People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[sriracha john]

Is the above from Giles banned book?

No, but I highly recommend that you read it!

Please cite the source of your post then.

Read his book, btw.

[A_Traveller]

To assist Asia Sentinel

Regards

PS Not sure how long it {and the identical cross-post} may remain though.

Edited May 26, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Siripon]

The issue here is nothing to do with royalty, the PAD realise the hurried attempts to alter the constitution are purely to enable Thaksin to escape possible prosecution.

Changes to the constitution should be made by people from all sections of society, not from solely MPs, and a very sorry bunch at that, but of course that will take time, too long to be able to stop impending court cases...got to save Frank, got to save Frank...please never, ever let him be investigated, I know he says he's completely innocent, but you know, just in case....

[jumnien]

The issue here is nothing to do with royalty, the PAD realise the hurried attempts to alter the constitution are purely to enable Thaksin to escape possible prosecution.

Changes to the constitution should be made by people from all sections of society, not from solely MPs, and a very sorry bunch at that, but of course that will take time, too long to be able to stop impending court cases...got to save Frank, got to save Frank...please never, ever let him be investigated, I know he says he's completely innocent, but you know, just in case....

I completely agree that this would be the only logical conclusion if one were to read only PAD approved literature. Unfortunately, for the People Against Democracy (PAD) there is a fairly well-developed world press that prints other viewpoints.

[Siripon]

Samak himself said when he first became PM the constitutional changes could wait until the the end of his 4 year tenure.

Why rush?

Why not involve the general public and set up a charter writing assembly?

Why not concentrate on the economic ills facing the country? Not one working committee has been set up yet in this parliament- and all because the Ministers are afraid the chairmen of the committees, many of whom are Democrats, will monitor them.

What are the achievements of the Interior minister so far? Increasing the number of (legal) cockfighting days to two!

[hammered]

Samak himself said when he first became PM the constitutional changes could wait until the the end of his 4 year tenure.

Why rush?

Why not involve the general public and set up a charter writing assembly?

Why not concentrate on the economic ills facing the country? Not one working committee has been set up yet in this parliament- and all because the Ministers are afraid the chairmen of the committees, many of whom are Democrats, will monitor them.

What are the achievements of the Interior minister so far? Increasing the number of (legal) cockfighting days to two!

I think the plan to rush mass constitutional changes through so that all charges fall against the 111 etc was initiated by Newin Chidchob, who then even though risking party unity forced the positioniong of his own father in the important post of speaker - impoortant for a lot of procedural stuff to do with constitutional change.

Indeed why not let the people have a role in constitutional ammendment? After all a referendum, which is highly likely to be challenged in court due to the lack of organic laws, that costs 2 billion baht and is aimed at giving a blank check to politcains is hardly likely to result in anything better than the recent constitution that was also backed by a referendum. As you suggest a process of allowing full public participation in the drafting would be not only democratically better but also may actually start to bring about reconcillaition if one excepts the extremisits on both sides who currently hold sway. Of course such a process will take time and will put country before personal wants. Sadly this seems to be a minor consideration for the egomaniacal ones.

Indeed it is disgusting that parliament has not even bothered to set up the committees that would enable the work of governing to happen. This is especially true considering the economic problems facing the world. It would seem these are much more of a threrat to the average Thai person and indeed the security of the country than the current constituion or the travails of a bunch of currently banned political characters. Then again creating a crisis is the kind of thing governments do all the time to hide their own failings in what they are meant to be doing. However, governments dont usually try to further crises that could well result in violence, well unless one wants to include some lunatic latin american and african governments of relatively recent history. The opposition in its various forms also needs to crank down the rhetoric but those with the power - the government - need to make the first step after all when a government is elected it is elected to carry out the will of all the people not just those that voted for it in the last snapshot of public opinion, or even worse just carry out the bidding of the interest groups that fund and support it. What is happening now does not auger well for a peaceful Thailand, and it really seems that there are no people in the politcal realm that can or maybe will rise above the mess and resolve problems.

[h90]

Samak himself said when he first became PM the constitutional changes could wait until the the end of his 4 year tenure.

Why rush?

Why not involve the general public and set up a charter writing assembly?

Why not concentrate on the economic ills facing the country? Not one working committee has been set up yet in this parliament- and all because the Ministers are afraid the chairmen of the committees, many of whom are Democrats, will monitor them.

What are the achievements of the Interior minister so far? Increasing the number of (legal) cockfighting days to two!

I think the plan to rush mass constitutional changes through so that all charges fall against the 111 etc was initiated by Newin Chidchob, who then even though risking party unity forced the positioniong of his own father in the important post of speaker - impoortant for a lot of procedural stuff to do with constitutional change.

Indeed why not let the people have a role in constitutional ammendment? After all a referendum, which is highly likely to be challenged in court due to the lack of organic laws, that costs 2 billion baht and is aimed at giving a blank check to politcains is hardly likely to result in anything better than the recent constitution that was also backed by a referendum. As you suggest a process of allowing full public participation in the drafting would be not only democratically better but also may actually start to bring about reconcillaition if one excepts the extremisits on both sides who currently hold sway. Of course such a process will take time and will put country before personal wants. Sadly this seems to be a minor consideration for the egomaniacal ones.

Indeed it is disgusting that parliament has not even bothered to set up the committees that would enable the work of governing to happen. This is especially true considering the economic problems facing the world. It would seem these are much more of a threrat to the average Thai person and indeed the security of the country than the current constituion or the travails of a bunch of currently banned political characters. Then again creating a crisis is the kind of thing governments do all the time to hide their own failings in what they are meant to be doing. However, governments dont usually try to further crises that could well result in violence, well unless one wants to include some lunatic latin american and african governments of relatively recent history. The opposition in its various forms also needs to crank down the rhetoric but those with the power - the government - need to make the first step after all when a government is elected it is elected to carry out the will of all the people not just those that voted for it in the last snapshot of public opinion, or even worse just carry out the bidding of the interest groups that fund and support it. What is happening now does not auger well for a peaceful Thailand, and it really seems that there are no people in the politcal realm that can or maybe will rise above the mess and resolve problems.

A referendum for a change in the constitution with the purpose to prevent punishments for vote buying (which happened without doubt), by the government which got in power with exactly this vote buying is in almost all other countries unthinkable.

Changing a law after breaking that law is very strange.

[hammered]

Samak himself said when he first became PM the constitutional changes could wait until the the end of his 4 year tenure.

Why rush?

Why not involve the general public and set up a charter writing assembly?

Why not concentrate on the economic ills facing the country? Not one working committee has been set up yet in this parliament- and all because the Ministers are afraid the chairmen of the committees, many of whom are Democrats, will monitor them.

What are the achievements of the Interior minister so far? Increasing the number of (legal) cockfighting days to two!

I think the plan to rush mass constitutional changes through so that all charges fall against the 111 etc was initiated by Newin Chidchob, who then even though risking party unity forced the positioniong of his own father in the important post of speaker - impoortant for a lot of procedural stuff to do with constitutional change.

Indeed why not let the people have a role in constitutional ammendment? After all a referendum, which is highly likely to be challenged in court due to the lack of organic laws, that costs 2 billion baht and is aimed at giving a blank check to politcains is hardly likely to result in anything better than the recent constitution that was also backed by a referendum. As you suggest a process of allowing full public participation in the drafting would be not only democratically better but also may actually start to bring about reconcillaition if one excepts the extremisits on both sides who currently hold sway. Of course such a process will take time and will put country before personal wants. Sadly this seems to be a minor consideration for the egomaniacal ones.

Indeed it is disgusting that parliament has not even bothered to set up the committees that would enable the work of governing to happen. This is especially true considering the economic problems facing the world. It would seem these are much more of a threrat to the average Thai person and indeed the security of the country than the current constituion or the travails of a bunch of currently banned political characters. Then again creating a crisis is the kind of thing governments do all the time to hide their own failings in what they are meant to be doing. However, governments dont usually try to further crises that could well result in violence, well unless one wants to include some lunatic latin american and african governments of relatively recent history. The opposition in its various forms also needs to crank down the rhetoric but those with the power - the government - need to make the first step after all when a government is elected it is elected to carry out the will of all the people not just those that voted for it in the last snapshot of public opinion, or even worse just carry out the bidding of the interest groups that fund and support it. What is happening now does not auger well for a peaceful Thailand, and it really seems that there are no people in the politcal realm that can or maybe will rise above the mess and resolve problems.

A referendum for a change in the constitution with the purpose to prevent punishments for vote buying (which happened without doubt), by the government which got in power with exactly this vote buying is in almost all other countries unthinkable.

Changing a law after breaking that law is very strange.

Agree. Changing a constituton for the politcal expedience of a small group at a particular time in history is to miss the bigger picture of what a constitution is about. Then again, how many constittuions has Thailand had and how many more? A rushed set of constittuional changes will almost certainly guarantee the need to change them again

[Plus]

Just to remind of 2006 time frame - there were SIX months between last PAD demonstration and the coup. In between there were elections, Thaksin's resignation, Thaksin's return and declaration of war on Prem, elections were cancelled, election commissioners removed, and so on.

Chamlong is too old to be hungry for power. He retired nearly a decade ago, his fight with Thaksin is about Thaksin, not about Chamlong.

Current PAD demonstrations are not against Thaksin or against the government. They are very issue specific - leave the constitution alone and get on with your job.

A small thing to ask of your government.

Current Parlament not only hasn't set up a single working commitee, it hasn't passed any laws, too, and the opposition party is the only one that has put any proposals, six coalition parties only draw their salaries and talk about changing constution.

[cmsally]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort. It was all about inciting nationalism, hatred etc etc.

At one stage Sonthi did mention the amendments to the constitution. Hurray I thought, at last this might give me an idea of what this is all about.

He didn't explain a thing, only went on to shout about that the constitution wasn't really that important, it was the motivation behind changing it. Crikey man, now are you protesting about people's supposed motivations.

And then of course the degeneration into protectionism, nationalism and all that usual verbal run off; finalised with a chant from him to the crowd - "are we going to let this happen?" "no" etc.

I really don't think there is just 2 sides to this problem and the complexities of the issue cannot be dealt with by having these mass rallies and protests, I like many others are totally fed up with it.

As a footnote to this I saw on the news that a probe landed on Mars recently. I can't help wishing that a few people involved in Thai politics had been put into it with a one way ticket.

[thaigene2]

They weren't looking specifically for a coup although - because of the ruthless and tenacious nature of Thaksin - he became glaringly obvious that he wasn't goin' to step down peacefully. WHY SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO STEP DOWN?

In fact - the military stepped in when it became apparent that he was attempting to engineer a state of emergency - hence the timely military intervention. STATE OF EMERGENCY - AS OPPOSED TO A COUP??

Bloodshed was avoided - which is exactly what was planned at Sanam Luang on the day of the coup.

If the Democrats won an election and the farmers came on mass to BKK and tried to kick them out - would the military stage a coup on their behalf? I doubt it. UNDER YOU RULES ABOVE THEY SHOULD THOUGH RIGHT?

The military's first duty is the protection of the monarchy which was obviously under grave threat from Thaksin. IT WAS? OF ALL COUNTRIES, HOW COULD THAT BE POSSIBLE IN THAILAND?

In short - Thaksin was riding rough-shot over everyone in his attempt to establish a dictatorial republic - and this is why the military felt compelled to intervene. GOOD GRIEF.

[Plus]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

[Meerkat]

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

Which is odd really, considering that the last Constitutional change ex post facto legitimised treason.

[bulmercke]

The issue here is nothing to do with royalty, the PAD realise the hurried attempts to alter the constitution are purely to enable Thaksin to escape possible prosecution.

Changes to the constitution should be made by people from all sections of society, not from solely MPs, and a very sorry bunch at that, but of course that will take time, too long to be able to stop impending court cases...got to save Frank, got to save Frank...please never, ever let him be investigated, I know he says he's completely innocent, but you know, just in case....

Exactly - and this is why they're protesting. The whole point of the pre-coup protests was to bring Thaksin to justice.

In short - nothing has changed since then. Hence the call for renewed protests.

Good luck to them.

[jumnien]

The issue here is nothing to do with royalty, the PAD realise the hurried attempts to alter the constitution are purely to enable Thaksin to escape possible prosecution.

Changes to the constitution should be made by people from all sections of society, not from solely MPs, and a very sorry bunch at that, but of course that will take time, too long to be able to stop impending court cases...got to save Frank, got to save Frank...please never, ever let him be investigated, I know he says he's completely innocent, but you know, just in case....

Exactly - and this is why they're protesting. The whole point of the pre-coup protests was to bring Thaksin to justice.

In short - nothing has changed since then. Hence the call for renewed protests.

Good luck to them.

That's absurd. Then why didn't the PAD protest against the military junta for sitting on their asses for 19 months? The PAD is pro-right-wing military junta, that's why. There is a political pay-off for them.

[bulmercke]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

Yes.....?

The Samak government's attempting to amend the constitution to benefit the interests of one person - and one person only - and we all know - too well - who that is.

They've (the PAD) have got every right to publicly protest this gross violation of an elected government's duty to follow due process......which obviously in the case of Thaksin they're attempting to avoid at all costs.

[Plus]

Meerkat, "Ex post facto" - what does it mean?

At this point in time Constitiution is the last thing on most people's minds and coalition complains about it are difficult to understand - they want more freedom, power and less responsibility but all they do is sit on their asses and draw large salaries.

[cmsally]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

The PAD are demanding the resignation of Samak and the impeachment of those supporting the amendment of the constitution.

If they really want to protest on this issue, they should stick to the subject and away from inflammatory speeches on nationalism and the like. I don't see anything constructive in their stance whatsoever.

If they really want to support democracy they should put their egos aside and consider a path of mediation and constructive participation.

They should also remember that the last constitution was written under the power of a military govt. which did not come to power through democratic means.

Until Thai politics gets rid of its "winners and losers " culture things will never improve.

The PAD are no better than the rest.

When it comes to disruption of the capital city and endangering the lives of the populace, they are considerably worse.

[cmsally]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

The PAD are demanding the resignation of Samak and the impeachment of those supporting the amendment of the constitution.

If they really want to protest on this issue, they should stick to the subject and away from inflammatory speeches on nationalism and the like. I don't see anything constructive in their stance whatsoever.

If they really want to support democracy they should put their egos aside and consider a path of mediation and constructive participation.

They should also remember that the last constitution was written under the power of a military govt. which did not come to power through democratic means.

Until Thai politics gets rid of its "winners and losers " culture things will never improve.

The PAD are no better than the rest.

When it comes to disruption of the capital city and endangering the lives of the populace, they are considerably worse.

[bulmercke]

The issue here is nothing to do with royalty, the PAD realise the hurried attempts to alter the constitution are purely to enable Thaksin to escape possible prosecution.

Changes to the constitution should be made by people from all sections of society, not from solely MPs, and a very sorry bunch at that, but of course that will take time, too long to be able to stop impending court cases...got to save Frank, got to save Frank...please never, ever let him be investigated, I know he says he's completely innocent, but you know, just in case....

Exactly - and this is why they're protesting. The whole point of the pre-coup protests was to bring Thaksin to justice.

In short - nothing has changed since then. Hence the call for renewed protests.

Good luck to them.

That's absurd. Then why didn't the PAD protest against the military junta for sitting on their asses for 19 months? The PAD is pro-right-wing military junta, that's why. There is a political pay-off for them.

Do you know why?

Firstly - because of the army's timely intervention - which prevented inevitable bloodshed at Sanam Luang - which was planned by pro-Thaksin forces and about which the military had intelligence. (Thaksin was planning to exploit violence at this event to give him a justified reason reason to declare a state of national emergency from New York)

Secondly - one of the mandates of the interim - post coup government - was to rigorously investigate and prosecute Thaksin on corruption charges and other abuses of power. They were very public about this - but as we all saw - nothing really happened.

Thirdly - the interim government promised a general election.

Fourthly - I agree - somewhat - about your political positioning of the PAD - however there's no secret about this - and further it's common knowledge that Thaksin was intending to side-line the momarchy in this country to the advantage of his own personal agrandisment.

[jumnien]

The issue here is nothing to do with royalty, the PAD realise the hurried attempts to alter the constitution are purely to enable Thaksin to escape possible prosecution.

Changes to the constitution should be made by people from all sections of society, not from solely MPs, and a very sorry bunch at that, but of course that will take time, too long to be able to stop impending court cases...got to save Frank, got to save Frank...please never, ever let him be investigated, I know he says he's completely innocent, but you know, just in case....

Exactly - and this is why they're protesting. The whole point of the pre-coup protests was to bring Thaksin to justice.

In short - nothing has changed since then. Hence the call for renewed protests.

Good luck to them.

That's absurd. Then why didn't the PAD protest against the military junta for sitting on their asses for 19 months? The PAD is pro-right-wing military junta, that's why. There is a political pay-off for them.

Do you know why?

Firstly - because of the army's timely intervention - which prevented inevitable bloodshed at Sanam Luang - which was planned by pro-Thaksin forces and about which the military had intelligence. (Thaksin was planning to exploit violence at this event to give him a justified reason reason to declare a state of national emergency from New York)

Secondly - one of the mandates of the interim - post coup government - was to rigorously investigate and prosecute Thaksin on corruption charges and other abuses of power. They were very public about this - but as we all saw - nothing really happened.

Thirdly - the interim government promised a general election.

Fourthly - I agree - somewhat - about your political positioning of the PAD - however there's no secret about this - and further it's common knowledge that Thaksin was intending to side-line the momarchy in this country to the advantage of his own personal agrandisment.

Where we agree, we agree. Where we disagree, we disagree. But always with the utmost of respect. Good night!

[Plus]

Actually you are right, they did demand Samak's resignation.

Drop the amendments and PAD will disappear, or at least set up Constitution Drafting Assembly that includes people from all sectors of society (like the junta did.) Instead the new draft that is going to be presented next month is written by god knows who, for the benefit of "you know who".

Samak wants a referendum, his party will probably tell him to forget about it - these guys can't mediate between themselves, and they clearly don't give a rat's ass about PAD or the rest of the country's opinion. Thai civil society has offered great many ideas on how to deal with the rising crisis, PPP won't listen.

If you want to see mediation and constructive participation - the ball is in PPP's court, not PAD.

[sriracha john]

The aggressive Thaksinistas... repeats their violence against PAD

A man in a security guard's cap grabs and sprays liquid into the face of a PAD demonstrator in a minor clash between PAD and its rival the Public Group for the Protection of Democracy, which supports the government.

Bangkok Post

[bulmercke]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

The PAD are demanding the resignation of Samak and the impeachment of those supporting the amendment of the constitution.

If they really want to protest on this issue, they should stick to the subject and away from inflammatory speeches on nationalism and the like. I don't see anything constructive in their stance whatsoever.

If they really want to support democracy they should put their egos aside and consider a path of mediation and constructive participation.

They should also remember that the last constitution was written under the power of a military govt. which did not come to power through democratic means.

Until Thai politics gets rid of its "winners and losers " culture things will never improve.

The PAD are no better than the rest.

When it comes to disruption of the capital city and endangering the lives of the populace, they are considerably worse.

You need to separate the grain from the chaff.

All the PAD were asking for last time round was the prosecution of Thaksin and his removal from public office.

And now - despite the coup - it's blatantly clear he's still pulling the strings - with an aim to having all outstanding corruption charges against him dropped.

Re-election as prime-minister - by whatever means - is his numer two major ambition now.

This is why the PAD are protesting now.

[h90]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

The PAD are demanding the resignation of Samak and the impeachment of those supporting the amendment of the constitution.

If they really want to protest on this issue, they should stick to the subject and away from inflammatory speeches on nationalism and the like. I don't see anything constructive in their stance whatsoever.

If they really want to support democracy they should put their egos aside and consider a path of mediation and constructive participation.

They should also remember that the last constitution was written under the power of a military govt. which did not come to power through democratic means.

Until Thai politics gets rid of its "winners and losers " culture things will never improve.

The PAD are no better than the rest.

When it comes to disruption of the capital city and endangering the lives of the populace, they are considerably worse.

You should not forget that they (PPP) don't want the amendment of the constitution because of any nice human right issue. They only want it because they won the election in a fraudulent way and want to cut out the punishment for that.

No matter who wrote the constitution they ONLY want to cut out the punishment for themself, not any other improvement for the country.

[nomoretalksin]

Actually you are right, they did demand Samak's resignation.

Drop the amendments and PAD will disappear, or at least set up Constitution Drafting Assembly that includes people from all sectors of society (like the junta did.) Instead the new draft that is going to be presented next month is written by god knows who, for the benefit of "you know who".

Samak wants a referendum, his party will probably tell him to forget about it - these guys can't mediate between themselves, and they clearly don't give a rat's ass about PAD or the rest of the country's opinion. Thai civil society has offered great many ideas on how to deal with the rising crisis, PPP won't listen.

If you want to see mediation and constructive participation - the ball is in PPP's court, not PAD.

Plus Society

the little so important details, which most people unfortuntely don't know. The problem is also if you ask the people for a referendum, with a already given amendment, most will never understand what has been actually changed or is different. They country people will again, then just vote for their personality, without knowing the details.

So the PAD (besides others) are doing currently a so badly needed useful "information service" to their people, by explaining the details to them.

PPP just blame the junta for amending the constitution, but don't exactly explain to the people, what they actually were amending, which was basically try use more "check & balances" for all politicians. With "vote buying control" and tougher punishment for wrong-doers. These details I never hear from any anti-coup posters here and/or PPP politicians.

The PPP what to turn the clock back, and be free to do as they like again, so to speak. Vote-buying, abuse of power with no consequences etc.

Who will explain to the (country) people, if PAD will not do? The current Thai Goverment for sure not, as they always hoped for votes, from the majority on the country-side, with mostly only Pro-Goverment news on local TV ...sorry I'm repeating myself....(Democrats still get no air time! Minister Jakrpob Penkair just told recently to Abhisit, he couldn't find any air-time for him?? ). Did you notice how quickly he found air-time for him today, nearly the whole day? I see his speach regarding his own allegations!

..... not fair PPP & Khun Thaksin ...not really fair ! Why are you so afraid of letting the Democrats on air, and again....repeating myself...why don't you let the courts finish their investigations, if you didn't do anything wrong (main part of the amendment will be to stop all allegations checks against various previous TRT=PPP members). Does that sound like democracy to you?

If you understand Thai, watch the LIVE DEMONSTRATION DAY 2 (5'000-10'000 people?) now:

http://www.astv-tv.com

(click Live and the NEWS1? Logo)

Edited May 26, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[bulmercke]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

The PAD are demanding the resignation of Samak and the impeachment of those supporting the amendment of the constitution.

If they really want to protest on this issue, they should stick to the subject and away from inflammatory speeches on nationalism and the like. I don't see anything constructive in their stance whatsoever.

If they really want to support democracy they should put their egos aside and consider a path of mediation and constructive participation.

They should also remember that the last constitution was written under the power of a military govt. which did not come to power through democratic means.

Until Thai politics gets rid of its "winners and losers " culture things will never improve.

The PAD are no better than the rest.

When it comes to disruption of the capital city and endangering the lives of the populace, they are considerably worse.

You should not forget that they (PPP) don't want the amendment of the constitution because of any nice human right issue. They only want it because they won the election in a fraudulent way and want to cut out the punishment for that.

No matter who wrote the constitution they ONLY want to cut out the punishment for themself, not any other improvement for the country.

h90 - not sure where you're comin' from about this.

But what I do know is that the Samak government wants to urgently amend the constitution to benefit it's primary benefactor - Thaksin. It's that simple!

[bulmercke]

]LATEST - THE NATION - PAD vows to continue protesting until it gets "victory"

The five leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy vowed Monday night to continue the demonstrations against the Thaksin regime until the PAD gets a victory.

The five leaders went up on the stage at the Makkhawan Bridge rally ground at 9 pm and told the demonstrators that the rally would go on everyday.

Pipop Thongchai, one of the five leaders, told the crowd that fighting against charter amendments was not the only goal of the protests.

The Nation

Edited May 26, 2008 by bulmercke

[h90]

Actually you are right, they did demand Samak's resignation.

Drop the amendments and PAD will disappear, or at least set up Constitution Drafting Assembly that includes people from all sectors of society (like the junta did.) Instead the new draft that is going to be presented next month is written by god knows who, for the benefit of "you know who".

Samak wants a referendum, his party will probably tell him to forget about it - these guys can't mediate between themselves, and they clearly don't give a rat's ass about PAD or the rest of the country's opinion. Thai civil society has offered great many ideas on how to deal with the rising crisis, PPP won't listen.

If you want to see mediation and constructive participation - the ball is in PPP's court, not PAD.

Plus Society

the little so important details, which most people unfortuntely don't know. The problem is also if you ask the people for a referendum, with a already given amendment, most will never understand what has been actually changed or is different. They country people will again, then just vote for their personality, without knowing the details.

So the PAD (besides others) are doing currently a so badly needed useful "information service" to their people, by explaining the details to them.

PPP just blame the junta for amending the constitution, but don't exactly explain to the people, what they actually were amending, which was basically try use more "check & balances" for all politicians. With "vote buying control" and tougher punishment for wrong-doers. These details I never hear from any anti-coup posters here and/or PPP politicians.

The PPP what to turn the clock back, and be free to do as they like again, so to speak. Vote-buying, abuse of power with no consequences etc.

Who will explain to the (country) people, if PAD will not do? The current Thai Goverment for sure not, as they always hoped for votes, from the majority on the country-side, with mostly only Pro-Goverment news on local TV ...sorry I'm repeating myself....(Democrats still get no air time! Minister Jakrpob Penkair just told recently to Abhisit, he couldn't find any air-time for him?? ). Did you notice how quickly he found air-time for him today, nearly the whole day? I see his speach regarding his own allegations!

..... not fair PPP & Khun Thaksin ...not really fair ! Why are you so afraid of letting the Democrats on air, and again....repeating myself...why don't you let the courts finish their investigations, if you didn't do anything wrong (main part of the amendment will be to stop all allegations checks against various previous TRT=PPP members). Does that sound like democracy to you?

If you understand Thai, watch the LIVE DEMONSTRATION DAY 2 (5'000-10'000 people?) now:

http://www.astv-tv.com

(click Live and the NEWS1? Logo)

Not to forget the pickup with speaker will go every soi "vote for amendment and get 200 Baht".

[h90]

If the issues at hand are specific it would be nice to hear this in the speeches given by the PAD.

But listening to a fair bit last night there was nothing of the sort.

Somehow journalists who reported for Bangkok Post and the Nation heard it.

It's impossible to talk on one single issue for hours, they are bound to cover lots of other things as well.

In the end, all their demands were about leaving the constitution alone. They didn't ask for a coup. They didn't ask Samak to resign. They didn't ask for parlament to resign, they didn't ask Democrats to take over.

If not for Constiitution amendment, they wouldn't have any reasons to rally at all, and they didn't, for more than two years.

The PAD are demanding the resignation of Samak and the impeachment of those supporting the amendment of the constitution.

If they really want to protest on this issue, they should stick to the subject and away from inflammatory speeches on nationalism and the like. I don't see anything constructive in their stance whatsoever.

If they really want to support democracy they should put their egos aside and consider a path of mediation and constructive participation.

They should also remember that the last constitution was written under the power of a military govt. which did not come to power through democratic means.

Until Thai politics gets rid of its "winners and losers " culture things will never improve.

The PAD are no better than the rest.

When it comes to disruption of the capital city and endangering the lives of the populace, they are considerably worse.

You should not forget that they (PPP) don't want the amendment of the constitution because of any nice human right issue. They only want it because they won the election in a fraudulent way and want to cut out the punishment for that.

No matter who wrote the constitution they ONLY want to cut out the punishment for themself, not any other improvement for the country.

h90 - not sure where you're comin' from about this.

But what I do know is that the Samak government wants to urgently amend the constitution to benefit it's primary benefactor - Thaksin. It's that simple!

Maybe my english is too bad again.....

What I wanted to tell is no other reason to change the constitution than to protect themself. Not even for show they found anything to change in the constitution which would benefit someone else then themself. Paying money for votes is fraud. And the punishment should be cut out of the constitution.