Would It Work?

[RAZZELL]

Bangkok is seemingly home to a never-ending number of foreign "stringers" and "freelance" photographers ...despite this I've not been able to find an independent news or press agency that sells or syndicates stories to news organisations around the world.

Something like a Splash news in the USA or Rexfeatures in the UK.

With all that goes on in Thailand (countless foreign drug smuggler's, death's, suicides, rapes, murders, and military coups..oh, and not forgetting the man who married a snake ) plus the proximity to other neighbouring countries, it just seems there's a massive gap in the market.

Any thought's?

RAZZ

Edited April 14, 2008 by RAZZELL

[Jimjim]

If you've got money to burn, just give it a try. Of course it could work or not work. With something like this that's untested you never know. But probably the photographers and freelancers here are connected with the big international news agencies and don't need to go through a middle man. Just a thought.

[RAZZELL]

If you've got money to burn, just give it a try. Of course it could work or not work. With something like this that's untested you never know. But probably the photographers and freelancers here are connected with the big international news agencies and don't need to go through a middle man. Just a thought.

Big international news agency's are not interested in "Man jumps off a building" in Pattaya. But the man's local newspaper in London, New York, Paris or Stockholm etc might be

Prime example being the Katherine Horton murder in Koh Samui and the recent Swedish girl Hanna Backlund in Phuket. These were front page stories in their respective countries for days.

Financially, I don't think it would cost a fortune to set-up...An office, a few apple mac's, a few staff who could speak a couple of languages.

You could also start syndicating pics from other agency's, and be their "man in Thailand" as it were. Or even sell the stories from other publications translated into English.

A few years ago I used to know a guy who lived in the South of France who was a "stringer". He bought the Nice Matin every morning, translated the decent stories into English and sent them to the UK...he made money on any of the celeb tittle-tattle.

The main thing would you'd be charging Western, or maybe above Western prices because of the "exclusivity" of your content...And the fact that Thailand is 6,000 miles away from Europe and takes the best part of a day to get to.

RAZZ

Edited April 14, 2008 by RAZZELL

[photojourn]

Razz it's not exactly as you think.

Andrew Chant and Andrew Drummond in BKK both have international connections and both help to sell marketable stories that other freelancers might be on the spot to cover.

I'm not aware of anyone running a full bureau though.

I ran a photo and news bureau for a French organisation in Indonesia for eight years just prior to coming to Thailand and it's not as easy as you think it is. To be professional and reactive you need more than just a couple of Macs.

Let me give you an example.

I was in Mae Hong Song last week for the Poi Sang Long festival. I had ten photo's processed as hi and lo resolution images embedded with PITC copyright and caption information and had cut seven minutes of video to a 1.40 minute 768 x 576 DV package in PAL format at 25 fps and 57.60 mbits/sec, plus had written a 400-plus word editorial all in just over an hour after retuning to my hotel.

Editorial and photo's can be seen here: http://jlefevre.bigblog.com.au

The whole lot was ready to go out by 11.30 am. Ten lo-res images were attached to a sample of the editorial and some freeze frames from the video clips and these were then sent to a wide list of media contacts in Australia, New Zealand, USA, UK, and Japan that I have from running the bureau in Indonesia and more than 20 years of journalism.

This is the sort of speed you need if you are going to compete in the news market. To me, having video, stills and editorial ready to rock 'n' roll in less than 90-minutes working alone and in the field was pretty good.

However budget constraints and the general dumbing down of populations all around the world, especially in the major Western nations of USA, UK, Australia, and Canada mean a reluctance by news editors to take anything but news agency (AP, AFP, Reuters, etc) material. There has also been a global tightening up of budgets plus an incredible growth in the number of "I saw it all" people happy to give news footage away to networks and publications just so they see their name in print or as a byline on YouTube, MSN video, etc.

For all of these reasons and many others - not the least be the propensity for some news-wires to happily take material from Thai writers - irrespective of whether it is accurate or not, means that setting up a true bureau ala Rex, Sigma, SIPA, GP, requires more than you think.

If you've got the dollars, give me a holla and I'll come and set it up for you. But it's a project that requires commitment and the results need to be better than what the freelancers and stringers get now or else there is no reason using the bureau and forfeiting a sizable chunk of the commission bureaux take.

[RAZZELL]

Razz it's not exactly as you think.

Andrew Chant and Andrew Drummond in BKK both have international connections and both help to sell marketable stories that other freelancers might be on the spot to cover.

I'm not aware of anyone running a full bureau though.

Photojourn,

Thanks for your informed response. Of course I understand the need for speed, and it's not as easy as I made out...Although I agree with you, "The agencies" are killing it for freelancers, especially for general news stories.

This is how I tried to explain it to a couple of AFP/Getty guys in London:

"Picture desk's don't give a ****. A photo's of no more interest to them than a cup of tea...What would you rather pay for a cup of tea? Nothing? Or £150?"

(Although the service is not free...I'm sure you get my drift )

However, with all due respect to Chant and Drummond...they're not exactly proactive. When Ken Bigley was kidnapped in Iraq, the News of the World put Drummond on order to find his Thai wife. A mate of mine was sent over for Kent News and Pictures.

Drummond got onto his PI, found her and they had it in the bag within a few days. The result - a NOTW splash - for a couple of shifts as opposed to £10k or more if you'd done it yourself.

Although I don't know this guy...I like what he's been up to:

http://www.reddoornews.com/

E.g, first interview with Dr Hasnat Khan (ex bf of Princess Diana) and first live pics of Gary Glitter.

And just to add I'm no Rupert Murdoch or Mark Getty...But I wouldn't mind being one one day :D

RAZZ

P.S. It'd be interesting to meet up for a beer next time I'm in BKK.

[cclub75]

This is the sort of speed you need if you are going to compete in the news market.

Well the magazine market could be more appropriate.

Anyway, I think the factor are clear :

-budget constraints like you said

-and also the fact that news editors don't give a rat shit about Vietnam, Thailand, Laos...

That's the harsh reality.

Okay sometimes, there is a news (murder, tsunami etc.) But not really enough to give job to a full time local bureau.

As for the magazine part, okay but when you have done one part on Angkor, or the bars in BKK, I mean... that's it. And the competition is so high (how many "traveler-free-lance-journalist" ?)

[RAZZELL]

-and also the fact that news editors don't give a rat shit about Vietnam, Thailand, Laos...

That's the harsh reality.

Okay sometimes, there is a news (murder, tsunami etc.) But not really enough to give job to a full time local bureau.

As for the magazine part, okay but when you have done one part on Angkor, or the bars in BKK, I mean... that's it. And the competition is so high (how many "traveler-free-lance-journalist" ?)

Absolutely spot on about western national newspapers and TV not giving a rat shit about Vietnam, Thailand, Laos

However, there's a whole plethora of local and regional news outlet's who do care about a pissed-up holiday maker dying in a car crash/topping himself over a bargirl/getting arrested for drug smuggling.

And all those £50, $50, €50 can add up

I think there's obviously room for generic "asian lifestyle pics" as well.

Finally, I know there are very strict "libel-style" laws in Thailand, hence no real "investigative journalism"...That and the likelihood of ending up face down floating in the "klong" .

Although, I've seen some Thai celeb's "papped" in magazines...and the photo's were atrocious.

What about privacy laws with regard's to "pap photo's"?

RAZZ

Edited April 14, 2008 by RAZZELL

[cclub75]

However, there's a whole plethora of local and regional news outlet's who do care about a pissed-up holiday maker dying in a car crash/topping himself over a bargirl/getting arrested for drug smuggling.

And all those £50, $50, €50 can add up

I think there's obviously room for generic "asian lifestyle pics" as well.

£50, $50, €50 would do the trick for... a freelancer, right ?

However, it could be possible to play the "syndication" through the nationality card.

A freelancer has usually some personal connexions on its native market, in some news rooms, magazines, with some editors etc.

Let's take an english speaking freelancer. He can produce a story, but he won't be able to sell it easilly...in France, Germany etc.

So why not imagine a kind of association of people, coming from various western countries. They could syndicate their work, and bring to the association their connexions, commercial contacts from their own country. And translation/adaptation work would be easy for them, accurate and fast to do.

This scheme could bring what usually is missing : volume.

Proximity, i think is a key word for business, all kind of business.

If we put on the side superstars (big names) and large organizations... a french editor for instance from a small or medium magazine won't bother to deal with a "foreign" journalist. And again, it's unlikely that the "foreign" journalist would be able, alone, to put a foot on the french market.

Voila, just an idea. En passant.

[RAZZELL]

However, there's a whole plethora of local and regional news outlet's who do care about a pissed-up holiday maker dying in a car crash/topping himself over a bargirl/getting arrested for drug smuggling.

And all those £50, $50, €50 can add up

I think there's obviously room for generic "asian lifestyle pics" as well.

£50, $50, €50 would do the trick for... a freelancer, right ?

However, it could be possible to play the "syndication" through the nationality card.

A freelancer has usually some personal connexions on its native market, in some news rooms, magazines, with some editors etc.

Let's take an english speaking freelancer. He can produce a story, but he won't be able to sell it easilly...in France, Germany etc.

So why not imagine a kind of association of people, coming from various western countries. They could syndicate their work, and bring to the association their connexions, commercial contacts from their own country. And translation/adaptation work would be easy for them, accurate and fast to do.

This scheme could bring what usually is missing : volume.

Proximity, i think is a key word for business, all kind of business.

If we put on the side superstars (big names) and large organizations... a french editor for instance from a small or medium magazine won't bother to deal with a "foreign" journalist. And again, it's unlikely that the "foreign" journalist would be able, alone, to put a foot on the french market.

Voila, just an idea. En passant.

That is EXACTLY they way I was thinking. Great mind's think alike

Language skill's and a knowledge of various market's would be paramount to making a go of it.

Also, if you said you were XYZ agency based in Bangkok, with an all-sing, all-dancing website, all of a sudden you have a certain gravitas...It doesn't particularly matter that you're a few guy's with mac's and a couple of digi cameras. It's the perception that count's.

And volume is the key. You can produce 1000 news photo's, or 10 features that go nowhere. But if you have 1 big hit...you've cracked it...

Right...who's got the first pic of the Udon Thani man who married a snake?

RAZZ

Edited April 14, 2008 by RAZZELL

[lannarebirth]

Bangkok is seemingly home to a never-ending number of foreign "stringers" and "freelance" photographers ...despite this I've not been able to find an independent news or press agency that sells or syndicates stories to news organisations around the world.

Something like a Splash news in the USA or Rexfeatures in the UK.

With all that goes on in Thailand (countless foreign drug smuggler's, death's, suicides, rapes, murders, and military coups..oh, and not forgetting the man who married a snake ) plus the proximity to other neighbouring countries, it just seems there's a massive gap in the market.

Any thought's?

RAZZ

You mean like this one?

http://www.asiapacificms.com/

Edited April 14, 2008 by lannarebirth

[RAZZELL]

You mean like this one?

http://www.asiapacificms.com/

No...nothing at all like that...

Jane's Defence weekly is not exactly The Sun is it?

RAZZ

[andy1308]

My company already works with a number of Thai publishers (mainly magazines) to syndicate content around the world. It's far from lucrative and it takes a lot of work - in terms of translating and rewriting. I'm not sure how you would deal with the work permit regulations regarding the 'freelancers', not to mention the need to have any journalists on the ground here holding a media card from the Thai government.

Most of the large agencies such as AP, AFP, Reuters, etc - have offices here and any remotely saleable stories will be on the wires before many other news organisations even know what's going on. There is a market for some of the lesser-known stories but it's pretty small, as are the returns.

[RAZZELL]

My company already works with a number of Thai publishers (mainly magazines) to syndicate content around the world. It's far from lucrative and it takes a lot of work - in terms of translating and rewriting. I'm not sure how you would deal with the work permit regulations regarding the 'freelancers', not to mention the need to have any journalists on the ground here holding a media card from the Thai government.

Most of the large agencies such as AP, AFP, Reuters, etc - have offices here and any remotely saleable stories will be on the wires before many other news organisations even know what's going on. There is a market for some of the lesser-known stories but it's pretty small, as are the returns.

Agreed, I see where you're coming from...there's little money in words maybe...but pictures

Reuters/AFP/AP et al aren't going to "pap" Cheryl from Girl's Aloud or Kate Moss in Phuket are they?

And Andy...just by chance there was never an article in the UK trade press about you was there? UKPG or Holdthefrontpage...something like that? I remember reading an article about a guy from your neck of the woods going to Thailand.

With regards to WP - from the little research I've done, you'd have to get yourself acredited as the media representative in Thailand for an agency or newspaper from your home or a.n. other country to enable to get your press card, WP, or set up the company to facilitate this etc

RAZZ

Edited April 15, 2008 by RAZZELL

[andy1308]

Razz. Yes - cover blown. <smiles>

I think for the A-list celebs there is money to be made from pics but if they're that big I think the European agencies will be following them even out here. I think the key would be local contacts and getting the inside info on where these people are staying, and when. I think the 'local rep' solution to the WP/accreditation issue works well but often you need to submit evidence of previous work from that supporting overseas company.

Send me a PM if you want to chat more about this idea, Razz.

[RAZZELL]

Razz. Yes - cover blown. <smiles>

I think for the A-list celebs there is money to be made from pics but if they're that big I think the European agencies will be following them even out here. I think the key would be local contacts and getting the inside info on where these people are staying, and when. I think the 'local rep' solution to the WP/accreditation issue works well but often you need to submit evidence of previous work from that supporting overseas company.

Send me a PM if you want to chat more about this idea, Razz.

Ah...you see...you can never be too careful on internet forums

Andy, it would be nice to hear in greater detail about your experiences of doing business in LOS. When I get the time, i'll drop you a PM.

Have a great day

RAZZ

Edited April 16, 2008 by RAZZELL

[photojourn]

Sorry for the lack of replies. For some reason I wasn't getting notified of replies to this post.

I think the big thing apart from budget cuts at individual publications and TV stations is really what someone said earlier in this thread >>and also the fact that news editors don't give a rat shit about Vietnam, Thailand, Laos... <<

Absolutely spot on. Even Malaysia and Singapore are largely ignored, while Indonesia is marginally more reported on because of the Islamophobia that exists in some countries in the region - despite the fact Indonesia is not an Islamic country like Malaysia.

To work it properly you need to have a network of people throughout the country and contacts who notify you of news when it happens in the places where you don't have people.

You need Thai writers and snappers who will get off their bums and go and investigate something and then get back tot he office and write it quickly instead of sitting around and chatting with their friends and then copying the story from their friends. You also need people who will ask questions and follow up situations.

Then you also need multi-lingual sales staff marketing the photo's and text.

Even photo features are an iffy proposition. Thailand really isn't that interesting a place - apart from occasionally in the South

How many elephant/snake/monkey park stories can the world absorb? Waterfalls and temples are so very

Last month there was the annual Kings Tournament Elephant Polo tournament. In the past "the sixth largest tourism event on the Thai calendar."

But the even has been moved by the sponsors, Anantara Resorts, from down south to the Golden Triangle on the Burmese border where Anantara just so happen to have opened a new 5-star resort. Misleadingly all the promotion material said it was moved to Chiang Rai when in fact it was some 60 plus kilometres from Chiang Rai.

While there is some interest in an event such as this, who in their right mind is going to sit up on the Burmese border with little choice of accommodation apart from a 5-star resort to watch an elephant polo match for five or six days? It's worth 30 seconds on TV ... perhaps an outro on a morning breakfast show and a novelty pic in a few newspapers on a quiet news day.

As a bureau chief I wouldn't send a BKK team or individual to cover the event and as a freelancer living in Chiang Mai it doesn't make economic sense ... not even to cover the first day. The return just wouldn't justify the outlay.

Now if the Burmese army start shooting people again and there is a flood of IDPs over the border, or the rice price increase sees the camps running out of rice, and disease and starvation and malnutrition creeping into the camps then you have something the world *might* take some notice of. But Africa is just heading into another major food shortage so even the latter will be a hard push.

Apart from that you're left covering the occasional Caucasian paedophile or drug trafficker - no one cares about the African's and certainly no Nigerian or Ghanaian newspaper is going to pay for a photo or text of one, and the occasional air craft or bus load of tourists crash. Thankfully neither off which happen to frequently.

Without card carrying local staff you won't get invited to, informed of, or admitted to, the majority of press conferences run by government departments or major corporations as well.

[photojourn]

And Razz, just to highlight the difficulties such a project faces, you have situations such as the following job wanted ad where the person is happy to whore himself for free.

Now what budget conscious editor or published could resist something such as this:

>>Hi there,

I am currently living in Thailand and am interested in using my English writing experience to write a few magazine type articles. I have had some decent experience in writing articles for magazines both experience based and feature based and would be interested in speaking with some magazines based in Thailand or even outside Thailand about Thailand.

I would prefer to do this work from home / near by and would not require payment for the first few articles. Anyone interested send me an email or PM smile.gif

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=184574<<

[JohnPeel]

However, there's a whole plethora of local and regional news outlet's who do care about a pissed-up holiday maker dying in a car crash/topping himself over a bargirl/getting arrested for drug smuggling.

And all those £50, $50, €50 can add up

I think there's obviously room for generic "asian lifestyle pics" as well.

£50, $50, €50 would do the trick for... a freelancer, right ?

However, it could be possible to play the "syndication" through the nationality card.

A freelancer has usually some personal connexions on its native market, in some news rooms, magazines, with some editors etc.

Let's take an english speaking freelancer. He can produce a story, but he won't be able to sell it easilly...in France, Germany etc.

So why not imagine a kind of association of people, coming from various western countries. They could syndicate their work, and bring to the association their connexions, commercial contacts from their own country. And translation/adaptation work would be easy for them, accurate and fast to do.

This scheme could bring what usually is missing : volume.

Proximity, i think is a key word for business, all kind of business.

If we put on the side superstars (big names) and large organizations... a french editor for instance from a small or medium magazine won't bother to deal with a "foreign" journalist. And again, it's unlikely that the "foreign" journalist would be able, alone, to put a foot on the french market.

Voila, just an idea. En passant.

That is EXACTLY they way I was thinking. Great mind's think alike

Language skill's and a knowledge of various market's would be paramount to making a go of it.

Also, if you said you were XYZ agency based in Bangkok, with an all-sing, all-dancing website, all of a sudden you have a certain gravitas...It doesn't particularly matter that you're a few guy's with mac's and a couple of digi cameras. It's the perception that count's.

And volume is the key. You can produce 1000 news photo's, or 10 features that go nowhere. But if you have 1 big hit...you've cracked it...

Right...who's got the first pic of the Udon Thani man who married a snake?

RAZZ

Whoah dont think many people are going to buy the Udon Thani man married to a snake. Also think your comments about Andrew Chant and Andrew Drummond not being pro-active are way off the mark. They can also command very high prices as they did over the Ken Bigley story

[andy1308]

There is money to be made in certain areas if you know your stuff and have the right contacts. I've written a couple of pieces and supplied pictures to trade titles in the UK in the last few months. If you know your stuff and have good contacts anything is possible.

[JohnPeel]

However, with all due respect to Chant and Drummond...they're not exactly proactive. When Ken Bigley was kidnapped in Iraq, the News of the World put Drummond on order to find his Thai wife. A mate of mine was sent over for Kent News and Pictures.

Drummond got onto his PI, found her and they had it in the bag within a few days. The result - a NOTW splash - for a couple of shifts as opposed to £10k or more if you'd done it yourself.

Although I don't know this guy...I like what he's been up to:

http://www.reddoornews.com/

E.g, first interview with Dr Hasnat Khan (ex bf of Princess Diana) and first live pics of Gary Glitter.

And just to add I'm no Rupert Murdoch or Mark Getty...But I wouldn't mind being one one day

RAZZ

P.S. It'd be interesting to meet up for a beer next time I'm in BKK.

Good luck with your proposal Razz but first a little explanation to my last post. Seems you might have to do your homework a little bit more. So Kent News Agency spent a minimum of £5000 sending staff over to Thailand and lost it? And Drummond got the story? What does that tell you? The Kent News Agency can only dream of what they didnt get, i guess.

Drummond undercharged? I doubt it. If he used a PI I am sure that man was rewarded too.

You also appear not to know Simon at Red Door News. You really have to study the news situation in Asia a little bit more. Journalists have come and gone. Even good ones from Fleet St. Andy Chant I understand also works for Splash and Big Pictures!

Also most of London if not Bangkok knows that Andy Drummond and Andy Chant tracked down Gary Glitter for NotW.

But if you intend to come to make a living in Thailand for the tabloids prepare for a lot of flack. And here on ThaiVisa.com too.

And of course the problems about being pro-active is that like Drummond you get sued for libel.

[RAZZELL]

Good luck with your proposal Razz but first a little explanation to my last post. Seems you might have to do your homework a little bit more. So Kent News Agency spent a minimum of £5000 sending staff over to Thailand and lost it? And Drummond got the story? What does that tell you? The Kent News Agency can only dream of what they didnt get, i guess.

Drummond undercharged? I doubt it. If he used a PI I am sure that man was rewarded too.

You also appear not to know Simon at Red Door News. You really have to study the news situation in Asia a little bit more. Journalists have come and gone. Even good ones from Fleet St. Andy Chant I understand also works for Splash and Big Pictures!

Also most of London if not Bangkok knows that Andy Drummond and Andy Chant tracked down Gary Glitter for NotW.

But if you intend to come to make a living in Thailand for the tabloids prepare for a lot of flack. And here on ThaiVisa.com too.

And of course the problems about being pro-active is that like Drummond you get sued for libel.

You didn't understand my post.

A KNP photographer was sent on order by the NOTW to come to Thailand to work with Drummond, who was also on order. "On order" the newspaper will pick up your expenses. They might also pay you "extra" on what result's you get.

Maybe Drummond got load's of money for getting a result...maybe he didn't. But he certainly didn't approach the NOTW with the story"in the bag" and sell it.

Chant and Drummond tracked down Glitter with a NOTW snapper called Rod Todd...Ask him what he think's about them

As to your second point, I certainly don't profess to know Asia or Thailand all that well. A news or photo agency is just an idea.

Chant & Drummond have been there over 10 years...of course they'd know what they're doing... I didn't say they didn't.

But maybe someone can do it it differently

RAZZ

[RAZZELL]

And of course the problems about being pro-active is that like Drummond you get sued for libel.

I think you mean he makes thing's up

RAZZ

[photojourn]

One of the biggest problems with dealing with overseas media that you haven't dealt with before is getting paid.

When Douglas shot Poretsky in Chiang Mai I contacted media in Hawaii who I haven't dealt with before with a news alert.

The alert outlined what had happened and asked if anyone wanted material.

Shayne Enright from KITV, who I gather is the director of news there, emailed back asking what was available.

Over the day I had shot and cut down to a 4 minute tape the:-

Scene of the shooting

Hotel where the victim was staying

Chiang Mai police headquarters

Interview with the shooter - He says on tape when asked why he shot Mr Poretsky, "I didn't like him"

Chiang Mai court house

Chiang Mai prison

This included smuggling a camera into the police cells to get the taped confession. I had also written the story and had hi-res stills.

Shayne Enright asked for this to be sent. Which it was. He also asked for the hi-res still and the editorial. By this stage it had run to an 18-hour day - including talking to the stations reporters..

The next day the shooter was in court. KITV didn't want any more vision and said to send an invoice.

I sent them a standard day shoot invoice of $700 due in 7 days.

After receiving the invoice Shayne Enright emailed back saying that they only pay their stringers $150 for vision.

Well I'm not one of their stringers and for the shoot I had to pay translators, transport and internet transmission charges. On this score $150 doesn't even cover my operating costs, let alone standing costs.

It's purely ridiculous and the first time I've come across this.

I offered KITV4 a discount of $200 but Shayne Enright just emailed back saying that's what they pay and that's it.

The material is still on KITV4s website and KITV Hawaii won't pay.

Edited April 26, 2008 by photojourn

[RAZZELL]

The material is still on KITV4s website and KITV Hawaii won't pay.

Send them a solicitor's letter or take them to court.

RAZZ

[andy1308]

One of the biggest problems with dealing with overseas media that you haven't dealt with before is getting paid.

When Douglas shot Poretsky in Chiang Mai I contacted media in Hawaii who I haven't dealt with before with a news alert.

The alert outlined what had happened and asked if anyone wanted material.

Shayne Enright from KITV, who I gather is the director of news there, emailed back asking what was available.

Over the day I had shot and cut down to a 4 minute tape the:-

Scene of the shooting

Hotel where the victim was staying

Chiang Mai police headquarters

Interview with the shooter - He says on tape when asked why he shot Mr Poretsky, "I didn't like him"

Chiang Mai court house

Chiang Mai prison

This included smuggling a camera into the police cells to get the taped confession. I had also written the story and had hi-res stills.

Shayne Enright asked for this to be sent. Which it was. He also asked for the hi-res still and the editorial. By this stage it had run to an 18-hour day - including talking to the stations reporters..

The next day the shooter was in court. KITV didn't want any more vision and said to send an invoice.

I sent them a standard day shoot invoice of $700 due in 7 days.

After receiving the invoice Shayne Enright emailed back saying that they only pay their stringers $150 for vision.

Well I'm not one of their stringers and for the shoot I had to pay translators, transport and internet transmission charges. On this score $150 doesn't even cover my operating costs, let alone standing costs.

It's purely ridiculous and the first time I've come across this.

I offered KITV4 a discount of $200 but Shayne Enright just emailed back saying that's what they pay and that's it.

The material is still on KITV4s website and KITV Hawaii won't pay.

Just a question. Did you news alert also include the price you were expecting? My experience both as a freelancer and when employing freelancers is to always state the costs before commissioning a piece or starting to write one. I don't think any news organisation is going to say 'go ahead, do this story' without knowing the potential costs, and even more so with someone they've not dealt with. Similarly I would never consider commissioning, for example, a photographer in the U.S., without first agreeing costs.

[photojourn]

One of the biggest problems with dealing with overseas media that you haven't dealt with before is getting paid.

When Douglas shot Poretsky in Chiang Mai I contacted media in Hawaii who I haven't dealt with before with a news alert.

The alert outlined what had happened and asked if anyone wanted material.

Shayne Enright from KITV, who I gather is the director of news there, emailed back asking what was available.

Over the day I had shot and cut down to a 4 minute tape the:-

Scene of the shooting

Hotel where the victim was staying

Chiang Mai police headquarters

Interview with the shooter - He says on tape when asked why he shot Mr Poretsky, "I didn't like him"

Chiang Mai court house

Chiang Mai prison

This included smuggling a camera into the police cells to get the taped confession. I had also written the story and had hi-res stills.

Shayne Enright asked for this to be sent. Which it was. He also asked for the hi-res still and the editorial. By this stage it had run to an 18-hour day - including talking to the stations reporters..

The next day the shooter was in court. KITV didn't want any more vision and said to send an invoice.

I sent them a standard day shoot invoice of $700 due in 7 days.

After receiving the invoice Shayne Enright emailed back saying that they only pay their stringers $150 for vision.

Well I'm not one of their stringers and for the shoot I had to pay translators, transport and internet transmission charges. On this score $150 doesn't even cover my operating costs, let alone standing costs.

It's purely ridiculous and the first time I've come across this.

I offered KITV4 a discount of $200 but Shayne Enright just emailed back saying that's what they pay and that's it.

The material is still on KITV4s website and KITV Hawaii won't pay.

Just a question. Did you news alert also include the price you were expecting? My experience both as a freelancer and when employing freelancers is to always state the costs before commissioning a piece or starting to write one. I don't think any news organisation is going to say 'go ahead, do this story' without knowing the potential costs, and even more so with someone they've not dealt with. Similarly I would never consider commissioning, for example, a photographer in the U.S., without first agreeing costs.

No it didn't contain the costs. It had the outline of the story and the when they responded with interest they were told what was going to be shot on the day. A five location shoot.

It actually worked out better than planned because I got a camera into the police cells were the shooter said on tape that he shot the tourist because "I didn't like him" ... "he was crazy".

The Aussie stations (and papers) asked how much for the package and some agreed and some declined.

KITV4 and KGMB9 were told the contents of the material and both just said "send it".

The Aussie media have all paid. KITV4 Hawaii won't pay. KGMB9 Hawai haven't paid as yet either.

Thing is, it's not the buyer who sets the price. They might set the level they are prepared to pay up to but the seller is the one who sets the price. No use going to the Honda dealer and grabbing a car and saying send me an invoice and then complaining about the cost afterwards.

It's also not like they are being charged above market rates.

But it highlights the problems of setting up an agency in Thailand. A legal judgement in Thailand worries who?

The nice thing here is that the use of the unpaid vision is a breach of copyright and leaves the station open to prosecution by the US District Attorney and fines of $40,000 for each use of the material.

As it's still on their website "each use" could be deemed each visit to that website.

As a former bureau chief, COS and editor, I have fairly realistic expectations of how much I'm going to pay for a photo, text or vision when buying and how much its worth when selling.

$150 for cat up a treee rescue maybe, but I don't expect to pay that for Burmese soldiers shooting monks or plane crash and survivor vision and stories or material from halfway around the world that someone spends a day or more working on.

[JohnPeel]

One of the biggest problems with dealing with overseas media that you haven't dealt with before is getting paid.

When Douglas shot Poretsky in Chiang Mai I contacted media in Hawaii who I haven't dealt with before with a news alert.

The alert outlined what had happened and asked if anyone wanted material.

Shayne Enright from KITV, who I gather is the director of news there, emailed back asking what was available.

Over the day I had shot and cut down to a 4 minute tape the:-

Scene of the shooting

Hotel where the victim was staying

Chiang Mai police headquarters

Interview with the shooter - He says on tape when asked why he shot Mr Poretsky, "I didn't like him"

Chiang Mai court house

Chiang Mai prison

This included smuggling a camera into the police cells to get the taped confession. I had also written the story and had hi-res stills.

Shayne Enright asked for this to be sent. Which it was. He also asked for the hi-res still and the editorial. By this stage it had run to an 18-hour day - including talking to the stations reporters..

The next day the shooter was in court. KITV didn't want any more vision and said to send an invoice.

I sent them a standard day shoot invoice of $700 due in 7 days.

After receiving the invoice Shayne Enright emailed back saying that they only pay their stringers $150 for vision.

Well I'm not one of their stringers and for the shoot I had to pay translators, transport and internet transmission charges. On this score $150 doesn't even cover my operating costs, let alone standing costs.

It's purely ridiculous and the first time I've come across this.

I offered KITV4 a discount of $200 but Shayne Enright just emailed back saying that's what they pay and that's it.

The material is still on KITV4s website and KITV Hawaii won't pay.

Just a question. Did you news alert also include the price you were expecting? My experience both as a freelancer and when employing freelancers is to always state the costs before commissioning a piece or starting to write one. I don't think any news organisation is going to say 'go ahead, do this story' without knowing the potential costs, and even more so with someone they've not dealt with. Similarly I would never consider commissioning, for example, a photographer in the U.S., without first agreeing costs.

No it didn't contain the costs. It had the outline of the story and the when they responded with interest they were told what was going to be shot on the day. A five location shoot.

It actually worked out better than planned because I got a camera into the police cells were the shooter said on tape that he shot the tourist because "I didn't like him" ... "he was crazy".

The Aussie stations (and papers) asked how much for the package and some agreed and some declined.

KITV4 and KGMB9 were told the contents of the material and both just said "send it".

The Aussie media have all paid. KITV4 Hawaii won't pay. KGMB9 Hawai haven't paid as yet either.

Thing is, it's not the buyer who sets the price. They might set the level they are prepared to pay up to but the seller is the one who sets the price. No use going to the Honda dealer and grabbing a car and saying send me an invoice and then complaining about the cost afterwards.

It's also not like they are being charged above market rates.

But it highlights the problems of setting up an agency in Thailand. A legal judgement in Thailand worries who?

The nice thing here is that the use of the unpaid vision is a breach of copyright and leaves the station open to prosecution by the US District Attorney and fines of $40,000 for each use of the material.

As it's still on their website "each use" could be deemed each visit to that website.

As a former bureau chief, COS and editor, I have fairly realistic expectations of how much I'm going to pay for a photo, text or vision when buying and how much its worth when selling.

$150 for cat up a treee rescue maybe, but I don't expect to pay that for Burmese soldiers shooting monks or plane crash and survivor vision and stories or material from halfway around the world that someone spends a day or more working on.

Dealing with media outside the main broadcasters, or newspaper publishers in the US is rarely worth it. They do not have a freelance culture. You're probably going to have to bite the bullet on this one as there will not be many stories here with a Hawaii link. Had you asked them what they were willing to pay in the first instance you would probably have been gobsmacked. Cheer up, your day will come.

[andy1308]

Photojourn - try sending them a cease and desist email giving them a time frame (I reckon a couple of days at most) by which they need to remove your content. Explain to them what will happen if they don't and also tell them you reserve the right to take further action for the breach of your copyright that has already taken place. At least it will show them you are serious.

[RAZZELL]

Photojourn - try sending them a cease and desist email giving them a time frame (I reckon a couple of days at most) by which they need to remove your content. Explain to them what will happen if they don't and also tell them you reserve the right to take further action for the breach of your copyright that has already taken place. At least it will show them you are serious.

I find that it's usually some smart-arse jobsworth who think's he's clever by not paying. Trying to make himself look "hard" and controlling the buget and all that "tosh".

When he realises that the sh1t will hit the fan, ie he'll get a bollocking from a superior, they usuallly pay up. I'd contact an attorney in Hawaii and get them to send them a letter similar to as mentioned above by registered post.

When someone with half a brain cell read's it, you'll get paid, trust me.

Read the bit about civil litigation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perez_Hilton

RAZZ

Edited April 27, 2008 by RAZZELL

[photojourn]

At the present time they've been sent a letter stating:

1) That they have breached my copyright on the material.

2) Continued airing of the material on their website constitutes additional breaches

3) Any discount offered to them has been revoked.

4) That I intend to forward the matter to the US District Attorney along with a complain of breach of copyright - apparently they can be liable for fines of $40,000 per instance.

In addition, Shayne Enright and KITV4 Hawaii have become fairly well known due to this thread and a couple of others so I doubt that anyone else will be rushing to offer KITV4 or Mr Enright any material in the future.

But it does highlight the problem of dealing with media outside of Thailand. Then again, I think this more reflects the individual and the station as I've sold to many other "first-timers" and not had problems.

Ordinarily it wouldn't be a topic worth mentioning here. But given that Razzel started the thread I thought it fitted in.