Would This Be Illegal

[LivinLOS]

Thinking about answers to the long stay visa question...

Suppose Hull does keep issueing Non Imm O's in the way they do.

Now suppose a person residing in Thailand and wishing to continue to reside in Thailand has 2 passports. This is quite common and totally legal, one of the reasons you can ask for 2 passports is to allow visa processing in one passport while travelling or using the second for identity proof.

I am lead to believe Hull issues Non Imm O's via post. I am also lead to believe that they automatically refuse any applications that arrive carrying a Thai post stamp. However is it illegal to use a mail forwarding service or family member in Europe to post a passport on ??? Does the non imm O application forms have anything that explicitly states you must not be in Thailand or must be present at the address you use in the UK ??

Then assume that all is well with the above....

What happens when a person with 2 passports travels to another local SEA country via a land border ?? Obviously stamps into and out of the neighbouring country may need to be inspected but as far as I understand there is no requirement that you use the same passport to re enter. Thats the whole point of embassies allowing you two (this question could even be more confusing when you consider a dual nationality person as they have the legal right to travel with whatever passport they choose)... Of course a short haul international flight would make this moot as arriving at international desk there is almost never a check of previous embarkation stamps (as they dont exist for most western countries)..

Sure seems like a legal way to a non imm O if there is not an explicit instruction that you must be in the country (UK) at time of application at Hull.. What happens when a 2 passport person applies to hull and has an overseas emergency, surely he must be allowed the right of travel and in turn the right to apply and not be present in the UK under certain curcumstances during an application process.

Just thinking out load.

[LivinLOS]

OK Axel has just answered part of this question in another thread (spooky timing)

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=0entry182232

So my next line of thought would be... If a Brit is staying in Thailand he is not allowed residency.. So he is not a resident of Thailand.. He still maintains a UK address.. If he is not a resident of Thailand he has to be a resident of somewhere presumably (How does one define residency ?? PT's have to be outside the UK more than a certain amount of days in any one year IIRC) so where is a person using tourist visa's in Thailand a resident of ??

I think the quite Axel has posted clearly states thatthis would be pushing your luck and not the way the law is intended even if it would probably work.

[kenkannif]

Basically mate you can't argue the toss with Imm so even if it was basically legit, they'd just null and void it if they busted you (or wanted to)!

I know people that have got away with it (although Hull's the last place to use as they always thoroughly check Hull and Houston exit/entry stamps!), but I wouldn't advise it!

[Axel]

OK Axel has just answered part of this question in another thread (spooky timing)

spooky it is.

Nothing is guaranteed in visa-biz. Now my own experience with Thai consulates is limited, as I am in BKK for many years on yearly extension.

For my first non-mm B (plus O's for the family) I sent application, letter and p/ports to my branch office in Germany (NOT from Thailand) using the branch-office address as my address. The local manager went in person and got everything within half a day. (OK this was years ago)

My son is studying close to Frankfurt. Visited the local consulate in person and got his visa. (I mentioned previously he applied for B and finally got an Ed). He went before to another consulate some 150 km away, no problem, because he was there in person.

As for two p/ports, I use them all the time. Let's say for PRC I go myself to their office in Hong Kong, they glance through the p/port, don't find a HKG-entry-chop and tell me: "You are not here, cannot give visa." Once shown the second p/port with HKG-entry, everything is ok. Similar I had in the past with Taiwan, recently with India (India embassy in BKK wants to see your Thai WP, before accepting application from a non-Thai)

So the first rule on 'residing', you must be there. If you go with an non-Malaysian p/port to the Thai consulate in Penang, it will be the same. They check your Malaysian entry-stamp to make sure you are in country.

I see no problem having stayed in LoS on a visa in p/port a), leaving the country and returning with p/port 'b) on a new visa. HOWEVER, I would not use p/port a) again in LoS, because this one is in the computer.

Myself, I use one p/port which got only Thai-stamps, no other country. But then, I always enter Thailand on re-entry permit thorugh BKK-airport, never over a land-border.

[astral]

It will probably work for any consulate that accepts postal applications.

However you will need to use an address in the country and have your mail forwarded to the consulate and back to Thailand.

There is no way it would work with a Thai address.

Having said all that, you are skating on thin ice, and could be deported and black listed if caught.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It will probably work for any consulate that accepts postal applications.

However you will need to use an address in the country and have your mail forwarded to the consulate and back to Thailand.

There is no way it would work with a Thai address.

Having said all that, you are skating on thin ice, and could be deported and black listed if caught.

The absence of exit and arrival stamps will ALWAYS raise questions.

[britmaveric]

I'd have to agree with Dr. - no entry/exit stamps you will have a lot of explaining to do since this normally means illegal entry. (one thing immigration officers check are the stamps)

[LivinLOS]

However would those questions not be effectively answered when you show them both passports ?? My right to use whatever nationality I wish (dual national) is not effected.

I agree with the information posted by Axel it would be questionable to apply in the UK if you are not in the UK (but you may still be a resident as you are only a tourist here) and its not something I would tend to pursue (my multiple passports cause enouh head scratching... I have no desire to create more)..

[lopburi3]

However would those questions not be effectively answered when you show them both passports ?? My right to use whatever nationality I wish (dual national) is not effected.

I agree with the information posted by Axel it would be questionable to apply in the UK if you are not in the UK (but you may still be a resident as you are only a tourist here) and its not something I would tend to pursue (my multiple passports cause enouh head scratching... I have no desire to create more)..

I believe they would cite the home page of Div 3 Immigration:

Visa that have not been obtained by the traveller personally are considered incomplete documents. The passport holder will not be allowed to stay in Thailand according to the visa but only according to the rights of the nationality of the passport holder

[Axel]

Yes, all above is a bit complicated. Of course you will always have LoS entry and exit stamps.

Let's say with a new German or UK-passport you obtained a visa for Thailand in the UK and arrive in BKK. This passport will have no exit stamp from UK, as EU-p\ports are not stamped. So the only thing in there is the Visa for Thailand and at entry point the "permitted to stay until ....." by Thai immigration.

Nothing illegal there.

Why I am using two p/ports. Some visa for third countries I apply for in Europe.

Ex., I have the pleasure to go to Putin country, so I send one p\port to one of my offices in Europe and stay with the other one in Thailand (This one has all Thai chops) and I do not want to be cought in Thailand without a passport.

When the visa for Russia is clear, the passport is returned to BKK from where I leave the country and get the exit stamp by Thai-immigration. Arriving in Moscow I present the other one to which the visa for Russia is connected. I leave Russia on this one, arrive back in Thailand, using the other one which has a re-entry permit.

Absolutely above board and nothing illegal. But as Dr. said, there must be a exit-stamp from Thailand and they give me an entry-chop next to it, based on the re-entry permit.

[LivinLOS]

Visa that have not been obtained by the traveller personally are considered incomplete documents. The passport holder will not be allowed to stay in Thailand according to the visa but only according to the rights of the nationality of the passport holder

I clearly see your point but if you accept postal applications you accept postal applications.. They are either a valid way to apply or not.

Axel I was thinking of an almost identical setup to make entry and exit chops match, its basically the switch in no mans land that makes this possible.. While this may cause difficulty somewhere like Sadao or Ranong where all arrivals are coming from a local SEA country I would bet my back teeth that no one would blink if you did an international flight to KL / Singapore etc... Coming back through immigration with the new chopless passport they would just assume you were just arriving.. Once in the country all chops would match.

[astral]

The absence of exit and arrival stamps will ALWAYS raise questions.

Not true in all countries.

Let's say with a new German or UK-passport you obtained a visa for Thailand in the UK and arrive in BKK. This passport will have no exit stamp from UK, as EU-p\ports are not stamped. So the only thing in there is the Visa for Thailand and at entry point the "permitted to stay until ....." by Thai immigration.

Nothing illegal there.

Europe is not stamp happy like Asia.

[lopburi3]

Visa that have not been obtained by the traveller personally are considered incomplete documents. The passport holder will not be allowed to stay in Thailand according to the visa but only according to the rights of the nationality of the passport holder

I clearly see your point but if you accept postal applications you accept postal applications.. They are either a valid way to apply or not.

Axel I was thinking of an almost identical setup to make entry and exit chops match, its basically the switch in no mans land that makes this possible.. While this may cause difficulty somewhere like Sadao or Ranong where all arrivals are coming from a local SEA country I would bet my back teeth that no one would blink if you did an international flight to KL / Singapore etc... Coming back through immigration with the new chopless passport they would just assume you were just arriving.. Once in the country all chops would match.

I believe "personally" would be defined as being personally located within the consular service area.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

However would those questions not be effectively answered when you show them both passports ?? My right to use whatever nationality I wish (dual national) is not effected.

I agree with the information posted by Axel it would be questionable to apply in the UK if you are not in the UK (but you may still be a resident as you are only a tourist here) and its not something I would tend to pursue (my multiple passports cause enouh head scratching... I have no desire to create more)..

I believe they would cite the home page of Div 3 Immigration:

Visa that have not been obtained by the traveller personally are considered incomplete documents. The passport holder will not be allowed to stay in Thailand according to the visa but only according to the rights of the nationality of the passport holder

" personally " would be the keyword they'll use. Showing them both passports, and a look at the Immigration computer would confirm that the punter was in Thailand while the passport was ' on holidays ' getting a Thai visa.

[Axel]

I believe "personally" would be defined as being personally located within the consular service area.

Precise and correct, as always lopburi3.

The visa application form for Thailand request to show details of present address incl. phone numbers etc. as well as permanent address (if different from present)

This document the applicant signs to state as true and correct.

I said it before, in Asia the consulats check your p\port for entry stamp. Like my

experience in HKG, "You are not here, Sir".

Me: "I am in front of you, look".

"This might be Sir, but your passport says, you are not here."

I thought that's hilarious, but legally correct.

BTW, HKG issues Travel documents to regular visitors, and stamp this one i.o. the passport. So in my regular p/port I have neither entry- nor exit chop of HKG.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I believe "personally" would be defined as being personally located within the consular service area.

Precise and correct, as always lopburi3.

The visa application form for Thailand request to show details of present address incl. phone numbers etc. as well as permanent address (if different from present)

This document the applicant signs to state as true and correct.

I said it before, in Asia the consulats check your p\port for entry stamp. Like my

experience in HKG, "You are not here, Sir".

Me: "I am in front of you, look".

"This might be Sir, but your passport says, you are not here."

I thought that's hilarious, but legally correct.

BTW, HKG issues Travel documents to regular visitors, and stamp this one i.o. the passport. So in my regular p/port I have neither entry- nor exit chop of HKG.

Back to the drawingboard. At least the members have active minds.

[Axel]

Aah Dr., we have been skating on thin ice, so a legal remark became necessary.

Guess, the whole issue is similar to obtaining a driving licence by giving your friend's or family's address as your own. Absolutely not correct to do it.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Aah Dr., we have been skating on thin ice, so a legal remark became necessary.

Guess, the whole issue is similar to obtaining a driving licence by giving your friend's or family's address as your own. Absolutely not correct to do it.

And a bit of a bugger if one gets sprung doing it.