People's Alliance For Democracy To Renew Movement

[Siripon]

So this is a great chance for students to learn about social conflicts firsthand. I propose teachers of Mattayom classes take their students around he PAD site and indulge in dialogue regarding the issues.

[Plus]

Abhisit disapproved on PAD's trying to oust the government yesterday, and Democrats filed their own motion for setting up a commitee on charter amendment to set the course for the parlament. There's an agreement that this commitee will include outsiders and on a quota each party can nominate. In the meantime Chai told his son not to bring villagers to Bangkok, and generally cease and desist.

PPP has its own convention over the weekend and PAD wants to see a clear stance on what they are going to do.

After that PAD will probably relocate if not stop the rallies at all, if they can get Chamlong on board, he is the stubborn one.

Thaigene, in one post you said:

"I never said that Thaksin and his buddies weren't abusing the patronage system for their own ends."

and at the same time

"this is a war between the old family money/patronage elites, and... people who want to get rid of the old way of doing things"

Ten years ago these people bought "think new act new" motto but after six years of living under Thaksin's rule they all realised that his alternative is even worse.

There aren't any "new thinkers" left there, they've all gone.

PPP won elections because they promised Thaksin, which makes it a one man show, or, if you think PPP won the elections for their inherent party and ideology strength, than the result is the ugliest government in the recent history. Nothing about "new" or "democratic" or "progressive". It's the worst scum Thai patronage system has ever produced.

I don't know how you can rant about generals and elites making deals at family tables when the alternative is a government and parlament 50% filled with wives, brothers, sisters, or nephews of shadiest Thai politicians.

[Siripon]

Abhisit disapproved on PAD's trying to oust the government yesterday, and Democrats filed their own motion for setting up a commitee on charter amendment to set the course for the parlament. There's an agreement that this commitee will include outsiders and on a quota each party can nominate. In the meantime Chai told his son not to bring villagers to Bangkok, and generally cease and desist.

PPP has its own convention over the weekend and PAD wants to see a clear stance on what they are going to do.

After that PAD will probably relocate if not stop the rallies at all, if they can get Chamlong on board, he is the stubborn one.

Thaigene, in one post you said:

"I never said that Thaksin and his buddies weren't abusing the patronage system for their own ends."

and at the same time

"this is a war between the old family money/patronage elites, and... people who want to get rid of the old way of doing things"

Ten years ago these people bought "think new act new" motto but after six years of living under Thaksin's rule they all realised that his alternative is even worse.

There aren't any "new thinkers" left there, they've all gone.

PPP won elections because they promised Thaksin, which makes it a one man show, or, if you think PPP won the elections for their inherent party and ideology strength, than the result is the ugliest government in the recent history. Nothing about "new" or "democratic" or "progressive". It's the worst scum Thai patronage system has ever produced.

I don't know how you can rant about generals and elites making deals at family tables when the alternative is a government and parlament 50% filled with wives, brothers, sisters, or nephews of shadiest Thai politicians.

This is the problem for the coup opponents, the quality of the present government. And it wouldn't be much better if the 111 executives were freed from their ban, nearly all the decent folks like Aphisit's cousin, Suranand, have cut their ties with Thaksin.

Hopefuls like YH talk of 'inevitable' change, though the only thing uniting PPP is Thaksin's money; wouldn't it be great however if some PPP MPs could see life beyond Thaksin and started thinking long term strategies for Thailand. Talks with Korn, shadow finance minister of The Democrats could be fruitful.

[younghusband]

So this is a great chance for students to learn about social conflicts firsthand. I propose teachers of Mattayom classes take their students around he PAD site and indulge in dialogue regarding the issues.

According to some there is no social conflict, just one man's struggle for power and the evil cronies who do his bidding.Otherwise everything is tickety boo.

[younghusband]

Abhisit disapproved on PAD's trying to oust the government yesterday, and Democrats filed their own motion for setting up a commitee on charter amendment to set the course for the parlament. There's an agreement that this commitee will include outsiders and on a quota each party can nominate. In the meantime Chai told his son not to bring villagers to Bangkok, and generally cease and desis

It's probably just worth noting that Abhisit rejected the PAD's outrageously arrogant campaign to oust the government, as Plus points out, because the current PPP led administration has a proper electoral mandate.In other words the government must be ousted by peaceful and constructive political campaigning (in which PAD certainly has a legitimate role) and, if apropriate, electoral defeat.Abhisit as I would have expected grasps the point precisely.It's time to call an end to the democratic process being short circuited by treasonable generals and Bangkok mobs.

Edited June 6, 2008 by younghusband

[hammered]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

I'll give you self-centered out for his own gain...

Thaksin: "Just now, my wife asks me to stay away and, if I have to go to Thailand, not to stay for long. We have intelligence that there may be more danger." He has survived three car bomb attacks and six assassination attempts. "I should be a man who drives around in a nice sports car, not an armoured car," he adds with a smile. Even here, almost five hours of flying from his home, the Lincoln Navigators of his security unit skillfully flank Thaksin's car on his way to a business meeting.

"That is why I bought a football club, to give myself a job after I was the subject of a military coup," he explains simply.

He also launched a national lottery, fought an HIV/AIDS crisis, built a new Bangkok airport and stabilized a creaking economy. But what about the corruption allegations? Untrue; a smear campaign, he responds. What about the reports of almost 3,000 killings in an aggressive offensive against drugs?

"Sometimes, as a leader you must have an angry face*. In the past, I have ignored these allegations published in the Thai media, with whom I have no relationship. The foreign media has since picked them up and this is damaging. Now you are asking me these questions and I am happy to answer."

"These figures you have read are not true. They are figures created by the military. I was not a ruthless dictator. No. There have been investigations: The Premier League, for example, has ways of investigating these matters, I welcomed the Fit and Proper Persons Test for new owners for that reason." He is now free to return to his homeland in return for agreeing to stay out of politics for five years and to concentrate on his "football interests."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2017806

While acknowledging that of course Mr. Thaksin is innocent until proven guilty (if that day in court ever comes), certainly on the question of the drug war deaths he may be being a little disingenious or possibly using politcial spin. While I appreciate that sections or maybe even all of the Thai press are against him. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty did have stuff on the drug war and while acknowledging that at times they are lazy I dont think the international media are as easily fooled by pro-Junta propoganda as he thinks. In fact they often seem to write pieces more sympathetic to the (perceived?) ideas of Mr. Thaksin than directly critical.

Edired to add: one side effect of the copup has been top actually enable Mr. Thaksin to blame all of the critiicisms of him onto being Junta propoganda. In a polarised situation this is effective with supporters. Funnily enough if there had been no coup he may have had more trouble using this tact as he would have had all the power and the claim would seem specious.

Edited June 6, 2008 by hammered

[sriracha john]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

you're a bit fick sunset. aren't yoo? now yoo go get yorself a nice cup of cocoa, stop quarrellin' wive the missus, try to learn to speak her language so yoo can hav a nice conversation togever an get off this forum for a bit. <deleted>

Good to see that some things don't change during an absence.... like sunrise getting taken to school...

funny good stuff, tamsin...

[sriracha john]

Come on h90.... Stop with all this vote buying rubbish... It is obvious that you are just a sad and bitter Democrat support. Offcoarse there will be some irregularities in Thailand. But if you listen to all the International election observers and face the facts the election was as free as it could be in Thailand. Im sick of all these anti-PPP people just saying the same things all the time. FACE IT.. PPP are in power and respect it until the next election. If you want a military JUNTA go to BURMA. Let this country move ahead and stop all this sad bitterness about vote buying and rubbish with Taksin etc.

Five posts, registered two weeks ago, and every single one of them is an anti PAD diatribe (you may have to look that one up in your Thai-English dictionary). Not that sockpuppets are anything new to this board, but you should at least pretend to make some posts in other topics.

Is that colpyat back again?

[Plus]

According to some there is no social conflict, just one man's struggle for power and the evil cronies who do his bidding.Otherwise everything is tickety boo.

According to others the sky is falling. It's been falling for nearly three years now and still hasn't reached the earth. We still can't see what it is exactly that is falling on us and all previous estimates of the object has been proven grossly exagerrated.

>>>

PAD can't just pack up and leave, no matter what happens.

[jumnien]

Yes, I understand Thai. Sondhi is a blithering, self-centered idiot out for his own gain. Read the "New Light of Bangkok" and get all the pro-junta spin you want to hear. Just don't ask us to believe it!

you're a bit fick sunset. aren't yoo? now yoo go get yorself a nice cup of cocoa, stop quarrellin' wive the missus, try to learn to speak her language so yoo can hav a nice conversation togever an get off this forum for a bit. <deleted>

Good to see that some things don't change during an absence.... like sunrise getting taken to school...

funny good stuff, tamsin...

The British <deleted> who wrote that ought to be ashamed of himself! Although I'm certainly all for the his mockery of uneducated low-so Brits. We've got plenty around these parts. Welcome home, John. You were missed!

[jumnien]

Just curious if the coup-mongers can now agree that Abhisit is unfit to be a political leader after his recent comments supporting the PPP's legitimacy? If Abhisit is unfit, don't we throw out the whole party?

[Los78]

Come on h90.... Stop with all this vote buying rubbish... It is obvious that you are just a sad and bitter Democrat support. Offcoarse there will be some irregularities in Thailand. But if you listen to all the International election observers and face the facts the election was as free as it could be in Thailand. Im sick of all these anti-PPP people just saying the same things all the time. FACE IT.. PPP are in power and respect it until the next election. If you want a military JUNTA go to BURMA. Let this country move ahead and stop all this sad bitterness about vote buying and rubbish with Taksin etc.

Five posts, registered two weeks ago, and every single one of them is an anti PAD diatribe (you may have to look that one up in your Thai-English dictionary). Not that sockpuppets are anything new to this board, but you should at least pretend to make some posts in other topics.

Oh sorry.... "Mr. I want the Military Junta back in Thailand" . Is it a rule that I have to write in other forums or somthing??? I will express my opinions like you express your opinions freely...

Mind your own business and go back to your silly waste of time PAD rallies blocking all our roads home. I will try to contribute more in other forums if there is something interesting. Thankyou

[Plus]

There was another source of "new power" - big business.

Unfortunately now they seem to bet on any other horse but Thaksin/PPP.

He can't control politics anymore and attracts troubles at every step, he is of no use.

The only visible proponent of that group is wAnchorman Nattakorn. That guy has decided to run for Bangkok governor. Let's see how he fares.

He might have a point - businessmen are smart and capapble and can give techoncrats a run for their money, and he can pick up where Thaksin had left with reorganising country's governance system, but his ability to lead is questionable and he can't stand people's opinions. He believes in democracy only as long as his intellectual and business supremacy is unchallenged - yet another recipe for disaster.

Utlimately businessmen should stay in business and leaders should lead, but Thailand obviously is facing a serious lack of leaders so everyone is offering his services to fill the void.

[nomoretalksin]

There was another source of "new power" - big business.

Unfortunately now they seem to bet on any other horse but Thaksin/PPP.

He can't control politics anymore and attracts troubles at every step, he is of no use.

The only visible proponent of that group is wAnchorman Nattakorn. That guy has decided to run for Bangkok governor. Let's see how he fares.

He might have a point - businessmen are smart and capapble and can give techoncrats a run for their money, and he can pick up where Thaksin had left with reorganising country's governance system, but his ability to lead is questionable and he can't stand people's opinions. He believes in democracy only as long as his intellectual and business supremacy is unchallenged - yet another recipe for disaster.

Utlimately businessmen should stay in business and leaders should lead, but Thailand obviously is facing a serious lack of leaders so everyone is offering his services to fill the void.

He's a lunatic, with always mixing political (Banharn style) point of views, very big mouth (but quite well educated too) and a very strong TRT (not only Thaksin) believer. I guess he's hoping for the release of the 5 year ban of his TRT heros, and would definitely join up with them, asap where possible. I think a dangerous move for Thailand if the Democrats would loose now Apirak as Major, and Nattakorn another Pro-TRT instead. Better vote for Khun Rosa, she's a corruption fighter. There should be anyway more women in Thai politics. Look at this country. Which species mostly cause trouble and corruption in Thailand? Also within most families? Thai Men! We need strong women (and men) with honest ambitions, and not only big mouth ideas. Dangerious guy for Thailand in politics I guess.

He already declared in March 08 or so, he would have a surprise for us, and would save Thailand. Again another big mouth upfront?

Edited June 6, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[thaigene2]

So this is a great chance for students to learn about social conflicts firsthand. I propose teachers of Mattayom classes take their students around he PAD site and indulge in dialogue regarding the issues.

According to some there is no social conflict, just one man's struggle for power and the evil cronies who do his bidding.Otherwise everything is tickety boo.

I know. It's like there is a group determined to ignore the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

The patronage system is broken - it has been laid out for all the world to see, and more importantly for less priviledged Thais to see - many probably for the first time they've ever thought of it in these terms. That's the reason for all the censorship - it's a weapon that's used - and that was the point of the Economist piece. Thaksin is one of the elites who's abused the patronage system to be sure - but that just further makes the case right? But just to focus on him pretends the gorilla isn't there.

HM the King has done a great job of keeping all these clan leaders at bay - let's juts hope those clans out there recognize the huge favour he's been doing for them - and reconcile with each other - and the 80% of underpriviledged Thais so this country can flourish. To not do so makes the medium term future (20-30) years from now look very grim indeed if not frightening. There really does need to be some for of reconciliation.

[Plus]

I know. It's like there is a group determined to ignore the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

What's that gorilla? Patronage system?

NO ONE is ignoring it, and no one is going to break it or go against it, beginning with Thaksin.

SOME pretend that there's a serious challenge to patronage system. There isn't.

I would go farther and say that this system, the piramid, defines Thailand as a country and as a nation. Some would prefer that Thailand was built around democratic constitution, like the US, but it's obviously not on the cards.

[h90]

I know. It's like there is a group determined to ignore the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

What's that gorilla? Patronage system?

NO ONE is ignoring it, and no one is going to break it or go against it, beginning with Thaksin.

SOME pretend that there's a serious challenge to patronage system. There isn't.

I would go farther and say that this system, the piramid, defines Thailand as a country and as a nation. Some would prefer that Thailand was built around democratic constitution, like the US, but it's obviously not on the cards.

Gorilla=Samak?? But usually Gorillas are more gentle.

[h90]

found that interesting article: http://absolutelybangkok.com/the-vongthip-...un-08/#more-655

A bit too long to copy/paste

[thaigene2]

I know. It's like there is a group determined to ignore the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

SOME pretend that there's a serious challenge to patronage system. There isn't.

I would go farther and say that this system, the piramid, defines Thailand as a country and as a nation. Some would prefer that Thailand was built around democratic constitution, like the US, but it's obviously not on the cards.

Erm...Think the word you're looking for is 'Feudalism"? Historians claim Thailand supposedly evolved from that 76 years ago. Incidentally, did anyone notice if there was a 75th anniversary ceremony last year - you know, to mark the event?

In case you didn't notice there is a Constitution. As for me, Plus, I'd settle for just democratic 'institution' rather than constitution - since the latter sems to be treated like a 'periodical'. How many have their been now?

Edited June 7, 2008 by thaigene2

[Plus]

Ok, feudalism, if you wish, it's still what makes this country what it is, it's just a label.

That's why all these "democratic" reforms have never taken root - no one knows exactly what they are for. At most people hope they can complement and improve their feudalism, not rebuild the society from the ground up like communists want, or like the US did in the absense of established aristocracy.

[thaigene2]

Ok, feudalism, if you wish, it's still what makes this country what it is, it's just a label.

That's why all these "democratic" reforms have never taken root - no one knows exactly what they are for. At most people hope they can complement and improve their feudalism, not rebuild the society from the ground up like communists want, or like the US did in the absense of established aristocracy.

Ayn Rand would have loved you, Plus.

[Plus]

Who TF is Ayn Rand?

[younghusband]

Ok, feudalism, if you wish, it's still what makes this country what it is, it's just a label.

That's why all these "democratic" reforms have never taken root - no one knows exactly what they are for. At most people hope they can complement and improve their feudalism, not rebuild the society from the ground up like communists want, or like the US did in the absense of established aristocracy.

This is an interesting position, and one which with I partly agree.It's worth considering how a country can change out of all recognition and yet remain the same.I have no doubt that in fifty years time Thailand may have changed in ways that might shock both the right and the left, to use as shorthand those rather loose terms (always difficult to apply in Thailand).

George Orwell commented on the same process for England in the middle of WW2.

"The war unless we are defeated will wipe out most of the existing class privileges.There are every day fewer people who wish them to continue.Nor need we fear that as the pattern changes life in England will lose its peculiar flavour....The intellectuals who hope to see it Russianised or Germanised will be disappointed.The gentleness, the hypocrisy, the thoughtlessness, the reverence for law and the hatred of uniforms will remain. along with the suet puddings and the misty skies.It needs some very great disaster such as prolonged subjugation by a foreign enemy to destroy a national culture.The Stock Exchange will be pulled down, the horse plough will give way to the tractor,the country houses will be turned into children's holiday camps, the Eton and Harrow match will be forgotten, but England will still be England, an everlasting animal stretching into the future and the past, and like all living things, having the power tochange out of all recognition and yet remain the same."

And so it will be with Thailand including its feudal tradition. though it is interesting to note that England in fact, apart from becoming enormously richer, changed rather lass than Orwell anticipated - though I think suet puddings have almost disappeared.

How one longs for a latter day Orwell to comment on Thailand.One can just imagine that "crystal spirit" at work on the likes of Thaksin,Chamlong,Chalerm etc as well as other matters we censor ourselves from discussing.

Edited June 8, 2008 by younghusband

[Tony Clifton]

You have to love this one, court`s decision was made under Thaksin`s rule.

How can he have the nerve to say things like this when his own as s is in a sling with the fire truck scandal?

Samak says Central Administration Court protects ASTV

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej repeated a few times during his live talk programme on NBT that the Central Administrative Court is providing immunity for ASTV, which he said criticized the government on around-the-clock basis.

Samak read some questions from his audience, who asked why the government did not take action against ASTV of media tycoon Sondhi Limthongkul.

He replied to the questions by saying the Central Administrative Court has granted an immunity for the satellite station.

The Nation

Samak is obviously confused between court ruling and immunity.

*Note to self : More Photoshop

Edited June 8, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[bulmercke]

The Nation June 6, 2008

Eight schools disrupted by PAD led protest

Almost 30,000 students and 1,200 teachers from eight schools in the vicinity of Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge have suffered from the inconvenience of the rally organised by the People's Alliance for Democracy, the Education Ministry said in a statement released on Thursday.

The ministry is also located nearby the rally site and has found it difficult to conduct business, it said, urging the PAD to relocate its protests to a sport's stadium or another venue away from schools.

I think we all know why the PAD doesn't want to relocate.

[younghusband]

The Nation June 6, 2008

Eight schools disrupted by PAD led protest

Almost 30,000 students and 1,200 teachers from eight schools in the vicinity of Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge have suffered from the inconvenience of the rally organised by the People's Alliance for Democracy, the Education Ministry said in a statement released on Thursday.

The ministry is also located nearby the rally site and has found it difficult to conduct business, it said, urging the PAD to relocate its protests to a sport's stadium or another venue away from schools.

I think we all know why the PAD doesn't want to relocate.

Unless it's because they are already currently causing maximum inconvenience to many in their current location, I have no idea.Please explain.

[bulmercke]

The Nation June 6, 2008

Eight schools disrupted by PAD led protest

Almost 30,000 students and 1,200 teachers from eight schools in the vicinity of Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge have suffered from the inconvenience of the rally organised by the People's Alliance for Democracy, the Education Ministry said in a statement released on Thursday.

The ministry is also located nearby the rally site and has found it difficult to conduct business, it said, urging the PAD to relocate its protests to a sport's stadium or another venue away from schools.

I think we all know why the PAD doesn't want to relocate.

Unless it's because they are already currently causing maximum inconvenience to many in their current location, I have no idea.Please explain.

Well - I'm not sure if they're causing that much inconvenience in their present location - although admittedly there are those that are inconvenienced.

But then again - what's the point in protesting if you're not goin' to make your presence felt.

I think it was the PAD themselves last week that stated that if they were to be confined to either a park or some other like place then they felt their protest would be reduced in stature and importance to some kind of entertainment attraction.

I guess - at the end of the day you're either with them or against them - whatever the reasons for their continued presence at Makkhawan bridge.

[ando]

I guess corporate feudalism is a lot easier to police and keep in check than the family inherited version which controls the military.

Of course the two tend to blur and merge to some extent even in capitalist western democracies.

[ando]

There really has to be something fundamentally wrong with a democratic system that relies on military coups every couple or few years to put it back on course.

Either their concept of democracy is faulty or the people in control of the military simply don't want a true democracy.

[Plus]

.. corporate feudalism is a lot easier to police and keep in check than the family inherited version which controls the military.

I think it's a wrong question - feudalism of any kind means no control by the "grassroots" whatsoever. In practice Thailand's "family inherited version" is less bossy than "corporate version".

Just look at three Consitutions - 1997 and 2007 were inspired by "best of families", 2008 by "corporates". Family version allows for more freedoms and rights and control over the government than PPP sponsored draft, which is written exclusively by politicians for themselves, it's not even true to call it "corporate" since they don't have a backing from big business.