Is There Any Counseling For Depression In Chiang Mai

[Lopburi99]

I have family member that is depressed with her relationship. She is in what appears to be a good relationship but she is still depressed. It looks more like its the way they communicate and that they in fact do love each other. Some basic exercises and and getting over trust issues would be something that I see could help. I used to do counseling myself way back when but I cant get involved on that level within the family unit. Any suggestions on where marriage counseling or counseling in general could be found in Chiang Mai.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Swain,

I think you've gotten some really great advice, already, here, but I will add a few thoughts. If these thoughts seem in any way patronizing or didactic, I apologize. The intent is to just add to the discussion. I speak from personal experience here as both a former clinically trained psychiatric social worker (MSW, UC Berkeley), and a former board-certified practitoner of group psychotherapy and psychodrama (don't do that anymore, however). I am also a person who has struggled with depression most of my life, and a person who has survived one somewhat disabling accident in Thailand, and a person who has survived cancer treatment here in Thailand. I have also worked for the American Cancer Society in the past in a research project on the clinical aspects of depression related to cancer and cancer treatment. I also spent a year at NIMH in the USA at St. Elizabeth's hospital working with a variety of patients.

"Depression," I believe, has become an "umbrella-concept" over the last fifty years that has become less and less valuable in the sense that such a wide variety of phenomena are described using the term that it is "diluted," and used too generally, and too glibly.

An aged person grieving for the death of a spouse after twenty years of life together does not, imho, have the same kind of depresion that a young athlete who's lost the use of a limb necessary for his/her sport, has. Nor does a teenager whose heart has "been broken" after the end of their first experience of love and betrayal or loss have the same type of depression as the depression of someone who has lost their job and is worried about paying the rent.

There are specific clinical types of depression which are well-recognized. Deep "endogenous" depression can be life-threatening and require shock-treatment or other extreme measures : this is rare. Ancient Ayurvedic medicine in India recognized endogenous depression, and used the surprise threat of violent death to try and shock patients out of their spiral of disintegration. If you have ever seen someone literally progressing towards dying with this intense form of depression, you will never forget it.

SAD or "seasonal affective disorder" is a well-recognized specific depressive syndrome related to the changing circadian rhythms (changing of relative length of night in winter months). In my family 3 out of 4 children (including myself) have a strong depressive response around the September-October time-frame in the US. This form of depression can be treated successfully with light-box therapy.

Then there is the clinically well-defined form of depression associated with manic-depression which can be ameliorated with lithium. If you have been around someone rapidly flipping back and forth between extreme mania and deep depression, you'll know how scary and debilitating manic-depression is.

In recent years, along with the widespread use of SSRI's that elevate the levels of serotonin in the "soup of the brain" (by suppressing its uptake by neurons), for every human problem, and at times, inappropriately, imho, to control children without facing what's happening in families to produce troubled and depressed children ... has come the idea of a form of lower-level manic-depression : this has been termed by some "cyclothymic depression," more commnly "bipolar." This term is, imho, often used indiscriminately.

And with the widespread use of the SSRI's (Prozac, Effexor, etc.) has come the idea that countless persons are suffering from "chronic low-level" depression. There is a strenuous and active debate in this area with many people believing that the SSRI's are, propelled by aggressive drug-company marketing practices, being over-prescribed.

But, beyond these more definable clinical entities, imho, the word "depression" is now used indiscrimintely to characterize even our impression of a person's affect and appearance : like : "wow, you look depressed today." It is used to describe people who are grieving for any reason often without regard to the contextual differences of one form of grief (like loss of a family member) and another (like facing cancer). I'll leave it as an "exercise" for you, gentle reader, to fill out the many other ways the term is used.

Your concern for your friend's situation is a warm-hearted and compassionate reponse, I am sure; I think important things for you t think about are things like how your friend is experiencing their "state" : do they feel they are depressed or do they have a very different idea (perhaps culturally defined) about where they are or how they are experiencing their quality of life ?

Does your friend acknowledge they may need "help," and see "western-style" counselling or psychiatric approaches as potentially beneficial ? Please think about whether your friend is "grieving" about specific losses, or is in a state of profound life-change related to age, or change of job, or change in significant relationships.

Again, I applaud the suggestions given on this topic by other posters who have pointed out possible cross-cultural issues and pointed to the value of exercise and sunlight. Dr. Andrew Weill has commented that a half-hour of exercise per day is the best anti-depressant he knows of (he is, as you may know, an alternate health practitioner with very excellent traditional credentials as a doctor and professor and researcher).

Finally, I think it's a wonderful thing that your frend has you in their life to be concerned about their mental state, and with the ability to recognize that something more may be going on here than just the "problems of living" we all face. imho the presence of one concerned and aware person (friend or family or, maybe, both) in your life can and does make a difference !

best wishes on your quest to help your friend !

regards, ~o:37;

Great post orange. Feels great to read a post with has accurate information and good advice (as well as being well written). I have something to add. You referred to "shock treatment" (re: the "One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest" movie [almost all dramatic crap]). Well, I have some recent, updated information on that, usually referred in the States as ECT ("Electro-convulsive Therapy). After going through some devastating times a few years ago I am not too proud to admit I decided to undergo these treatment(s) because I was fed up with the ineffectiveness of even the latest medications (SSRIs, you name it). As an inpatient I underwent 11 ECT treatments. They are not near as bad or spooky as reported. All they consist of is a very small electric current (induced under a momentary general anesthesia - a few seconds at most by a specially trained Psychiatrist). Supposedly the purpose it to introduce a very low-level convulsion through 3 or 4 sensors attached to the forehead. This causes a stimulation in the areas of the brain expected to produce serotonin and other important chemical entities. My first treatment was nothing short of spectacular, I remember feeling so good I danced a little jig on the way back to my room. The treatments were scheduled 2 days apart, and I had 10 more. It was difficult to attribute the effects of the ECT vs the meds I were also taking, but I felt continually better (although subsequent treatments didn't produce a jig) each time. I was scheduled for 16 treatments but left the hospital after 11 feeling fine and expecting to complete the other 5 outpatient. Unfortunately the outpatient treatments turned out to not be covered under my insurance and I was unable to me readmitted.

My conclusion. If you have long-term major clinical depression and it seems to be worsening (as it often does in aging adults) I would suggest you get more informaton on this ECT technique. It is NOT as dramatic (in my medically uninformed opinion) as it is made out to me, and is a rapidly growing technique in the States and elsewhere, but probably not in Thailand. You may have to travel abroad to get it.

It's all over Google: http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/depress...reatments.shtml is just one link.

My only complaint (other than it's cost), is the effects tend to wear off over time, and I was told a patient many need to return monthly for followup treatments. But if you are FED UP with fighting major depression all of your life, LOOK into ECT, it could possibly change your life. It did mine when I was really down and out.

To you fellow depression sufferers - DON'T GIVE UP HOPE! GET A GOOD DOCTOR (or keep trying others), KEEP SEARCHING FOR A CURE, being it therapy/consultation based, medication based, natural exercise/diet/light treatment based, or even electrical (ECT) treatment. And keep up on your internet research. I just read electromagnetism is sometimes used in the effective treatment of depression. I believe it because in my opinion anything which stimulates increased and sustained serotonin levels will help you feel better.

Ther very best to you. Please keep us posted!

Edited November 26, 2008 by Lopburi99

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Lopburi99,

First, it's great that you were able to be helped by ECT (electro-convulsive therapy) !

And you are very right-on to emphasize that the "shock treatment" of today is nothing like what was shown in the movie "Cuckoo's Nest" and other old movies.

There are other methods of extreme treatment for depression also such as insulin shock therapy which (if memory serves me rightly) was shown in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" about the life of mathematician (and Nobel winner) John Nash (played by Russell Crowe).

What I would like to add to your thoughtful response is the information that in addition to the SSRI's which affect the Serotonin metabolsm in the brain (Prozac, Effexor, Luvox, etc.) there are now other new medications for severe depression that operate on different cerebral chemical processes and interactions, like the dopamine metabolism.

And new combinations old therapies are proving useful such as : for people who have been on SSRI's for years and find themselves becoming depressed again, a small dose of something like Wellbutrin may help "re-potentiate" the SSRI's effect. Lithium salts are now added to the treatment for certain types of depression that don't respond to the "entry-level' medications.

A good overview of anti-depressant medications and their history :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depress...rder#Medication

What I would like to emphasize is the caution that all of these treatments (including Prozac) can have profound side-effects, and should only be taken under medical supervision. The SSRI's take several weeks, for most people, to have an impact, and there are some few who have increase suicidal ideation and depression as the effects come on.

And for the most extreme treatments for severe (endogenous) depression (which is recalcitrant to milder treatment regimens), like insulin or electro- shock therapies, these are, while often literally "life-saving," very dangerous procedures that require the best medical advice.

The "glass is half full" view is that if you can use the "window of opportunity" opened up by pharmacological treatment or medical treatment to get "beyond" your depression, you are then enabled, imho, to make the long-term changes in behavior and cognitive patterns that, over time, not only help you overcome your depression, but build your character and help you move forward to reach your human potential and be a loving, aware, intelligent, human being capable of relationships with others and productivity.

Freud, in his final work, the short masterpiece, "Civilisation and Its Discontents," said life comes down to "leben und arbeit" (work and love).

regards, ~o:37;

[idrankwhat]

There is an American psychiatrist here in Chiang Mai, he teaches psychology at CMU. I met him at a pharmacy at Rimping market he was helping some old expats. I got his number but never called, his name is Dr. Christopher and he does counsel private patients. His number is 081-386-3318 I hope that helps he really seemed to know his stuff and gave some sound advice free!

[realthaideal]

Does anybody know where to get ahold of Dr. Pairat during the day ? I understand he's got clinic hrs at night, but this is kind of urgent and would like to get a friend to him asap for a consultation....and usually these doctors all keep hrs at a couple hospitals or clinics throughout the day. Feel free to PM me if not confortable posting a direct mobile # to the good Dr. Thanks.

[swain]

A quick update: She treated the initial depression with Prozac. With amazingly positive results. She has been on the medication for over 6 months now.

There is a problem though. When she is on the medication she feels so normal that she believes she doesn't need the medication anymore and just stops taking the medication with out letting anyone know. She then over the next three to 5 days after stopping slides big time back into the depression big time. As soon as she is convinced to start taking it again 2-3 days later she is the same happy person she ever was. We are trying to get her into Therapy but when she is on the medication she feels its not needed and has nothing to talk about. The doctor that prescribed the medication said that she may need another 6 months of use.

With the meds she is fine, without them she tries to talk people around her into letting her kill herself, she feels that no one loves her, including her 2 year old baby. I know these meds help with the symptoms and not with the underlying cause.... At this point I dont know how she ever gets off these meds.

I haven't kept up with this thread but I will from now on. .

Edited February 11, 2009 by swain

[Shazza]

The people at The Well are Christians for sure but don't push it down people's throats - they are all professionally trained and if you are westerners it would very likely be better to go to westerners for this kind of help as the cultural issues can be quite different. My teenaged son went to a counselor there and mostly just chatted with him and listened to him and kind of sussed out where he was at... didn't talk about God at all unless my son brought that subject up, which he mostly didn't... I find when I need help I manage all right with a cuppa tea with a girl friend, but for couple stuff I would definitely go to the Well.

[orang37]

A quick update: She treated the initial depression with Prozac. With amazingly positive results. She has been on the medication for over 6 months now.

There is a problem though. When she is on the medication she feels so normal that she believes she doesn't need the medication anymore and just stops taking the medication with out letting anyone know. She then over the next three to 5 days after stopping slides big time back into the depression big time. As soon as she is convinced to start taking it again 2-3 days later she is the same happy person she ever was. We are trying to get her into Therapy but when she is on the medication she feels its not needed and has nothing to talk about. The doctor that prescribed the medication said that she may need another 6 months of use.

With the meds she is fine, without them she tries to talk people around her into letting her kill herself, she feels that no one loves her, including her 2 year old baby. I know these meds help with the symptoms and not with the underlying cause.... At this point I dont know how she ever gets off these meds.

I haven't kept up with this thread but I will from now on. .

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Swain,

I am way too far out-of-date in terms of training, and being broadly informed about the latest developments with SSRI's, to give you anything but very qualified hypotheses that :

1. first of all a few days of being not on Prozac should not trigger such extreme symptoms : the effect of SSRI's is cumulative, as you probably know; it takes a few weeks for most people start feeling the effects as the level of serotonin in the "cerebral soup" is raised by blocking the neuronal uptake of serotonin : similarly : it should take at least a week or two for the effects to recede.

2. I suggest you consider the hypothesis that her initital reaction contains some "placebo effect," and her quick return of extreme symptoms after only a few days off is a kind of "reverse placebo effect."

3. in my opinion the presence of suicidal ideation, extreme negative thoughts about her baby, etc. indicate she is probably not on the optimal mix of therapy and/or pharmacological treatment she needs.

4. Her going off the meds at random suggests she does not understand the depth of her problem : in my mind that is a key problem here in itself that any good therapist will try to address. The goal being to help the person see the need for medication over a period of time as something not to be ashamed about, as being a rational and healthy response.

I think she needs a good consult with a medically qualified psychiatrist; unfortunately I have no personal experience here in Chiang Mai (or in Thailand) with any, but it seems obvious that other posters here have, and you have some names and phone numbers.

I wish you and your friend the very best health and peace of mind, and wish I were able to give you a more informed, updated, opinion.

~o:37;

[foxyhooper]

I have family member that is depressed with her relationship. She is in what appears to be a good relationship but she is still depressed. It looks more like its the way they communicate and that they in fact do love each other. Some basic exercises and and getting over trust issues would be something that I see could help. I used to do counseling myself way back when but I cant get involved on that level within the family unit. Any suggestions on where marriage counseling or counseling in general could be found in Chiang Mai.

I think i have friend who has in the past had similar problems he told me that there is a Doctor based on the superhighway who is know as Dr.Eddie. I think he got his degree from Harvard and is well renowned in Chiang mai the other option of course is the relationship is indeed in a unrepiarable mess and has run its course and now time to face the music.Acceptance is sometimes easier than trying to prolong a problem.I hope this will be of some help to you I will ask my friend if he still has the number and post later if not you could ask around

[Jungian]

There is an American psychiatrist here in Chiang Mai, he teaches psychology at CMU. I met him at a pharmacy at Rimping market he was helping some old expats. I got his number but never called, his name is Dr. Christopher and he does counsel private patients. His number is 081-386-3318 I hope that helps he really seemed to know his stuff and gave some sound advice free!

Yes, that would be me, what a nice complement and I thank you. I received 3 phone calls yesterday based on this posting and I have spent the better part of the day tracking down 'Thai Visa Forum' to see what was posted about me.

I am an American psychiatrist however; I do not have a private practice here in Thailand nor do I intend to open one. I like to help people thus the free sound advice. I am a professor of psychology/philosophy at a local university here in Chiang Mai. I know there are quite a few traveling hacks that try to pass themselves off as psychologists and they charge exorbitant fees just before fleeing the country in search of more victims.

I primarily deal with grief, death, dieing, loss, illness, etc. thus my second degree in philosophy. I have a pretty opened schedule thanks to my employer and if anyone has a serious problem I'm willing to help at no cost however; I don't want to turn this into a second job.

Please be advised if you are looking for drugs I will not give them to you nor will I write prescriptions for money so please don't even bother to ask as I will be required to report it to the police.

[sassienie]

Is There Any Counseling For Depression In Chiang Mai, Family member needs help?

Yes, ThaiVisa.

When I`m down and depressed, I just log in to ThaiVisa. It`s great for depression because on reading the threads, soon come to realised that 99% of members have worse problems than me.

Not a total cure for depression, but certainly makes me feel better.

[orang37]

... snip ... When I`m down and depressed, I just log in to ThaiVisa. It`s great for depression because on reading the threads, soon come to realised that 99% of members have worse problems than me. Not a total cure for depression, but certainly makes me feel better.

We pause here to contemplate the possible relationship of schadenfreude to karuna metta in semantic space, whilst hoping against hope the desire for such contemplation soon passes and we return to hearing the subtle sweet pulsing song of a nearby nok kapoot.

But for _____ there goest "I."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75BC0A9649C8B63

~o:37

[Chrissygunn]

I have family member that is depressed with her relationship. She is in what appears to be a good relationship but she is still depressed. It looks more like its the way they communicate and that they in fact do love each other. Some basic exercises and and getting over trust issues would be something that I see could help. I used to do counseling myself way back when but I cant get involved on that level within the family unit. Any suggestions on where marriage counseling or counseling in general could be found in Chiang Mai.

Have a look at our website; www.thelifechangepeople.com We are based in Chiang Mai and to date have mainly offered Life Change Programmes to people who wish to undertake it as part of a holiday. It's not on our website yet, but we've recently started offering, both Life Change Programmes and individual counselling sessions to English speaking people locally. We are experienced and proficient in working with depression, anxiety, stress, alcohol and other substance use, as well as counselling around bereavement, relationships...anything really. I won't go into loads more detail here...our website contains information about us and our Programmes as well as some comments from both clients and members of the press who have attended them. If having looked at the site, you would like to arrange an initial session, please e-mail Chrissy at; [email protected] We are not affiliated to any particular religion by the way.

[Jungian]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression and I am certainly not trying to drum up business as I have a full load with my full time job however; I must speak up about some of the postings under this topic which are misleading unqualified and furthermore nothing but businesses trying to take advantage of peoples suffering and illness for financial gain.

A psychiatrist is a physician who deals with mentally ill patients. Psychiatrists are MD's, so we can prescribe medication. As a result, we usually deal with clinical issues such as schizophrenia, manic-depression, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. whose treatments tend to require medication. Vacations, 4 Night Spa Packages and blowing smoke up your A** and telling you it is sunshine as a medical treatment is not only irresponsible it is criminal (even in Thailand).

My advice to those seeking help is to either go to a hospital or get a referral from your doctor. There are a lot of con artists passing themselves off as psychologists and psychiatrists here in Thailand in general, they tend to move around month to month and travel between different countries, this is not how professionals work, a professional is available for his/her patients 24 hours a day, worst case they will have another doctor cover for them.

All I am saying is please, please, please be careful many of these people are at best dangerous and can not help you if you have any kind of real issue or illness.

Always make sure you check your doctors credentials, if you haven't heard of their university look it up on the internet.

Feel free to PM me if you need help. As I said I'm not looking for extra work but I would be happy to direct you to someone that can genuinely help you and not con you. If you are on a tight budget and can not afford a doctor I am willing to help you.

[orang37]

I share with Khun Jungian a concern for the quacks in the barnyard here, these very loud self-promoting quackers. And I share with him/her, I believe, that if you are at a level of suffering where you may be severely impaired, out of control, deeply depressed, if you are hallucinating, if you have a drug dependency or alcohol dependency that has "taken on a life of its own," if you are having thoughts about suicide that go beyond passing fantasies, etc. : you should get help, and you should be dam_n careful where you go to get help, and who you go to get help from. For me, the idea of starting with a trusted general practitioner makes "common sense" if you have that invaluable resource.

... snip... A psychiatrist is a physician who deals with mentally ill patients. Psychiatrists are MD's, so we can prescribe medication. As a result, we usually deal with clinical issues such as schizophrenia, manic-depression, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. whose treatments tend to require medication.

Yes, and an important thing to note is that within the profession of psychiatry there are those who are psychoanalysts (in the "classic" Freudian, Jungian, Adlerian, etc. flavours), and there are many other modern variations including such existential psychoanalses as those based, for example, on the work of Viktor Frankl ("logotherapy"). And then there are non psycho-analytic psychiatrists whose practice may be based on neuro-biological models, Gestalt theory, theories of "cognitive remodelling," or a "behavioral" approach which emphasizes specific techniques to change behavior, like systematic de-sensitization.

This farang ghost here inside me once studied and practiced (and was accredited to practice) Moreno's Psychodrama, a method of "emotional education in a group setting" using techniques in western culture associated with theater. Powerfully therapeutic, it was frequently used with shell-shocked combat veterans of WWII at Saint Elizabeth's Hospital (where I trained in 1979, run by the NIMH in Washington, D. C.) where Moreno came in 1939. It's still around, and often used, in adapted form, in hospital settings. A completely different approach than any form of psycho-analysis based on a relatively sophisticated theory of personal change and growth through role-playing. The chief problem with this mode is that people most attracted to it are, wouldn't you guess, "hysterics" for whom the last thing they need is to express themselves further A cruel joke, perhaps; a mentor, the psychiatrist Adam Blatner, who I had the privilege to work with at the VA hospital in Menlo Park, Ca., wrote a book called "Acting In" to describe psychodrama. But it seems psychodrama, like Gestalt therapy, is past its prime.

Today, in general, Freudian and Jungian psychotherapies are "antiques" based on questionable premises, downright intellectual fraud (particularly in the case of Freud), and pseudo-religious hidden agendas (particularly in the case of Jung). In many ways they are first-class examples of "professional cults." That is not an indictment of Freud or Jung, by the way, whose original works are so well worth reading (I was fascinated by Jung beginning around age 14, and Freud's works on infant neural development, and his incredible self-study of overcoming his own cocaine habit [the seven per-cent solution] is a remarkable landmark). The development of so-called "ego-psychiatry" in post-Freud-Jung years was partly an attempt to move away from demonstrably preposterous ideas of the content of dreams having psycho-sexual or "cosmic" meanings in the sense that it was clearly demonstrated, to the consternation of all involved, that if your shrink was a Freudian you'd tend to have dreams about incest, etc., if your shrink was Jungian you'd dream about cosmic mandalas, and if your shrink was Adlerian, you'd dream about conflicts with your siblings : in other words dream content is malleable, subject to social influence and suggestion.

But you should distinguish between the cultural role of such icons as Freud and Jung, and the reality of the practice of psycho-analysis which has historically been done by an elite, provided to the elite, and supported the hierarchical structural excesses and violence (through chemical rather than physical restraint) against the mentally ill most of whom are poor, illiterate, victims of racism, sexism, poverty, abuse, discrimination. As E. Fuller Torrey, one of my mentors, commented in a famous book : "psychiatry is a relatively un-effective form of witchcraft."

Another of my mentors, Dr. Ravi Kapur (1976, psychiatrist and Ph.D. anthropologist in India) found he could effectively work with Indian indigenous healers in remote areas where no psychiatric services on a western model could be provided, teaching them to use certain western medications effectively : and his research found that these indigenous healers most often knew and recognized the difference between depression based on specific losses and grief and "deep endogenous" depression which can be life-threatening. Also found that most of them recognized schizophrenics and knew better than to try and treat them.

Which, again, is not an indictment at all : I have the greatest respect for people who put in the hard work to become physicians ! And those who can attain self-knowledge through psycho-analysis, and who have the gift to use what they've gained, along with knowledge of bio-chemistry and medication, like I assume Khun Jungian is and does, are the most valuable of resources. But these days most psychiatrists are mainly dealing in meds; by the time they've gone through their training and been sucked into a medical system that un-naturally carves up the mind and body (and in America become slaves to insurance companies), they are mostly pill-pushers with veneers of whatever-flavored advice.

And there is repeatable, provable, solid, scientific evidence, for a variety of therapies that can ameliorate mental conditions (evidence based therapies) which is now recognized by such official bodies as the APA and which are not based on psycho-analaysis, do not require medical training, etc. And the proven validity and efficacy of short-term therapies contrasted with time-consuming older modes of psychotherapy are now "weapons of war" in the struggle between service providers and insurance companies that dominates all aspects of medical care (in America).

Vacations, 4 Night Spa Packages and blowing smoke up your A** and telling you it is sunshine as a medical treatment is not only irresponsible it is criminal (even in Thailand).

Well, here : I think the use of such extreme comparison befuddles the real issue which is that all some people may really need is a good vacation, a spa retreat and yoga lessons, a few hours with a good counsellor who knows how to listen. And let's distinguish those who set out on a "quest" for self-improvement and self-knowledge (that's the epitome of healthy !) from those who are "behind the eight-ball" psychologically and need clinical intervention. And let's distinguish the normal "problems of living" we all face including loneliness, finding and maintaining nourishing social bonds and intimacy, coping with money, sex, death, and taxes from extreme psychological emergencies where problems in every sphere of living are impacting each other (i.e., crises).

My advice to those seeking help is to either go to a hospital or get a referral from your doctor. There are a lot of con artists passing themselves off as psychologists and psychiatrists here in Thailand in general, they tend to move around month to month and travel between different countries, this is not how professionals work, a professional is available for his/her patients 24 hours a day, worst case they will have another doctor cover for them.).

All I am saying is please, please, please be careful many of these people are at best dangerous and can not help you if you have any kind of real issue or illness.

Always make sure you check your doctors credentials, if you haven't heard of their university look it up on the internet.

Certainly excellent advice ! I'd add to that the idea that if you decide to hook-up with some organization promoting some kind of "life transformation" or other vaguely defined valve-job, and note the people involved do not have any certification in counselling, psycho-therapy, social work, etc., beware !

Feel free to PM me if you need help. As I said I'm not looking for extra work but I would be happy to direct you to someone that can genuinely help you and not con you. If you are on a tight budget and can not afford a doctor I am willing to help you.

That's most kind of you, and I wish you well. I'd like to know someone in Thailand who is an endocrinologist into neuro-biology who is really up on all the lastest research on the dopamine and serotonin systems as well as psycho-metabolic issues : i.e., not necessarily a psycho-therapist.

At one point I thought about trying to establish a volunteer hotline here in Chiang Mai for Farangs but then I remember my experiences when I use to volunteer at the San Fracisco Suicide Prevention Hotline : half the callers were drunk, many of them were masturbators who'd hang up if they didn't get the right gender they wanted answering the phone. And a few were in deep trouble and could really be helped, just by listening, just by respectfully helping them get out the story.

~o:37;

Edited April 12, 2009 by orang37

[Jungian]

Orange37 don't be mislead by my user name I am a man of science and I am guided by the latest techniques, research and studies. Understanding Freud and Jung are the basis for any kind of psychology just as Plato and Socrates are the basis for any kind of Western philosophy. I am a big fan of Jung then again I am a big fan of Galileo Galilei. I doubt I would seek medical attention from Jung nor would I trust a space craft designed by Galileo.

My point to this post was simply a warning against people offering non-medical services or persons not qualified to practice any form of psychology, counseling, psychiatry,etc. searching for prey. In my years of experience I have found people tend to prey on those who are hurting for financial gain and as most people are aware when we are sick or in pain we are vulnerable and willing to spend all we have with the first person who offers hope.

As far as "psychiatry is a relatively un-effective form of witchcraft" the same was said about gravity itself, the true "witchdoctors" are those offering spas, massage and blood transfusions as a cure. Spas and massage for stress perhaps but not as a cure for a psychological issue.

Any time we enter a new field of research it tends to bring the religious right out to tell us we are witches, evil doers or the spawn of Satin himself, quite frankly I'm over it. I specialize in grief, loss, death and dieing however I did my internship and residency covering all aspects and disorders in a clinical hospital setting in the United States, I also have 9 years experience working in a Psychiatric hospital in the United States as an attending physician.

As I mentioned I am not looking for work nor am I trying to develop a patient base my employer pays my bills quite comfortably and I enjoy my free time. I know there are those out there, teachers I suspect mostly who are having financial difficulties trying to make ends meet in Thailand and I simply offered a free service for those who could not afford to seek help elsewhere.

I have helped a number of people thus far and have been successful in relieving their suffering and helping them to live the life they want to live. Out of all of the people I have seen only one has offered any money which was promptly put is a scholarship program envelope and immediately turned into the university office.

To me it doesn't matter what school of psychology you subscribe to as long as you went to a school of psychology, your method is approved, tested and accepted by the APA or equivalent.

On a lighter but dangerous note an English teacher with a BA in political science approached me in the university and asked me if we had any psychology teaching positions available and if he could teach psychology, I in turn asked him if he had a degree in psychology and what was his experience to which he informed me "no but I don't have a degree in English either and I can teach it". These are the people that scare me and the people I am cautioning about.

[palander]

My point to this post was simply a warning against people offering non-medical services or persons not qualified to practice any form of psychology, counseling, psychiatry,etc. searching for prey. In my years of experience I have found people tend to prey on those who are hurting for financial gain and as most people are aware when we are sick or in pain we are vulnerable and willing to spend all we have with the first person who offers hope.

Are you for real ? Why don't you step off your high donkey ?

[realthaideal]

Are you for real ? Why don't you step off your high donkey ?

I think Jungian has a point. This town has alot of gurus in fisherman pants and yoga/massage/healing centers, that in many cases are not suited for those with severe mental or physical issues. Everybody has their own perspectives. he simply offers a word of caution. Sprouts, massage, and enemas, does not a balanced schizophrenic make.

[elektrified]

My point to this post was simply a warning against people offering non-medical services or persons not qualified to practice any form of psychology, counseling, psychiatry,etc. searching for prey. In my years of experience I have found people tend to prey on those who are hurting for financial gain and as most people are aware when we are sick or in pain we are vulnerable and willing to spend all we have with the first person who offers hope.

Are you for real ? Why don't you step off your high donkey ?

I think the Doctor has made a very good point. I don't believe you read his post accurately. People with severe mental illness or depression need to see a licensed physician experienced in Psychiatric disorders, or at the very least a licensed Psychologist or Clinical Social Worker who can refer them to get the right help.

[boney]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression and I am certainly not trying to drum up business as I have a full load with my full time job however; I must speak up about some of the postings under this topic which are misleading unqualified and furthermore nothing but businesses trying to take advantage of peoples suffering and illness for financial gain.

A psychiatrist is a physician who deals with mentally ill patients. Psychiatrists are MD's, so we can prescribe medication. As a result, we usually deal with clinical issues such as schizophrenia, manic-depression, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. whose treatments tend to require medication. Vacations, 4 Night Spa Packages and blowing smoke up your A** and telling you it is sunshine as a medical treatment is not only irresponsible it is criminal (even in Thailand).

My advice to those seeking help is to either go to a hospital or get a referral from your doctor. There are a lot of con artists passing themselves off as psychologists and psychiatrists here in Thailand in general, they tend to move around month to month and travel between different countries, this is not how professionals work, a professional is available for his/her patients 24 hours a day, worst case they will have another doctor cover for them.

All I am saying is please, please, please be careful many of these people are at best dangerous and can not help you if you have any kind of real issue or illness.

Always make sure you check your doctors credentials, if you haven't heard of their university look it up on the internet.

Feel free to PM me if you need help. As I said I'm not looking for extra work but I would be happy to direct you to someone that can genuinely help you and not con you. If you are on a tight budget and can not afford a doctor I am willing to help you.

Hi Jungian,

I have read this forum with interest. I came across your offer of being able to recommend a professional to those that need advice.

I have been looking for a safe and reputable psychologists/psychiatrists (I don't know which one I need to see)

I am 50 years old male, living in Chiang Mai.

I feel that I am needing some help. I do not want to go into details on this forum. I just feel I need help in someway to give answers to questions that I can not answer about my mental health.

I would like to just talk to someone who maybe able to point me in the right direction with regards as who to see. I am not looking for free advice, drugs or anything like that. I do not want to see someone who is a not professional or on a scam.

Thank you in advance.

boney

[hmficc]

clinic_map_and_address.doc

Dr Kittiwan was a great help to a friend who tried to top himselp. She when more than the extra mile and he turn out well.

Edited June 27, 2009 by hmficc

[Jungian]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression and I am certainly not trying to drum up business as I have a full load with my full time job however; I must speak up about some of the postings under this topic which are misleading unqualified and furthermore nothing but businesses trying to take advantage of peoples suffering and illness for financial gain.

A psychiatrist is a physician who deals with mentally ill patients. Psychiatrists are MD's, so we can prescribe medication. As a result, we usually deal with clinical issues such as schizophrenia, manic-depression, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. whose treatments tend to require medication. Vacations, 4 Night Spa Packages and blowing smoke up your A** and telling you it is sunshine as a medical treatment is not only irresponsible it is criminal (even in Thailand).

My advice to those seeking help is to either go to a hospital or get a referral from your doctor. There are a lot of con artists passing themselves off as psychologists and psychiatrists here in Thailand in general, they tend to move around month to month and travel between different countries, this is not how professionals work, a professional is available for his/her patients 24 hours a day, worst case they will have another doctor cover for them.

All I am saying is please, please, please be careful many of these people are at best dangerous and can not help you if you have any kind of real issue or illness.

Always make sure you check your doctors credentials, if you haven't heard of their university look it up on the internet.

Feel free to PM me if you need help. As I said I'm not looking for extra work but I would be happy to direct you to someone that can genuinely help you and not con you. If you are on a tight budget and can not afford a doctor I am willing to help you.

Hi Jungian,

I have read this forum with interest. I came across your offer of being able to recommend a professional to those that need advice.

I have been looking for a safe and reputable psychologists/psychiatrists (I don't know which one I need to see)

I am 50 years old male, living in Chiang Mai.

I feel that I am needing some help. I do not want to go into details on this forum. I just feel I need help in someway to give answers to questions that I can not answer about my mental health.

I would like to just talk to someone who maybe able to point me in the right direction with regards as who to see. I am not looking for free advice, drugs or anything like that. I do not want to see someone who is a not professional or on a scam.

Thank you in advance.

boney

I am very sorry due to the amount of abuse I have received from Thai Visa members I feel that it is in my best interest to no longer give medical advice, referrals or free counseling to Thai Visa members. I would suggest asking a local hospital or perhaps you could ask "idrankwhat" he is a doctor in Chiang Mai. Again I am very sorry I can't help you.

[idrankwhat]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression and I am certainly not trying to drum up business as I have a full load with my full time job however; I must speak up about some of the postings under this topic which are misleading unqualified and furthermore nothing but businesses trying to take advantage of peoples suffering and illness for financial gain.

A psychiatrist is a physician who deals with mentally ill patients. Psychiatrists are MD's, so we can prescribe medication. As a result, we usually deal with clinical issues such as schizophrenia, manic-depression, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. whose treatments tend to require medication. Vacations, 4 Night Spa Packages and blowing smoke up your A** and telling you it is sunshine as a medical treatment is not only irresponsible it is criminal (even in Thailand).

My advice to those seeking help is to either go to a hospital or get a referral from your doctor. There are a lot of con artists passing themselves off as psychologists and psychiatrists here in Thailand in general, they tend to move around month to month and travel between different countries, this is not how professionals work, a professional is available for his/her patients 24 hours a day, worst case they will have another doctor cover for them.

All I am saying is please, please, please be careful many of these people are at best dangerous and can not help you if you have any kind of real issue or illness.

Always make sure you check your doctors credentials, if you haven't heard of their university look it up on the internet.

Feel free to PM me if you need help. As I said I'm not looking for extra work but I would be happy to direct you to someone that can genuinely help you and not con you. If you are on a tight budget and can not afford a doctor I am willing to help you.

Hi Jungian,

I have read this forum with interest. I came across your offer of being able to recommend a professional to those that need advice.

I have been looking for a safe and reputable psychologists/psychiatrists (I don't know which one I need to see)

I am 50 years old male, living in Chiang Mai.

I feel that I am needing some help. I do not want to go into details on this forum. I just feel I need help in someway to give answers to questions that I can not answer about my mental health.

I would like to just talk to someone who maybe able to point me in the right direction with regards as who to see. I am not looking for free advice, drugs or anything like that. I do not want to see someone who is a not professional or on a scam.

Thank you in advance.

boney

I am very sorry due to the amount of abuse I have received from Thai Visa members I feel that it is in my best interest to no longer give medical advice, referrals or free counseling to Thai Visa members. I would suggest asking a local hospital or perhaps you could ask "idrankwhat" he is a doctor in Chiang Mai. Again I am very sorry I can't help you.

Oh no, don't pull me into this I have seen the abuse for sound advice. I just read TV for the news. Need a doctor go to the hospital, I'm not a psychiatrist. But I'm really sorry you feel that way Jungian but I can see it's true.

[elektrified]

I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression and I am certainly not trying to drum up business as I have a full load with my full time job however; I must speak up about some of the postings under this topic which are misleading unqualified and furthermore nothing but businesses trying to take advantage of peoples suffering and illness for financial gain.

A psychiatrist is a physician who deals with mentally ill patients. Psychiatrists are MD's, so we can prescribe medication. As a result, we usually deal with clinical issues such as schizophrenia, manic-depression, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. whose treatments tend to require medication. Vacations, 4 Night Spa Packages and blowing smoke up your A** and telling you it is sunshine as a medical treatment is not only irresponsible it is criminal (even in Thailand).

My advice to those seeking help is to either go to a hospital or get a referral from your doctor. There are a lot of con artists passing themselves off as psychologists and psychiatrists here in Thailand in general, they tend to move around month to month and travel between different countries, this is not how professionals work, a professional is available for his/her patients 24 hours a day, worst case they will have another doctor cover for them.

All I am saying is please, please, please be careful many of these people are at best dangerous and can not help you if you have any kind of real issue or illness.

Always make sure you check your doctors credentials, if you haven't heard of their university look it up on the internet.

Feel free to PM me if you need help. As I said I'm not looking for extra work but I would be happy to direct you to someone that can genuinely help you and not con you. If you are on a tight budget and can not afford a doctor I am willing to help you.

Hi Jungian,

I have read this forum with interest. I came across your offer of being able to recommend a professional to those that need advice.

I have been looking for a safe and reputable psychologists/psychiatrists (I don't know which one I need to see)

I am 50 years old male, living in Chiang Mai.

I feel that I am needing some help. I do not want to go into details on this forum. I just feel I need help in someway to give answers to questions that I can not answer about my mental health.

I would like to just talk to someone who maybe able to point me in the right direction with regards as who to see. I am not looking for free advice, drugs or anything like that. I do not want to see someone who is a not professional or on a scam.

Thank you in advance.

boney

I am very sorry due to the amount of abuse I have received from Thai Visa members I feel that it is in my best interest to no longer give medical advice, referrals or free counseling to Thai Visa members. I would suggest asking a local hospital or perhaps you could ask "idrankwhat" he is a doctor in Chiang Mai. Again I am very sorry I can't help you.

Congratulations TV members on alienating the doctor. He was kind enough to offer his professional advice and make referrals to those in need. Job well done.

[idrankwhat]

I'm sure if you PM Jungian he will help you out it's not his nature to let people suffer I think he has just had it with the stupidity on TV when he is seriously trying to help someone which is the reason I do not give medical advice or any advice for that matter, I learned that right away.

[WaiWai]

I'm sure if you PM Jungian he will help you out it's not his nature to let people suffer I think he has just had it with the stupidity on TV when he is seriously trying to help someone which is the reason I do not give medical advice or any advice for that matter, I learned that right away.

Sorry, too, idrankwhat and Jungian but seems to be the nature of the beast.

I would suggest you help out in the Medical section of ThaiVisa. Moderator Sheryl (not sure who the other moderators are without checking) is quick to spot any nonsense (or stem it if alerted via Report button and/or private message). She's an excellent resource and could use some help on the Medical forum, I'd think.

[Asmerom]

Congratulations TV members on alienating the doctor. He was kind enough to offer his professional advice and make referrals to those in need. Job well done.

I have just read through this interesting thread and am at loss to understand Jungian's complaint : "due to the amount of abuse I have received from Thai visa members" and also idrinkwhat's comment about the "stupidity of TV" Has this "abuse" been removed and the "stupidity" deleted?

I can find only one coarsely inappropriate post (out of about 40) by one, palander, who is possibly out of his depth,about "stepping off your high donkey" ; an incongruity made all the more apparent by the acres of fertile discussion from which it sticks out like a feeble weed and which the above comments seem to ignore.

Have all the good doctor's kind offers of support been extinguished by the inane muttering of one who is, maybe in need of his help? A professor of Psychology and Philosophy floored by one illiterate remark? Surely not. After all he freely dispenses quite hostile epithets himself when he refers to dangerous "con artists", "travelling hacks searching for victims" and for good measure issues dire threats of police action against imagined addicts turning up at his door begging for drugs. Treating addicts as criminals hardly seems compatible with a caring and understanding attitude.

This post is in no way hostile.I am simply curious and am searching for a rational explanation. I can't believe it. I must surely have missed something but I just can't find the torrents of personal abuse and stupidity in this thread which might justify its otherwise baffling conclusion.

[elektrified]

Congratulations TV members on alienating the doctor. He was kind enough to offer his professional advice and make referrals to those in need. Job well done.

I have just read through this interesting thread and am at loss to understand Jungian's complaint : "due to the amount of abuse I have received from Thai visa members" and also idrinkwhat's comment about the "stupidity of TV" Has this "abuse" been removed and the "stupidity" deleted?

I can find only one coarsely inappropriate post (out of about 40) by one, palander, who is possibly out of his depth,about "stepping off your high donkey" ; an incongruity made all the more apparent by the acres of fertile discussion from which it sticks out like a feeble weed and which the above comments seem to ignore.

Have all the good doctor's kind offers of support been extinguished by the inane muttering of one who is, maybe in need of his help? A professor of Psychology and Philosophy floored by one illiterate remark? Surely not. After all he freely dispenses quite hostile epithets himself when he refers to dangerous "con artists", "travelling hacks searching for victims" and for good measure issues dire threats of police action against imagined addicts turning up at his door begging for drugs. Treating addicts as criminals hardly seems compatible with a caring and understanding attitude.

This post is in no way hostile.I am simply curious and am searching for a rational explanation. I can't believe it. I must surely have missed something but I just can't find the torrents of personal abuse and stupidity in this thread which might justify its otherwise baffling conclusion.

Maybe he was referring to other threads as well; not only this one.

I did not read his post that way at all. 1) He was warning members about people passing through town offering counseling services who i) May or may not be licensed mental heath professionals; ii) Are not licensed to practice medicine in Thailand; iii) May offer some hope to a patient and then skip out of town leaving the patient feeling hopeless again. 2) He said he would be "required" to notify the police if he was approached for drugs - narcotics one would assume.

I've seen some of the ads of people passing through town offering their "services" (post #27 as an example). No where in post #27 did the author say that he was licensed in Thailand. Furthermore, he only said he was "accredited", not a licensed mental health professional, and that he was only in town for about three months time.

Maybe I read too much into Jungian's post, but it seemed like sound advice to me. I can't comment on the issue of calling the police if approached for drugs. I'm not sure in what context he was referring to.

[idrankwhat]

I'm posting on behalf of Jungian as he is if nothing else a man of his word and will not post anymore however ridiculous that may seem to anyone including me to a point and I told him so, I am doing this because he is my friend and I am offended by the behavior of quite a few of the TV members. Yesterday our families "jungian's " and mine got together and we talked about what pushed and or is pushing him over the edge, it's not just Thai visa although that is a large part of it. He recently quit smoking I think it is a little over 2 months now and he is the least bit on edge which I can understand as I have made it a point not to smoke around him which after 3 hours or so it gets to me and puts me on edge. Jungian works in a totally Thai atmosphere and I am his only foreign friend we met by chance professionally at a pharmacy not too long ago.

It's not just one thing on TV it all compounds the constant bickering, verbal assaults, PM's and questioning of ones credentials which are readily available however people would rather just question, insult and call you a blatant lair to make a public ass out of you rather than check the facts.

I'm sharing this with you because he said I could although he couldn't see the point and as he put it 'it's the internet these people will pass me every day and never know who I am, so whatever'. Jungian has tried to be helpful and give sound medical advice which I have read and concur with and when he does so he is undermined by a TV member with an opinion based on an episode of ER or House thus he is wrong and many members try to make him the fool. When Jungian has expressed concern or pointed out right from wrong morally from humanistic universally true point of view or in a mentally healthy way of looking at things he has been attacked even when logic is on his side, I have read the posts and even sort of defended reason in a few situations which was useless. The biggest difference between Jungian and I is he really genuinely cares and would do anything to help anyone at any time, me not a chance no good deed goes unpunished as Jungian is quickly learning.

I am in no way trying to be his advocate and I too am a physician (trauma physician) but I pointed out his first mistake which was mentioning that he was a physician let alone helping people on the internet. I discourage any kind of medical advice on any kind of forum that has just been my experience, if someone has a hang nail I will tell them to seek professional help whereas Juingian would probably come over to your house and remove it for a cup of coffee.

According to Jungian he has only ever counseled people in his office which is on a university campus and his office is clearly labeled with his credentials in Thai and English, I have been to his office for coffee not counseling so I can vouch for that, he has been employed by this institution for nearly 5 years now.

My comment about "stupidity on TV" had to do with some solid sound medical advice Jungian gave, he even provide web links to medical web sites the average person wouldn't have the vocabulary to google as they are medical terms and in response to his medical advice 3 members posted unreasonable not sound medical advice and 2 others made jokes about someones suffering. I'm kind of immune to this type of behavior in part because I'm from New York and because I have worked trauma for many years if one does not develop a dark side and sense of humor one will need a mental health professional.

As far as "imagined addicts" go no, there are real addicts here in Chiang Mai who go from pharmacy to pharmacy trying to score class drugs, in some cases they get them. These people have also approached me and asked for prescriptions which I have refused, so they are very real not imagined. What some of you may not have read may have been removed by moderators because it was just that bad and offensive.

In conclusion I was wrong to post that PMing Jungian would probably be alright and I apologize for my comment and overstepping my boundaries, he said he would answer PM's only to tell people to seek help elsewhere so they wouldn't be waiting for a response. I understand and support this position and I feel that he should never have made the offer in the first place. His current line of reasoning right or wrong is some of the people who made snide remarks turned around and asked for free counseling, he said that he doesn't want these people in his place of employment unless they go through the proper channels and make a documented appointment as he feels they may become a liability and land him in hot water so to speak. I agree with this and would have suggested this attitude from the beginning however he is young and learning along the way you can't save the world which most doctors learn after 10 years or so of practice.

I hope this clears up somethings for those of you who had sincere questions and I hope I didn't miss anything feel free to point out anything I didn't address and I will if I can. This is in no way an invitation to attack me as I am a neutral party and have no interest.

[Ulysses G.]

I am only speaking for myself, but I have nothing against Jungian and quite enjoyed his posts - even when I did not agree with them.

He made a big mistake tangling with Blinky Bill, but he has not been on here long and we all make mistakes.

I, myself, flirted with one of Blinky's wives many years ago, before she pointed out her husband to me. That was the end of that! Luckily, Blinky is usually quite forgiving.

No one has more Internet enemies than I do, and they have been whining about my posts and my every movement for years. Who cares? Everyone knows who I am and none of them has a word to say to my face.

Jungian has no reason to feel embarrassed. He has interesting ideas and goes out of his way to be helpful. Who cares what a bunch of weirdoes hiding behind their computers think? They hate his guts? He is in good company.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[orang37]

... No one has more Internet enemies than I do ... snip ..

Sawasdee Khurp, Khun UG,

Surely you meant to add on to this statement the words "in my head" ?

regards, ~o:37;