How Many Thais Perceive Right From Wrong...

[Prakanong]

No need... as stated, I don't believe yours and his level of English is similar.

A single Thaivisa post is more than Thaksin could manage.

Calling him "Dr." is a disservice to all legitimate-holders of the title.

So, you are saying that he does not in fact have a Ph.D.? If that is what you mean, please say so. If that is not in fact what you mean, kindly state exactly what it is that you mean by (quote) Calling him "Dr." is a disservice to all legitimate-holders of the title

I'm not saying that at all.

I thought that would have been clear by now, but nevertheless, I am sure as per the post I quoted of wamberal that likely the MBA was obtained in his example... it doesn't mean it is legitimate just because one has one.

As for why it's a disservice to those that legitimately struggled and put forth the tremendous effort and dedication necessary to obtain this highest honor... does that really need to be explained?

John - do you have any idea how and MBA is obtained - thought not

Even if someone did your assignments you still have to go in that room for exams alone. I imagine it would be harder without doing the assignment yourself as you miss out on probably two exam questions you might know about with the research for the assignment.

I am not condoning peole who cheat in any way though.

[A_Traveller]

^ No he doesn't hold an MBA {Masters in Business Administration} He holds a Masters in Criminal Justice from Eastern Kentucky University, and a Doctorate in criminal justice from Sam Houston State University in Texas with a dissertation on "An Analysis of the Relationship Between the Criminal Justice Educational Process and the Attitude of the Student Toward the Rule of Law."

Please review this against his son's activities.

Regards

Edited March 8, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Prakanong]

^ No he doesn't He holds a masters in Criminal Justice from Eastern Kentucky University, and a doctorate in criminal justice from Sam Houston State University in Texas with a dissertation on "An Analysis of the Relationship Between the Criminal Justice Educational Process and the Attitude of the Student Toward the Rule of Law."

Please review this against his son's activities.

Regards

You are correct - I had it in my mind he had a MBA from Wharton for some strange reason.

Its still a leap though from someone elses experience to assert somebdy wrote Thakins thesis without any evidence.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Prakanong

[A_Traveller]

The Wharton qualification was something which was put 'out there' and has gained traction, possibly another honest mistake by someone.

Regards

PS Years ago one could obtain an overview from ProQuest Dissertations, but since the company was merged and became more 'commercial' it's difficult for non subscribers to access.

PPS No I'm not a subscriber.

Edited March 8, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Prakanong]

The Wharton qualification was something which was put 'out there' and has gained traction, possibly another honest mistake by someone.

Regards

Its strange how something sticks!

I wrote in another thread how last night a friend and his GF toitally denied they were at a party I was at last May even sfter I described the whole night and who was there.

Then for 5 years I thought the score between Man U and Sunderland at Old Trafford in 1975 (old Div 2) was 2-2 and argued about this in the queue with a pal at Roker Park only to be corrected by an old chap behind. I was at the bloody game as well and when I got back my girlfriend had two timed me with Terry Fenwick who was at fault for the Maradona goal in 1986 World Cup quarter final.

PS: After that rambling I am off to Boat Quay to watch rugby and footbal.

[chevykanteve]

^ No he doesn't hold an MBA {Masters in Business Administration} He holds a Masters in Criminal Justice from Eastern Kentucky University, and a Doctorate in criminal justice from Sam Houston State University in Texas with a dissertation on "An Analysis of the Relationship Between the Criminal Justice Educational Process and the Attitude of the Student Toward the Rule of Law."

Please review this against his son's activities.

Regards

Sorry, but that comment is another quantum-leap-type-retort a la Si Racha (No offense, Si Racha John!).

Edited March 8, 2008 by chevykanteve

[sriracha john]

If Prakanong or yourself would care to explain the glaring reality of Post #17.... please let us know.

[A_Traveller]

^^ I wonder if you are perceptionally challenged? The dissertation title clearly states the the relationship between education of the rule set and the concomitant application of the rule set. Now, in his son's case the actions {cheating} were undertaken within a framework of appreciation of the strictures placed against such activity {both by society as a whole, and more critically, in this discussion, within the institution itself}. Such a position is coterminous with the underlying perceptions being analysed for a Doctorate of Criminal law by Khun Thaksin.

I am surprised that one who makes such grandiloquent claims about their own educational attainments is unable to absorb such an posited case.

Regards

Edited March 8, 2008 by A_Traveller

[chevykanteve]

If Prakanong or yourself would care to explain the glaring reality of Post #17.... please let us know.

John, I have to admit you had me going there for an instant, till I re-read Post #17. And having re-read it, what in bloody hel_l are you talking about? WHAT reality, glaring or otherwise, is present in that post?????

I'm tempted to say you're jumping at straws for reasons that only you understand, but I won't say that.

[sriracha john]

^^ I wonder if you are perceptionally challenged? The dissertation title clearly states the the relationship between education of the rule set and the concomitant application of the rule set. Now, in his son's case the actions {cheating} were undertaken within a framework of appreciation of the strictures placed against such activity {both by society as a whole, and more critically, in this discussion, within the institution itself}. Such a position is coterminous with the underlying perceptions being analysed for a Doctorate of Criminal law by Khun Thaksin.

I am surprised that one who makes such grandiloquent claims about their own educational attainments is unable to absorb such an posited case.

Regards

that's a keeper....

[sriracha john]

If Prakanong or yourself would care to explain the glaring reality of Post #17.... please let us know.

John, I have to admit you had me going there for an instant, till I re-read Post #17. And having re-read it, what in bloody hel_l are you talking about? WHAT reality, glaring or otherwise, is present in that post?????

Quite simple really.

How do you explain his expressed and displayed English communication skills (aka reality), orally and written, with that of someone awarded a PhD that was completed using that same English with its level of skill?

[marshbags]

What the hel* does this mean in all reality Marshbags dear?

I did submit a response to this, unfortunately for me i,ve probably hit the wrong button when sending it so i,ll keep it to a minimum, as my time is limited.

You take what you want from the article, which, after all is offered for further debate and observation.

You for one obviously don,t find anything to debate, and that is your right, but i,m not sure what your particular response is intended to do, or indeed what the tone of your well thought out, 11 worded reply is meant to achieve.

The red part stood out for me along with the negative mindset that appears in todays society.

That being, many students are observing their peers and are being encouraged to be dishonest and cheat, rather than study hard, and in a dilligent manner befitting the maturing of the modern Thailand along with rewarding those who rightly deserve it.

Many who do, are not getting the rewards that years of study and hard work they have rightly earned and yet are overlooked by the old nutmeg, priviledge, and nothing more.

A recent example being a member of a less than ethical family, who has been gifted a supporting role within government, just because of who his father happens to be.

Thuggery being the number one qualification on his C.V. and a replica of his father, who has a history of unethical behaviour.

If you have been in Thailand for a few years, you will be all to aware of several such examples, if you haven,t then i would suggest reading up on Thai culture in relation to neptism, cronyism ect. ect.

Should you be in this minority group of what is considered " PUYAI " then you can expect the most rewarding and prominent positions your phoney status allows you, not give a dam_n, acquire the required qualifications via who your parents / relatives happen to be and live your young life as a complete ar*ole* and develop into the likes of your peers.

Many of our children are taught how to be dilligent and to study hard to become a respected and positive member of society and this is for me the only way to go as a caring parent.

IMH and HO as always.

marshbags

P.S.

There are god only knows many, many qualified, experienced individuals who are more deserving by a mile, yet are overlooked completely because of phoney privilege and neptism and it is high time the mould was broken.

If you don,t get it, then as the famous saying goes out here, UTY, no problem.

Edited March 8, 2008 by marshbags

[mrt273nva]

how come a student able to write such a well argumented plea needs to resort to cheating to pass an exam?

because he is lazy, not stupid. I use to cheat in high school all the time because i couldn't be bothered to do the tedious work. I never cheated once at the University level because I realized the importance behind the material.

[jstumbo]

^^ I wonder if you are perceptionally challenged? The dissertation title clearly states the the relationship between education of the rule set and the concomitant application of the rule set. Now, in his son's case the actions {cheating} were undertaken within a framework of appreciation of the strictures placed against such activity {both by society as a whole, and more critically, in this discussion, within the institution itself}. Such a position is coterminous with the underlying perceptions being analysed for a Doctorate of Criminal law by Khun Thaksin.

I am surprised that one who makes such grandiloquent claims about their own educational attainments is unable to absorb such an posited case.

Regards

I like to think that I am educated, but to tell you the truth, your post had too many $2 words for me to comprehend it.

Edited March 8, 2008 by jstumbo

[jstumbo]

Then how come a student able to write such a well argumented plea needs to resort to cheating to pass an exam?

He cheated, he had someone write it for him.

[pete_r]

If Prakanong or yourself would care to explain the glaring reality of Post #17.... please let us know.

John, I have to admit you had me going there for an instant, till I re-read Post #17. And having re-read it, what in bloody hel_l are you talking about? WHAT reality, glaring or otherwise, is present in that post?????

Quite simple really.

How do you explain his expressed and displayed English communication skills (aka reality), orally and written, with that of someone awarded a PhD that was completed using that same English with its level of skill?

I'll pick up the gauntlet... John, if you talk to Thai lecturers who hold a PhD from US or UK universities, you will find that a good proportion of them are less than fluent in English, just like Thaksin. However if you open their PhD thesis, the written English is all good and up to her Majesty's standards. How did they write so well? Simple: First they write the science in "funny English", then they get their mates with good English skills to twist the sentences back into proper grammar and articulation. That's how, and it doesn't mean that they don't deserve their degree, because the science, the years of research work, comes from them.

Then comes the oral defense. How can a Thai student not fluent in English survive this? Again, because the jury at those sessions focuses on the science, so the student will pass as long as he can get the science across. And after 4 to 6 years of studies in an English-speaking environment, the English skills are good enough for that.

Conclusion: I don't know how Thaksin got his PhD (and I don't think you know either), but in my book being less than fluent in English is not a barrier for getting a PhD degree outside Thailand. Otherwise there would be much fewer Thai lecturers with foreign degrees around the country.

[JetsetBkk]

"Now I am sitting in front of you, it's hard to say if I am repentant. Perhaps it was just unlucky that I was caught red-handed. If only, if only, I could have got away with it. I simply hope that my family is powerful enough to stop the current staff who are investigating the case.

marshbags, I think you should've highlighted the bit above in red too. That he even thinks like that is very sad.

[marshbags]

"Now I am sitting in front of you, it's hard to say if I am repentant. Perhaps it was just unlucky that I was caught red-handed. If only, if only, I could have got away with it. I simply hope that my family is powerful enough to stop the current staff who are investigating the case.

marshbags, I think you should've highlighted the bit above in red too. That he even thinks like that is very sad.

Agreed JB and this highlights the origin of where they get their mindset from in the first place, should it not be apparent to those unable to grasp it.

marshbags

[seonai]

Marshbags thanks for the explanation and I completely agree with you. I was tired last night when I asked and hadn't read your post properly. I have first hand experience of this awful system too. I taught in Bkk for several years and was actually pulled up several times for giving students 'c' grades when they deserved them. Terrible time for me and totally unfair for all concerned

[jumnien]

There is some devious illusion that success comes through hard work. If that were true, Burmese construction workers would be the richest in Thailand and the expats prowling the bars would have net worths less than five dollars. What is is what is.

[Thai at Heart]

The lack of responsibility among students is a worldwide phenomenon, and is not linked only to Thai students.

That being said, you never hear about the students who are doing things the right way, growing into young and responsible adults (I would say that this covers the majority, rather than the minority). Its only the bad apples who make the news, and cause us to bemoan the fact that today's youth have "lost their way".

I would propose that the perception of this lost generation is more the fault of the news media, who choose to only highlight negative stories, as it sells more copies.

The crime in Thailand only occurs if you get caught. Until then, unfortunately, the moral compasses of west and east never cross.

[higgy88]

Here is an interesting article from Newsweek on this subject for those interested.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/46953

Here is a quote from the article.

In a huge study of 50,000 college and 18,000 high-school students in the United States by Duke University's Center for Academic Integrity, more than 70 percent admitted to having cheated. That's up from about 56 percent in 1993 and just 26 percent in 1963.

[elkangorito]

From what my Thai work colleagues have been telling me for the past 1.5 years, the idea that one must "appear" to be rich, powerful etc, is ALL important in Thailand. As a matter of fact, one colleague told me that it is part of "Thai Culture". If I extrapolate this concept, then so could dishonesty be a part of Thai Culture.

Nonetheless, a friend sent me the following text in an email. Some of you may have already seen it:

"Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this! Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.

Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2 : The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3 : You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4 : If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.

Rule 5 : Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one."

Also, most Australian universities require non-English speaking students to achieve a minimum IELTS score of 5.0 before they can enroll in a course.

IELTS score analysis attached below:

EDIT:

If you visit "Yahoo Answers", you'll get an idea of just how many kids are too lazy to get off their <deleted> & learn something. I make particular reference to the "engineering" section.

Edited March 8, 2008 by elkangorito

[A_Traveller]

^ The above has nothing to do with Bill Gates <sigh> but is Charles J. Sykes, author of the book Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why American Children Feel Good About Themselves But Can't Read, Write, Or Add.

There are three other rules from Mr Sykes,

Rule No. 12: Smoking does not make you look cool. It makes you look moronic. Next time you're out cruising, watch an 11-year-old with a butt in his mouth. That's what you look like to anyone over 20. Ditto for "expressing yourself" with purple hair and/or pierced body parts.

Rule No. 13: You are not immortal. (See Rule No. 12.) If you are under the impression that living fast, dying young and leaving a beautiful corpse is romantic, you obviously haven't seen one of your peers at room temperature lately.

Rule No. 14: Enjoy this while you can. Sure parents are a pain, school's a bother, and life is depressing. But someday you'll realize how wonderful it was to be a kid. Maybe you should start now. You're welcome.

Regards

[kat]

Here is an interesting article from Newsweek on this subject for those interested.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/46953

Here is a quote from the article.

In a huge study of 50,000 college and 18,000 high-school students in the United States by Duke University's Center for Academic Integrity, more than 70 percent admitted to having cheated. That's up from about 56 percent in 1993 and just 26 percent in 1963.

OK, but you quoted the above article in an abbreviated version that is misleading. It is not a phenomenon new only to American schools, but a global pattern due the onslaught of both globalization, and technology. The terms of cheating also need to be untangled and clear, such as the difference between cheating on standardized tests, and general in-class cheating and plagarism. The point is that this isn't a cultural phenomenon of the West or America, but a new and growing issue that is viewed as a problem because of technology and the global reach of businesses and groups that profit from cheating technologies and applications. It is more strictly controlled at the micro class level, where cheating and plagarism are more easily caught and disqualified, but that component is not considered or qualified in this article. Here is the continuation of your quote above:

"Internet plagiarism has quadrupled in the past six years, according to the same study. In Britain, a recent government-sponsored report found such rampant cheating in the state-run GCSE and A-level exams that Secretary of Education Ruth Kelly called for a total revamp of the coursework system before 2008. Hundreds of Asian universities' Web-based bulletin boards are dumping grounds for the memorized answers to Test of English as a Foreign Language questions--the basis of most U.S. colleges' admittance of foreign students.

Nearly all of India's ultracompetitive entrance exams have been stolen and sold to students at least once during the past five years. In 2004 students paid up to $15,000 apiece for access to answers to India's Pre-Medical Test--and the perpetrators pocketed $1 million. In China, where the number of university students has almost tripled since 1998 to 16 million, police last year cracked one of the biggest qiangshou (hired gun) gangs--Web-based agencies where students can hire expert look-alikes to take any of a host of national exams for them. The gang had already taken in $212,000 from nearly 1,000 students in 19 provinces across the country. Also in 2005, South Korea faced the biggest exam-cheating scandal in its history when officials realized that the previous fall's national college-entrance exam, the CSAT, had been infiltrated by more than 20 cheating rings across the country; "

[thedivezone]

Several years ago I did a long consulting assignment with a large Thai organisation. My main counterpart, who ended up heading the organisation, sent his daughter to the States to do an MBA.

She struggled big-time, so he ordered his staff (some of whom had MBAs) to do her assignments for her.

That would explain Thaksin's English-language dissertation for a PhD obtained in the States.

Thatr is a leap - one board members experience is proof of something not related BHWAAAAAAAAA - that borders on mental distress to put it lightly.

Evidence my dear chap - not your personal supposition.

BTW Thaksin has and MBA and a PHd - what is your level of education?

May i politely suggest that Prakanong and Chevykantare listen to Thaksin's english oratory skills first and then try to reread SriRachaJohn's post . John's meaning will certainly become a lot clearer to them then !

[thedivezone]

While I do not doubt that cheating is rampant in the Thai education system, there is no way that letter was written by a teenage Thai student. No teenager in Thailand is going to write like that, or make allusions to songs no one has heard of any more like 'Que Sera Sera.' This was written by an adult as an illustration of the problems that exist in the system.

If you read the article again, you will notice that nowhere it was said that it was WRITTEN by the said teenager, but rather was the result of an "interrogation".

Nor did it say that it was not edited for grammar.

[spasticated]

<br />There is some devious illusion that success comes through hard work. If that were true, Burmese construction workers would be the richest in Thailand and the expats prowling the bars would have net worths less than five dollars. What is is what is.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

In an ideal world is what I meant.

[PadThaiGuy]

With this kids qualifications (family connections) he maybe a Senator or head up a Ministry.

Somthing tells me the folks running that new Airport went to the same school.

[DP25]

If you read the article again, you will notice that nowhere it was said that it was WRITTEN by the said teenager, but rather was the result of an "interrogation".

Nor did it say that it was not edited for grammar.

It said it's a confession, and is signed by 'the student,' so either he wrote it himself, or he said it during an interview and someone wrote it up. I do not think either happened, I think it is a work of fiction to illustrate a point that education in Thailand is corrupt.

Hey, maybe there is even a student that is gonna get off on cheating for writing this heartfelt anti cheating letter, or at least signing his name to the one they wrote for him.