British/Filipina Couple Flee To Thailand From Adultery Arrest In Philippines

[jonniebkk]

"Prostitution has been technically illegal in Thailand since 1960, when a law was passed under pressure from the United Nations"

My understanding of the Thai prostitution laws is that it's illegal for women to accept money for sexual services but it is not illegal for a man to offer to pay a woman for sexual services. Therefore, if there is ever a prostitution sting situation (legal ages involved of course) then the only party subject to fine or arrest is the woman.

Gotta love Thailand

[pliny]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am fairly certain that adultery in Thailand is not a criminal offence, for if it were then probably half the country would be behind bars.

It may come as a surprise to most, but adultery, or as it is sometimes known "alienation of affection," is still a civil and CRIMINAL offense in some states of the American South. Recently, some men have been sued in civil courts for damages by husbands who have been the victim of this offense.

Your reference to the Southern states as if they were some sort of validation of your eccentric opinions comes as no surprise and probably marks you out rather more than any other poster, including myself, possibly could.

Let us be clear; adultery is not a criminal offence in any civilised society whereas bigamy is.Of course, in muslim societies the opposite is often the case but that is definitely another story

Your arguments seem as muddled as your grasp of Latin - please research ad hominem and try to avoid a similar mistake.

Edited April 22, 2008 by pliny

[jonniebkk]

Let us be clear; adultery is not a criminal offence in any civilised society whereas bigamy is.Of course, in muslim societies the opposite is often the case but that is definitely another story

Nowhere did I express any opinion as to what codes of conduct constitute a "civilized" society as that was not the point of my posts. I have a problem with people who apply their cultural relativism to other societies around the world. These people are usually the ones who also argue for respect for indigenous cultures and multiculturalism...except for cultural artifacts with which they disagree.

When one travels to a foreign country, one implicitly accepts that they are subject to the laws of that country - not just the ones the traveler likes or that are in accord with the laws of their own country.

My post is about respect for the law...for without law there is anarchy, which benefits no one.

And as we seem to be in teacher mode tonite, might I also point out that the preferred English spelling of "offence" is OFFENSE and "civilised" is normally spelled CIVILIZED. In addition, "muslim" is normally capitalized like so "Muslim." Might I suggest you invest in a dictionary, and try to avoid these basic spelling mistakes.

Edited April 22, 2008 by jonniebkk

[farang prince]

Nowhere did I express any opinion as to what codes of conduct constitute a "civilized" society as that was not the point of my posts. I have a problem with people who apply their cultural relativism to other societies around the world. These people are usually the ones who also argue for respect for indigenous cultures and multiculturalism...except for cultural artifacts with which they disagree.

When one travels to a foreign country, one implicitly accepts that they are subject to the laws of that country - not just the ones the traveler likes or that are in accord with the laws of their own country.

My post is about respect for the law...for without law there is anarchy, which benefits no one.

And as we seem to be in teacher mode tonite, might I also point out that the preferred English spelling of "offence" is OFFENSE and "civilised" is normally spelled CIVILIZED. In addition, "muslim" is normally capitalized like so "Muslim." Might I suggest you invest in a dictionary, and try to avoid these basic spelling mistakes.

Jonnie, perhaps you should take a few deep breaths and count to ten on this topic. You seem to be getting a little overwrought with your recent responses in this thread.

As far as being in teacher mode, the English spelling for "offence" in England is "offence." It is spelled "offense" in the USA. And the same goes for "civilised," which is spelled that way in England and is spelled "civilized" in the USA. You are, however, quite right that Muslim should be capitalized.

Now, back to the original topic on this thread...I talked about this subject to a friend of mine in the Philippines and she was not surprised at all. She said that the woman in question must have known that adultery could be a criminal offense in the Philippines. My friend theorized that the Filipina probably withheld this information from her English paramour in the hopes that he would arrange for her to go to the United Kingdom where she could start a new life with him and eventually get British citizenship. My Filipina friend also added that she had no sympathy for the Filipino husband, whom she described as acting like a "dick."

[aries27]

am not going to speak as a Filipino...

i find the story romantic but er...stupid. i mean haven't they heard of contraceptives? they are not exactly young and innocent teens? sure be in love but until all things are clear, shouldn't one or two be at least SAFE?

is this making headlines in BKK or just among farang forum?

[jonniebkk]

She said that the woman in question must have known that adultery could be a criminal offense in the Philippines. My friend theorized that the Filipina probably withheld this information from her English paramour in the hopes that he would arrange for her to go to the United Kingdom where she could start a new life with him and eventually get British citizenship. My Filipina friend also added that she had no sympathy for the Filipino husband, whom she described as acting like a "dick."

As to your points, I agree. As I pointed out, IMO, the Filipina is primarily at fault in this case as she knew she was still legally married and therefore didn't have the capacity to date, let alone marry, anyone. Apparently, the English fella entered into this marriage under false pretenses, however, his subsequent actions have only served to compound the damage. Sure, the husband of this woman is likely taking advantage of the situation but doesn't anyone who has a legal right have the right to exercise it. How many times have any one of us had someone "over a barrel" and used it to our advantage. Some may not approve of it but that in no way makes it illegal.

Marriage, in most countries, besides being about love, is also a formal legal civil contract. Like any contract, there are rights and responsibilities on both sides. Like all contracts, there are also causes of action for those against those who interfere with this contract. As distasteful as he might have considered it, the fellow in question should have reached a financial settlement with the husband of his Filipina girlfriend.

My points on the importance of fidelty in marriage in other cultures and respect for laws of other countries I stand by.

//Edit: deleted reply to deleted post -Maestro

Edited April 23, 2008 by Maestro

[LooseCannon]

... extra-territoriality went out with Queen Victoria!

No, it didn't.

Embassies, diplomats & US military bases are all exempt from the laws of the host country.

The US base on Okinawa has made the news on many occasions, and it is only for the most serious offences, such as murder & rape, that the offenders are

handed over to the local police.

Iraq has to be the classic case of 'extra-territoriality' gone mad. There you have a situation of literally thousands of 'security contractors' who don't appear to

be subject to the law of any country, free to gun down innocent Iraqis as they see fit.

Now, with your 'traditional sensibilities' do you find it acceptable that execution is a suitable punishment for adultery ? Rape victims sentenced to jail ? As I am sure

that you know, these sort of things happen in certain countries for 'historical and cultural reasons'.

I suspect a troll or 'attention deficit disorder'. It must hel_l for you living in Pattaya with all the married bargirls, never quite sure that you may be committing adultery,

because even though it is not illegal in Thailand, it is certainly offensive to the 'cultural sensibilities' of the 'traditional' Thai.

[LooseCannon]

They both broke the law in the Philippines (she in particular as she knew she was not in a position to get married) and both should serve the jail sentences they were given. Hopefully, the Philippine (or Thai) authorities will see to it that they are extradited back to the Philippines to serve their sentences.

I think the point is that you made an inflammatory comment, or at least a comment that could be easily construed as being inflammatory. I think you made

this comment to get a reaction - you got a reaction.

Let's be sensible here, extradition for adultery?

We have to get this into perspective, it is not murder, rape, drug trafficking, theft or any number of other serious crimes & I am sure that the Philippines Govt.

could spend the money on a lot worthier causes.

The attitude of cultural chauvinism as exhibited by many Westerners in Third World countries is totally reprenhensible, and on this point I could not agree more.

[jonniebkk]

They both broke the law in the Philippines...and both should serve the jail sentences they were given. Hopefully, the Philippine (or Thai) authorities will see to it that they are extradited back to the Philippines to serve their sentences.

I think the point is that you made an inflammatory comment, or at least a comment that could be easily construed as being inflammatory.

Let's be sensible here, extradition for adultery?

Saying that someone who was convicted of a serious crime in a foreign country (under their legal code) should serve the sentence they are given and that the judicial authorities of other countries should cooperate in returning fugitives from justice to serve said sentences is somehow "inflammatory"?

We cannot pick and choose the laws we will obey. As for the specific issue of adultery, it is for the Philippine people to decide how to treat this social phenomenon and to enact/change laws appropriate to their society.

The issue is not extradition for adultery...it is respect for the rule of law...pure and simple. It may seem anachronistic to have severe penalties for adultery in most Western societies, but in a society with very conservative Catholic social mores, where divorce, abortion, and many other practices that are legal in the West are illegal, it may seem perfectly appropriate.

[aries27]

i am coming back because i realized i did not comment on the jail time which i think is really extreme. shades of "midnight express" eh?

again, let me start by saying that in my opinion PH is a confused and confusing country (but i love it!), contradictory and a bit pretentious.

if the protagonist male here was an ordinary Filipino, nothing like that will happen at all. ok, maybe in the higher strata of society, the wronged party could try legal means, etc.

but adultery in this "only Catholic country in Asia" is very common. come on! it is even something the macho Filipino guy could crow about. i could cite two stories here, just happening near the neighborhood (poor people squatting on a vacant lot nearby) and sleazier than the one we are talking here but it will make this post too long. you just have to take my word for it. do the people in the know bother? er, maybe they talk about it, even sympathize but other than that, this is a non-issue.

back to our story: in fairness to the first husband, maybe he really felt some injustice; or his pride was hurt. he was entitled to some procedure for ending the relationship even if it was no longer working as they have been living apart for three years. also, lost his face...remember again, this is PH, where it is alright for men to take in paramours but not the other way around for the women. but there are exceptions of course.

or he could have just been paid off! that would have settled things fast and clean. whatever!

as for jails, it is really bad. never been to one but i would see clips on TV. most depressing place. filipino or farang. when the former president Joseph Estrada was being tried for i-forgot-what-crime and there were talks he would go to jail, the wife who was a senator, said she would do something to improve the jails (just in case). i thought, oh that's wonderful. unfortunately estrada went to a resthouse jail and all those promises from the senator never materialized.

so in this story? is it culture? is it poverty? is it stupidity? is it love? its all of the above and pure craziness...

anyway, i can see a silver lining here. with the trials and persecution (and can we say publicity?) our romantic protagonists got themselves in, they must have one very strong relationship by now. i wish them luck and more care next time!!! let this be a lesson to some people though!

Edited April 23, 2008 by aries27

[Kerryd]

Once again we have (far) too many people that seem to think that the laws of their home countries should apply to crimes committed in foreign countries. Much like every time someone gets busted for drug trafficking in Thailand and people start crying that the sentences are too tough, and if the same thing had been done "back home" they would have gotten a slap on the wrist.

Tough <deleted>. You (and they) are not "back home". If you want to commit a crime, be it drug trafficking or adultery or what ever, and don't want to face harsh punishment(s), then go home and do it.

Do the same thing(s) in a foreign country and expect that you will face a completely different set of standards, rules, laws and punishments.

In the Phillipines, largely due to their Roman Catholic heritage, adultery is a crime. Period. Deal with it. They broke the law. They were offered an "out", but being jobless (and penniless apparently), they turned it down. With assistance from family and friends they managed to flee the country.

Interesting that Thailand let them in at all. I keep hearing talk about how people have to have a return ticket and show proof of sufficient funds to last during their stay in the Kingdom, and it sounds like this couple has neither (though in all fairness, I've never been asked for proof of either any time I've entered). Not to mention they were fleeing arrest.

So now they are staying here, living on love (and hand-outs), hoping someone will bail them out.

I'm kind of surprised (just a little) that they were able to get out of the country. We have a lot of Filipino workers in AssCrackistan that were denied exit from their country, because they had Afghanistan visas in their passports, or plane tickets showing that they would be travelling to Afghanistan.

Now, many of you are aware of how hard it can be to get a spousal visa, even if you are legally married to a foreigner. I've heard you have to have guarantees, and show proof of ability to support your spouse (I don't have any personal experience with this) along with other paperwork of course.

From what I've seen, I have doubts she would be able to get a visa to the UK in the first place unless some strings were pulled somewhere, and I don't see where anyone would want to take the potential heat to have a "special" visa issued in this case.

I may be wrong on that, having never been involved in that process.

Be interesting to see what happens when their VOA's expire. Would have been interesting to see how much sympathy this couple would have garnered if their crime had of been larceny or fraud instead of adultery.

[a2396]

English teeth, big ears and a great career opportunity waiting for him in the UK. Oh she married a catch alright. I bet if she does get to the UK, in a year's time after a wonderful damp cold experience with her dream mate, she'll be longing for that prison cell.

The Philippines do have their priorities right though, imprison people that pose no threat to society and let the corrupt thugs walk about. Makes Thailand seem so more advanced.

"imprison people that pose no threat to society and let the corrupt thugs walk about." Sounds like USA. I'm glad the Pope isn't responsible for meeting out justice in this part of the world.

[jstumbo]

Maybe to many people with "modern" sensibilities a little adultery on the side is no big deal. However, to most people around the world it is a VERY serious offense.

Then the police should sit outside of brothels in the PI and arrest every married Philippino many that goes with a prostitute. It always seems to be the woman are the ones that are prosecuted for this.

[Pepe']

English teeth, big ears and a great career opportunity waiting for him in the UK. Oh she married a catch alright. I bet if she does get to the UK, in a year's time after a wonderful damp cold experience with her dream mate, she'll be longing for that prison cell.

The Philippines do have their priorities right though, imprison people that pose no threat to society and let the corrupt thugs walk about. Makes Thailand seem so more advanced.

"imprison people that pose no threat to society and let the corrupt thugs walk about." Sounds like USA. I'm glad the Pope isn't responsible for meeting out justice in this part of the world.

------------------

Punishment for adultery sounds a bit intriging, at least academically.

I have plenty of character flaws. Lying and cheating are just not among them.

Having been on the receiving end of adultery from/by my ex Thai wife perhaps makes me a little biased.

Call me old fashioned, I do believe that vow is sacred. When broken, betrayal of the highest degree...

[jstumbo]

When one travels to a foreign country, one implicitly accepts that they are subject to the laws of that country - not just the ones the traveler likes or that are in accord with the laws of their own country.

And as we seem to be in teacher mode tonite, might I also point out that the preferred English spelling of "offence" is OFFENSE and "civilised" is normally spelled CIVILIZED. In addition, "muslim" is normally capitalized like so "Muslim." Might I suggest you invest in a dictionary, and try to avoid these basic spelling mistakes. ohmy.gif

If the child was conceived in Abu Dhabi, then the laws there would apply. Maybe Abu Dhabi should file charges and seek extradition. Sounds like they should have been flogged or stoned to death instead. I guess you would support sending them to Abu Dhabi to be flogged or stoned to death also?

I remember a story about 5 years ago where a 15 year immigrant girl was sentenced to 90 lashes in UAE for adultery. She was treated as an adult because according to their laws if you reach puberty, then you are an adult.

//Edit: deleted reply to deleted post - Maestro

Edited April 23, 2008 by Maestro

[LooseCannon]

Saying that someone who was convicted of a serious crime in a foreign country (under their legal code) should serve the sentence they are given and that the judicial authorities of other countries should cooperate in returning fugitives from justice to serve said sentences is somehow "inflammatory"?

You indicated, that hopefully, they would be extradited back to the Philippines for the crime of adultery. You posted this opinion on this website knowing that it would most likely be diametrically opposed to the sentiment of the majority of visitors to this site - therefore 'inflammatory' - but I am sure that you know this already.

Now, if you had suggested that this couple be extradited back to the Philippines for the crime of murder/armed robbery, this would not be considered 'inflammatory' because we can

expect that this would coincide with the general expections of the majority of visitors to this site - but I am sure that you know this already.

Do you honestly believe that a person should be extradited for the crime of adultery?

From your original post & subsequent posting, the only conclusion that can be reached, is that you fully agree that the crime of adultery warrants extradition.

Would this apply to all countries that have adultery as a criminal offence, including the ones where they have the death penalty?

Would this apply to countries that may not have a state sponsored death penalty for this crime, but the cultural mores of these countries allow relatives to murder one of the party, this almost always being the female party?

Like I have said before, I think that you made your original comment purely to elicit a response - which you have got (again).

I don't think anybody on this site is arguing that visitors to foreign countries are somehow exempt from local laws because that particular offence does not exist in their home country.

I am not arguing about the sanctity of marriage & it's value as held by different cultural & religious groups around the world, or the need to respect the laws & cultural traditions of different countries.

You made the statement that they should be extradited, my response is that this is a totally nonsensical proposition.

If you truly believe in what you wrote in your original post, then all I can do is feel is a certain sadness that somebody who is obviousely no fool, seems to be well educated & articulate, can hold such archaic views.

[Pepe']

The punishment should fit the crime. Death? Well seems a bit extreme to me.

However, If you are lied to, cheated and robbed, by a pretender you brought into your home.

Maimed emotionaly, phycologicaly, spiritualy and financially by someone you adored, trusted and treated like a queen.

You might have a slightly different view...

[LooseCannon]

The punishment should fit the crime. Death? Well seems a bit extreme to me.

However, If you are lied to, cheated and robbed, by a pretender you brought into your home.

Maimed emotionaly, phycologicaly, spiritualy and financially by someone you adored, trusted and treated like a queen.

You might have a slightly different view...

If every rejected lover, spurned boyfriend, discarded wife, estranged parent had the opportunity to have the object of their previous affection jailed there would not be enough prisons to hold them all.

You can't force people to love you, no matter how much you love them, and as distressing & upsetting as it may be when people you love leave you, there is nothing that you can do about it.

Yes, like the majority of people on this planet I have experienced the emotional & physcological distress when somebody that you love decides to leave you. It was painful for awhile & then I moved on, just like everybody should, because if you don't you are destined for a lifetime of mental anguish. At no time did I wish for the previous love of my life to be jailed.

I sympathesize with your loss, time will heal most wounds if you let it.

[Pepe']

The punishment should fit the crime. Death? Well seems a bit extreme to me.

However, If you are lied to, cheated and robbed, by a pretender you brought into your home.

Maimed emotionaly, phycologicaly, spiritualy and financially by someone you adored, trusted and treated like a queen.

You might have a slightly different view...

If every rejected lover, spurned boyfriend, discarded wife, estranged parent had the opportunity to have the object of their previous affection jailed there would not be enough prisons to hold them all.

You can't force people to love you, no matter how much you love them, and as distressing & upsetting as it may be when people you love leave you, there is nothing that you can do about it.

Yes, like the majority of people on this planet I have experienced the emotional & physcological distress when somebody that you love decides to leave you. It was painful for awhile & then I moved on, just like everybody should, because if you don't you are destined for a lifetime of mental anguish. At no time did I wish for the previous love of my life to be jailed.

I sympathesize with your loss, time will heal most wounds if you let it.

----------------

When your right your right.

I'm not thinking of death or jail time but would a cattle prod up the tw@t be considered cruel and unusual punishment?

I'm only half serious as today is the first anniversary of this marriage ending.

Really I should consider myself lucky to be rid of the snake...

[duncaw]

Link

Link lifted from 2bangkok.com

There must be dozens (if not significantly more) UK/Thai couples in similar situations. Would have thought that the chances of the UK authorities making a special exception for this high profile case would be virtually nil, where would it stop otherwise.

[LooseCannon]

'I'm not thinking of death or jail time but would a cattle prod up the tw@t be considered cruel and unusual punishment?'

Under these circumstances, entirely appropriate for her crime of utter stupidity in not knowing when she was on to a good thing.

(I am saying 'her' because I am assuming it wasn't a bloke you were treating like a queen).

[a2396]

'I'm not thinking of death or jail time but would a cattle prod up the tw@t be considered cruel and unusual punishment?'

Under these circumstances, entirely appropriate for her crime of utter stupidity in not knowing when she was on to a good thing.

(I am saying 'her' because I am assuming it wasn't a bloke you were treating like a queen).

The nuts are out on this one. How did a garbage comment post like this get past the moderators?

[LooseCannon]

'I'm not thinking of death or jail time but would a cattle prod up the tw@t be considered cruel and unusual punishment?'

Under these circumstances, entirely appropriate for her crime of utter stupidity in not knowing when she was on to a good thing.

(I am saying 'her' because I am assuming it wasn't a bloke you were treating like a queen).

The nuts are out on this one. How did a garbage comment post like this get past the moderators?

Ouch!

Probably the same way your bitter & twisted comment made it through.

I think this comment of yours probably sums you up perfectly...

"Straight communication is next to impossible here, because of little or no English skills or their incliniation to tell you what they think you want to hear or to tell you something that will not diminish their stature in a conversation, ie the so-called face-saving."

I & most normal people don't have problems communicating - you obviousely do. It would not surprise me if few people had any interest in interacting with you considering your arrogant demeanor. I certainly don't.

Good luck with your projects.

[a2396]

'I'm not thinking of death or jail time but would a cattle prod up the tw@t be considered cruel and unusual punishment?'

Under these circumstances, entirely appropriate for her crime of utter stupidity in not knowing when she was on to a good thing.

(I am saying 'her' because I am assuming it wasn't a bloke you were treating like a queen).

The nuts are out on this one. How did a garbage comment post like this get past the moderators?

Ouch!

Probably the same way your bitter & twisted comment made it through.

I think this comment of yours probably sums you up perfectly...

"Straight communication is next to impossible here, because of little or no English skills or their incliniation to tell you what they think you want to hear or to tell you something that will not diminish their stature in a conversation, ie the so-called face-saving."

I & most normal people don't have problems communicating - you obviousely do. It would not surprise me if few people had any interest in interacting with you considering your arrogant demeanor. I certainly don't.

Good luck with your projects.

I'm arrogant, bitter & twisted? Take a look in the mirror pal. Loose cannon & screw loose.

[zaza]

At least;he proved he is a "real" gentleman from Swindon and didn't turn up as a soap-dodger!

They look so perfect for each other in both pictures though(match made in heaven/Philippine)

Hope all will be sorted out before their young child would understand what's going around her.

[Shrubbery]

"A Wiltshire man has gone on the run in Thailand after being sentenced to jail in the Philippines for breaking the country's strict adultery laws.

David Scott, who fled to Thailand with his Filipina partner Cynthia Delfino, was facing a nine year prison sentence.

Under Philippine law it is illegal to have a relationship with a married man or woman, even if they are separated."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/7495609.stm

Blimey, I know more than a handful of Filipinos that are in relationships with separated men.

[duncaw]

"A Wiltshire man has gone on the run in Thailand after being sentenced to jail in the Philippines for breaking the country's strict adultery laws.

David Scott, who fled to Thailand with his Filipina partner Cynthia Delfino, was facing a nine year prison sentence.

Under Philippine law it is illegal to have a relationship with a married man or woman, even if they are separated."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/7495609.stm

Blimey, I know more than a handful of Filipinos that are in relationships with separated men.

If they get visas to even enter the UK, let alone settle there, it makes a mockery of the entire UK visa system.

They knew that what they were doing was illegal under Philippine law but went ahead anyway. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Then they go crying to the UK authorities about not wanting to split up a "family", persecution in home country etc.

What a load of <deleted>.

[Sir Burr]

Blimey, I know more than a handful of Filipinos that are in relationships with separated men.

Shouldn't this be in the Gay forum?

Or, did you possibly mean 'Filipinas'?

[Shrubbery]

Shouldn't this be in the Gay forum?

Or, did you possibly mean 'Filipinas'?

Sorry, yes Filipinas.

[Shrubbery]

If they get visas to even enter the UK, let alone settle there, it makes a mockery of the entire UK visa system.

They knew that what they were doing was illegal under Philippine law but went ahead anyway. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Then they go crying to the UK authorities about not wanting to split up a "family", persecution in home country etc.

I agree with you entirely. But hey, it's the UK.