Tone Inconsistencies

[waveydavey]

Hi, I'm currently learning Thai. I've completed 'Teach Yourself Thai' by David Smyth and I'm now working my way through the 'Thai For Intermediate Learners' book by Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

I've been a bit disconcerted to find quite a few differences in the treatment of tones between the 2 books however. These seem to centre on the use of short dead vowels. The Smyth book seems to treat these as neutral tone whereas in the PB book it varies, depending on the context. Here's some examples -

ประมาณ (about) Smyth says bpra(-)mahn(-) PB says bpra(L)mahn(-)

บุหรี่ (cigarette) Smyth : boo(-)ree(L) PB : boo(L)ree(L)

สะอาด (clean) Smyth : sa(-)aht(L) PB : sa(L)aht(L)

ผลไม้ (fruit) Smyth : pon( R)la(-)mai(H) PB : pon( R)la(H)mai(H)

นามสกุน (surname) Smyth : nahm(-)sa(-)goon(-) PB : nahm(-)sa(L)goon(-)

There are many more examples. It looks to me like the Smyth book is wrong in every case or am I missing something more fundamental? It's a pain having to un-learn many of the words I've just learnt.

[meadish_sweetball]

The difference lies in elaborate, careful pronunciation (emphasized by Becker), and in fast/relaxed speech (emphasized by Smyth).

The tone rules apply to the elaborate pronunciation when reading something aloud or speaking slowly (for example when you have to repeat a word to somebody who did not catch you the first time).

Short unstressed syllables in compound words tend to get a mid tone in normal speech and this is what Smyth's book reflects. Becker on the other hand stresses the tone rules in all cases.

In other words, according to the tone rules, Becker is correct in all your examples above. If you listen to how people actually speak in everyday life, Smyth is more on the mark.

[5tash]

in my opinion the smythe book is wrong in each example. middle consonants ie, บ ป ส with short vowels should produce a low tone. the smythe book indicates a mid/neutral tone. i understand that thais sometimes when speaking pronounce these consonants with a mid tone. maybe the smythe book is showing the spoken form rather than the written. i'm sure someone with more experience could explain in a bit more detail.

simon.

[withnail]

Meadish is correct. Whilst according to the rules a low tone is correct in natural speech this levels out. If you look at page 16 in the Becker book this is explained using two very common examples: อะไร arai and สวัสดี sawatdee.

[Rikker]

The reason these syllables are pronounced with mid tones in normal speech is because they are unstressed. Many languages have phenomena like this. In English, unstressed vowels all become a schwa sound (rather like 'uh'), no mater how they're actually written. 'America' is actually pronounced (in native normal speech) as uh-mer-uh-kuh. It just so happens that for Thai, one of the effects of continuous speech at normal speed is that unstressed syllables lose their distinctive tone.

To frame it in linguistic terms, Becker gives the "strong form" or "citation form" of the words--the so-called proper pronunciation according to the rules. Smyth gives the "weak form" or common form, the form that sounds like how real people talk in the real world.

[tgeezer]

The reason these syllables are pronounced with mid tones in normal speech is because they are unstressed. Many languages have phenomena like this. In English, unstressed vowels all become a schwa sound (rather like 'uh'), no mater how they're actually written. 'America' is actually pronounced (in native normal speech) as uh-mer-uh-kuh. It just so happens that for Thai, one of the effects of continuous speech at normal speed is that unstressed syllables lose their distinctive tone.

To frame it in linguistic terms, Becker gives the "strong form" or "citation form" of the words--the so-called proper pronunciation according to the rules. Smyth gives the "weak form" or common form, the form that sounds like how real people talk in the real world.

The answer would be for the books to explain. Most people are trying to learn Thai and will speak it with a foreign accent and may prefer to learn how to say it correctly first and know the rules, if it subsequently 'comes out' the way Thais say it that is ok. I still say ไหม with a rising tone, I think.

[waveydavey]

Thanks for the replies folks, it makes sense now.

As Geezer said, it would have been better if the Smyth book had explained what they were doing though, especially as it's a book for beginners who by definition will be trying to grasp the tone rules

[CuriousGeorge77]

Just my 2 satang worth .... The leveling out of tones is something that occurs from physiology and efficiency ... IMHO, if you learn the 'proper' way you will naturally start speaking the fast and relaxed way, well, when you start speaking fast and relaxed.