People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[nomoretalksin]

By the way the constitution amendments with clear advise of changes (each Thai received the new constitution in the house, prior voting!) have been already voted for just in 2006, and approved by the majority of the Thai people!

[CL0R0X]

the 2bn baht come in handy, plenty to pay off for all the yes vote, under tax payer expense.

[Plus]

There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing.

Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

So you tacitly concede that they are doing the right thing now and so you decided to throw another tantrum on last year's issue. Let me guess, if I answer that, you'll jump on to something else and fire off another round of abuse in random direction without ever acknowledging screwing up your previous attempts.

Tested Sunrise07 tactic - when taken to task, change the subject and display lots of enthusiasm to sound like you are genuinly interested. Never answer any questions and never argue your points, just keep "attacking".

As for 2007 referendum - what were Democrats supposed to do about it? They said that voting for the new constitution was better than voting against, for all parties concerned. They had their reservations and thought they could correct constitution shortcomings later on. They are still commited to amending it, just not now and not the way PPP goes about it.

[jumnien]

There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing.

Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

So you tacitly concede that they are doing the right thing now and so you decided to throw another tantrum on last year's issue. Let me guess, if I answer that, you'll jump on to something else and fire off another round of abuse in random direction without ever acknowledging screwing up your previous attempts.

Tested Sunrise07 tactic - when taken to task, change the subject and display lots of enthusiasm to sound like you are genuinly interested. Never answer any questions and never argue your points, just keep "attacking".

As for 2007 referendum - what were Democrats supposed to do about it? They said that voting for the new constitution was better than voting against, for all parties concerned. They had their reservations and thought they could correct constitution shortcomings later on. They are still commited to amending it, just not now and not the way PPP goes about it.

You still refuse to answer the question and use evasive tactics to detract scrutiny of your childish arguments. Let me put it to you one more time, "Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

[h90]

There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing.

Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

So you tacitly concede that they are doing the right thing now and so you decided to throw another tantrum on last year's issue. Let me guess, if I answer that, you'll jump on to something else and fire off another round of abuse in random direction without ever acknowledging screwing up your previous attempts.

Tested Sunrise07 tactic - when taken to task, change the subject and display lots of enthusiasm to sound like you are genuinly interested. Never answer any questions and never argue your points, just keep "attacking".

As for 2007 referendum - what were Democrats supposed to do about it? They said that voting for the new constitution was better than voting against, for all parties concerned. They had their reservations and thought they could correct constitution shortcomings later on. They are still commited to amending it, just not now and not the way PPP goes about it.

You still refuse to answer the question and use evasive tactics to detract scrutiny of your childish arguments. Let me put it to you one more time, "Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

sunrise and your change topic tactic: you wanted to tell me where Chamlong was corrupt...don't forget about that, you changed the topic to Sondi....

So like Plus tells......

[jumnien]

There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing.

Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

So you tacitly concede that they are doing the right thing now and so you decided to throw another tantrum on last year's issue. Let me guess, if I answer that, you'll jump on to something else and fire off another round of abuse in random direction without ever acknowledging screwing up your previous attempts.

Tested Sunrise07 tactic - when taken to task, change the subject and display lots of enthusiasm to sound like you are genuinly interested. Never answer any questions and never argue your points, just keep "attacking".

As for 2007 referendum - what were Democrats supposed to do about it? They said that voting for the new constitution was better than voting against, for all parties concerned. They had their reservations and thought they could correct constitution shortcomings later on. They are still commited to amending it, just not now and not the way PPP goes about it.

You still refuse to answer the question and use evasive tactics to detract scrutiny of your childish arguments. Let me put it to you one more time, "Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

sunrise and your change topic tactic: you wanted to tell me where Chamlong was corrupt...don't forget about that, you changed the topic to Sondi....

So like Plus tells......

Living in Thailand, it's probably better that you don't get into long detailed posts about specific military figures who have taken liberties, shall we say? Comprendo?

[thaigene2]

I'm not changing the argument at all Plus - for another view (very similar view to mine), and to make the point it's not just a couple of people here on Thaivisa - is a letter to the Editor at the Bangkok Post published today. I think it sums it up quite well. This person also takes view that the Constitutional issue is a red herring:

Gutless PAD (Bangkok Post, Postbag, 28.05.2008)

Great. Now we have the PAD demanding that PM Samak and the cabinet resign. With the side order for members of Parliament seeking a charter amendment to be impeached. I would like to ask these gutless wonders at the PAD: Where were you when the 1997 Constitution, which we paid for with our blood and tears, was ripped apart at gunpoint?

I am not a fan of Mr Samak. I personally find many of the positions he has held over the years to be in the gravest opposition to what I believe. I would like to point out certain things to the PAD which hopefully they will take note of:

1. The 2007 charter was accepted by the majority of the people. Look at the numbers that voted for it. And that was when the military was in full control of the nation.

2. The PPP won the election fair and square, despite the military's best efforts to keep them out.

3. The PPP had made it known in their election manifesto, in their speeches to the public, that they will, if given a mandate, aim for a charter amendment.

By what right is the PAD trying to bring our country to the edge of another ugly confrontation? My advice to the PAD is: Control your ego!

SANTI RATTISETHI

[nomoretalksin]

Firstly the 1997 constitution was widely hailed as being the most progressive ever in terms of democratic reform.

Then why no protests when it was abrogated by the military?

I believe the 2006 constitution includes powers for the National Security Council, which would I guess be synonymous with the military.

Putting yourselves in the shoes of someone who truly stands for democracy, the most logical position would be to support the reinstitution of the 1997 version and the condemnation of the 2006 version.

Surely the 2006 constitution was a step backwards for Thailand regarding the passage towards democracy.

1997 Constitution was was indeed hailed as the most progressive when it was first adopted, ten years ago but by 2006 it failed hopelessly on several important points - not only checks and balances on runaway PM's power, but on people participation, too.

Still, it was scrapped to justify the coup, not becuase it wasn't working or it was too democratic. The new, 2007 (not 2006 as you said), constitution gives MORE power to the people and makes politicians MORE accountable that 1997 version could ever have.

It has some contentious points, too, but nothing really urgent. PPP wants to let MPs work for the government and not for legislative branch as they were elected to - MPs want their hands on the money.

Undeniably the main consitutional problem for PPP is losing court battles for electoral fraud. When you can't argue the case - argue the law. If they can't amend constitution in time, they'll be found guilty.

Yes, I don't necessarily disagree with your point. But MY main point is NONE of the parties are interested in public participation. So I really wish the coup-apologists and upper-class-democrat whingers (not saying you're one) would p-l-e-a-s-e stop pretending that the Democrats are carrying the heavy heart of the 90% Thai poor people of their sleeves. That's just as laughable and disinegenuous as what they're trying to do to Jakrapob right now frankly (he may deserve a hiding for other things, being greasy for example - but not that FCCT presentation).

There is no question about what's going on here in my mind. It's the Establishment versus the Thakisnites all over again. The Constiution is a red herring - since any other Government could come in and change it again! The PAD/Democrats/Establishment just don't want to wait for the next election, can't face the fact they lost the last one, and so are trying to force another coup. Anyone really believe otherwise?? Like CM Sally said - where were the protests when a hand-picked military junta body drafted the last Consitution? Hmm - no protests then..strange...

Look either you understand that the last coup was an honest "good coup" againt "corrupt politicians" or you don't. If you place every coup in the same pot, and don't check the details, you will never understand. The constiution was not amended for selfserving purpose, it was amended for the good of the people, and they implemented check&balances for corrupt politicians. Why don't you go google up what they actually changed in the 2006 amedment, rather than just critizing it, without knowing the details? And then also, see what the PPP now want to amend? These are the little details which makes one know who is on the peoples side and who not.

Also don't call Khun Abhisit just the establishment. He's currently most probably the best & most intelligent politician and choice Thailands has. If you want Thailand to go forward, you have to choose what we have. If you shut them all down, as some of you do, we have anarchy and chaos. Support for the most honest & best solution we have, and Thailand can go forwards. Abhisit is a true politician, since he was young and studied politics in England. He's not a business-man (selfish) and I believe he is the true "current" best solution for Thailand. You have any better solution in mind?

The other thing is PPP despite all efforts by the last goverment to stop election fraud, did it again! We all have proove & knowledge of it.

So how come they should not be punished, as it was clear and it was the current law not to do so. But they still didn't want to stop, as they knew without cheating they most propably couldn't win. And don't forget, they just one by a short margin!

I'm 100% sure, if the PPP didn't do any vote-buying at all, we would have the Dems and Khun Abhisit in the sit today.

If you cheat, you should be punished, pasta.

The PPP const. amendment now want to cancel now these punishments. Totally different situation. Guys get a bit more clever before you just blame people by their names (uh....junta etc.) and race (thaigene2) and actions, without checking the facts.

There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing.

Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

Just read this thread & others again slowley and understand the reason for the coup and check out the polls after the coup and also read in various other sources. Go and speak to the uni-professors, with the educated Thai people. You will start to understand soon.

I'm not changing the argument at all Plus - for another view (very similar view to mine), and to make the point it's not just a couple of people here on Thaivisa - is a letter to the Editor at the Bangkok Post published today. I think it sums it up quite well. This person also takes view that the Constitutional issue is a red herring:

Gutless PAD (Bangkok Post, Postbag, 28.05.2008)

Great. Now we have the PAD demanding that PM Samak and the cabinet resign. With the side order for members of Parliament seeking a charter amendment to be impeached. I would like to ask these gutless wonders at the PAD: Where were you when the 1997 Constitution, which we paid for with our blood and tears, was ripped apart at gunpoint?

I am not a fan of Mr Samak. I personally find many of the positions he has held over the years to be in the gravest opposition to what I believe. I would like to point out certain things to the PAD which hopefully they will take note of:

1. The 2007 charter was accepted by the majority of the people. Look at the numbers that voted for it. And that was when the military was in full control of the nation.

2. The PPP won the election fair and square, despite the military's best efforts to keep them out.

3. The PPP had made it known in their election manifesto, in their speeches to the public, that they will, if given a mandate, aim for a charter amendment.

By what right is the PAD trying to bring our country to the edge of another ugly confrontation? My advice to the PAD is: Control your ego!

SANTI RATTISETHI

1. yes exactly suprisingly despite in general people don't understand things about constitution etc (the details) they voted for it. If the others also would have understood (as in Europe were people are more educated to vote on such issues), the purpose of the constitution change would have been accepted by 90% plus. I'm sure.

2. fair? sorry that's not true also. They used their same framwork with their paid head of villages up-country as usual...

(I never heard of any democrats vote buying in the last vote - Did you?). If you want to know about Thaksin and PPP and vote-buying tactics I can find you a great You-tube documentery showing this, as their payments for votes already startet to be established in 2001 + 2002 and continued to be a big networks of receivers and vote-buying pressure in the villages (if you don't vote for those we can't fullfill your local village needs) up to today. etc. It's now very difficult to crack this network.

3. to bring back Thaksin and the TRT, those who already cheated and were accused of misusing their jobs to enrich themselves.

Boy some of you mates really not well informed, just riding on the Western-Democratic book. Check out reality and the details please!

And please remain polite and cool, after all we want a discussion and not the same unfriendly political chaos we have in the parlament (this goes especially to Thaigen2)

Edited May 28, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[h90]

There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing.

Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

So you tacitly concede that they are doing the right thing now and so you decided to throw another tantrum on last year's issue. Let me guess, if I answer that, you'll jump on to something else and fire off another round of abuse in random direction without ever acknowledging screwing up your previous attempts.

Tested Sunrise07 tactic - when taken to task, change the subject and display lots of enthusiasm to sound like you are genuinly interested. Never answer any questions and never argue your points, just keep "attacking".

As for 2007 referendum - what were Democrats supposed to do about it? They said that voting for the new constitution was better than voting against, for all parties concerned. They had their reservations and thought they could correct constitution shortcomings later on. They are still commited to amending it, just not now and not the way PPP goes about it.

You still refuse to answer the question and use evasive tactics to detract scrutiny of your childish arguments. Let me put it to you one more time, "Where were they when a military dictatorship was pushing through a referendum on exactly the same issue. Collective amnesia??

sunrise and your change topic tactic: you wanted to tell me where Chamlong was corrupt...don't forget about that, you changed the topic to Sondi....

So like Plus tells......

Living in Thailand, it's probably better that you don't get into long detailed posts about specific military figures who have taken liberties, shall we say? Comprendo?

thats nonsense! Chamlong holds no military power and all the forum for Thais are openly discussing in friendly and in rude manner about different active military figures and there were never any problems, neither under the junta nor now. You can freely discuss everything here beside the royal family. So it is another rhetoric trick to mask that you don't have any argument.

[nomoretalksin]

It's true however that some military men, misused the good intentions of their colleagues after the coup. As I heard especially around and in the airport there were some stories. That's another details, even within the coup-people there were good and bad people working and/or stealing. That's another true fact which I guess is understandable a point for the anti-coup people.

But Khun Sonthi and Surayud, I only can support. These are honest & good men, working for the country. Especially Khun Surayud

[h90]

nomoretalksin:

You must know that sunrise and thaigene don't intend to find some arguments, when you check all there postings you'll find out that they are most probably paid for posting here. They never answer any question, they never come with facts, they always come with exactly the same bs. If they would be foreigner, they would learn some facts, read about them somewhere. If they would be Thai people they would know some facts. But most probably they are Thaksins english "opinion-maker" department. Simillar to the lobbiests Thaksin hired in USA just they seem to be more a cheap local service.

[hammered]

NONE of the parties are interested in public participation

That's not true. There are calls for setting up a Constitution Drafting Assembly to represent all sectors of society, not just government MPs. Democrats are going to submit their own proposal on how to proceed with amendments regardless of what PPP is doing. Now there's a chance that their proposal will get more votes in Parlament than PPP's one.

I really hope that the government backs down and gets on with the job it has beed elected to do, if we need more street protests by PAD to achieve that, so be it.

They have been told numerous times not to push it, now it seems they got the message.

Samak apparently got it, Snoh got it, maybe even Thaksin got it. Let's see how far Newin and Co are going to go. Hopefully not very far.

Good point.The worry is over the factional PPP politcs. Newin and his power base have a lot invested in the charter to unshackle the 111 plan. If it loses backing in the PPP it shows a loss of power for his faction. He will fight hard but with coaltion allies already wary to say the least and with blocks of central and even a group of Isaan PPP MPs opposed to Newin his faction could be due a fall. We also shouldnt foregt that the speakers post intially went to Yongyuths Nrthern faction and is now in the hands of Newins faction. Newins group were not exactly outspoken in trying to provide cover for Yongyuth during his travails. Newin who is identified with the hard wing of PPP is close to Thaksin, but so is Yongyuth. Yongyuth gained some kudos for stepping down as speaker while under investigation, and it served to (maybe falsely) identify him as more of as moderate within the PPP. Along with those central plains and Isaan PPP MPs critical of Newin Yongyuth may see the chance to increase the power of his faction within the PPP if Newin sufers a fall. Internal factional politics may in the final analysis be what undoes the charge for constitutional reform. Right now it only needs 9 more names to be removed as sponsors for it to no longer ahve enough backing to be tabled at the next session.

[Plus]

I'm not changing the argument at all Plus - for another view (very similar view to mine), and to make the point it's not just a couple of people here on Thaivisa - is a letter to the Editor at the Bangkok Post published today. I think it sums it up quite well. This person also takes view that the Constitutional issue is a red herring:

If constitution ought to be amended and in the name of democracy, none the less, it should be done right, with wide public participation, with public hearings, with people from all walks of life being represented on the drafting commitee, not by behind closed doors by unnamed persons.

So far it IS a red herring - to draw public's attention away from their real purpose - PAD, the Democrats, and about everybody else among Thai civil society accuse PPP of hijacking the process and rewriting the highest law in the land to save their asses.

If they were as sincere and democratic as they claim, they'd allow public input.

Now they are pushing for referendum, 2 billion on a red herring question - "shoud the constitution be amended?". It's a non-issuse, the issue is HOW it should be amended and WHO will do it.

If the whole government and executive branch becomes paralised while politicians are forced to campaign pro or against this nonsense question, it will be new height of absurdity for this country.

2 bil is 320 baht per each Thai, including children. What a waste!

Edited May 28, 2008 by Plus

[cmsally]

Abhisit is a true politician, since he was young and studied politics in England.

Personally I would say Korn and Surin come across far better than Abhisit.

I am not so sure Abhisit has what it takes, it takes more than studying in England.

Listening to his speeches there seems to be a lot lacking.

[nomoretalksin]

Abhisit is a true politician, since he was young and studied politics in England.

Personally I would say Korn and Surin come across far better than Abhisit.

I am not so sure Abhisit has what it takes, it takes more than studying in England.

Listening to his speeches there seems to be a lot lacking.

Korn (his economy & general know-how is amazing) and Surin are great, but they are not meant to be PM's? I don't know.

Imagine those three together with Surayud. That would be a dream team.

However as you say Abhisit lacks to make very great speaches. He has that "soap opera" thing missing, which makes Thaksin such a star on the country-side. It's a pitty mostly big mouth (contents not so important) are mostly choosen recently, especially up-country (again: nothing against farmers, they are unbelievable mostly great people up there!)

Edited May 28, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[h90]

Abhisit is a true politician, since he was young and studied politics in England.

Personally I would say Korn and Surin come across far better than Abhisit.

I am not so sure Abhisit has what it takes, it takes more than studying in England.

Listening to his speeches there seems to be a lot lacking.

Korn (his economy & general know-how is amazing) and Surin are great, but they are not meant to be PM's? I don't know.

Imagine those three together with Surayud. That would be a dream team.

However as you say Abhisit lacks to make very great speaches. He has that "soap opera" thing missing, which makes Thaksin such a star on the country-side. It's a pitty mostly big mouth (contents not so important) are mostly choosen recently, especially up-country (again: nothing against farmers, they are unbelievable mostly great people up there!)

well they would choose Abhisit if he runs arround in Isaan and gives everyone 500 Baht. Really not important what he or Thaksin speaks as long as some money comes.

[nomoretalksin]

The King is speaking to the channel 11 now! (before TPBS)

Wonder what he has to say!? Any updates please advise, as I'm sure it's a about the current mess, with some golden advises as usual. His really a men of the people, not like Thaksin pretends to be! just my humble opinion

Edited May 28, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[Losangels]

Personally I would say Korn and Surin come across far better than Abhisit.

I am not so sure Abhisit has what it takes, it takes more than studying in England.

Listening to his speeches there seems to be a lot lacking.

I agree with you, for some reason to me Abhisit doesn't seem to have leadership qualities.

He may be intelligent but they are things lacking to be a leader of Thailand.

Yeah his speeches needs brushing up, perhaps needs lesson from Obama

[nomoretalksin]

regarding LA above

WE WANT CHANGE! WE WANT CHANGE!

YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN!

;-)

[thaigene2]

nomoretalksin:

You must know that sunrise and thaigene don't intend to find some arguments, when you check all there postings you'll find out that they are most probably paid for posting here. They never answer any question, they never come with facts, they always come with exactly the same bs. If they would be foreigner, they would learn some facts, read about them somewhere. If they would be Thai people they would know some facts. But most probably they are Thaksins english "opinion-maker" department. Simillar to the lobbiests Thaksin hired in USA just they seem to be more a cheap local service.

Nope - no one is paying me anything. Now you guys on the other hand..You do indeed make me wonder..

As for "nomoretalksin" and your comment: "nothing against farmers, they are unbelievable mostly great people up there!" that's exactly the typical condascending rubbish spouted by your people, and I'd go further to suggest that it is your people who don't understand Thailand. You think the country is yours. You see them as something lesser than you. This is the root of the problem - and it is exactly why some guy like Thakisn can manipulate that for his own ends. Your people need to accept that all Thais have an equal say and an equal share in the country - something that so far the elites and middle urban classes, senior sivil servant dynasty familes simply aren't prepared to do. Blame yourselves for this mess and let the rest of us know when you are ready for real democracy and sharing the country with the other 90% ok?

[h90]

nomoretalksin:

You must know that sunrise and thaigene don't intend to find some arguments, when you check all there postings you'll find out that they are most probably paid for posting here. They never answer any question, they never come with facts, they always come with exactly the same bs. If they would be foreigner, they would learn some facts, read about them somewhere. If they would be Thai people they would know some facts. But most probably they are Thaksins english "opinion-maker" department. Simillar to the lobbiests Thaksin hired in USA just they seem to be more a cheap local service.

Nope - no one is paying me anything. Now you guys on the other hand..You do indeed make me wonder..

As for "nomoretalksin" and your comment: "nothing against farmers, they are unbelievable mostly great people up there!" that's exactly the typical condascending rubbish spouted by your people, and I'd go further to suggest that it is your people who don't understand Thailand. You think the country is yours. You see them as something lesser than you. This is the root of the problem - and it is exactly why some guy like Thakisn can manipulate that for his own ends. Your people need to accept that all Thais have an equal say and an equal share in the country - something that so far the elites and middle urban classes, senior sivil servant dynasty familes simply aren't prepared to do. Blame yourselves for this mess and let the rest of us know when you are ready for real democracy and sharing the country with the other 90% ok?

loool herewith Thaigene2 announce that the support for Thaksin is now up at 90 % of the population.

[cmsally]

One supposition on here is that it is only the PPP and TRT before them who buy votes.

I would refute that, and I think some of those farmers "up there", would back me up on this one.

As a footnote to this, I must admit I am having a hard time getting that TV series out of my brain. It is the one where Paris Hilton and her friend take a trip to a small mid Western town ("redneck") and stay on a farm. There could be some parallels with above.

[hammered]

nomoretalksin:

You must know that sunrise and thaigene don't intend to find some arguments, when you check all there postings you'll find out that they are most probably paid for posting here. They never answer any question, they never come with facts, they always come with exactly the same bs. If they would be foreigner, they would learn some facts, read about them somewhere. If they would be Thai people they would know some facts. But most probably they are Thaksins english "opinion-maker" department. Simillar to the lobbiests Thaksin hired in USA just they seem to be more a cheap local service.

Nope - no one is paying me anything. Now you guys on the other hand..You do indeed make me wonder..

As for "nomoretalksin" and your comment: "nothing against farmers, they are unbelievable mostly great people up there!" that's exactly the typical condascending rubbish spouted by your people, and I'd go further to suggest that it is your people who don't understand Thailand. You think the country is yours. You see them as something lesser than you. This is the root of the problem - and it is exactly why some guy like Thakisn can manipulate that for his own ends. Your people need to accept that all Thais have an equal say and an equal share in the country - something that so far the elites and middle urban classes, senior sivil servant dynasty familes simply aren't prepared to do. Blame yourselves for this mess and let the rest of us know when you are ready for real democracy and sharing the country with the other 90% ok?

It is a little more complicated than 90% versus 10%. In fact in the last election of those who voted no party got much more than 40% of the vote and no party won an overall majority meaning there was no overwhelming mandate for any party. In fact as many if not more people didnt vote than voted for any single party iirc, but I digress. The PPP being the biggest party did receive a mandate under the election system to try and from a government first and did so succesfully but as with any coalition government the electorate left them in a position where compromise was necessary. Sadly we see little attempt at anything like compromise or even any attempt to actually govern the country for that matter.

Personally, not being Thai I wouldnt like to think the country belongs to anyone but "them" meaning all the Thai people and certainly not to me a non-Thai.

Thailand is probably a way from "real democracy" which involves more than just elections. Things such as a free press, checks and balances, an independent judiciary, a safe environment in which to make informed decisions about voting are all part of democracy as is the right to demonstrate and probably a decision to write a once and for all accepted by all with full public participation constitution would help. But then again Democracy is and probably should be an evolving system. sadly where Thailand finds itself today is not a place in which a free and fair democracy seems to be able to spring from rather than a manipulated form by one side or the other that ensures that sides domination.

Peace

[Plus]

You see them as something lesser than you. This is the root of the problem - and it is exactly why some guy like Thakisn can manipulate that for his own ends.

Errr, you mean Thaksin sees them lesser than himself AND can manipulate them? That's actually worse than having allegedly wrong attitude but not daring to act on it, don't you think?

[younghusband]

Abhisit is a true politician, since he was young and studied politics in England.

Personally I would say Korn and Surin come across far better than Abhisit.

I am not so sure Abhisit has what it takes, it takes more than studying in England.

Listening to his speeches there seems to be a lot lacking.

Korn (his economy & general know-how is amazing) and Surin are great, but they are not meant to be PM's? I don't know.

Imagine those three together with Surayud. That would be a dream team.

However as you say Abhisit lacks to make very great speaches. He has that "soap opera" thing missing, which makes Thaksin such a star on the country-side. It's a pitty mostly big mouth (contents not so important) are mostly choosen recently, especially up-country (again: nothing against farmers, they are unbelievable mostly great people up there!)

I agree Korn is impressive but why on earth should he want to be associated with Surayud, a decent old codger certainly (subject to one or two caveats) but at the end of the day he was the head of a notoriously incompetent puppet government illegally installed - in blatant defiance of most Thai peoples wishes (whatever the junta apologists on this forum say) - by a gang of jumped up gangsters in uniform.

[h90]

One supposition on here is that it is only the PPP and TRT before them who buy votes.

I would refute that, and I think some of those farmers "up there", would back me up on this one.

As a footnote to this, I must admit I am having a hard time getting that TV series out of my brain. It is the one where Paris Hilton and her friend take a trip to a small mid Western town ("redneck") and stay on a farm. There could be some parallels with above.

yes there is a long list of parties before them who bought votes, and often the same person are doing it in different parties.

That was exactly the reason of the 2007 constitution to reduce that. As the PPP, but not only the PPP got caught on that, they now want to change the law so there is less punishment for that fraud.

[Plus]

notoriously incompetent puppet government

It made some big progress in several areas that the current government is trying to undo. 2007 was an average year for most people, 2008 looks a lot harder.

[younghusband]

notoriously incompetent puppet government

It made some big progress in several areas that the current government is trying to undo. 2007 was an average year for most people, 2008 looks a lot harder.

I hold no brief for the current government but unlike its predecessor it has an electoral mandate.I'm dubious about your "big progress" proposition but in any case even if true it's like apologists for fascism saying Mussolini made the trains run on time, ie not strictly speaking the point.Anyway our hopes now lie with our ex- English public schoolboys Abhisit, Korn etc though my hero worship of the former is being tested at the moment given his comments on the FCCT fiasco in August 2007.Future historians might consider looking back that in May 2008 Thailand had rather more important issues to deal with than some twerp's indiscrete comments (though the transcipt I have seen is pretty unexceptional) at a private meeting several months earlier.

[hammered]

With Chart Thai seemingly now calling for Jakrapobs removal and an abandonment of the charter revision, it seems things are coming to a head at least in this round of events.

Story from the Nation: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30074188

[thaigene2]

With Chart Thai seemingly now calling for Jakrapobs removal and an abandonment of the charter revision, it seems things are coming to a head at least in this round of events.

Story from the Nation: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30074188

Yes perhaps. But to me the way this gets resolved is either:

1. the Charter amendments go through, there is a refernendum as has been promised, and it succeeds or falls - fine.

2. the coalition partners start to turn on PPP/Samak and the Minority Government falls, and elections are called by HM the King - fine.

Or - and this is what I think is going to happen..we'll see though:

3. The PAD types find another thing, then another thing, then another thing to keep up their disruptive demos to try to force another coup because of 'social divisions' - which of course are being caused by a small minority with megahorns who block the traffic. They know they can't win an election - so a coup is the best answer for them to return Thailand to the semi-fuedal status quo where the civil servants and oligarch families run the country for themselves - NOT fine.

And by the way, I didn't say the 90% are Thakisn supporters..but nice try h90 - that's rather similar to the number 3 tactic, non?

Edited May 28, 2008 by thaigene2