Udon Thani dentist

[Scott]

The Director of our school asked me to contact a substantial number of our teachers and have them supply them with transcripts from their University. It seems that someone feels this is the only way to assure that the degree is real. As of about 1 1/2 years ago, we have been verifying all the degrees, in writing from the University, so this is kind of a shock. Has anyone else run into this situation? Anyone have any insight as to what might be happening?

[Ijustwannateach]

This whole degree/Thai culture course/Thai teachers' license thing seems very arbitrary and very individually handled from one school to another. No one seems to be able to pin down just what the rules are; it seems dependent on who is handling the matter for each school and which immigration official they are dealing with.

To answer the question personally: no, haven't seen any sign of this where I am. But, in speculating what may be going on at your place:

1. Maybe the director is looking specifically for ways to attack specific teachers

2. Maybe the director has been given a list by the police (after they raided their own illegal degree-copying agencies) of those teachers that they already know have fake degrees

3. Maybe the director is being asked to defend the presence of certain teachers at your school and needs ammunition

4. Maybe these degrees are the ones from before 1.5 years ago and so were never verified?

5. Maybe the director has reason to suspect certain persons of falsehood and wants to catch them out through some inconsistency

6. Maybe an incompetent secretary simply lost the verification information which they already should have had

There are endless possibilities here, including the possibility that documents were deliberately lost or misplaced by someone to cause trouble for someone else, possibly but not necessarily including specific teachers.

"S"

[clausewitz]

It is normal hiring pratice to have the university mail transcripts. Thailand is notorious for attracting fraudsters with fake degrees.

[TerryLH]

"It is normal hiring pratice to have the university mail transcripts."

Where is that, because that's certainly not the norm in Thailand?

[culicine]

I also think some countries have privacy laws regarding this. I've never been asked to have my degrees verified. Miore than likely, if it was ever enforced, the teacher in question would have to do it themselves. I don't think schools / MoE could get his information from our universities.

[Scott]

Thanks for the responses. Just to clarify a few points, it's not coming from the Director because it is easy enough to get rid of teachers--simply don't renew their contract. Secondly a number of the teachers have had their degrees verified--which, by the way, is a matter of public record and can be done without permission from the person. Finally, one is a licensed teacher in his own country, both license and degree were verified.

This is coming from the MOE, as I understand it, but just to make things more interesting, they wouldn't accept anyone with a Bachelor of Science either, only teacher's who had a Bachelor of Arts! Immigration up to now has been no problem for us, if the papers are in order everything goes pretty smoothly and even if something is missing, they have been pretty lenient.

This may be related to a new program that's being started, but it covers a wide range of teachers, including some who are very new and some who have been here for a while. The school has a pretty good track record with both immigration and MOE about degrees etc. and the MOE makes periodic visits to the school, which generally go pretty well and what suggestions they give are generally adhered to.

I will be trying to get more clarification on what seems to be going on, but right now people might want to be ready for the 'next hoop' to jump through.

[haltes]

Sorry but in England you can't get the information without the consent of the person in question. This is covered under the Data Protection Act 1998. I remember I had to sign a waiver authorizing the institution to contact any universities.

Civil Rights in the UK are also covered under the Human Rights Act 1998: Article 8: Right to Respect for Private and Family Life: i.e. right to privacy

[twschw]

Sorry again. This is from the University of Texas at Austin website:

Transcripts

A transcript is a comprehensive record of your academic progress, including transfer courses, credit earned by exam, and earned degrees.

Your name appears on your transcript as it appears on your University record. Official transcripts include the University seal and the signature of the registrar.

Student academic records are classified as confidential and may be released only with the student's written authorization and signature, in accordance with the Public Information Act and the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974.

[Prakanong]

It is normal hiring pratice to have the university mail transcripts. Thailand is notorious for attracting fraudsters with fake degrees.

I have my original documents but if its results transcripts I have none and as far as I know not avaialble from a UK Uni.

I do not work in Thailand and not in teaching but I know its been checked what I have for certain visa's but not transcripts unless I do not understand what they are

[Prakanong]

Sorry again. This is from the University of Texas at Austin website:

Transcripts

A transcript is a comprehensive record of your academic progress, including transfer courses, credit earned by exam, and earned degrees.

Your name appears on your transcript as it appears on your University record. Official transcripts include the University seal and the signature of the registrar.

Student academic records are classified as confidential and may be released only with the student's written authorization and signature, in accordance with the Public Information Act and the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974.

It what I thought - its different in the UK - or at least when I was in Uni there

You can check my degree and class of degree but no marks etc

[Norrad]

This is coming from the MOE, as I understand it, but just to make things more interesting, they wouldn't accept anyone with a Bachelor of Science either, only teacher's who had a Bachelor of Arts! Immigration up to now has been no problem for us, if the papers are in order everything goes pretty smoothly and even if something is missing, they have been pretty lenient.

That's going to hurt quite a few teachers that I know. Most already have to jump through the new culture course and teachers council license issues. That would probably push many of them to leave.

[PeaceBlondie]

This is coming from the MOE, as I understand it, but just to make things more interesting, they wouldn't accept anyone with a Bachelor of Science either, only teacher's who had a Bachelor of Arts! Immigration up to now has been no problem for us, if the papers are in order everything goes pretty smoothly and even if something is missing, they have been pretty lenient.

That's going to hurt quite a few teachers that I know. Most already have to jump through the new culture course and teachers council license issues. That would probably push many of them to leave.

How many MoE officials know how to read the 4,598 kinds of transcripts issued by 8,943 universities? If you handed them my sealed transcripts on a silver platter, I seriously doubt they could interpret them. I graduated when transcripts were copied or imprinted on xerox paper that was purchased by Wilma Flintstone. Can they distinguish my upper level course in Old Testament Theology from the only education course I took, Survey of Physical Education? Okay, even an incompetemt bureaucrat might match the statement on the transcript, when I was awarded my BA, with the degree itself, except the uni changed its name three times after I graduated.

I do not think I will have to prove all this in order to get a work permit and MoE permission to teach in Chiang Mai. But if it includes the Thai Culture and Etincs course for more than 3,000 baht out of my pocket, or a far more expensive semi-graduate degree in education as the Thais understand it, then they neither want me, nor will they get me.

[clausewitz]

It is normal hiring pratice to have the university mail transcripts. Thailand is notorious for attracting fraudsters with fake degrees.

I have my original documents but if its results transcripts I have none and as far as I know not avaialble from a UK Uni.

I do not work in Thailand and not in teaching but I know its been checked what I have for certain visa's but not transcripts unless I do not understand what they are

You write to your old university, pay them a fee and they will mail the transcipts, nicely sealed in an envelope, to your place of employment, or future employer. The fact that it comes directly from the university proves that it was not forged and your employer can then be certain he has a bona fide graduate, not some criminal forger.

Some employers may accept the transcipts if you give them personally but this is still leaving open the possiblity of forgery coming in. And with Thialand attracting so many criminals it is really an inferior practice.

[mopenyang]

This is coming from the MOE, as I understand it, but just to make things more interesting, they wouldn't accept anyone with a Bachelor of Science either, only teacher's who had a Bachelor of Arts! Immigration up to now has been no problem for us, if the papers are in order everything goes pretty smoothly and even if something is missing, they have been pretty lenient.

That's going to hurt quite a few teachers that I know. Most already have to jump through the new culture course and teachers council license issues. That would probably push many of them to leave.

How many MoE officials know how to read the 4,598 kinds of transcripts issued by 8,943 universities? If you handed them my sealed transcripts on a silver platter, I seriously doubt they could interpret them. I graduated when transcripts were copied or imprinted on xerox paper that was purchased by Wilma Flintstone. Can they distinguish my upper level course in Old Testament Theology from the only education course I took, Survey of Physical Education? Okay, even an incompetemt bureaucrat might match the statement on the transcript, when I was awarded my BA, with the degree itself, except the uni changed its name three times after I graduated.

I do not think I will have to prove all this in order to get a work permit and MoE permission to teach in Chiang Mai. But if it includes the Thai Culture and Etincs course for more than 3,000 baht out of my pocket, or a far more expensive semi-graduate degree in education as the Thais understand it, then they neither want me, nor will they get me.

I doubt they are going to be interested at all in analyzing individual transcripts. They will only be interested in having them as part of a teacher's file in further testimony as to the legitimacy of any degree claimed. It's been coming for a long time and not unheard of in other nations and even in this part of the world, i.e., Korea. If it were to be done correctly, they would need to have official transcripts sent directly from the university to MoE, Immigration, etc. The teacher would commence the process by requesting the transcript from his or her university be sent directly to the government agency requiring it.

[PeaceBlondie]

From mopenyang's post directly above...."If it were to be done correctly,..." Generally, I have serious doubts about most offices doing it correctly.

[Scott]

The transcrip, in most countries would, in deed, be confidential and could only be released with the consent of the former student. The verification of the degree is a public record and who graduated and when is often published in the newspapers. Teacher's coming from the US are easy to verify, there is a national clearinghouse for this information and it is very fast. I recently verified a degree in about 24 hours. Sent the information and next time I checked the email it was there. It costs around 200 Baht.

I am just hoping that we aren't going to have to verify degrees and get transcripts. I would think that most places would want the request for a transcript in writing and there would be a cost. Since most of this would be done by snail mail, to be accurate, would take a long time.

I talked to our administrative assistant who handles this stuff and she thinks it's related to our starting a new program, but that said, she doesn't know why the request was made for specific teachers who aren't in that program. All the new teachers for the program will have to have their transcripts.

At this point, I don't know if this is going to be widespread. It may be related to the office we have and maybe even an overzealous officer at the office. I will try to keep people posted. Also, I appreciate the input and experiences others may know of or have heard others having.

[otherstuff1957]

Scott, are you serious about them accepting BA's but not BS's?

What about Science Teachers in EP programs? I know that EP Depts and Bilingual Schools are desperate for Science and Mathematics teachers and I have been asked to teach Science or Elementary Math next year, in addition to some English classes, BECAUSE I have a BS!

[Prakanong]

It is normal hiring pratice to have the university mail transcripts. Thailand is notorious for attracting fraudsters with fake degrees.

I have my original documents but if its results transcripts I have none and as far as I know not avaialble from a UK Uni.

I do not work in Thailand and not in teaching but I know its been checked what I have for certain visa's but not transcripts unless I do not understand what they are

You write to your old university, pay them a fee and they will mail the transcipts, nicely sealed in an envelope, to your place of employment, or future employer. The fact that it comes directly from the university proves that it was not forged and your employer can then be certain he has a bona fide graduate, not some criminal forger.

Some employers may accept the transcipts if you give them personally but this is still leaving open the possiblity of forgery coming in. And with Thialand attracting so many criminals it is really an inferior practice.

I understand what you are saying and I know my company check I have a degree and the grade I have but I do not know my marks etc and I doubt anyone does.

They are paying for my MBA now and trhey just want to know pass fail for each module

[Laughing Gravy]

The MoE do want verification that your degree is genuine. Even with the Freedom of information act and the data protection act from the UK, you can contact most universities and get them to send a confirmation letter, (which is free) stating your degree and teaching qualifications, are genuine.

Also if you want to check that your teacher (prospective employee) degree is genuine, you can e mail or fax the certificate (certainly to the USA and UK) and get verification that way, as I have done this before.

I don't see the big deal really. They are trying to implement a quality check, done very badly though. The people down the immigration and MoE are not the "brightest lamps in the street'. When I last went, I had to tell them that Liverpool had three universities, which sent them into a frenzy, as they didn't realise that. They did ask me could I tell them of more universities in the UK. I sent them in the direction of UCAS.

Also they have had more bosses down there then most departments, where every new boss changes the rules to justify his/hers existence.

[Scott]

The part about accepting BA but not BS degrees is true. The person who said this at the MOE, said you must have a BA to teach English. The administration is trying to explain to them that we have a number of teachers who are not teaching English, per se, but teaching science, math etc. That one I am reasonably sure we will get sorted out.

I don't want to put anyone in a panic, but just let folks know what is happening. Anyone who has a degree can probably get a copy of their transcript. There are a few schools that may have gone out of business or merged with another that make it harder.

I am hoping this is a 'blip' and just someone at the MOE who is being overly pedantic. If it's happening to anyone else, or anywhere else, it could be a trend.

At any rate, I've been told that when hiring, we now must get a copy of the transcript.

[otherstuff1957]

Actually, that would be consistent with something that happened to me a few years ago. About 4 years ago I applied for a Teacher's License and Work Permit. The MOE knocked back the TL application saying that I needed either a BA or a BS & a TEFL Certificate in order to teach English. I went ahead and took a TEFL course and then got a TL & WP without any problems.

[mopenyang]

Actually, that would be consistent with something that happened to me a few years ago. About 4 years ago I applied for a Teacher's License and Work Permit. The MOE knocked back the TL application saying that I needed either a BA or a BS & a TEFL Certificate in order to teach English. I went ahead and took a TEFL course and then got a TL & WP without any problems.

If I understand you correctly then, a BS or MS in Education would still require a TEFL Certificate to teach English but a BA in Geography would not?

Did you happen to ask them where it is written in the Thai MoE regulations or laws that a TEFL Certificate is required?

Edited March 24, 2008 by mopenyang

[otherstuff1957]

^I think they just make it up as they go along!

[Scott]

Otherstuff, how right you are!! As near as I can tell, someone has got a thorn in their a*ss. There is no way that this either makes sense or will hold up, but I guess no one dares get someone upset right now. I don't know how we would find someone with a BA to teach to our advanced math and Physics classes!

Now, to top it all off, they said they only need a copy of the transcript--not an original, certified copy! Like someone who would have a fake degree couldn't get a fake transcript to go with it!

I don't have a big problem with them changing the rules or amending them, but there should be a specific time frame for implementing them. We are now trying to transcripts for people who have worked as teachers for many years, have a valid TL and Work Permit etc. If they said something like "as of June 1 or some date you need...." that would be acceptable. It gives people time.

They have held a tight line on getting the degree verified. I don't know why that isn't sufficient... but then this is Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

Maybe someone at the Ministry lost the paperwork.

[haltes]

Transcripts?????

The real issue is that most Thais who interview don't know enough to test people out at the interview.

IF someone has a sociology degree ask them questions on Weber, Marx, Durkheim, Parsons

If somone says they have a degree in business, ask them questions on merketing mix, core competenices etc

The interviewers are crap and they can't tell if a candidate is genuine in relation to their qualifications.

Get some better educated interviewers and they will be able to rip a false claim to shreds in just a few minutes.

Edited March 30, 2008 by haltes

[PeaceBlondie]

Transcripts?????

The real issue is that most Thais who interview don't know enough to test people out at the interview.

IF someone has a sociology degree ask them questions on Weber, Marx, Durkheim, Parsons

If somone says they have a degree in business, ask them questions on merketing mix, core competenices etc

The interviewers are crap and they can't tell if a candidate is genuine in relation to their qualifications.

Get some better educated interviewers and they will be able to rip a false claim to shreds in just a few minutes.

BEST TEACHING FORUM POST FOR THE MONTH OF MARCH 2008!!

[aussiestyle1983]

It would waste a lot less time if you were just able to log onto the Uni's website with your student number and password and show them your results page, which would indicate not only that you have graduated, but also show a list of your classes and grades. I know not all uni's are the same, but nearly all unis's have a system for student's to log into to view their results. Anyone can obtain an envelope from the uni, put a fake transcript in it, put a address sticker over the previous address and send it to some dodgy Thai school. I'm sorry, but you can easily get your way around having a uni send transcripts if you're a fraud as well. I think loging into your uni's website, which could not be faked, would be a quick, easy, and cheaper way to prove that you are a graduate.

[Ijustwannateach]

Transcripts?????

The real issue is that most Thais who interview don't know enough to test people out at the interview.

IF someone has a sociology degree ask them questions on Weber, Marx, Durkheim, Parsons

If somone says they have a degree in business, ask them questions on merketing mix, core competenices etc

The interviewers are crap and they can't tell if a candidate is genuine in relation to their qualifications.

Get some better educated interviewers and they will be able to rip a false claim to shreds in just a few minutes.

I have to agree with PB- this is the main point. The real responsibility when a school gets landed with a faker, a criminal, or a sociopath lies with the school. They don't examine people well enough, and to be blunt: they often have very few choices about whom to hire- which gets back to the low salaries on offer, and so forth, and so on.

[adjan jb]

Transcripts?????

The real issue is that most Thais who interview don't know enough to test people out at the interview.

IF someone has a sociology degree ask them questions on Weber, Marx, Durkheim, Parsons

If somone says they have a degree in business, ask them questions on merketing mix, core competenices etc

The interviewers are crap and they can't tell if a candidate is genuine in relation to their qualifications.

Get some better educated interviewers and they will be able to rip a false claim to shreds in just a few minutes.

I have to agree with PB- this is the main point. The real responsibility when a school gets landed with a faker, a criminal, or a sociopath lies with the school. They don't examine people well enough, and to be blunt: they often have very few choices about whom to hire- which gets back to the low salaries on offer, and so forth, and so on.

At the French dpt where I used to teach, The Thai candidates are interviewed in... Thai. Four years ago they hired a teacher who claimed to have a Master's degree from Chula or Thammasat (can't remember) but didn't know more than a hundred French words. During the three years or so we "worked together" she did everything she could to avoid meeting me.

Fakers, criminals and sociopaths are just the tip of the iceberg, underwater are the inepts.