Uk State Pension

[tonyevans]

Can anyone offer advice how best to get the UK State Pension safely in Thailand.

The pension office in Newcastle has advised me to have the pension paid electronically into my bank in the UK and then transfer funds to Thailand. They state that they can only send sterling cheques to Thailand and this can lead to lost post, delays in receiving money but one day they hope electronic transfer will be made available. My company has electronically transferred my company pension direct to my bank account here albeit via the Banks HQ in Bangkok for the last nine years without any problems at all.

If I do have to accept the payment into my UK bank account can I aggregate the two pensions as My total pension when I go to the embassy or can I only declare my company pension as that would be the pension sent directly to my Thai bank.

Any Brits out there already been through this and can advise me.

[doctormann]

Tonyevans

I'm not sure of your age but, presumably, you must be pushing 65 if you are about to receive your UK state pension. I am a few years off yet but I have been looking into this. I already receive a company pension and that is paid into a UK bank account. I have been told that it cannot, at this time, be paid directly to a Thai account as the BACS system does not cover Thailand. I expect that my state pension will also be paid into a UK account when the time comes.

I think that one solution to your problem with money transfers would be to open an offshore account with a UK bank. HSBC and Barclays certainly offer this service for a very modest monthly fee (~£7.50). I have adopted this approach as it enables me to transfer funds easily and bills etc. can be paid directly in Thai Baht, if necessary. The usual debit card for hole-in-the-wall cash is also provided.

So far as the declaration of pension to the authorities is concerned, why should this be a problem? You will need some sort of a bank account in Thailand in any case and provided that you can meet the requirement of having 800,000 Baht in the account or show that your monthly income (transferred from UK or offshore account) is at least 65,000 Baht, you should be OK. I am speaking here of the regulations for staying in Thailand on a long-stay O-A visa - your circumstances may be different.

I hope this helps.

By the way, if you, or anyone, knows how to avoid paying UK tax on pensions then please let me know. I am told that the double taxation agreement between UK and Thailand does not exempt UK citizens from UK tax (even though they are not resident or domiciled in UK). No tax to pay in Thailand on pensions though so that's something to be thankful for.

Regards

Doctormann

[lungbing]

Tony,

I receive a small pension from a UK firm which is paid monthly into a Natiowide Flexaccount in England. I use the ATM card from that account to draw the pension in Khon Kaen where I live and have done this for three years with no trouble.

There is no fee per withdrawal and you seem to get a better rate of baht to the pound too. I have regularly been getting 75 recently.

The only drawback is that Nationwide have this year reduced the life-span of their ATM card to just one year and won't go back to the two years it was originally; I have asked them. So you will have to get the new ATM card sent here or brought here yearly. Perhaps FedEx.

Another angle is that you have to show immigration that you are bringing in money from abroad to qualify for your visa. Could you not live on the original sum you have in a Thai bank to get your visa and then once a year arrange for a full year's pension to paid into your bank account over here. That way not only pleases immigration but you will get a better rate of interest in UK on your money as it accumulates per month than the pittance they pay here. But you have to take whatever the baht/pound rate is at the time of transfer whereas my method evens it out over the year.

It would be nice to not pay UK tax but as payments are made into pension funds tax free they get their pound of flesh upon withdrawal. I love to be proved wrong on that. In fact are there any tax advantages to being non-uk resident?

Ken Dodd once said when he was having trouble with the taxman for underpayment, "When it was introduced, income tax was six pence in the pound. And I thought it still was"

Lung Bing

[doctormann]

The only drawback is that Nationwide have this year reduced the life-span of their ATM card to just one year and won't go back to the two years it was originally; I have asked them. So you will have to get the new ATM card sent here or brought here yearly. Perhaps FedEx.

Just a bit of info on ATM debit cards: Barclays International cards seem to have a life of at least 3 years and, when they eventually expire, a new card is sent out by courier. This is not the case with ordinary UK account cards as they will not post them out (afraid of theft, I believe) and do not courier them either. This was one of the reasons that I opened an off-shore account. You could, conceivably, get a card delivered to a UK address and then have someone forward it for you but this could be a bit dodgy. If the card went astray you might be in the s**t (and don't expect any sympathy from the bank). Don't know about FedEx - never tried.

In fact are there any tax advantages to being non-uk resident?

Still looking. The only advantage that I am aware of is that if you have income that originates outside of the UK then you don't pay UK tax on it if you are not resident. Could still have to pay tax elsewhere though - unless you're somewhere like IoM or Jersey perhaps? Not sure how these tax havens work anyway - probably not too much of a concern unless you're v. rich (and I'm not!).

[astral]

I receive a small pension from a UK firm which is paid monthly into a Natiowide Flexaccount in England. I use the ATM card from that account to draw the pension in Khon Kaen where I live and have done this for three years with no trouble.

There is no fee per withdrawal and you seem to get a better rate of baht to the pound too. I have regularly been getting 75 recently.

This is not really true.

There is no fee in Thailand, but there is a minimum fee in the UK plus a fee dependant on the amount withdrawn.

I bank with Royal Bank of Scotland and so far have not had a problem regarding ATM cards, they will still mail them to me. It is the credit card people in Southend who make a mountain out of a molehill.

I am not sure where you are in the visa stakes?

To get the Non Imm O visa as a retired person you must have 800,000 baht in the bank or an income of 65,000 baht a month. If you go the income route, then you need a letter from the British Embassy certifying your income, state and company pension.

As understand it, that does not mean that you have to bring that money in every month, like clockwork.

In terms of bank charges it is probably best to bring in a sum every 2 or 3 months, letting the money accumulate in an (offshore?) UK account until you need it.

Money in the bank here earns little or no interest.

Make sure you request transfers in POUNDs not baht. The exchange rate here is better than the UK.

Also by keeping a UK address and UK bank account you may still be able to benefit from the increases in pension, that are otherwise denied to you.

Please let us know how you get on.

I hope to draw my UK pension in a few years.

[lopburi3]

Astral has provided good information.

Key points:

Send foreign currency for exchange to baht at the Thailand end.

Do wire transfer once or several times per year to give proof of foreign origin and take advantage of best exchange rates/interest overseas.

The UK increase in pension with address should pay for your extra account/time by itself (did not know they used such a system).

Believe various banks have different policy on atm cards and mail but if you use the wire transfer approach you don't even need a card. Much easier to use a local Thai bank card.

[tonyevans]

Many thanks for the information .

A few more details.

I have been on a continuous retirement visa since 1997, when I was 58.

My company has been tranferring my coy. pension to me every month by electronic transfer since Sept 1997 without any problems at all and currently it exceeds the 65,000 per month easily even at the 60 baht per pound rate applied by Immigration. That rate was in June at my most recent renewal.

The decision I am looking to make is whether to have the UK state pension due to start in November paid into a Thai bank which is by sterling cheque and could take 5 days to clear not really a problem but Newcastle seem reluctant to recommend this route, or to have it paid by electronic transfer to my bank in the UK which is the way they do recommend.

One important question to consider is whether or not I can include the UK state pension, if it is paid to my UK bank, in my declaration to the Embassy for the confirmation required by Immigration or can I only include my pension paid directly to my Thai bank account. This could be an issue if the pound were to only be taken at 55 baht to the pound or lower,because by company pension will reduce by roughly the amount of the state pension as I have a so called top up arrangement until 65. I guess the solution would be to transfer once a year from my UK bank any shortfall in the 800,000 per year requirement.

As for the balance at the bank I am looking to considerably reduce the amount of money held in Thailand but I was unsure if Immigration had a lowest acceptable balance in practice even though a 65,000 baht per month pension should qualify.

It is just a question of which options to apply so the advice received so far will help me to decide.

[lopburi3]

You have answered your own question and we would, I believe, advise you to bank your pension in your UK account with electronic transfer and when/if needed send some to bank in Thailand by wire transfer. You can use bank account by itself with no pension here in Thailand so it is not going to be a problem unless the exchange rate goes down to where both are less than needed and you can not make up the difference in a bank account. In other words you are in good shape.

I do not know what UK requires for paper you take to immigration but US it is just your word but assume you would have retirement paperwork to show Embassy if needed anyhow. But as said the bank account here is all that is required in any event.

[Pieman]

I've been receiving pension cheques from NHS superannuation dept for 7 years or so. The dept will not sent money by any electronic method to Thailand because of problems in the past and lack of contractual agreements to re-pay overpayments. I believe that State Pension dept operate on the same principle. As I have no UK bank account I have no option but to receive cheques. So far, I have only lost 3. Not bad over 7 years. However, it takes a lot longer than 5 days to clear these cheques. No Thai bank will do it in less than 28 days and most are like the Siam Commercial Bank and quote 45 days!

[Nomad97]

Doctormann

You asked if there was anyway to avoid paying tax on a UK pension. In short, the answer is yes. If you gained your pension while in service overseas the taxman will consider giving you the pension free of UK tax.

[boogie]

One other important fact you should consider is that Thailand is not one of the countries where you will receive increases to the UK state pension. Unless you live in the EEC or Barbados, Bermuda, Canada,Cyprus,Israel, Jamaica,Japan, Jersey and Guernsey,Korea,Malta,Mauritius,New Zealand,Philppines,Turkey,USA or Yugoslavia you will not receive an increase when the rates go up. Absolutely crazy, but true unfortunately. In essence your pension will be frozen.

This was challenged in the high court, but unfortunately the case was lost.

[doctormann]

Thanks Nomad.

Unfortunately all my pensionable service was UK based so it looks as though I'm lumbered with paying UK tax.

[tonyevans]

Thanks Lopburi3, Pieman and boogie for the additional information.

When I checked with the Kasikornbank about cheque clearance delays I thought the clerk said 4 to 5 days. I realise now from piemans post that she said 45 days.

That has made my decision easy.

[astral]

One other important fact you should consider is that Thailand is not one of the countries where you will receive increases to the UK state pension. Unless you live in the EEC or Barbados, Bermuda, Canada,Cyprus,Israel, Jamaica,Japan, Jersey and Guernsey,Korea,Malta,Mauritius,New Zealand,Philppines,Turkey,USA or Yugoslavia you will not receive an increase when the rates go up.

That was why I suggested keeping a UK address and bank account, then you can tell the Pension Dept you are back in the UK. Then you will get annual increases.

These days overseas cheques are a real pain.

Direct payment to a UK account, then TT money here when you need, it is the best solution.

I cannot see any problem in declaring your state pension to the Embassy for inclusion in the declaration of income. They of all people do know the rates, without paperwork backup. Though I suggest you have the statement as well.

The Thai's just want to see guaranteed income, they do not mind who pays it.

[Guest endure]

This is not really true.

There is no fee in Thailand, but there is a minimum fee in the UK plus a fee dependant on the amount withdrawn.

Specifically for the Nationwide Flexaccount ATM card it IS true. They make NO charge for its use and you get the Interbank rate on all withdrawals.

[Up2U]

Regarding credit / debit cards - do any UK banks / building societies send them to Thailand? From the posts above, plus personal experience, it seems not.

The alternative that I have used in other countries is to pick it up at the counter of a 'sister' bank - in Saudi the Saudi-British Bank was associated with Barclays, for instance and one could pick up a card in a nominated branch.

Is that possible in LOS?

I seldom visit UK, last time I asked the bank to send it to my sister for forwarding, but they screwed-up and sent it to the wrong address. Someone emptied my account, but the bank ( L*****T*B. ) have done nothing about finding culprit, compensating me. Luckily it only cost me £ 6,000, but I'm not going that route again.

So suggestions welcome - I've been living without plastic for three years now and miss the occasional convenience.

[lungbing]

Up2U,

An interesting point. If my UK bank can use their system to get my ATM card to an associated bank in Bangkok, perhaps they would EMS it to me from BKK if I pay as needed. I'll enquire, but I don't hold out much hope. Otherwise its a Fed-Ex job if no friend/relative is coming over.

And I am sure that my Nationwide ATM withdrawal is free of charges. Or it's hidden in the exchange rate, but I do seem to get a good rate as well.

Lung Bing

[Nuff Said]

Regarding the sending of credit/debit cards by UK banks to Thailand, it seems from my experience that it varies according to the bank or credit card company.

The Halifax will send Current Account Debit Cards, but not their own issue Visa Cards. When I asked why they told me that Visa do not allow their cards to be posted to Thailand. So I use a UK address for this and get a friend to bring it over.

Citibank send Mastercards here, sometimes as disguised mail as they term it. By that I mean enclosed in a magazine etc, but my most recent one was just in an ordinary envelope by normal post.

[lopburi3]

Regarding the sending of credit/debit cards by UK banks to Thailand, it seems from my experience that it varies according to the bank or credit card company.

The Halifax will send Current Account Debit Cards, but not their own issue Visa Cards. When I asked why they told me that Visa do not allow their cards to be posted to Thailand. So I use a UK address for this and get a friend to bring it over.

Citibank send Mastercards here, sometimes as disguised mail as they term it. By that I mean enclosed in a magazine etc, but my most recent one was just in an ordinary envelope by normal post.

I have a South of the border Visa card from one of the largest banks and they have no problem mailing to Thailand so guess it is probably a bank policy rather than Visa.

[astral]

Royal Bank of Scotland will mail ATM cards here, but their sister organisation for Credit Cards in Southend will not.

Do you have a friend in the UK who can act as a post box, then mail or courier the cards to you?

[Thetyim]

Why can they not have a system whereby the new card is not usuable for purchases until you have used it in an ATM and activated it with your PIN number.

Surely that would be secure and cheap to operate ?

[Nuff Said]

Royal Bank of Scotland will mail ATM cards here, but their sister organisation for Credit Cards in Southend will not.

Do you have a friend in the UK who can act as a post box, then mail or courier the cards to you?

Citibank, who do send cards here, have a system whereby the cardholder has to contact the call centre to acknowledge receipt of the card and answer some security questions before they will activate the card. I believe that this is quite common practice throughout the industry.

[Up2U]

Regarding the sending of credit/debit cards by UK banks to Thailand, it seems from my experience that it varies according to the bank or credit card company.

The Halifax will send Current Account Debit Cards, but not their own issue Visa Cards. When I asked why they told me that Visa do not allow their cards to be posted to Thailand. So I use a UK address for this and get a friend to bring it over.

Citibank send Mastercards here, sometimes as disguised mail as they term it. By that I mean enclosed in a magazine etc, but my most recent one was just in an ordinary envelope by normal post.

I have a South of the border Visa card from one of the largest banks and they have no problem mailing to Thailand so guess it is probably a bank policy rather than Visa.

Lopburi - I thought you were American?

The problem seems to be with UK banks, where the 'High Street' banks (HKSB, Barclays, LloydsTSB being about all that is left) are notoriously backward in their practices. Dealing with all of them several times a month, I find that they will not use e-mail communication, preferring the telephone and fax. I do not mind fax messages, but refuse to use the telephone, as there is no written evidence for any promises made and broken.

(And anyway the 'call-centres' are probably based around Delhi and the workers couldn't give a stuff about your problems)

[astral]

Citibank, who do send cards here, have a system whereby the cardholder has to contact the call centre to acknowledge receipt of the card and answer some security questions before they will activate the card. I believe that this is quite common practice throughout the industry.

Nice thought.

I wonder why the load of B(W)ANKERS at Southend can't manage that.

[lopburi3]

Lopburi - I thought you were American?

And that is South of the border (Canada) as it appears Nuff was talking about Canadian bank.

((but on second reading see he mentions UK address so guess it is just my downeast American childhood that made me only associate that name with Novia Scotia.))

[phormio]

...

I seldom visit UK, last time I asked the bank to send it to my sister for forwarding, but they screwed-up and sent it to the wrong address. Someone emptied my account, but the bank ( L*****T*B. ) have done nothing about finding culprit, compensating me. Luckily it only cost me £ 6,000, but I'm not going that route again.

...

Too bad, in the States they have a law that limits losses to $50 for unauthorized withdrawals from accounts. Surprised they don't have similar regs in England.

[Rinrada]

screwed-up and sent it to the wrong address. Someone emptied my account, but the bank ( L*****T*B. ) have done nothing about finding culprit, compensating me. Luckily it only cost me £ 6,000, but I'm not going that route again.

.

That happened to me a couple of times with RBS visa cards.

One time I used it in the Phill.Islands and the bills kept coming in even when I was back in the UK.

One receipt was for diving gear in Manila while on the same day I used mine (real one )in a Chinese restaurant in Pock.East Yorkshire (food not bad )

Anyway I informed the bank who did not seem to care too much and insisted that their security boys would investigate.

Anyway when they finally got a copy of a cloned printout with name spelled incorectly etc.obviously wrong signature plus mine had my photo on it.

The bank still lost almost £5000 (my limit) but I did NOT lose anything.

It was pretty inconvienent however and took about 6 months to sort out.

On another 2 occasions the "card" was again obviously intercepted before I got it through the post and subsequent bills were for "Rasta -Bling-Bling" type of clothing bought somewhere in Tottenham....def not me.I have only got the one suit and that was from a sale in M&S about 15 years ago ....nice bit of material.

Final bills still came to over £2k before they stopped,but agin bank didnt seem to give a toss??

Re sending to LOS..the wife makes up parcels for her mates and never has /had a problem.

Last one was full of Vitamine Pills,about £100 worth,that they cant get over there. and even I would admit if I opened the pack and found that lot I would be suspicious............pills..C"Mon ..however again as said nae problem.

May help of course that that address and recipients were all in Thai.

[Nomad97]

Funnily enough my VISA Card expires this month. I have just received notification today from Lloyds TSB that they are quote, ' will not be able to post you card on this occasion as the bank has experienced an unacceptable level of correspondence destined for your country being lost or stolen' end quote.

However, they are quite prepared to send my new card to a UK address through normal postage channels or to Thailand by International Datapost, a courier service which guarantees secure delivery (at a cost of £30). Please advise!

It would seem that different banks do different things. My Lloyds TSB bank is an offshore account on the Isle of Man. My UK pensions are paid into this account and I transfer the money I require to Thailand each month - 2 to 3 days for the transfer. The VISA Card is for 'ad-hoc' amounts as required through the ATM.

[astral]

I would choose the DataPost option, but my Bank does not offer it!!

[Up2U]

My onshore Lloyds refuses to send to Thailand - remember they are the people who lost the card within the UK.

I have not bothered to check with my IOM Lloyds - but I would pay the Data-post charges if it meant that I got a card for use out here.

I will follow that idea further - when my overdraft is cleared