of the situation, desite the fact that most of the others here seem to be in denial! The EU central banks are clearly behind the curve, and yet still leave interest rates unchanged, it is just a matter of time before Europe is itself in the throws of a real estate crisis and rates start tumbling. When this happens,the Euro(which is a artificialyovervaluedcurrency)will begin to tumble as well. Should the baht remain strong vs. the dollar and get much stronger vs. the pound and the Euro, where will the buyers or the tourists for that matter come from? Russia and Dubai? Perhaps? More than likely though the formerly hyped "recession proof" areas of Phuket and Koh Samui will be hit very hard, and Pattaya and areas in BKK will see record levels of real estate inventory. The thai mindset of holding on to a proerty for years until they get their price will be put to a stern test, and I have a feeling that a year or two from now there may be some substantial price reductions both in the condo and home markets.