Dharma Army

[Gohonzon]

Who are the monks and nuns who led the rally to oust Thaskin yesterday - are they the Santi Asok movement and are the dubiously (?) named 'Dharma Army' of the same?

And could anyone please elaborate on what the Santi Asok movement is. Ta

Thaskin - ork pai, bye the way

[cdnvic]

If this is true they should be staying out of politics.

cv

[camerata]

The monks and nuns are from the Santi Asoke sect, whose spiritual leader is Phra Bodhirak. I think it is Chamlong Srimuang who calls them the Dharma Army. He seems to be a kind of secular leader for the sect.

See The Man Behind Santi Asoke and Photirak May Have The Last Laugh for more info on the sect leader. Both articles are by Sanitsuda Ekachai.

[ColPyat]

Funny sort of Buddhists who now come out to demonstrate against the "sale of the country", while supporting Thaksin during the drugwar when several thousand Thais were summarily executed.

Not though as bad as Luang Por Khun and some other monks who have publicly argued during those days even on TV that killing drug dealers won't draw any negative kharmic consequences.

Edited February 27, 2006 by ColPyat

[sabaijai]

This article is a couple of days old.

Thailand: Dharma Army first to arrive at rally

By ThaiDay, February 26, 2006

Bangkok, Thailand -- The “Dharma Army” of the Santi Asoke sect were gearing up this morning for a possible marathon protest at Bangkok’s Sanam Luang, with thousands of its members ready to demand the resignation of Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Wearing straw hats and dark blue outfits, the first few hundred members of the Buddhist sect arrived around 10am in a convoy of trucks and buses, where they began unloading piles of luggage, from blankets and mats to cooking-gas tanks and sleeping bags.

They said they were here for the duration and vowed to stay for “as long as it takes” to oust the embattled premier.

“We want Thaksin out because everything he has done shows he does not respect the people and it’s time for him to go,” said Somsak, a man in his 40s from Ubon Ratchanthani, a province in the country’s impoverished Northeast.

“[Thaksin] says since he took power we aren’t poor. He should just open his eyes and look around. He claims to serve the poor but they’re the ones he is hurting.”

Santi Asoke has chastised Thaksin for what it says has been immoral behavior throughout his five years in power. The Dharma Army has been bolstered by last week’s decision by Thaksin’s mentor Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang to join the protest, which he says could attract more than 100,000.

His followers think the number may even be greater.

“There could be 200,000, even more than that,” said another Santi Asoke member. “And there are millions more at home who want Thaksin to go.”

About 400 police had were already in place to oversee the arrival of the protestors. The mood was relaxed yesterday morning.

Like at recent anti-Thaksin protests, the police were unarmed, and more were due to arrive later. “There should be at least 4,000 policemen,” said one officer, “but we don’t expect any trouble.”

[Gohonzon]

Thanks for the replies , clarifiction and articles. Phra Bhodhirak and Santi Asoke seem prety much ok in some ways - at least to me.

I have to disagree with 'cdnvic' about keping out of politics. But there again, for me engaged Theravadans elicit some admiration and sympathy. I can remember an 'apolitical' monk ( I'm sure that he would define himself as being such ) justifying the death penalty in Thailand on BBC TV not so long ago.

Wearing a saffron or brownish robe does not mean that we/they are not affected by the society in which we/they live - to suggest otherwise is being somewhat nihilistic I feel.

And not to speak out against obvious injustices, irresponsible greed and downright abuses of civil liberties , such as Khun Thaskin has been engaged in over a period of years, is to attempt to deny something which can be transformed into enlightened wisdom and will lead to a nobler state of life.

Thus spoke a Mahayanan

Edited February 28, 2006 by Gohonzon

[Plus]

Most members of Santi Asoke sect living in that area are laymen - they can engage in politics just like anyone else.

[thaibebop]

Can anyone here help me learn more about the Dharma Army of the Santi Asoke sect in Thailand? How are they viewed? What is their level of influence? How large are they as a group?

Thanks,

Thaibebop

[Austhaied]

Can anyone here help me learn more about the Dharma Army of the Santi Asoke sect in Thailand? How are they viewed? What is their level of influence? How large are they as a group?

Thanks,

Thaibebop

Good question...

Don't know myself though.

Perhaps this may help. http://www.bunniyom.com/new.insight5.html

[clausewitz]

I view tham as a cult, if that helps.

[camerata]

Although Dharma Army members are from the Santi Asoke sect, their leader is Chamlong Srimuang. He was able to mobilize a thousand of them during PAD rallies. Obviously they had some influence in the anti-Thaksin rallies because they were seen as morally upright and disciplined, but it's Chamlong himself who has the real influence. He was instrumental in blocking a liquor company from listing on the Thai stock market a year or two ago.

[Plus]

They are not reconginsed by legitimate Thai buddists, much in the same way as Pope denounces heretics.

They are prohibited by law from wearing monks robes, for example.

I don't remember the exact cause of the disagreement, but they appear far more serious about their practices than your regular Thai Buddhist (doesn't say much given the state of Thai Buddhism).

It's a small community and they seem to be self-sufficient and genuinely happy .

[thaibebop]

It is because they are politically active that other monks don't recognize them?

It would seem to me that much of what they are doing and have done are all good things. I father-in-law gave me one of their publications back before Thaksin's fall and they spoke about a lot of community work, that can't be bad, can it?

[jdinasia]

They wear monk's robes. They just wear brown. They voluntarily left the Thai Sangha some years back (very likely just before they were kicked out). They ordain women as monks. They are vegetarians. They tend to be activists.

I spent some time at Pathom Asoke and found it just a bit offputting. They had one television and whenever it was on there was a monk doing a voice over about the morals etc of what was happening on screen. Their communal PA system made me think of what it would be like living in a re-education center. However, their model of communal living was impressive and the people there seemed happy.

Further --- and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong--- the leader proclaimed himself fully enlightened (a no no in Buddhism) and announced the coming day he would die.

Edited March 19, 2008 by jdinasia

[thaibebop]

They wear monk's robes. They just wear brown. They voluntarily left the Thai Sangha some years back (very likely just before they were kicked out). They ordain women as monks. They are vegetarians. They tend to be activists.

I spent some time at Pathom Asoke and found it just a bit offputting. They had one television and whenever it was on there was a monk doing a voice over about the morals etc of what was happening on screen. Their communal PA system made me think of what it would be like living in a re-education center. However, their model of communal living was impressive and the people there seemed happy.

Further --- and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong--- the leader proclaimed himself fully enlightened (a no no in Buddhism) and announced the coming day he would die.

I see how some of these things would be off putting, but I support Nuns, women should be able to practice the Dharma. I see nothing wrong with vegetarians or activists. I would be concerned about someone claiming to be a Buddha, but I would want to look closer at their actions before I condemn all around.

[jdinasia]

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

[thaibebop]

When asked by a farang woman in our class trip there. An ordained nun answered this question "So, even an ordained nun cannot attain full enlightenment?" thusly: ""Certainly she can, she need only die, come back as a man and become a monk" .....

But I am certainly not condemning them as I am in favor of activism and monks being vegetarians etc .. I am just very wary of that group of believers.

I did love their sesame candy though!

I thought the Buddha was in favor of female enlightenment? Are there other groups of monks that are activist in nature bit maybe are not so radical?

[jdinasia]

There are many many activist monks in Thailand and all over the world. In Thailand there are scads of activist monks working for education reform, the environment, AIDS .. etc

[sabaijai]

They wear monk's robes. They just wear brown. They voluntarily left the Thai Sangha some years back (very likely just before they were kicked out). They ordain women as monks. They are vegetarians. They tend to be activists.

I spent some time at Pathom Asoke and found it just a bit offputting. They had one television and whenever it was on there was a monk doing a voice over about the morals etc of what was happening on screen. Their communal PA system made me think of what it would be like living in a re-education center. However, their model of communal living was impressive and the people there seemed happy.

Further --- and anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong--- the leader proclaimed himself fully enlightened (a no no in Buddhism) and announced the coming day he would die.

Interesting. I attended a Santi Asoke lecture on vegetarianism in Chiang Mai a few years ago. The Santi Asoke mae chee twisted verses from the Suttas to make it looks as if the Tipitaka mandated vegetarian diet for all (laypeople as well as monks), which reminded me of the way Christian foundationalists reinterpret Biblical verses to serve their own ends.

The robes they wear are not monk's robes. In fact their titles - include Bodhirak's - are 'samanera', i.e., 'novice'.

[camerata]

It is because they are politically active that other monks don't recognize them?

It's because they were expelled from the Sangha. Depending on which source you go to, the real reason for this was the sect's connection with Chamlong and his rising political power at the time, or the fact that Phra Photirak had threatened to shake up the Sangha from within.

For more info see Two Paths to Revivalism, The Man Behind Santi Asoke, and Photirak May Have The Last Laugh.

[Plus]

I only know them from their Santi Asoke food court in Navamin. Laymen there often wear blue, there are no PA speakers or televisions, and people just go on with their daily lives like anywhere else in Bangkok - shops, noodle stalls, little market, minus meat and smoking or drinking.

[jdinasia]

From a Webster Uni trip to Pathom Asoke

a senior monk at Pathom Asoke (and Ajarn ted .. one of the few excellent professors at Webster at that time)

Edited March 20, 2008 by jdinasia

[jdinasia]

ordained nun from Pathom Asoke

another monk from that same trip

students from the temple school

[jdinasia]

ih and Camerata -- I think you will find that Santi Asoke pulled out of the Thai Sangha, not were expelled. (They most assuredly would have been at some point though)

[thaibebop]

It is because they are politically active that other monks don't recognize them?

It's because they were expelled from the Sangha. Depending on which source you go to, the real reason for this was the sect's connection with Chamlong and his rising political power at the time, or the fact that Phra Photirak had threatened to shake up the Sangha from within.

For more info see Two Paths to Revivalism, The Man Behind Santi Asoke, and Photirak May Have The Last Laugh.

Great links, it will take me a little awhile to get through them, then I will know a little more. So far it seems most I have spoken to do not hold them in high regard, I am right in thinking this? I see why some would be worried about fundamentalism, but there does seem to be a raise in Buddhist fundamentalism all over Asia, and outside Sri Lanka, I do not know of violence involved. So, would a more hardcore Buddhism in Thailand help keep Buddhism alive and aspects of Thai culture alive as well? Would such a hardline hurt Thailand in anyway? How political should Theravadan monks be?

[Plus]

I'm not sure who are you calling fundamentalists? Mainstream monks who can't accept Santi Asoke in their community, or Santi-Asoke themselves for being too strict and disciplinarian.

SA monks are not politically active, btw, it was their laymen who took part in daily protests, and mostly due to Chamlong's activism (who is not their spiritual leader).

The rest of Thai monks are not politically active at all - they don't have time between selling amulets and counting donations, though once in a while someone would come up with political comments - like killing communists or drug dealers is not a sin.

Whatever they do, if they get in the news, it's usually for all the wrong reasons.

[camerata]

ih and Camerata -- I think you will find that Santi Asoke pulled out of the Thai Sangha, not were expelled. (They most assuredly would have been at some point though)

What actually happened seems to be that Photirak declared independence from the Ecclesiastical Council in 1975 and started ordaining his own monks and nuns. By the time he was disrobed in 1989, his sect consisted of ordained members of the Sangha, monastics ordained by him, and lay people. The mainstream-ordained monks were not disrobed, but his own monastics were prosecuted for impersonating monastics, i.e. they were not considered members of the Sangha at all. Apparently, Photirak was then prosecuted for disobeying the Sangha Council's defrocking order.

From one of the articles mentioned above:

On 19 June 1989 Bodhiraksa was arrested by the police and taken into custody. The Ministry of the Interior announced that all TV coverage of the detention was banned and that TV stations breaking the rule would simply be closed down. Press coverage was also restricted (Far Eastern 1989/7/6).

Bodhiraksa was denied bail and had to stay overnight in custody. His disciples and followers started to gather outside the building together with the press and TV cameras. The first night he appeared on the balcony to greet his followers in a white robe. This caused shock and confusion amongst the followers, as white indicates a layman's status. Bodhiraksa stayed in custody for two nights, and was visited by a delegation of senior monks from the Council of Elders, who once more tried to convince him to defrock. Bodhiraksa was finally released on bail for 600,000 baht (appr. USD 20,000).

In August, the police ordered all Asoke monks and nuns to gather in the Santi Asoke temple for detention. The next day the police arrested 106 monks and nuns and transported them to the Bangkhen police station. 26 monks were released, because they had originally been ordained within the mainstream. The rest, 60 monks and 20 nuns, had been ordained by Bodhiraksa and were thus regarded as "illegally wearing traditional Buddhist robes". The monks and nuns stayed in police custody for one night, and they were followed by some 200 lay supporters, who waited for them outside. The day after the whole group was released on bail for 200,000 baht. It was also officially announced that they would face one year in jail or a 2,000 baht fine if the court found them guilty of "imitating orthodox monks' dress".

[jdinasia]

I think that is when they switched to the Brown robes

[thaibebop]

The more I learn about them the more I think outside of a few issues they would seem to be something good for Thailand. I believe the Thai state should stay liberal in nature but who better to attack corruption and social ills then monks and nuns?

[jdinasia]

Thaibebop --- there are many issues with the official Thai Sangha (from the leadership down) and the State and religion are intertwined here in a massive way. The issues surrounding Santhi Asoke are various but the major one in my mind is limited to the leadership.

I applaud the activism and grassroots reform they espouse ... just not the bosses. I have actually spent some nights in their compounds and they still scare me and attract me at the same time!