People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[Old Man River]

At the risk of repeating myself, the problem with the 'observers' point is that international observers consisted of 37 people working in pairs (?) {Guess 1 had a mirror} from ANFREL {Asian Network for Free Elections}, whilst domestic monitoring was dramatically curtailed owing to a, shall we say curious, argument between the EC and P-Net.

I'll be realistic here and say that the result probably reflected the will of the people, {in my view the Democrat Party, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by a phenomenally badly managed campaign} but it is specious to suggest that the process was somehow certified by an independent, and implied foreign, presence. The report itself is not good reading, and given the number of observers and the inevitably limited programme undertaken by them, is highly suggestive of widespread 'questionable activity'.

Regards

LINK to ANFREL report in PDF format

I don't think anyone here said that the process was certified by an international agency, but rather that no international agency certified that the PPP's victory was not credible (although one poster seems to think that is the case). From what I have been told, the biggest problem with this election is that the EC allowed the votes to be counted at the poll site, allowing local authorities to know how many votes were made contra to what they paid for. Knowing that local authorities would try and find out who voted against them while accepting their money was pressure enough to make sure that all voted according to what they were paid to do.

A Traveller can you honestly say that if a free and fair election was held tomorrow that the people of the North and Northeast would not, once again, vote the PPP's way? I don't think there is a question about this and my comment is more a comment about those that continue to vote PPP/TRT than anything else.

Sadly, I agree with your comment that the Democrats failed to connect with these people.

[jumnien]

It would seem to me that if there is a problem in Thailand with accurate vote counting and pay-for-voting, the last thing you would want to do is too install the same old military fogies by force or lackeys like the Democrat Party who have been pay-for-voting for over 60 years! I understand folks wanting a new direction from Thaksin, but not backwards too the dark, dark past.

[Pierrot]

I don't know what country you are from ...

Reminds me an old joke from C&H

Miss Wormwood :"In which state do you live ?"

Calvin: " ... denial?"

Obviously you're neighbors

[Plus]

Despite its legitimacy PPP execs are worried that they will pay dearly for Yongyudh's bribery. What will you say then?

Also don't forget that PPP was able to muster a coalition only on certain conditions and it might crumble if a couple of their partners decide that enough is enough.

Failed constitution amendment is a glaring evidence that on certain issues it doesn't any clout, even their own MPs declined to sign on.

[younghusband]

^ You may say it, but as you care to lecture others, saying something, even repeatatively does not make it true. Indeed even ANFREL in its carefully measured diplomatic language commented upon this actuality during the 2007 election process.

Regards

I have never denied PPP was involved with irregularities, simply that at the end of the process most reasonable people believed it had a popular mandate.The ANFREL report, which is rather good -it comments on the efforts of the Junta to pervert the outcome- notes that all major parties were guilty of vote buying.This is all well known territory.

As Plus rightly says PPP has no mandate if one or more partners drop out.Then Samak will have to work something out with the Dems, or heaven help us have another election.I'm agnostic about Yongyudh:never really understood why a party should be dissolved for an individuals crimes (unless it's all an orchestrated wayang kulit type play by the creatures of darkness)

[Pierrot]

Failed constitution amendment is a glaring evidence that on certain issues it doesn't any clout, even their own MPs declined to sign on.

From the last news, it seems that the democrats have agreed to join the government to study a constitution amendment. So the constitution will be amended, and it's a good thing.

But it's very bad news for the PAD. Their irresponsible attitude has made them a liability for almost everybody. We just need to hope they will realize their madness before its too late.

[Old Man River]

Failed constitution amendment is a glaring evidence that on certain issues it doesn't any clout, even their own MPs declined to sign on.

From the last news, it seems that the democrats have agreed to join the government to study a constitution amendment. So the constitution will be amended, and it's a good thing.

It buys time. The Democrats have always said there are parts of the 06 constitution they would like to see amended. However, there are parts the PPP needs to have (i.e. Thaksin needs to have) that they are not in favor of. I doubt this is going to change.

[Pierrot]

Failed constitution amendment is a glaring evidence that on certain issues it doesn't any clout, even their own MPs declined to sign on.

From the last news, it seems that the democrats have agreed to join the government to study a constitution amendment. So the constitution will be amended, and it's a good thing.

It buys time. The Democrats have always said there are parts of the 06 constitution they would like to see amended. However, there are parts the PPP needs to have (i.e. Thaksin needs to have) that they are not in favor of. I doubt this is going to change.

At least they talk. That the way it should be, between elected representatives of the nation, around a table, not between hysterics goons in the street.

[Plus]

I'm agnostic about Yongyudh:never really understood why a party should be dissolved for an individuals crimes

Individual? He is party seniormost executive and undisputed leader of a large PPP faction, responsible for about a hundred candidates in his region. He goes out and bribes kamnans to help his candidates to win both on party list and constituence votes, and there was nothing in it for himself - as a top candidate on the party list he was guaranteed a seat anyway.

PPP will have its day in court but I can't see how they can present Yongyuth as moonlighting on his own. He's not some newbie giving out a hundred baht to get his face remembered (in which case the party would hold no responsibility).

>>>>

Suriyasai was quoted in the Nation as demanding clear delcaration from the government that Constitution amendment and the order use force are off the table. Some PPP members are still pushing for it. Demands to remove Samak's government apparently are not important anymore, which is a good news.

Without PAD Democrats would have never had a chance to participate in Constitution re-write process.

[Khun Jean]

Failed constitution amendment is a glaring evidence that on certain issues it doesn't any clout, even their own MPs declined to sign on.

From the last news, it seems that the democrats have agreed to join the government to study a constitution amendment. So the constitution will be amended, and it's a good thing.

It buys time. The Democrats have always said there are parts of the 06 constitution they would like to see amended. However, there are parts the PPP needs to have (i.e. Thaksin needs to have) that they are not in favor of. I doubt this is going to change.

At least they talk. That the way it should be, between elected representatives of the nation, around a table, not between hysterics goons in the street.

Without the PAD there would be no talk. The constituion would be 'amended' to fulfill the needs of the few. That is crystal clear.

[younghusband]

I'm agnostic about Yongyudh:never really understood why a party should be dissolved for an individuals crimes

Individual? He is party seniormost executive and undisputed leader of a large PPP faction, responsible for about a hundred candidates in his region. He goes out and bribes kamnans to help his candidates to win both on party list and constituence votes, and there was nothing in it for himself - as a top candidate on the party list he was guaranteed a seat anyway.

PPP will have its day in court but I can't see how they can present Yongyuth as moonlighting on his own. He's not some newbie giving out a hundred baht to get his face remembered (in which case the party would hold no responsibility).

I take your point on Yongyudh.It's just that, taking a comparison, in a Western democracy it would be unthinkable for a whole party to be dissolved.A cynic might argue that if the establishment here can't find one reason to exterminate the Thaksin legacy they will find another.It's not as though any of the major parties are free of these practices.

[hammered]

Failed constitution amendment is a glaring evidence that on certain issues it doesn't any clout, even their own MPs declined to sign on.

From the last news, it seems that the democrats have agreed to join the government to study a constitution amendment. So the constitution will be amended, and it's a good thing.

It buys time. The Democrats have always said there are parts of the 06 constitution they would like to see amended. However, there are parts the PPP needs to have (i.e. Thaksin needs to have) that they are not in favor of. I doubt this is going to change.

But it will get us closer to the court dates. There has so far been a race to get certain segments of the constitution ammended before certain cases get to court. It now looks like the cases will get to see their day in court, but things change on a daily basis so we cant be sure. The justice minister's assault on the Chidchob faction seems to show the PPP right now is too divided on the issue to ram a total ammendment through a joint sitting.

Of course realistically, there are opportuntities for deals to be done and Im sure people are currently talking. The pendulum of who has the upper hand seems to swing on an almost daily basis and of course it is far too simple to just talk of PAD and the government. There are many other interested parties involved and while the government side do seem factionally divided (expect an intervention by Mr. T or some close with him to shore things up soon) the PAD does not have the support it used to enjoy even if Mr. Samak has for now buoyed this somewhat. The problem being in a position where no side (and I am talking in more general terms than just PAD versus gov) seems to be able to deliver a final victory is that just because one isnt deliverable doesnt mean anyone will stop trying. The constitution committee is a good idea for now. Lets just hope the will to achieve something positive for the country out of this whole mess is to be found in those who participate in said committee. Failing this maybe another election is needed even if this will further delay any action on clear and very present economic and other policy issues facing the country, and of course the courts could still have an impact on this kind of solution. Difficult.

[nomoretalksin]

Without the PAD there would be no talk. The constituion would be 'amended' to fulfill the needs of the few. That is crystal clear.

Fully agree. In Thailand we can be thankful, to have a strong oppostion (PAD + Democrats), orelse they would be endless corruptions.

I just wonder what the new "combined constitution amendment" (including external parties + Dem's) will bring, if it will go ahead (Samak

already supported it). Sureley also a step which no-one thought was possible just a view weeks ago. Mainly thanks to PAD now.

Even if some of you don't like them, you must admit they achieved quite some positiv things in the last 2 weeks.

[jumnien]

Without the PAD there would be no talk. The constituion would be 'amended' to fulfill the needs of the few. That is crystal clear.

Fully agree. In Thailand we can be thankful, to have a strong oppostion (PAD + Democrats), orelse they would be endless corruptions.

I just wonder what the new "combined constitution amendment" (including external parties + Dem's) will bring, if it will go ahead (Samak

already supported it). Sureley also a step which no-one thought was possible just a view weeks ago. Mainly thanks to PAD now.

Even if some of you don't like them, you must admit they achieved quite some positiv things in the last 2 weeks.

I have to agree with you, I've been shorting the Thai stock market! Otherwise, the PAD sucks!

[hammered]

Without the PAD there would be no talk. The constituion would be 'amended' to fulfill the needs of the few. That is crystal clear.

Fully agree. In Thailand we can be thankful, to have a strong oppostion (PAD + Democrats), orelse they would be endless corruptions.

I just wonder what the new "combined constitution amendment" (including external parties + Dem's) will bring, if it will go ahead (Samak

already supported it). Sureley also a step which no-one thought was possible just a view weeks ago. Mainly thanks to PAD now.

Even if some of you don't like them, you must admit they achieved quite some positiv things in the last 2 weeks.

The Quotemeister Thitinan has been quoted in many foreign media sources as saying that Samak has lost so much that credibility that there is a question of whether he can survive as PM, so it may be irrelevent what he thinks of the deal. Interestingly this analysis seems to have not been touched on by the Thai English Language media.

[h90]

I'm agnostic about Yongyudh:never really understood why a party should be dissolved for an individuals crimes

Individual? He is party seniormost executive and undisputed leader of a large PPP faction, responsible for about a hundred candidates in his region. He goes out and bribes kamnans to help his candidates to win both on party list and constituence votes, and there was nothing in it for himself - as a top candidate on the party list he was guaranteed a seat anyway.

PPP will have its day in court but I can't see how they can present Yongyuth as moonlighting on his own. He's not some newbie giving out a hundred baht to get his face remembered (in which case the party would hold no responsibility).

I take your point on Yongyudh.It's just that, taking a comparison, in a Western democracy it would be unthinkable for a whole party to be dissolved.A cynic might argue that if the establishment here can't find one reason to exterminate the Thaksin legacy they will find another.It's not as though any of the major parties are free of these practices.

At least in Austria, there would be new elections and the responsible person would go to jail. The party would not be dissolved. Beside that such things would be unthinkable, the system of checks is pretty good. I have seen one time when there was doubt of 1 vote might be fraudulent.

within 5 min. 20 policemen came, 3 lawers from government, 3 specialists, the building got sealed and the election can not be completed before that case is resolved.

Normaly there are 2 local government officer official who only support. from every main party 2 people, from small parties 2 observer. At the end all these people need to agree and sign that everything was perfect. Minor things can be just noted. These people also count while the building and inside the rooms are sealed. If someone refuse to signature this area is not getting valid, making the complete election incomplete. If later something fraudulent will be found, all these people would sit in jail.

But I think such a system isn't possible in Thailand, always some looser would find a reason for not signing and it needs a lot of resources. One group can't handle more than 1000 people from 6 am to 10 pm.

[Plus]

..in a Western democracy it would be unthinkable for a whole party to be dissolved...

In a Western Democracy it's unthinkable that Speaker of the House would gather state officials and openly bribe them to force people to vote for his party.

Take TRT dissolution case - it would be unthinkable in the Western Democracy, too. Actually TRT was dissolved not so much for what Thammarak had done, but for what Thaksin and the rest DIDN'T do to punish him.

PPP can argue that Yongyudh was suspended and later resigned. PPP's dissolution is far from certain, and even Yongyuth himself might not be found guilty if his "framed up" defence holds.

Dozens of parties have dissolved in Thailand for one reason or another, btw, usually without any protestations.

[Tony Clifton]

A farang woman was on stage tonight playing guitar and singing, in English, a brilliant and very touching song she wrote about HMK.

It was called Long Live The King and brought tears to my wife's eyes and I am sure many Thais who could understand what she was singing about, lovely voice too.

:D Whoever you are, bravo and may your song become popular with the Thai people. :D

See, when the speeches stop and Bangstock takes the stage with it's many musicians, good things still happen.

[jumnien]

Since so few Thais are participating they are coercing naive farangs to hop on board and draw in the royalist crowd. What will this buffoon Sondhi try to pull next - a dancing bear in a yellow tutu?

[Tony Clifton]

Coercing naive farangs?

A new low.

Geez, lately your posts read like you are copying/pasting results from an Infinite Monkey Theorem experiment.

Still, regardless of your very ignorant comment, it was a beautiful performance with a strong message for all, very touching song even though it was the first time we ever heard it. The artist did take the time to mention her appearance does not mean she is taking sides but wanted to be there for all to hear a song of peace that talks about whom she called one of the greatest human beings ever. You may be surprised , or in your case, tortured, to hear it often very soon.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[jumnien]

Geez, lately your posts read like you are plagiarizing and then copying/pasting results from an Infinite Monkey Theorem experiment.

Looks like you've been hitting the bottle pretty hard lately. Better get some sleep and try again in the afternoon!

[Tony Clifton]

Geez, lately your posts read like you are plagiarizing and then copying/pasting results from an Infinite Monkey Theorem experiment.

Looks like you've been hitting the bottle pretty hard lately. Better get some sleep and try again in the afternoon!

I don't drink.

Quit trolling.

[jumnien]

Geez, lately your posts read like you are plagiarizing and then copying/pasting results from an Infinite Monkey Theorem experiment.

Looks like you've been hitting the bottle pretty hard lately. Better get some sleep and try again in the afternoon!

I don't drink.

Quit trolling.

Pills?

Nah, just kidding Anthony! But, you were the first to start tossing insults this morning!

Edited June 3, 2008 by sunrise07

[Ijustwannateach]

I think it's well-known to those who have connections in the countryside here that people are 'told' by local 'influential types' (village headman, etc.) whom to vote for in exchange for 'considerations,' and though I suppose it's possible to opt out it certainly wouldn't be comfortable to do so in village culture. In that sense, at least, Thailand is far from a democracy no matter who 'wins'- though so are most of the countries which claim to be democracies.

That if I may say so is an increasingly outdated view though still quite widely held but the reality is much more complicated.For a more sophisticated discussion than is likely to be held on this forum, there are some first class alternatives such as Bangkok Pundit.

It's not a 'view,' it's what Thai people say. I guess they must be wrong!

[jumnien]

I think it's well-known to those who have connections in the countryside here that people are 'told' by local 'influential types' (village headman, etc.) whom to vote for in exchange for 'considerations,' and though I suppose it's possible to opt out it certainly wouldn't be comfortable to do so in village culture. In that sense, at least, Thailand is far from a democracy no matter who 'wins'- though so are most of the countries which claim to be democracies.

That if I may say so is an increasingly outdated view though still quite widely held but the reality is much more complicated.For a more sophisticated discussion than is likely to be held on this forum, there are some first class alternatives such as Bangkok Pundit.

It's not a 'view,' it's what Thai people say. I guess they must be wrong!

Are you accusing Thailand of degenerating to a US style pseudo-democracy whereby entire blocks of votes are determined by "influential types" such as union leaders and preachers?

[Siripon]

It was nice to see Parinya, the founder of the White Ribbon group, ask why Thaksin is so afraid of the courts.

[Tony Clifton]

Also, Chalerm said earlier he would debate with Sonthi.

Where, but especially... WHEN?

That would be a first in 8 years from that cowardly but thieving bunch.

Just like the dismantling of the PAD stage, won`t happen, big talkers.

[younghusband]

It was nice to see Parinya, the founder of the White Ribbon group, ask why Thaksin is so afraid of the courts.

I agree this a fair and pertinent question.It's equally fair to debate exactly how disinterested (using that word in its correct meaning) the Thai court system is.It was also very refreshing to see Parinya acknowledge the ambiguity of the current situation -completely different from 1992 where the issues were stark-, acknowledging the PPP's electoral mandate and its strength of argument that the Charter is illegitimate coming as it does from a coup.Although I don't agree with Parinya on some issues it's very welcome to see a sophisticated political intelligence at work recognising nuance and shade.Too much debate nationally and on this forum has been at a simple minded level.It's a breath of fresh air to hear someone that doesn't just think in black and white terms.

[hammered]

Here in the Bangkok Post imho is an excellent article on how to ammend a constitution using a peopel centered approach:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=127983

by Nidhi Eoseewong

[h90]

It was nice to see Parinya, the founder of the White Ribbon group, ask why Thaksin is so afraid of the courts.

I agree this a fair and pertinent question.It's equally fair to debate exactly how disinterested (using that word in its correct meaning) the Thai court system is.It was also very refreshing to see Parinya acknowledge the ambiguity of the current situation -completely different from 1992 where the issues were stark-, acknowledging the PPP's electoral mandate and its strength of argument that the Charter is illegitimate coming as it does from a coup.Although I don't agree with Parinya on some issues it's very welcome to see a sophisticated political intelligence at work recognising nuance and shade.Too much debate nationally and on this forum has been at a simple minded level.It's a breath of fresh air to hear someone that doesn't just think in black and white terms.

Soon he won't have to worry anymore: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30074677