The Restaurants And Stores Are Always Packed

[Heng]

I think the issue for many of the jealous/bitter folks is that they are part of the burned bridges/stuck here brigade. It's not so easy to just go back home and 'earn.' Many of these guys/gals are older, or younger and for some reason decided to skip out on school and/or college, no longer have homes to go "home" to, some are escaping from alimony and child support (and then they pair up with the exact same kind of spouse here... only with a por 3 education), the variations are endless. Then they find out that they aren't allowed to work in hundreds of professions and/or amass property, their spouses expect them (or worse yet, they put unrealistic expectations upon themselves) to find a way to keep up with the Sathienthais anyway. It's totally understandable why a lot of folks appear slightly overheated.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Heng

[steveromagnino]

The average household wage of Bangkok at that time was something in the realm of about 30-40,000b a month.

I don't know what you (or the study) defined as the "household wage")? How many wage earners were included in the household to come up with this B 30-40k figure? More than likely that there were 3-4 earners in said household so their wages were more in the B 10-15k each.

As to your figures of B 30-40k for basically entry level pink-color workers in Bangkok...I think you are way high in your figures.

'not exactly a lot of money these days; in All Season Place, Q house Lumpini or most other grade A buildings, even the maids are earning at least 10k; you cannot afford to hire clowns to work in such expensive surroundings. Grads are earning 15-25k; most run of the mill staff on at least 15k and mostly 2 or 3 times that. management at least 40k.

We are hiring, and to get anyone good, 40k is about the starting rate for ANYONE with some work experience these days.'

is what I said. No idea where you got the 30-40k bit from; certainly to get someone decent with 2-4 years+ work experience, decent education level, decent performance, about 40k is what is needed.

I work for a Thai company, I am using headhunters, jobsdb, personal connections, this is pretty much what is required.

It isn't a matter of what i think, this is the facts of working here for the last 5 years and helping set up teams in multiple companies; you pay peanuts you can't get anyone good.

I didn't define the household wage, the survey did, using fairly standard criteria for what a household is. I do recall the average household being 3.3 people; which factors in the reality that some people live alone, some people live as a couple, some have kids and a few might yes have 3-4 earners in a household. The number of this type, other than people from upcountry, would be very very low IMHO; the typical family compound is a more Chinese than Thai thing, and much of their income as self employed people would not show up in a household income survey anyhow.

So...in some cases e.g. my 'household' there is 1 person and one income. In another household there are 2 adults, 1 child, one income. And so on.

My own impression is most people would have little idea of what average wages are in Bangkok unless they work in the city itself. That includes both THais and foreigners; have had more than a few conversations...yes you can get a graduate for 8k a month, yes they will come to work, no if you pay them that for more than probation they will not stay and if any good you will lose them for sure.

[Ijustwannateach]

^As an example, I know a Ramkhamhaeng grad (in English) who got a job as a cashier at Bookazine (English language ability required). He started probation at 8K right out of school, went up to 10K after 4 months, and would've gone up again if he hadn't found and moved to a better job for 16K (and more later). Another English-speaking acquaintance (of 21) has jumped through 3 jobs in the last 6 months and doubled his salary.

Heck, somehow I've had some salary improvements myself- I used to have to pay THEM so I could work!! And I had to rent my last cardboard box!

But I don't see so many angry types here? More likely that a number of people who do the tourist circuit meet folks who aren't exactly out of the top drawer, educationally- and that's no shame on them, as Thailand certainly isn't about equal opportunity for folks (especially if they were from the provinces)- and that type does have quite a low ceiling for salary and employment. So the tourists don't meet as many well-educated Thais and they're puzzled when they accidentally run into other educational classes.

For example, one might think some of the legitimate masseurs/masseuses would make a lot more money in physical therapy, say- but then you find out they have a M.3 education and would have to do an M.6 equivalency plus find a way to get through a uni degree plus a speciality course on very low wages before they'd even be qualified to apply. Of course, Thailand loses a valuable human resource by leaving this group behind educationally (because they could attract even more medical tourists or provide an emigrant population that might boost foreign currency holdings through remittances).

In my early working days here I was mystified by having teachers on lower salaries than I was tell me that I should do my shopping at Emporium, etc., like they did- when my salary was nowhere near enough for that- until I realised it was because they assumed I was independently wealthy (as some of them apparently were) or forgot that I didn't benefit from the grey/black economy (as many of them did).

"S"

[Plus]

I think Bendix's workmates (should that be "colleagues" at this level?) are at the top of the tree as others have said, a bit like being a worker in the UK in a top job for a top company and then being placed in London where salaries are again even higher.

Good for them but far from the norm.

Maybe, that's still enough to fill downtown shopping malls. That's what the OP was about, wasn't it?

[steveromagnino]

I think Bendix's workmates (should that be "colleagues" at this level?) are at the top of the tree as others have said, a bit like being a worker in the UK in a top job for a top company and then being placed in London where salaries are again even higher.

Good for them but far from the norm.

Maybe, that's still enough to fill downtown shopping malls. That's what the OP was about, wasn't it?

The luxury malls back in 2003/04 felt that there were at that time 1m Thai people living in Bangkok that could potentially afford to shop at Louis Vuitton, Prada, etc. not everyday, not every week but a few times a year. Household income was 70k a month as the key criteria.

This ignored the grey economy of massage parlour girlies JJ market entrepeurs Jao Por types etc who also have the wealth to shop there, but have non reported income. it also ignored the reality that there are something like a few hundred thousand entrepreurs or more upcountry that oculd also afford to shop - petrol station owners, landlords, business people, police, that sort of thing.

And this ignored the aspect of poorer people 'supported' by affluent people e.g. the stereotypical farmer's daughter from Chiang Rai who sings karaoke, being taken to Hermes by her 'father like figure' to buy a few things for looking nice and a leg opening later on.

At that time the research did suggest a likelihood of over supply with the opening of Paragon; and the research has since been shown to be a little out; the economy grew fast enough to absorb Paragon, but not enough to absorb the upmarket rejig of CentralWorld nor the unexpected new J Avenue suburban style developments and the emergence of Sara and other high street fashion at downtown prices phenomena.

So.... yes there is enough LOCAL trafffic to keep these malls running....just. But they are also developed for tourists as well. But luxury products and Paragon, CW and Gaysorn and the like, they don't care much about white tourists; luxury product malls are aimed at middle eastern, Japanese, Indian and Chinese for the most part. We all know that most white people don't buy luxury products anyway and if they do they tend to buy in the cheaper places; for the countries listed above, Thailand is one of the cheaper options; for someone from France it is not.

I just want to teach I think captures it in a nutshell; if you don't mix with the 1m who can afford this style of shopping, then it seems amazing that anyone can. Especially upcountry where it is quite poor.

[mellow1]

I think the issue for many of the jealous/bitter folks is that they are part of the burned bridges/stuck here brigade. It's not so easy to just go back home and 'earn.' Many of these guys/gals are older, or younger and for some reason decided to skip out on school and/or college, no longer have homes to go "home" to, some are escaping from alimony and child support (and then they pair up with the exact same kind of spouse here... only with a por 3 education), the variations are endless. Then they find out that they aren't allowed to work in hundreds of professions and/or amass property, their spouses expect them (or worse yet, they put unrealistic expectations upon themselves) to find a way to keep up with the Sathienthais anyway. It's totally understandable why a lot of folks appear slightly overheated.

Any alimony or child support payments will be automatically deducted from any pension etc.. a Farang may have coming. There is no escape.

[Heng]

I think the issue for many of the jealous/bitter folks is that they are part of the burned bridges/stuck here brigade. It's not so easy to just go back home and 'earn.' Many of these guys/gals are older, or younger and for some reason decided to skip out on school and/or college, no longer have homes to go "home" to, some are escaping from alimony and child support (and then they pair up with the exact same kind of spouse here... only with a por 3 education), the variations are endless. Then they find out that they aren't allowed to work in hundreds of professions and/or amass property, their spouses expect them (or worse yet, they put unrealistic expectations upon themselves) to find a way to keep up with the Sathienthais anyway. It's totally understandable why a lot of folks appear slightly overheated.

Any alimony or child support payments will be automatically deducted from any pension etc.. a Farang may have coming. There is no escape.

Not for people who abandon their jobs and don't even qualify for their pensions in the first place, for folks who don't have enough work credits to ever receive social security, run off before the courts ever get around to ordering anything, etc.

[mellow1]

I think the issue for many of the jealous/bitter folks is that they are part of the burned bridges/stuck here brigade. It's not so easy to just go back home and 'earn.' Many of these guys/gals are older, or younger and for some reason decided to skip out on school and/or college, no longer have homes to go "home" to, some are escaping from alimony and child support (and then they pair up with the exact same kind of spouse here... only with a por 3 education), the variations are endless. Then they find out that they aren't allowed to work in hundreds of professions and/or amass property, their spouses expect them (or worse yet, they put unrealistic expectations upon themselves) to find a way to keep up with the Sathienthais anyway. It's totally understandable why a lot of folks appear slightly overheated.

Any alimony or child support payments will be automatically deducted from any pension etc.. a Farang may have coming. There is no escape.

Not for people who abandon their jobs and don't even qualify for their pensions in the first place, for folks who don't have enough work credits to ever receive social security, run off before the courts ever get around to ordering anything, etc.

They wont be able to show income needed to live here then.

[steveromagnino]

They wont be able to show income needed to live here then.

Presumably these are the good folks trucking in and out every 30 days.....ah yes the mainstay of the Thai economy, all those transients with their Chang beer singlets and their folkish charm.

[Prakanong]

"So.... yes there is enough LOCAL trafffic to keep these malls running....just. But they are also developed for tourists as well. But luxury products and Paragon, CW and Gaysorn and the like, they don't care much about white tourists; luxury product malls are aimed at middle eastern, Japanese, Indian and Chinese for the most part. We all know that most white people don't buy luxury products anyway and if they do they tend to buy in the cheaper places; for the countries listed above, Thailand is one of the cheaper options; for someone from France it is not."

So true - I am a shopping tart and I never see other single white guy's in Mulberry, Boss etc unless they are gay

As for France - that is where my Thai colleagues buy their LV - I was told the price difference but forget now - they make day trips from Brussels when visiting our plant there????

[Heng]

I think the issue for many of the jealous/bitter folks is that they are part of the burned bridges/stuck here brigade. It's not so easy to just go back home and 'earn.' Many of these guys/gals are older, or younger and for some reason decided to skip out on school and/or college, no longer have homes to go "home" to, some are escaping from alimony and child support (and then they pair up with the exact same kind of spouse here... only with a por 3 education), the variations are endless. Then they find out that they aren't allowed to work in hundreds of professions and/or amass property, their spouses expect them (or worse yet, they put unrealistic expectations upon themselves) to find a way to keep up with the Sathienthais anyway. It's totally understandable why a lot of folks appear slightly overheated.

Any alimony or child support payments will be automatically deducted from any pension etc.. a Farang may have coming. There is no escape.

Not for people who abandon their jobs and don't even qualify for their pensions in the first place, for folks who don't have enough work credits to ever receive social security, run off before the courts ever get around to ordering anything, etc.

They wont be able to show income needed to live here then.

Some are visa runners as Steve mentioned. Some resent having to earn and make ends meet under the radar.

Anyway, that's just another reason to be bitter.

[steveromagnino]

So true - I am a shopping tart and I never see other single white guy's in Mulberry, Boss etc unless they are gay

As for France - that is where my Thai colleagues buy their LV - I was told the price difference but forget now - they make day trips from Brussels when visiting our plant there????

Birds of the feather mate ;-)

LV tends to be about 10% lower in France for non leather goods and between 10-30% lower for certain leather good lines. For a foreigner, with the VAT refund that makes LV only a few percent higher, but for Thais, it becomes cost effective to save that.

Hence the massive restrictions on how many items a person can buy.

With significant currency changes, sometimes luxury goods are too slow to keep track; right now the American luxury brands, if there is such a thing, Coach etc - are verging on mass market European prices.

[mellow1]

I think the issue for many of the jealous/bitter folks is that they are part of the burned bridges/stuck here brigade. It's not so easy to just go back home and 'earn.' Many of these guys/gals are older, or younger and for some reason decided to skip out on school and/or college, no longer have homes to go "home" to, some are escaping from alimony and child support (and then they pair up with the exact same kind of spouse here... only with a por 3 education), the variations are endless. Then they find out that they aren't allowed to work in hundreds of professions and/or amass property, their spouses expect them (or worse yet, they put unrealistic expectations upon themselves) to find a way to keep up with the Sathienthais anyway. It's totally understandable why a lot of folks appear slightly overheated.

Any alimony or child support payments will be automatically deducted from any pension etc.. a Farang may have coming. There is no escape.

Not for people who abandon their jobs and don't even qualify for their pensions in the first place, for folks who don't have enough work credits to ever receive social security, run off before the courts ever get around to ordering anything, etc.

They wont be able to show income needed to live here then.

Some are visa runners as Steve mentioned. Some resent having to earn and make ends meet under the radar.

Anyway, that's just another reason to be bitter.

Let them be bitter, they are only hurting themselves.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Very true!

[mellow1]

The Farangs around here ( Issan ), for the most part are retired people, or people setting up for retirement. There is a maybe a 5% not in this group. I stop in at a local cafe, a couple of times a week and these people don't seem bitter or jealous to me. I don't know if they are rich or not but they seem to be basically a happy and content bunch. I don't think any care about who shops where, and what they buy. Maybe they talk about it when I'm not there, but I doubt that. I can't even imagine why they would care.

[Heng]

I hear ya. In real life, I rarely hear or see anyone who is bitter either, of any nationality. When I browse web forums such as these though, they are certainly around. Given, some of the bitter/jealous folks aren't even in Thailand, but those who have given up, left by choice, or were forced back to their homelands by untenable circumstances.... but for some reason do continue to hold a grudge against Thailand, Thais, and foreign expats who continue to prosper here.

[steveromagnino]

.....When I browse web forums such as these though, they are certainly around.....

Really?

I had never noticed any disgruntled farang on TV.

I always feel guys like Emperor Tud, Old Asia Hand and Padthaiguy are either just winding us up or having a bit of a laugh.

[NewtoBKK]

hi guys,

having started to actually live here, i am beginning to wonder the same thing too... perhaps it's just the misconceptions that i have on the income levels (and perpetuated to some extent by some locals i have met), but i too wonder how to reconcile the disparity in the cost of living and the income levels of most locals (and the expats on "local plus" packages)!!!

just as examples based on our own experiences thus far:

1. shopping: prices of imported goods are similar to or higher than those in SG and HK (and perhaps some other Asian countries, eg. TW or MY)

2. groceries: tried shopping at carrefour, tops and tesco. with the exception of some local produce (eg. vegetables), the price of most groceries (eg. grapes, sauces, salmon, and even some local fruit produce like durians, rose apples, pomeloes, pineapples, etc...) are again similar to or higher than those in the other Asian countries

3. phone, internet and cable tv: again, either similarly priced or higher

4. mrt, bts and cars: again, either similarly priced or higher

5. housing: finally, something that is somewhat lower (but offset to a large extent by the higher taxes you have to pay in TH)

6. food and leisure: mixed bag, but i think it is generally lower here (again, except for imported stuff like books!)

7. taxes: definitely higher than SG and HK!! somewhat the same as TW, and CN

on balance, it would seem, at least to me, that you would need to have income levels similar to that of SG and HK to have a similar (local equivalent) lifestyle here

am i wrong (because i haven't lived here long enough to uncover the secrets to lower costs) or am i right in my snap (and uninvestigated) judgement? i hope it is the former!!

[mellow1]

^ Don't buy imported stuff, eat Thai food, etc...