Government Officials And Their 'tea Money!'

[cclub75]

You suggest that 'this little game has little chance to pay.' That's just a ridiculous comment. It's not a little game, it's me adhering to the local laws.

Most Thais are honest and decent, and hate bribes / tea money / corruption / lies etc. It's a shame that so many on Thaivisa seem to have lesser values and only see what they read in the Bangkok Post.

I was refering to your idea to "call the boss". Going up the ladder, when confronted to a corrupted civil servant.

I maintain : this is a little game. And it won't work. For the reasons I've stated (loss of face, to admit that one of your inferior is corrupted attracts light and problems, not good, and also because the boss could be corrupted himself).

Furthermore, I do not take my infos from Bangkok Post... I live with corruption in our factory... Customers, employees, suppliers and... yes government officials (you want I talk to you about Thai Customs ? No I don't think you want to).

Not all of them of course. But a lot. And what is still striking me : at every level of the society. From the lowest to the highest. For 5 THB only to.... no limit.

Now you can of course continue to live in pink wonderland. Fair enough.

[gdhm]

Well I have been here almost 40 years, on and off, and have never had to pay tea money of any kind. If you want special (faster service) yes, that was often the policy. But it got done without payment (unlike in the PI where is was needed to even get the basic things done). If you are paying to break the laws (as big troubles would indicate) it is a bribe - not a payment for overtime charges or a good service tip.

I agree with your views 100% Lopburi3 but regretfully not the reality for most of us. .

I can name 3 occasions where I was told service would be INCREDIBLY slow or not granted (all legitimate and legal requests). All in different Local Government Departments. (I have been in Thailand just 2 years not 40 like you and I have to say on this matter I am very unimpressed with the double standards as 1 of the above was different treatment for me compared to my wife without ANY procedural reasoning APART from possibly deliberate delay or could not be bothered or hope for an offer of a "thank you". My wife tested the water and the "hope for an offer.." was correct (I will not expand)

Not included in the 3 above:

What do you do in situations when an immigration officer hints/jokes to you and your wife "you service me, I service you" several times.

This has happened to me (and in front of my wife and to her in Thai as well) in the past. I was very upset (privately with my wife) as all my paperwork was perfect AND my Visa granted before any hints made.

But what happens on future occasions for many in similar situations when they go back or send in their postal 90 reporting if no "thank you" have been previously given" for normal service? Hopefully nothing - just normal service.

This is what I REALLY hate about Thailand. We are reminded we are but guests here (married or retired or not) and must obey all laws (quite correct) BUT we are told and expected to "when in Rome..." and "we must accept Thai customs and not stick to our own Western ways and values".

Outside many Immigration Offices there is a sign telling us to report wrong doing and a number given.

Go inside and many of us have had "thank yous" requested or hinted at.

How could we prove wrong doing?

Would the officers come clean in an investigation or would they all stick together?

Would our Immigration business in ANY office be smooth running once the snitching got out ?

Would Head Office believe us "the guest" or their Office/officers?

Lopburi3 How can we win.

For me and my morals I want to obey the Law 100% always whether in Thailand (or wherever), but my wife says if you want to get anything done in Thailand you have to accept Zig Zagging. She tells me if I follow my 100% honest law abiding Western ways when 99% of everybody else is not plying by my moral law abiding code then see how much I get done (if much at all) walking a straight line.

I HATE what she says, but tragically all to often I know and have witnessed (as I am sure you have too) she speaks the truth. After all she is Thai and has been here all her life.

Can you honestly tell me Lopburi3 that she is mistaken and we all will get normal service (Thais included) without "thank yous"?

I ask because very few Thais (or Foreigners) seem to think so and few have not experienced "thank you" hints/pressure with Government/local authorities at times.

Lopburi3 I believe you when you say you have never paid tea money in 40 years. I just do not know HOW you managed it or were not obstructed on many occasions for your stance.

Regards

[lopburi3]

My wife will absolutely not pay or allow payment and we normally do not get asked. If there is a hint you just ignore it. Thai are very adapt at choosing there battles and will not push unless they feel they have a fish on the hook. Now older age helps too. Even years ago when they were pulling the "Sunday overtime" extra payment at border they would ask the obvious tourists but my safari suit (or something) would keep them from asking me. I did have an officer one time demand I fill out a "transportation report" when making a border run (I played dumb) and went into office saying I didn't have a clue what the officer wanted and they filled it out for me and made the required copies (while shaking there heads). But there has been a serious reduction in such acts in the last decade so am surprised that you are getting hit often.

That said nothing is ever going to be black or white and we have to do the best we can - but we should not walk in with open wallets.

[phutoie2]

It's the paying of bribes by people like you that make honest people have to wait. Hope you sleep well at nights. Bribes are not normal here - I've never been asked for one in 4 years I've lived here - only when the officials see a joker walking in the office does it become the norm.

So what does a joker walking into the office look like, I am intrigued.

I doubt that an Amphur official would ask a dumb looking farang anyway. The question is usually directed at the Thai W/GF.

I had to purchase a little extra land at the back of our property last year, and a 500 baht baht note had to be placed in the usual brown envelope. Yes p-ssed me off, a lot of LEO.

[gdhm]

My wife will absolutely not pay or allow payment and we normally do not get asked. If there is a hint you just ignore it. Thai are very adapt at choosing there battles and will not push unless they feel they have a fish on the hook. Now older age helps too. Even years ago when they were pulling the "Sunday overtime" extra payment at border they would ask the obvious tourists but my safari suit (or something) would keep them from asking me. I did have an officer one time demand I fill out a "transportation report" when making a border run (I played dumb) and went into office saying I didn't have a clue what the officer wanted and they filled it out for me and made the required copies (while shaking there heads). But there has been a serious reduction in such acts in the last decade so am surprised that you are getting hit often.

That said nothing is ever going to be black or white and we have to do the best we can - but we should not walk in with open wallets.

I agree with everything you say Lopburi3 on this matter. I have often liked and thought very similar to your comments and views over the last 2 years on many issues.

I do feel with Immigration IF individual officers ask/hint then it is very hard not to feel like a "fish on the hook" especially when many of us and (often) our Thai families are in very vulnerable positions because, rightly, wrongly, wisely or not we have all our eggs in the one basket namely, being permitted by our Thai hosts to remain living in Thailand.

I HATE the suggestion of paying anything above the correct fees for normal service, as I do two pricing scales. I experienced this on a small scale in Spain (Spanish or not) - walked out of restaurant (main perpetrators) every time I found it.

Tips to Taxis and restaurants are different because they are genuine with no possible benefit to the payer and are recognised as not possibly being "tea money"as we know it.

I am and will always be happy to accept my position in a queue, normal time delays (even if I don't like it or understand it).

Like waiting now for 6 weeks for my English Toyota manual for my new 100% paid in cash pickup (and still patient -getting less )

I can assure you my wife does not like "Thank yous" any more than I do, but has been exposed to the system in Isaan far too many times to feel too moral about on small issues when she knows others are pushing her back "in the queue" if she doesn't do the same. Her view is not moral and she knows this but 100% understandable.

I have had ONE situation my moral viewpoint could NOT solve.

My UK private pension scheme wanted my divorce and remarriage ORIGINAL certificates. They would NOT accept my 2nd wife on the scheme without the ORIGINALS (their scheme rules -end of discussion). My Amphur office said "NO we always keep the original divorce document when a person later marries again. Your 2nd marriage certificate proves you were divorced legally and that you handed us the original Divorce certificate , otherwise we would not have allowed to marry again."

Well stalemate . In Thailand yes it does. But for my UK pension scheme No it does not, and their rules go by the ability to get UK and original Divorce certificate and not expect to cater for countries with procedures similar to Thailand's of course .

NO solution. I tried everything to convince my pension scheme, even suggested a letter from the Amphur office to confirm Thailand's system and that they held my original Thai divorce certificate- But alas not acceptable by my pension scheme, even if the Amphur office would do that - which I might add they felt they did not need to to, or should do.

I cannot tell you whether the facts reported to me by both sides were 100% correct BUT I can confirm neither side would budge on their own rules.

In the end I was at my wits end trying to resolve the impossible when my wife was offered a "grey" solution by a local officer.

The alternative option: my wife would not be protected by my pension for the rest of her life in the event of my death if I did not accept the solution.

Lopburi3 here was a situation I hope nobody else has to face. Accept the rules of both sides and my wife would not get her entitled pension protection on a technicality and betray my wife's security and that of my very young stepson OR accept the "grey" solution, break my moral beliefs and support my wife with a pension entitlement if I die under my UK pension scheme.

I am very much a law and rules man, but I wish the World in reality was Black and White. Unfortunately we know its not. Even Visa application rules prove this. When you know you have the correct documents, its still down to the individual office and officers interpretation at the time of submission. - it's a very grey World at times.

Kindest Regards

Dave

[Joe Joe]

My choice is paying a few thousand baht (if that is what they will take) to the Mae Sai immigration officers or flying round trip to Bangkok's Suan Phlu, a few nights in a hotel and taxi fares at a cost of 4700 baht. Not to mention the queue and the work at Suan Phlu.

When the time comes I'm going to resist paying any tea money until the quiet conversation is at a dead end and I have no way out of it.