Thais Scramble To Allay Tourist Fears After Recent Assaults

[Thai at Heart]

.....edit....that topless and nud_e bathing are illegal. ...

Thanx, my point!

nud_e yes. Topless, has no distinct rule that I can find.

She was neither,

[ade100]

Has this really got anything to do with Thai culture or nudity? I remember when I lived in the UK (supposedly a very liberal, equalitarian country) being shocked by rape statistics. It was something like 1 in 4 women would be a survivor of a sexual assault. So the liberal, equalitarian attitudes did not seem to stop the minority of deranged individuals from committing crimes. Neither did the almost continual sub-zero temperatures and so lack of nudity.

Sh!t...1 in 4 Brits raping innocent women? A minority? 25% of the male population sexually assaulting? Methinks you read (past tense) wrong.

Continual Sub-Zero temperatures? http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/200.../averages1.html

Take a look at the UK annual average low temp at 6 degrees.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story..eh?

Sorry if I am not making point clearly:

1 25% of women suffering sexual assault does not mean 25% of men commit these crimes. It is possible for one man to commit more than one crime. The point I am making is that it is not just Thailand where murder and rape occurs. Most countries of the world witness these crimes.

2 There has been a lot of debate above about the relationship between nudity and sexual crime. My point is that the UK has a much colder climate than Thailand, women do not normally walk around in swim suits yet crime against women is still appallingly high.

[ade100]

Has this really got anything to do with Thai culture or nudity? I remember when I lived in the UK (supposedly a very liberal, equalitarian country) being shocked by rape statistics. It was something like 1 in 4 women would be a survivor of a sexual assault. So the liberal, equalitarian attitudes did not seem to stop the minority of deranged individuals from committing crimes. Neither did the almost continual sub-zero temperatures and so lack of nudity.

Sh!t...1 in 4 Brits raping innocent women? A minority? 25% of the male population sexually assaulting? Methinks you read (past tense) wrong.

I wish I did "read wrong" but I am afraid I didn't:

"1 in 4 women have experienced rape or attempted rape" Painter, 1991

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/stats.html

[Thai at Heart]

Has this really got anything to do with Thai culture or nudity? I remember when I lived in the UK (supposedly a very liberal, equalitarian country) being shocked by rape statistics. It was something like 1 in 4 women would be a survivor of a sexual assault. So the liberal, equalitarian attitudes did not seem to stop the minority of deranged individuals from committing crimes. Neither did the almost continual sub-zero temperatures and so lack of nudity.

Sh!t...1 in 4 Brits raping innocent women? A minority? 25% of the male population sexually assaulting? Methinks you read (past tense) wrong.

I wish I did "read wrong" but I am afraid I didn't:

"1 in 4 women have experienced rape or attempted rape" Painter, 1991

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/stats.html

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/HOFindings159.pdf

must be looking at a different set of stats.

[jts-khorat]

i dont recall seeing that the victim of this crime was naked on the beach, so why does this keep on coming up?

from the original report of the Phuket Gazette; according to Tah Chat Chai Police Deputy Superintendent Lt Col Payongsak Petchrod and the girlfriend of the victim, she #was# actually sunbathing topless at the time.

Hanna Charlotta was staying at Mai Khao Beach Bungalow resort with Emma Storman, who found Hanna’s body about 300 meters from the resort.

Tah Chat Chai Police Deputy Superintendent Lt Col Payongsak Petchrod told the Gazette, “The place where the body was found is hard to see and very quiet. There is a mound there and behind that is thick with trees. There are no restaurants near there, and no people.”

Emma told police that she did not see anyone in the area around the time of the murder, Lt Col Payongsak said. “Emma left the resort to buy some water and she told Hanna that she will join her sunbathing later. About 30 minutes later, she returned to find Hanna dead,” he said.

“Hanna was very beautiful and she was sunbathing topless. Emma said that they normally sunbathed topless if there were no people around,” he added.

[Thai at Heart]

i dont recall seeing that the victim of this crime was naked on the beach, so why does this keep on coming up?

from the original report of the Phuket Gazette; according to Tah Chat Chai Police Deputy Superintendent Lt Col Payongsak Petchrod and the girlfriend of the victim, she #was# actually sunbathing topless at the time.

Hanna Charlotta was staying at Mai Khao Beach Bungalow resort with Emma Storman, who found Hanna’s body about 300 meters from the resort.

Tah Chat Chai Police Deputy Superintendent Lt Col Payongsak Petchrod told the Gazette, “The place where the body was found is hard to see and very quiet. There is a mound there and behind that is thick with trees. There are no restaurants near there, and no people.”

Emma told police that she did not see anyone in the area around the time of the murder, Lt Col Payongsak said. “Emma left the resort to buy some water and she told Hanna that she will join her sunbathing later. About 30 minutes later, she returned to find Hanna dead,” he said.

“Hanna was very beautiful and she was sunbathing topless. Emma said that they normally sunbathed topless if there were no people around,” he added.

So where did this statement come from?

"She was wearing a black bikini top with the cords at the back undone, and light blue bikini briefs"

[Thai at Heart]

i dont recall seeing that the victim of this crime was naked on the beach, so why does this keep on coming up?

from the original report of the Phuket Gazette; according to Tah Chat Chai Police Deputy Superintendent Lt Col Payongsak Petchrod and the girlfriend of the victim, she #was# actually sunbathing topless at the time.

Hanna Charlotta was staying at Mai Khao Beach Bungalow resort with Emma Storman, who found Hanna’s body about 300 meters from the resort.

Tah Chat Chai Police Deputy Superintendent Lt Col Payongsak Petchrod told the Gazette, “The place where the body was found is hard to see and very quiet. There is a mound there and behind that is thick with trees. There are no restaurants near there, and no people.”

Emma told police that she did not see anyone in the area around the time of the murder, Lt Col Payongsak said. “Emma left the resort to buy some water and she told Hanna that she will join her sunbathing later. About 30 minutes later, she returned to find Hanna dead,” he said.

“Hanna was very beautiful and she was sunbathing topless. Emma said that they normally sunbathed topless if there were no people around,” he added.

So where did this statement come from?

"She was wearing a black bikini top with the cords at the back undone, and light blue bikini briefs"

And this one from Scandasia

"Hanna Charlotta was wearing her two piece bikini, black top and blue botttom. She had a stab wound to the left side of her body and a slash accross her thoat. A knife wound accros her palm inside her hand indicated a struggle. There was a lot of blood on the sand. "

Or is this not more disinformation from Col bedecked in medals, in his skin tight uniform relaying hearsay in an official capacity?

[CymruAmByth]

Has this really got anything to do with Thai culture or nudity? I remember when I lived in the UK (supposedly a very liberal, equalitarian country) being shocked by rape statistics. It was something like 1 in 4 women would be a survivor of a sexual assault. So the liberal, equalitarian attitudes did not seem to stop the minority of deranged individuals from committing crimes. Neither did the almost continual sub-zero temperatures and so lack of nudity.

Sh!t...1 in 4 Brits raping innocent women? A minority? 25% of the male population sexually assaulting? Methinks you read (past tense) wrong.

I wish I did "read wrong" but I am afraid I didn't:

"1 in 4 women have experienced rape or attempted rape" Painter, 1991

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/stats.html

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/HOFindings159.pdf

must be looking at a different set of stats.

Astonishing statistic!

Thanks for the heads up.

[Samuian]

After all, this IS the Country of Thai People and they have certain rules, follow traditions and certain ethic codes....

Should they look away?

Isn't it understandable, that unruly and out of social order conduct breeds contempt, anger and does upset people?

In this particular case someone may have been deranged or not, maybe he was upset, by the appearance of tourists, maybe there was a rift in HIS relationship, and as a result has murdered a innocent tourist, enjoying her holidays to her taste and for her satisfaction...

My condolences to her family and friends!

But how in the Universe one can blame an entire country it's people and it's police force for what happened?

Blame it on someone else, never draw a conclusion, never try to understand why, what triggered this event!

Sure it was the reluctance and ignorance of the Thai and it's police force - I wonder why so many people stay here and even many more come each year to enjoy their holidays....

Apparently crime targeted at tourists and foreigners are very low, compared to other countries and holiday destinations...

be fair!

[pickel]

It's quite possible she may have been sunbathing topless and when the man approached her she may have tried to cover up, but not being able to tie the cords before he killed her.

[mobs00]

Try doing a google search for "topless Phuket" 150,000 results. Below is an excerpt I pulled from one site on the first search page.

"Nai Harn beach is also located in the south of the Island & has beautiful beaches with secluded areas for top less & nud_e bathing , Nai Harh beach & Kata beach has good surfing during the wet season (May - October)."

source:http://www.rawaimuaythai.com/Rawai_Information.html

I know this is not a reliable source but when researching a vacation are you going to check the credibility of information you come across? It is no wonder so many are ill-informed. A quick glance at the results strongly suggest topless sun bathing is ok at the beach in Thailand.

Edited March 27, 2008 by mobs00

[clausewitz]

My opinion; This is unlikely to change any time soon. 10%, 25%, 50% or 100% of foreign tourists could be murdered, and the Thai authorities would not lift a finger to protect them. If they make money short term then they are happy. End of story.

Even if we take your lowest figure of 10% that would be 1.4 million tourists a year murdered. I think the numbers are somewhat less than that at present.

[Thai at Heart]

After all, this IS the Country of Thai People and they have certain rules, follow traditions and certain ethic codes....

Should they look away?

Isn't it understandable, that unruly and out of social order conduct breeds contempt, anger and does upset people?

In this particular case someone may have been deranged or not, maybe he was upset, by the appearance of tourists, maybe there was a rift in HIS relationship, and as a result has murdered a innocent tourist, enjoying her holidays to her taste and for her satisfaction...

My condolences to her family and friends!

But how in the Universe one can blame an entire country it's people and it's police force for what happened?

Blame it on someone else, never draw a conclusion, never try to understand why, what triggered this event!

Sure it was the reluctance and ignorance of the Thai and it's police force - I wonder why so many people stay here and even many more come each year to enjoy their holidays....

Apparently crime targeted at tourists and foreigners are very low, compared to other countries and holiday destinations...

be fair!

No one is blaming the whole of anything. A sick person triggered this event, and some pretty high ranking people have tried to place part of the blame on the victim.

If it is their country as I am so often reminded, and they are so terribly offended by tourist, then simply pass a law banning all topless sunbathing and inform tourists accordingly, plus close down all the filth that goes on in this country. They have a kitten when an honest Swedish tourist is murdered, partly try to pass the blame onto her, but turn a blind eye to Sodom and Gamorrah up the road.

But then that would cost money, but then who knows maybe one day, morals might come higher than the mighty $$$.

[Thai at Heart]

It's quite possible she may have been sunbathing topless and when the man approached her she may have tried to cover up, but not being able to tie the cords before he killed her.

Lots of things are possible, but the initial statements say she was wearing a bikini.

[pickel]

It's quite possible she may have been sunbathing topless and when the man approached her she may have tried to cover up, but not being able to tie the cords before he killed her.

Lots of things are possible, but the initial statements say she was wearing a bikini.

From the first post on TV about her death: "She was wearing a black bikini top with the cords at the back undone, and light blue bikini briefs."

[jts-khorat]

If it is their country as I am so often reminded, and they are so terribly offended by tourist, then simply pass a law banning all topless sunbathing and inform tourists accordingly, plus close down all the filth that goes on in this country.

The law was actually quoted not so far above in this thread; sounds a lot like an indecent exposure law to me. To keep the parallel; in the same way one might encounter nud_e or half-nud_e girls in certain establishments in Germany or the US (I am not so sure about the UK) without police having a problem, it would be certainly cause the attention of law enforcement if one would try to dance naked down the main street.

There was also a statement from Patong police, that they elect to not enforce this law on the beach of Patong; which -- as we all do know -- marks Thailand clearly as a 3rd world country where one should better be better than the law than just following what seems to go at the moment, because one might get caught out on the wrong foot (see helmet laws, house ownership, etc etc).

And I seem to remember, that every Lonely Planet I have touched so far warns against topless sunbathing and 'indecency'. I am sure a minute long internet search will dig up a relevant statement as well, together with the "150,000" results from Google that are purely to attract clicks to websites -- all in all a majority of internet users still seems to go to the internet for porn.

I would suggest that if your whole research in the culture of a foreign country is based on a minute-long search, than your cultural awareness might be called lacking or even non-existent.

If the police chief has mis-quoted the girlfriend of the deceased so blatantly, I am sure that it would have been greatly expanded upon in the Scandinavian press; so far I have not read such quotes, but if one sees one, I am happy to correct my impression that a half worn bikini might just have been a non-worn bikini at the time; a detail surely, not distracting from the guilt of the offender, but important for future visitors who do want to avoid unnecessary risks for sure.

[Thai at Heart]

If it is their country as I am so often reminded, and they are so terribly offended by tourist, then simply pass a law banning all topless sunbathing and inform tourists accordingly, plus close down all the filth that goes on in this country.

The law was actually quoted not so far above in this thread; sounds a lot like an indecent exposure law to me. To keep the parallel; in the same way one might encounter nud_e or half-nud_e girls in certain establishments in Germany or the US (I am not so sure about the UK) without police having a problem, it would be certainly cause the attention of law enforcement if one would try to dance naked down the main street.

There was also a statement from Patong police, that they elect to not enforce this law on the beach of Patong; which -- as we all do know -- marks Thailand clearly as a 3rd world country where one should better be better than the law than just following what seems to go at the moment, because one might get caught out on the wrong foot (see helmet laws, house ownership, etc etc).

And I seem to remember, that every Lonely Planet I have touched so far warns against topless sunbathing and 'indecency'. I am sure a minute long internet search will dig up a relevant statement as well, together with the "150,000" results from Google that are purely to attract clicks to websites -- all in all a majority of internet users still seems to go to the internet for porn.

I would suggest that if your whole research in the culture of a foreign country is based on a minute-long search, than your cultural awareness might be called lacking or even non-existent.

If the police chief has mis-quoted the girlfriend of the deceased so blatantly, I am sure that it would have been greatly expanded upon in the Scandinavian press; so far I have not read such quotes, but if one sees one, I am happy to correct my impression that a half worn bikini might just have been a non-worn bikini at the time; a detail surely, not distracting from the guilt of the offender, but important for future visitors who do want to avoid unnecessary risks for sure.

On off, tied on (cut off in the attack?), naked, half naked, semi exposed. It is all really semantics.

The poor girl got killed and in respect for cutural niceties, it is in some way her fault?

Would we dare to discuss this subject the same way about kids (under the age of 13) and paedophiles?

[jts-khorat]

If it is their country as I am so often reminded, and they are so terribly offended by tourist, then simply pass a law banning all topless sunbathing

The law was actually quoted not so far above in this thread;

a half worn bikini might just have been a non-worn bikini at the time; a detail surely, not distracting from the guilt of the offender, but important for future visitors who do want to avoid unnecessary risks for sure.

On off, tied on (cut off in the attack?), naked, half naked, semi exposed. It is all really semantics.

The poor girl got killed and in respect for cutural niceties, it is in some way her fault?

Would we dare to discuss this subject the same way about kids (under the age of 13) and paedophiles?

Thai at Heart, you cannot have it both ways; if it is just semantics, why does it seem so important to you that she wore the piece of cloth (and one might see my previous comment now marked in bold); what makes some reporter from Thai Rath delivering hearsay (in a probably not even exact translation; see: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=175178, post #1) a better source than the Phuket police chief quoting a primary witness??!

I do not know where you get the pedo angle from, but distraction from your confused argument is just your easy way out, is it?

Edited March 27, 2008 by jts-khorat

[Thai at Heart]

If it is their country as I am so often reminded, and they are so terribly offended by tourist, then simply pass a law banning all topless sunbathing

The law was actually quoted not so far above in this thread;

a half worn bikini might just have been a non-worn bikini at the time; a detail surely, not distracting from the guilt of the offender, but important for future visitors who do want to avoid unnecessary risks for sure.

On off, tied on (cut off in the attack?), naked, half naked, semi exposed. It is all really semantics.

The poor girl got killed and in respect for cutural niceties, it is in some way her fault?

Would we dare to discuss this subject the same way about kids (under the age of 13) and paedophiles?

Thai at Heart, you cannot have it both ways; if it is just semantics, why does it seem so important to you that she wore the piece of cloth (and one might see my previous comment now marked in bold); what makes some reporter in Scandinavia delivering hearsay a better source than the Phuket police chief??!

I do not know where you get the pedo angle from, but distraction from your confused argument is just your easy way out, is it?

Not at all, the initial reports and most of the international press say she was wearing a bikini.

Then later after the event, a policeman is quoted as saying" Her friend told us that she liked to sunbathe topless when no one was around", which means exactly what? Nothing, but it means a lot in the domestic news.

He knows he will be widely quoted in the Thai newspapers and less so in the rest of the world. I don't know exactly when these statements were made by the policeman, but it was after the initial reports describing her attire when the first reports came out. It is absolute hearsay. So her friend said she liked to sunbathe topless. So the hel_l what, and it cannot be proven that at the moment she was murdered she was topless at all. So a person in a position of responsibility should choose his words much more carefully. It is a time honored tactic of the coppers in these cases to tittle tattle about the rights and wrongs of the victims. If she had lived, but now, they may have dragged her thru the mud (note the Pai shooting).

The initial pictures show a woman face down with a bikini on. So by insinuating anything different has colored the discussion on here for ages. She was topless, she was naked, she is partly to blame.

I threw in another angle, because there are people in this discussion claiming that in some way her behaviour invited this heinous crime on her. Well we daren't say it about other heinous crimes and I am of the opinion that no ranking official should even be allowed to mention that she in any way caused this to happen. Thousands of females wear them in Thailand. Thousands of women in Thailand work in less, but she in some way brought this on her?

There is absolutely no excuse or justification for saying that this girl could have in any way known that she was bringing this on her. Statements made by men in positions such as these are simply an immoral get out to excuse the permissive and uncontrolled urges of men.

[Dupont]

Unfortunately, Thai at Heart is exhibiting exactly the type of behaviour typical of intolerant PC individuals.

First is the assertion that they are right. No room for opinions contrary.

Second, a counter opinion is voiced. This (in this thread) was jumped on as condoning rape and murder. Then there was the "you obviously havn't got children", " would you like this if it was your sister/aunt cousing type rants. This sad old tactic browbeats many in the west into submission. This along with the insults ie Arseholle, jerck and "nut" that were directed at the officer.

Then the argument becomes disjointed and confused and the anti is upped again. Anyone holding any opinions other than "all men are rapists and oppressors of women" is now lined up with paedophiles.

Let em rant JTY, let em rant. It reminds us of why we left the intollerent , miserable, angry indignant, rabid bunch of non-thinking sheep behind.

I reiterate. Someone can be of the opinion that exposing the body could cause excitement and bad behaviour in a small minority of individuals and!!! (as in "as well as") be of the opinion that this was a heinous crime perpetrated on an innocent girl.

Its an opinion and quite prevalent in Thailand. They know where the airport is at anytime they find Thais and their culture unbearable!

[farang prince]

If it is their country as I am so often reminded, and they are so terribly offended by tourist, then simply pass a law banning all topless sunbathing

The law was actually quoted not so far above in this thread;

a half worn bikini might just have been a non-worn bikini at the time; a detail surely, not distracting from the guilt of the offender, but important for future visitors who do want to avoid unnecessary risks for sure.

On off, tied on (cut off in the attack?), naked, half naked, semi exposed. It is all really semantics.

The poor girl got killed and in respect for cutural niceties, it is in some way her fault?

Would we dare to discuss this subject the same way about kids (under the age of 13) and paedophiles?

Thai at Heart, you cannot have it both ways; if it is just semantics, why does it seem so important to you that she wore the piece of cloth (and one might see my previous comment now marked in bold); what makes some reporter in Scandinavia delivering hearsay a better source than the Phuket police chief??!

I do not know where you get the pedo angle from, but distraction from your confused argument is just your easy way out, is it?

Not at all, the initial reports and most of the international press say she was wearing a bikini.

Then later after the event, a policeman is quoted as saying" Her friend told us that she liked to sunbathe topless when no one was around", which means exactly what? Nothing, but it means a lot in the domestic news.

He knows he will be widely quoted in the Thai newspapers and less so in the rest of the world. I don't know exactly when these statements were made by the policeman, but it was after the initial reports describing her attire when the first reports came out. It is absolute hearsay. So her friend said she liked to sunbathe topless. So the hel_l what, and it cannot be proven that at the moment she was murdered she was topless at all. So a person in a position of responsibility should choose his words much more carefully. It is a time honored tactic of the coppers in these cases to tittle tattle about the rights and wrongs of the victims. If she had lived, but now, they may have dragged her thru the mud (note the Pai shooting).

The initial pictures show a woman face down with a bikini on. So by insinuating anything different has colored the discussion on here for ages. She was topless, she was naked, she is partly to blame.

I threw in another angle, because there are people in this discussion claiming that in some way her behaviour invited this heinous crime on her. Well we daren't say it about other heinous crimes and I am of the opinion that no ranking official should even be allowed to mention that she in any way caused this to happen. Thousands of females wear them in Thailand. Thousands of women in Thailand work in less, but she in some way brought this on her?

There is absolutely no excuse or justification for saying that this girl could have in any way known that she was bringing this on her. Statements made by men in positions such as these are simply an immoral get out to excuse the permissive and uncontrolled urges of men.

Very well stated Thai at Heart. As a retired detective I can tell you that if I had made a statement like the General in charge of the Thai Tourist Police did, I would have been back walking a beat at midnight the next day. A number of crime victims do things that in some way contribute to their victimization...i.e., going to bars at night, getting drunk, flashing a lot of money or jewelry, not being aware of their environment, being in the wrong place at the wrong time...but that doesn't mean they deserve to be victims. Unless someone is acting in self-defense, the blame should always be placed on the offender.

The problem in Thailand is that no one wants to be accountable. It is a typical bureaucratic mentality that is seen in Washington, London, Paris, Rome, Madrid or Berlin too.

It didn't take these recent murders of tourists to tell us that Thailand is becoming a more dangerous place to live and visit. But getting a government official to admit that is something we probably won't see in our lifetimes.

[LaoPo]

The problem in Thailand is that no one wants to be accountable. It is a typical bureaucratic mentality that is seen in Washington, London, Paris, Rome, Madrid or Berlin too.

Nothing new indeed.

It's the same all over the world and, like you mentioned, in the western so-called civilized world as well.

A bureaucrat is a bureaucrat and will always be one, that's why they will never make money, except the shrewd ones

LaoPo

[Plus]

... if it is just semantics, why does it seem so important to you that she wore the piece of cloth ...

Because the police use it as an excuse to say "she asked for it".

She could have been topless then saw the guy and covered herself, maybe they even talked before he attacked.

Doesn't matter, as you rightly say, unless you start blaming her for getting herself killed. The next step in this logic is that the guy performed an act of public service.

[jts-khorat]

Very well stated Thai at Heart. As a retired detective I can tell you that if I had made a statement like the General in charge of the Thai Tourist Police did, I would have been back walking a beat at midnight the next day.

A number of crime victims do things that in some way contribute to their victimization...i.e., going to bars at night, getting drunk, flashing a lot of money or jewelry, not being aware of their environment, being in the wrong place at the wrong time...but that doesn't mean they deserve to be victims. Unless someone is acting in self-defense, the blame should always be placed on the offender.

Just re-reading the original article in the Herald Tribune, I am actually not reading it as if the police officer is actually blaming this particular victim:

Choochart played down the recent killings, saying, "I believe security in Thailand is better than in many other countries." He also said that some of the attacks were occasioned by the behavior of the women themselves. Under a front-page photograph of a Western woman in a skimpy bikini, The Bangkok Post quoted Choochart as saying, "They tend to choose a quiet spot away from other people, take off the bikini and sunbathe. That's when the attackers strike."

Maybe a lot more blame (in this case!) should be brought about the sensationalist way the Bangkok Post put this comment, maybe even out of context, on their front page.

Because in essence this police man said -- almost verbatim -- exactly what you, FarangPrince, just said; I read it as a purely descriptive statement of what might have happened: 'girl goes to lonely place on the beach; attacker strikes and kills her"; I do not see any blame placed on the victim, 'occasioned' reads to me that they behaved careless and were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Funny that you think for your own opinion this man should be sacked. You just said the same than him!!

It's always nice to have an occasion to bash the Thais and their police, this seems to be blown well out of proportion by some overly PC individuals on Thai Visa.

To Thai at Heart:

Not at all, the initial reports and most of the international press say she was wearing a bikini.

Wow, Thai Rath in an unofficial translation on Thai Visa by George himself is the international press now. You got your argument totally screwed up here.

We cannot even get a basic fact from the news like which kind of swimsuit it was, or in which state the victim was found; other people in this thread say the photos show a woman in bikini, I have read others talking about a one-piece swimsuit. Absolutely not the same thing. How can anybody then think that the media are actually portraying words said with any more accuracy.

Fact in the end is, the policeman seems to have quoted the girlfriend of the victim, right at the scene, verbatim, which makes his statement much stronger than hearsay from a Thai Rath reporter, without a source given. Both might be completely wrong and misrepresented by the media, but I rather go with primary witnesses and the officers handling the case than third-rate info. And so should any retired "detective", or you (FarangPrince) were not worth the money you got at your job.

Edited March 28, 2008 by jts-khorat

[jts-khorat]

... if it is just semantics, why does it seem so important to you that she wore the piece of cloth ...

Because the police use it as an excuse to say "she asked for it".

She could have been topless then saw the guy and covered herself, maybe they even talked before he attacked.

Doesn't matter, as you rightly say, unless you start blaming her for getting herself killed. The next step in this logic is that the guy performed an act of public service.

Nope, the next step in the logic is that future visitors to Phuket take it as a warning not to sit alone on a deserted corner of the beach, with or without clothes (and better with than without).

One can take a valuable lesson out of this tragedy without actually blaming the victim; not a difficult concept per se.

[Scott]

As people rant, complain and defend, I think an important point is being missed. Whenever a bad situation is taken apart piece by piece it can be a learning tool for everyone concerned. Unfortunately, this is being done in the midst of a tragic event rather than as a more instructive way of protecting ourselves and the ones we love.

I have mentioned before that Thailand is deceptive precisely because the people smile a lot and seem so peaceful. We don't expect the bad. If we were walking in particularly bad parts of most any wester city, this would/could be expected. Not condoned, but expected. We might, because of the knowledge, taken preventative action.

But, most importantly, it is the police and tour operators who need to be aware and taken action to prevent crimes.

Everytime the police conveniently arrest and imprison the wrong person, they are letting a criminal stay on the street. Everytime an 'influential' person walks free from a criminal act, it's one more criminal who will be around to commit another crime. Folks need to remember that criminals generally don't just commit one crime and then stop.

[Samuian]

......edit............

It's always nice to have an occasion to bash the Thais and their police, this seems to be blown well out of proportion .......edit........

We cannot even get a basic fact from the news like which kind of swimsuit it was, ......edit........the policeman seems to have quoted the girlfriend of the victim, right at the scene, verbatim, which makes his statement much stronger than hearsay from a Thai Rath reporter, without a source given. Both might be completely wrong and misrepresented by the media, but I rather go with primary witnesses and the officers handling the case than third-rate info. ..edit..

but one can put 1 and 2 together and get a pretty good picture!

The only pic I ever have seen was one where she was a.) still alive, it showed just the top part (Face) of her and an idea of a bikini top!

..........edit........Nope, the next step in the logic is that future visitors to Phuket take it as a warning not to sit alone on a deserted corner of the beach, with or without clothes (and better with than without).

One can take a valuable lesson out of this tragedy without actually blaming the victim; not a difficult concept per se.

Certainly, and I hopr so too!

Too many emotions involved and NO genuine first hand eyewitness, makes almost everything "hearsay".... and I say it again: Nobody want the victim to blame, but there is something to as has been written here in some post's not based on emotions or "feminist ideas how the world should react according to them"!

Sad story, but I hope that this gives the right signal to those going to deserted beaches and think that they are "alone" and therefor can do what they want..... full stop!

.......edit........ Unfortunately, this is being done in the midst of a tragic event rather than as a more instructive way of protecting ourselves and the ones we love.

...........edit...... We might, because of the knowledge, taken preventative action.

But, most importantly, it is the police and tour operators who need to be aware and taken action to prevent crimes.

...........edit.........

Well put!

Edited March 28, 2008 by Samuian

[jts-khorat]

Whenever a bad situation is taken apart piece by piece it can be a learning tool for everyone concerned. Unfortunately, this is being done in the midst of a tragic event rather than as a more instructive way of protecting ourselves and the ones we love.

Good to see a more balanced view of things instead of the usual hysterical Thai Visa rants.

Calling for the sacking of the police chief over a translated comment or even that the whole Thai population changes their world view for the sake of tourists seem to be so out of bound that they are just laughable. 'First thinking, than typing' and Thai Visa would be so much more useful to read.

[barky]

You can make an impression on Thais around you.

They didn't get their stereotypes from nowhere, it's from people like us.

If ever there was a ridiculous statement this was it. Thai kids have nonsense drummed into them about farangs from the earliest of ages.

How about the word farang? Ask any Thai what it means and they will say "foreigner". Ask them if Malays, Chinese or any other non white race are farangs and they will say no. Farang means a western white person. From an early age Thais have a prejuduce towards farang. How many times have you seen an adult with a small child point to a white person and say "farang, farang".

To me personally since I've been in Thailand, about 25 to 30 times over seven years so far. I turn the other cheek and try to forgive them for their thoughtlessness and their blatant display of racisim.

[peter991]

How many times have you seen an adult with a small child point to a white person and say "farang, farang".

Get out of Bangkok and head into Issan where there's a lot less farangs - and you get wide-eyed children pointing their fingers at us and saying 'farang!'

In some villages in Issan farang take the place of the bogey-man. Mothers have been known to tell their children: 'Be good or the farang will eat you.'

In tourist areas only part of the farang worth eating is their wallet. Sad but true.

Peter