Anything Wrong With This Sentence?

[Loaded]

I teach:

'any' used in questions with uncountable nouns if you require a 'yes'/'no' response. For example: 'Is there any water in the kettle tirak?' You don't know.

'some' used in questions with uncountable nouns when you expect the answer 'yes'. For example, in a restaurant: 'Would you like some water, kinok?' The waiter is standing over you with a jug but won't pour until you give him permission.

So the waiter is expecting a 'Yes' answer, is he? That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it?

Not really if there's an empty glass. And as most restaurants have empty glasses until the waiter fills them, I would say the context is correct. And your explanation?

In the real world we mix both.

A summary:

'any' is used in positive sentences with plural countable and uncountable nouns.

'some' is used in interrogatives and negative sentences with plural countable and uncountable nouns.

You have it backwards - 'Some' for positives, 'any' for negatives.

You are correct - I mixed any and some by mistake

Normally, an article would only be used with single countable noun statements.

There are only two articles in English 'the - definite article and 'a' - indefinite.

I don't understand your point

Let's get back to the question, should we? Is it correct to say "Would you like a coffee?" Yes, it is! If I am offering you a coffee, what is it that I am offering you? A coffee tree? A coffee plantation? A cup of coffee? or maybe a coffee bean? It is permissible to omit words/phrases when the meaning is clear - I missed a word out in my blue, bolded statement concerning articles, did it make sense? Was the meaning any less clear? Other posters have pointed out that we omit 'glass/cup/beaker/schooner of' 'a container of' is a classifier used to make uncountable nouns countable, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?... just forgot to say without harming the meaning. The grammatical term for the omission of words is an 'ellipses', not to be confused with the three dots which is a printer's mark. Another example would be "I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't." you forgot the comma between the clauses I do not have to write "I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't cycled in the Swiss Alps." againWould I, a Brit, say 'Would you like a tea?' Possibly not because tea can mean either the drink, a light afternoon meal or the main meal of the day in certain parts of the UK. tea isn't countable so can't take an article, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?

Edited April 1, 2008 by Loaded

[mr_hippo]

So the waiter is expecting a 'Yes' answer, is he? That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it?

Not really if there's an empty glass. And as most restaurants have empty glasses until the waiter fills them, I would say the context is correct. And your explanation?

The waiter is expecting a 'yes' or a 'no' answer.

Let's get back to the question, should we? Is it correct to say "Would you like a coffee?" Yes, it is! If I am offering you a coffee, what is it that I am offering you? A coffee tree? A coffee plantation? A cup of coffee? or maybe a coffee bean? It is permissible to omit words/phrases when the meaning is clear - I missed a word out in my blue, bolded statement concerning articles, did it make sense? Was the meaning any less clear? Other posters have pointed out that we omit 'glass/cup/beaker/schooner of' 'a container of' is a classifier used to make uncountable nouns countable, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?... just forgot to say without harming the meaning.

An uncountable noun is just that - uncountable! You are, indeed, counting the container, just because the container is implied does not make the uncountable countable! As in "I'll have two (cups of) coffee(s)" instead of 'two cups of coffee' but if you omit the container then you must plualise the noun.

The grammatical term for the omission of words is an 'ellipses', not to be confused with the three dots which is a printer's mark. Another example would be "I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't." you forgot the comma between the clauses No comma has been omitted - where do you think it should go? I do not have to write "I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't cycled in the Swiss Alps." again See previous comment Would I, a Brit, say 'Would you like a tea?' Possibly not because tea can mean either the drink, a light afternoon meal or the main meal of the day in certain parts of the UK. tea isn't countable so can't take an article, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?]

Can the word 'tea' take an article? Yes, it can. 'Oolong is a tea from China'; 'The tea from Sri Lanka is...'; "The tea we are serving this afternoon will be homemade scones, clotted cream and raspberry jam."

Your last sentence that starts 'tea[sic] isn't countable...' should really start 'Tea isn't countable...' You ought to know, if you are a teacher, that sentences begin with a capital letter!

[PeaceBlondie]

I am enjoying this. Some java, please.

[withnail]

I thought I answered the question perfectly well the first time, but for all the nutters who think that it's incorrect to say "Let's go for a beer." or "Would you like a tea or coffee?" I will include a quote from Practical English Usage, Michael Swan OUP:

Nouns for materials, liquids etc can be countable when they are used to talk

about different types.

Not all washing powders are kind to your hands.

We have a selection of fine wines at very good prices.

The same thing happens when we talk about ordering drinks. Compare:

Have you got any coffee?

Could I have two coffees? (= cups of coffee)

From The Good Grammar Book, Swan & Walter OUP:

Some words can be countable or uncountable with different meanings.

Three coffees, please. (= 'cups of coffee')

And from English Grammar in Use, Raymond Murphy CUP:

Coffee/tea/juice/beer etc. (drinks) are normally uncountable:

"I don't like coffee very much."

But you can say a coffee (= a cup of coffee), two coffees (=two cups) etc. :

Two coffees and an orange juice, please.

A point I've been wanting to make for a while is how worrying it is that of all the teachers here, I seem to be the only one with any books.

Edited April 1, 2008 by withnail

[Sapillyder]

This is being taught by a "native Farang" teacher.

"Would you like a coffee?"

Anything wrong or am I just crazy?

Ajarn Ski....

Going back to the original question, I'm sure most English speakers on both side of the Atlantic would agree that there is nothing wrong with Farangs teaching Thais the phrase as quoted, as it is now common parlance. "Would you like a tea?", as previously pointed out, is another matter entirely, and would be considered wrong.

Forget about the grammar books. They're out of date. For the purpose of clear and succinct communication the current day vernacular is the best option. Compare it with the evolution of the word หรือ meaning "or" or "really?" which has morphed from the correct pronounciation "Reuu" to the common day "Lor". The latter is barely touched on in most language books but is certainly the prefered usage these days, at least in everyday speech. Should teachers refrain from teaching the latter form to students of Thai, simply becuase it doesn't appear in any text book? I wouldn't want him or her as my teacher if they did.

[MacMac]

The English spoken word is not as grammatically rigid as the English written word. Creativity is often used in spoken language and can be heard in any dialogue. As someone has previously stated, the English language is a living and changing language. Therefore the use of a sentence such as ‘Would you like a coffee?’ although grammatically incorrect is commonplace. For obvious reasons it takes time for utterances to become rooted in language and for dictionaries and grammar books to ‘catch up’. However as this is an ambiguous statement both context and cultural knowledge are important if the sentence is to be understood. This is also true of the ambiguous statement ‘Would you like some coffee?’ Both statements could refer to a cup of coffee, a coffee tree, a coffee cake and much more. Tea as mentioned above would not be used in this sentence because the word tea, in British society can be used to refer to a drink, a time of the day or a particular meal. I am guessing that the statement ‘Would you like a tea?’ would be acceptable in the USA because it only refers to a beverage. Of course the statement is used in Britain but it would take more than the simple statement to determine the meaning including previous dialogue, non verbal language etc.

Therefore if I was questioned about the use of the statement ‘would you like a coffee?’ I would explain that, although it is grammatically incorrect, this statement has become common place with many English speakers, especially in the western world. However I think you are doing your student a disservice if you simply tell them that it is correct English usage, because it is not and many not be understood by all English speakers especially those new to the language. For example, idioms are perfectly acceptable in language but you would wait until the student has a level of understanding before you introduce them. The point made previously that the function of an English teaching in Thailand is to teach students to communicate is correct to a degree. However if the student is to gain a solid understanding of the language they should learn the rules before they learn how to break them. Maybe this is an idealistic view of language teaching and time constraints do not allow for such luxuries, but hey I am not a teacher yet and it’s easy to sit at a computer and plan an answer as opposed to thinking on your feet.

[withnail]

Am I writing in invisible ink or something?

They are not grammatically incorrect, my grammar books are not out of date and you shouldn't forget about them.

[twschw]

Essential Grammar In Use

Raymond Murphy

Cambridge University Press

Uncountable Nouns

For example: water, air, rice, salt, plastic, money, music, tennis

You cannot say one/two/three (etc) + these things: one water, two musics

Uncountable nouns have only one form:

money ,the money ,some money ,much money etc.

• 
  

I've got some money.

• 
  

There isn't much money in the box.

• 
  

Money isn't everything.

You cannot use a/an + uncountable nouns: a money a music

But you can say a piece of ... / a glass of ... etc. + uncountable noun:

a glass of water, a piece of cheese, a bowl of rice, a can of oil, a bottle of milk, a cup of coffee, a bar of chocolate, a piece of music, a game of tennis

[MacMac]

Yes Withnail, you are correct if you are teaching within the confines of your own culture. All the books mentioned were written by western linguists for native speakers or speakers with knowledge beyond basic levels. You are teaching to non native speakers with limited western cultural knowledge who do not necessarily relate a coffee to a cup of coffee without clarification. I believe the statement should be clarified and it is wrong to assume that a student would understand what you mean. Ok here is an example of the need for cultural understanding, the word ‘gay’ once meant happy, it was then used as a term for a homosexual, but now it is used amongst today’s youth to describe someone or some object that is uncool or untrendy. Without explanation the phrase ‘that is so gay,’ could be misinterpreted. (This is purely a linguistic observation and detached from any social implications) Unfortunately I am not bilingual so cannot give an example of a phrase that could seem obvious to a native speak of an Asian culture but ambiguous to a western speaker learning a second language such as Thai. Perhaps someone on the forum could do so. The original question asked if there was anything wrong with the statement ‘ would you like a coffee?’ and I would argue that it is ambiguous and therefore need clarification.

[Loaded]

So the waiter is expecting a 'Yes' answer, is he? That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it?

Not really if there's an empty glass. And as most restaurants have empty glasses until the waiter fills them, I would say the context is correct. And your explanation?

The waiter is expecting a 'yes' or a 'no' answer.

Let's get back to the question, should we? Is it correct to say "Would you like a coffee?" Yes, it is! If I am offering you a coffee, what is it that I am offering you? A coffee tree? A coffee plantation? A cup of coffee? or maybe a coffee bean? It is permissible to omit words/phrases when the meaning is clear - I missed a word out in my blue, bolded statement concerning articles, did it make sense? Was the meaning any less clear? Other posters have pointed out that we omit 'glass/cup/beaker/schooner of' 'a container of' is a classifier used to make uncountable nouns countable, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?... just forgot to say without harming the meaning.

An uncountable noun is just that - uncountable! You are, indeed, counting the container, just because the container is implied does not make the uncountable countable! As in "I'll have two (cups of) coffee(s)" instead of 'two cups of coffee' but if you omit the container then you must plualise the noun.

The grammatical term for the omission of words is an 'ellipses', not to be confused with the three dots which is a printer's mark. Another example would be "I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't." you forgot the comma between the clauses No comma has been omitted - where do you think it should go? I do not have to write "I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't cycled in the Swiss Alps." again See previous comment Would I, a Brit, say 'Would you like a tea?' Possibly not because tea can mean either the drink, a light afternoon meal or the main meal of the day in certain parts of the UK. tea isn't countable so can't take an article, but you knew that anyway, didn't you?]

Can the word 'tea' take an article? Yes, it can. 'Oolong is a tea from China'; 'The tea from Sri Lanka is...'; "The tea we are serving this afternoon will be homemade scones, clotted cream and raspberry jam."

Your last sentence that starts 'tea[sic] isn't countable...' should really start 'Tea isn't countable...' You ought to know, if you are a teacher, that sentences begin with a capital letter!

Silly responses, but I'll reply anyway.

Restaurant:

In a restaurant the waiter normally doesn't fill your glass until he has your permission. 'Would you like some water, Sir?' sounds more like a polite request to confirm it's OK, than your belief that the waiter would say "Would you like any water, Sir?'. In fact, if a waiter asked me 'would I like any water?' I would expect the next words to be 'and any fries?'. It appears we frequent different types of establishment.

Commas:

Often the use of commas is optional and their use depends whether you have an 'open' or 'closed' writing style. However, sometimes there are rules. Stand-alone (independent) clauses joined together by a conjunction to form a complex sentence require a comma before the conjunction. To use your words as my example:

"I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but he hasn't cycled in the Swiss Alps."

You'll notice that the clauses either side of the conjunction can stand independent of each other. You have created a complex sentence with 2 clauses, and each clause is independent of the other, because they contain at least a subject and verb (This is a Complex sentence with 3 independent clauses). The correct form should read:

'I have cycled in the Swiss Alps, but he hasn't cycled in the Swiss Alps.'

Conditional sentences follow the same rule. The Condition clause contains a subject and a verb, so does the Result clause. For example:

'If I had known Mr Hippo didn't know about commas or classifiers, I would have sent him an elementary grammar book' - 3rd Conditional used to discuss past hypothetical events.

However, if the clauses are reversed, a comma is no longer necessary, as 'If' acts as the 'break'.

Alternatively, if the second clause isn't independent, which means the subject of each verb is the same, you should write without a comma.

'I have cycled in the Swiss Alps but haven't cycled in the Swiss Alps.'

Edited April 2, 2008 by Loaded

[PeaceBlondie]

The citation from Murphy is probably incomplete. Some nouns are both countable and uncountable. Coffee is such an example, as cited from Swan by withnail (in visible ink ). My favorite, modern, excellent, British dictionary says coffee is both C and U.

It is correct grammar, as the grammar books clearly say it is correct.

[mr_hippo]

Silly responses, but I'll reply anyway. I know your responses are so I will try to help you!

In a restaurant(You've missed a comma.) the waiter normally doesn't fill your glass until he has your permission. 'Would you like some water, Sir?' sounds more like a polite request to confirm it's OK, than your belief that the waiter would say "Would you like any water, Sir?'. Now, where did I say that? - Nowhere! In fact, if a waiter asked me 'would I like any water?' I would expect the next words to be 'and any fries?'. It appears we frequent different types of establishment. You said "'some'[sic] used in questions with uncountable nouns when you expect the answer 'yes'." That sounds as if 'No' is not an acceptable answer! I think you mean 'a different type of establishment!

The use of a comma before a conjunction depends on a number of things - American English or British English, when you were taught and where. I have spoken to a number of my British friends and none would use a comma where you have put it. Do I think that you are wrong in using it? It is up to you!

Now, I suggest, that if you wish to 'correct' my grammar then you should ensure that yours is impeccable - it isn't! Go away and learn about capital letters, commas and how to use 'some' and 'any' properly, I'll test you tomorrow.

[twschw]

So when I show my students these two pictures they can answer "It's a coffee."?

[Loaded]

I'll test you tomorrow.

Will you?

pratt

[mr_hippo]

The original question asked if there was anything wrong with the statement ‘ would you like a coffee?’ and I would argue that it is ambiguous and therefore need clarification.

Are you a teacher? When you teach countable and uncountable nouns, you point out that some can be both countable and uncountable and give examples. Tell students that coffee is not countable and then ask them why I can go to Starbucks and order 'Two coffees'. You may find out that some students work it out for themselves and say something like "You mean 'Two cups of coffee". It's not rocket surgery!

So when I show my students these two pictures they can answer "It's a coffee."?

No, one is a jug and the other is a cup, it's all to do with context.

I'll test you tomorrow.

Will you?

pratt

'pratt' - 0/10. You need a capital letter to start a sentence - even if there is only one word and end with a full stop 'Pratt.' or are you using 'pratt' as your signature?

[Loaded]

Hey hippo,

A sentence contains at least a subject and verb and is used to communicate a complete idea. One word won't cut it.

What's 'rocket surgery'? LoLs 55555555555555

Anyway, you're boring. Leave me alone.

[PeaceBlondie]

We are discussing fine points of grammar, but there's no excuse for being so-called "grammar Nazis" or insults. Any more insults get punished. Hey, everybody; go grab a coffee or a cup of coffee. Who's counting?

[mbkudu]

B!tch bedduh have my money! The noun that always gets them is 'money'. Money is uncountable. Yeah right.

[Cuban]

> It's not rocket surgery!

I love it - my new favorite saying. It sounds much more complex than "rocket science" which is just the balistic curve and some special thrust provision.

You teachers are real wordy geeks - much more highly strung than any other forum here, wow!

I doubt my IQ is high enough to remain here much longer, I need a more coffee.

[withnail]

Yes Withnail, you are correct if you are teaching within the confines of your own culture. All the books mentioned were written by western linguists for native speakers or speakers with knowledge beyond basic levels. You are teaching to non native speakers with limited western cultural knowledge who do not necessarily relate a coffee to a cup of coffee without clarification. I believe the statement should be clarified and it is wrong to assume that a student would understand what you mean. Ok here is an example of the need for cultural understanding, the word ‘gay’ once meant happy, it was then used as a term for a homosexual, but now it is used amongst today’s youth to describe someone or some object that is uncool or untrendy. Without explanation the phrase ‘that is so gay,’ could be misinterpreted. (This is purely a linguistic observation and detached from any social implications) Unfortunately I am not bilingual so cannot give an example of a phrase that could seem obvious to a native speak of an Asian culture but ambiguous to a western speaker learning a second language such as Thai. Perhaps someone on the forum could do so. The original question asked if there was anything wrong with the statement ‘ would you like a coffee?’ and I would argue that it is ambiguous and therefore need clarification.

Either it's right or it's wrong, there's no if, and in this case it's right. Two of the books I quoted are, in fact, student's course books for pre-intermediate to intermediate students. The book twschw quoted was the elementary book in the same series.

I agree it needs to be dealt with carefully and clarified, which I mentioned in post number two in this thread. It needn't be brought up at a beginner/elementary level.

However, it is 100% correct and I can't understand why this is being debated.

[MacMac]

Either it's right or it's wrong, there's no if, and in this case it's right.

This is untrue, grammar is not an exact science because language is fluid, unlike rocket surgery which I guess is an exact science, although I am not sure there is much call for surgery on an ingredient for a salad. Linguists are always debating on what should be considered correct grammar. This is also true of the dictionary definition of any word because there is no absolute authority on language.

You might say that the beauty of language is that debate such as this one are possible due to differing opinions on language.

[MacMac]

The original question asked if there was anything wrong with the statement ‘ would you like a coffee?’ and I would argue that it is ambiguous and therefore need clarification.

Are you a teacher? When you teach countable and uncountable nouns, you point out that some can be both countable and uncountable and give examples. Tell students that coffee is not countable and then ask them why I can go to Starbucks and order 'Two coffees'. You may find out that some students work it out for themselves and say something like "You mean 'Two cups of coffee". It's not rocket surgery!

So when I show my students these two pictures they can answer "It's a coffee."?

No, one is a jug and the other is a cup, it's all to do with context.

I'll test you tomorrow.

Will you?

pratt

'pratt' - 0/10. You need a capital letter to start a sentence - even if there is only one word and end with a full stop 'Pratt.' or are you using 'pratt' as your signature?

Hi Mr Hippo

I am not a teacher but I hope to start a PGDE next year. One of the reason I read this form is because I would like to be a primary school teacher in Thailand and this forum has been a great source of information. As for the point about rocket surgery, I never argued that it was I argued that it needs clarification when teaching such a sentence. Some would argue it is a lazy use of the language and therefore incorrect others would argue it is a creative use of the language and language should be manipulated to meet our need. Whatever your standpoint the sentence needs clarification to be understood by anyone new to the language.

[PeaceBlondie]

Either it's right or it's wrong, there's no if, and in this case it's right.

This is untrue, grammar is not an exact science because language is fluid, unlike rocket surgery which I guess is an exact science, although I am not sure there is much call for surgery on an ingredient for a salad. Linguists are always debating on what should be considered correct grammar. This is also true of the dictionary definition of any word because there is no absolute authority on language.

You might say that the beauty of language is that debate such as this one are possible due to differing opinions on language.

macmac, maybe we were trying to refute the inverse of a logical fallacy.

We started with a statement that "two coffees" is grammatically wrong because the OP said so, and that the OP had never seen such a usage in all his many years of teaching and studying grammar. We have shown that two coffees is perfectly fine grammar, because coffee is both a countable and an uncountable noun. While grammar is not an exact science, a noun can be both countable and uncountable. At the expense of disagreeing with the OP, many of us think his opening post was dead wrong, and that Americans and Brits who count coffees are correct.

But linquiniists can debate the salad.

[withnail]

Either it's right or it's wrong, there's no if, and in this case it's right.

This is untrue, grammar is not an exact science because language is fluid, unlike rocket surgery which I guess is an exact science, although I am not sure there is much call for surgery on an ingredient for a salad. Linguists are always debating on what should be considered correct grammar. This is also true of the dictionary definition of any word because there is no absolute authority on language.

You might say that the beauty of language is that debate such as this one are possible due to differing opinions on language.

I didn't say anything about grammar, it referred to the phrase in question. I am aware that language is fluid, but for now this usage is most definitely correct. Would you correct a student for saying it? You certainly shouldn't. I'm not saying any more about it now. I think it's ridiculous that this has gone on this long.

[MacMac]

macmac, maybe we were trying to refute the inverse of a logical fallacy.

Hi PeaceBlondie,

That was a rather Chomsky/Hallidayesc statement to make . But if you mean the royal 'we' then only to an extent. The logic on which I based my cultural and some of the linguistic arguments was based on Ron Carters theories. I am sure he would be devastated to find out his theories were routed in a logical fallacy. Of course you could argue that I have misinterpreted his theorise but that is a whole new debate. As for the grammatical point, point taken. I think I suffer from a common disease called 'like to have the last word' or possibly a more terminal disease called ' hate to be wrong,' but hey life is a learning process.

Anyway it is good to finally put something on the forum after too many years as a lurker and don't worry I am not normally this anal, well I hope I am not.

Edited April 2, 2008 by MacMac

[mbkudu]

I think it's ridiculous that this has gone on this long.

Absofukinlutely. I'll drink to that.

[Loaded]

We are discussing fine points of grammar, but there's no excuse for being so-called "grammar Nazis" or insults. Any more insults get punished. Hey, everybody; go grab a coffee or a cup of coffee. Who's counting?

I ask for fogiveness. In my defence I request the jury to view Post 17 when I was without notice or invitation subjected to a violation of my ego. I am always right and live without flaw. Some people don't understand this.

Satu

[Ijustwannateach]

Yep, yep, I'm going to have to say it again: I love you guys!

[IMA_FARANG]

Would you like a coffee should be perfectly acceptable. It's true that it might be more correct to ask would you like a cup of coffee, but the a cup is understood. It would be especially true if the person who asked the question was standing in front of a tray of cups of coffee and was offering one to someone. You would not have to say a cup of coffee, because the cups would be evident in front of him.

If you suppose would you like a coffee is wrong, then isn't asking a friend in a bar, "Would you like a beer?" also wrong?

Basically it comes down to the difference between the "Queen's English" you would use in a formal situation and what you might say in a casual conversation among friends.

And, just for the person who wote the bit about Americans basterdising the English language...here's a true story. I was working in Saudi Arabia with a bunch of telephone operators that were Brits. They always told us we didn't speak English, just American. They complained we used to many slang words. One of them had just said that to me for about the hundreth time. THen he turned to his friend, also British, and said, "Just like last night that bloody advert on the telly". No slang there, right?

[Cuban]

> "Just like last night that bloody advert on the telly". No slang there, right?

Correct, no slang but use of abbreviations for the words "advertisement" and "television receiver". q.e.d

Slang is not the same as a colloquialism.

e.g. Did you see that ad on the box last night for Ford's new jam jar?

Abbreviation for advertisment:Ad.

Colloquialism for television receiver:The Box.

Slang for car:Jam jar.