Work Permits

[Scalawag]

We know there are many teaching here without work permits. Has anyone ever heard or known of a teacher at the government university level being caught? What were the consequences, if any? Where they able to buy their way out? Did the government university take any responsibility? Where they deported?

This isn't a problem for me but I know someone who is taking that risk, assuming there is one....

[garro]

As far as I know it happens quite frequently. It even happens occasionally to teachers who have work permits, but were doing a bit on the side after hours. I think many of these guys spent a bit of time in jail before being deported.

[ajarnmark]

I worked in a top private university for three years and NOT even a single time had any problem. But again, I am not a white guy (no, I am not Thai) and therefore, no problems for me. Not even a single time, police or any other authority even asked me to show passport or visa or work permit. Although I have been driving and riding and moving around and outside Bangkok.

[Scott]

I don't think that asking/checking on work permits is very common and I don't think it is random. When it is done, it is based on some sort of knowledge or information that has been specifically given to the officials.

I do know that where I used to live some years back, the immigration people used to occasionally 'sweep' the building. They would check with the owner and find out who the foreigners were in the building. They would then start checking passports and documents. It was pretty cursory and if you were respectful and nice they would come into the apartment and look around and leave. If, however, you denied them entry, then the fun began--knew a guy who had his entire room dismantled--right down to the pillows and bedding being torn open!

This sort of thing comes and goes in waves--or perhaps I should say "crackdowns."

I myself, have never been checked or asked for a work permit, but we have teachers at our school who have been asked. They didn't have them, but some have a copy. If they have neither, usually a phone call is sufficient.

[PeaceBlondie]

I came to Thailand with the false, naive idea that government institutions obeyed government laws. If you worked for a govt. prathom, matayom, or university, they would get you a correct visa (extended, no more visa runs) and a current, valid work permit. No, it is not true. I am searching for work at govt. schools but have no intention of working there illegally. They can stick their school where the Thai flag does not shine.

[Ijustwannateach]

As far as I know it happens quite frequently. It even happens occasionally to teachers who have work permits, but were doing a bit on the side after hours. I think many of these guys spent a bit of time in jail before being deported.

Strangely, I have never met anyone who was directly affected by these laws, or who even claimed to have met anyone who was, until you, Garro. Care to give us the basis for this amazing suggestion, including the notion of jail time? I am only personally aware of maybe 3 persons involved in teaching in Thailand who went to jail or were deported for paperwork-related reasons in the last 5 years, and that was for fake degree (fraud) in the "crackdown" of last year. One would hear of it far more often, and from people one knew, if this were really very widespread.

[garro]

As far as I know it happens quite frequently. It even happens occasionally to teachers who have work permits, but were doing a bit on the side after hours. I think many of these guys spent a bit of time in jail before being deported.

Strangely, I have never met anyone who was directly affected by these laws, or who even claimed to have met anyone who was, until you, Garro. Care to give us the basis for this amazing suggestion, including the notion of jail time? I am only personally aware of maybe 3 persons involved in teaching in Thailand who went to jail or were deported for paperwork-related reasons in the last 5 years, and that was for fake degree (fraud) in the "crackdown" of last year. One would hear of it far more often, and from people one knew, if this were really very widespread.

Yes when I was teaching in BKK 5 years ago there was at least two people where I was working who were deported for not having a work permit. This was in Lad Prao and at the time I was working with ECC. I also briefly worked at a language agency in Seacon Square which was raided and one of the girls I knew there was deported back to England, and the school soon closed down (or at least changed name). After that I only taught in rural areas for a few years until my new job with work permit. I also heard about, this is second-hand information though, that an ex-teacher at my new school was put in jail for a few days for working after hours without a work permit after he was reported. So strangely enough, it obviously does happen.

If I had known that there was little so chance of being deported, as you suggest, I would not have bothered going so out of my way to get legal. It would seem that there is nothing to discourage people from working illegally - if you are to be believed.

Edited April 22, 2008 by garro

[Loaded]

As far as I know it happens quite frequently. It even happens occasionally to teachers who have work permits, but were doing a bit on the side after hours. I think many of these guys spent a bit of time in jail before being deported.

Strangely, I have never met anyone who was directly affected by these laws, or who even claimed to have met anyone who was, until you, Garro. Care to give us the basis for this amazing suggestion, including the notion of jail time? I am only personally aware of maybe 3 persons involved in teaching in Thailand who went to jail or were deported for paperwork-related reasons in the last 5 years, and that was for fake degree (fraud) in the "crackdown" of last year. One would hear of it far more often, and from people one knew, if this were really very widespread.

I'm with IJWT on this one.

In Chiang Mai there are maybe 20+ language schools. British Council supply non-immF (cultural volunteer!) visas and I think under certain conditions AUA will provide for a few of their teachers. Just about everyone else has been/is working without wps. In 10 years I do not know of anyone who has had a problem. Most private/government schools provide wps but a sizeable minority pays cash in hand and no wp - usually to non-degree teachers.

The only time I've heard of crackdowns is on farang internet forums!

[KhaoNiaw]

I'm with IJWT on this one.

Me too. Defintely as far as universities and the formal education sector is concerned.

I notice Garro is talking about language schools and I've heard of a few instances where language schools were raided. But I think in every case there was some kind of 'turf war' or other political or business factor behind it.

Edited April 22, 2008 by KhaoNiaw

[mrtoad]

As far as I know it happens quite frequently. It even happens occasionally to teachers who have work permits, but were doing a bit on the side after hours. I think many of these guys spent a bit of time in jail before being deported.

Strangely, I have never met anyone who was directly affected by these laws, or who even claimed to have met anyone who was, until you, Garro. Care to give us the basis for this amazing suggestion, including the notion of jail time? I am only personally aware of maybe 3 persons involved in teaching in Thailand who went to jail or were deported for paperwork-related reasons in the last 5 years, and that was for fake degree (fraud) in the "crackdown" of last year. One would hear of it far more often, and from people one knew, if this were really very widespread.

I'm with IJWT on this one.

In Chiang Mai there are maybe 20+ language schools. British Council supply non-immF (cultural volunteer!) visas and I think under certain conditions AUA will provide for a few of their teachers. Just about everyone else has been/is working without wps. In 10 years I do not know of anyone who has had a problem. Most private/government schools provide wps but a sizeable minority pays cash in hand and no wp - usually to non-degree teachers.

The only time I've heard of crackdowns is on farang internet forums!

Agree with IJWT and Loaded. Yes, we do hear from time to time about crackdowns etc, but these do appear to be based more on tip offs rather than a random sweep. I know plenty of people who are working without WP's and have done so for a number of years, and they have not had any problems - and this includes language centres, private schools and government schools. I think if you do get caught, then you are pretty unlucky.

[Ijustwannateach]

Garro, I don't doubt that you may have indeed experienced what you say, but your experience is most likely the exception rather than the rule- and as you say, there is rather little to prevent those who wish to work illegally from doing so- except the hassles, the uncertainties, the lack of legal protection, unpaid summer "holidays," and the expenses of doing visa runs all the time. I don't recommend it myself and find it disgraceful that so little is legally done to the SCHOOLS to stop them from this practice.

"S"

[garro]

It is obvious from the posts that my experiences must be the exception, and I do know that in at least one of the cases it was about jealously that the westerner was making too much money. I must admit I'm surprised though. Reading the posts here and elsewhere, you would think that all teachers were going to be deported tomorrow,

[PeaceBlondie]

The only ones who are deported are usually criminals or folks with phony credentials.

You know that Thailand does not operate under the rule of law when its own government schools flaunt the law.

[Scott]

The biggest issue, in general, is your visa status. We have had teachers who were asked for their work permit, but this was never a hassle. A few carry a photo-copy which is sufficient, and others have simply called me on the phone and I've told the police they have a work permit and the police can come by the school and see it (they never do).

I am not sure if most police officers even understand about the work permit and who gets them or how. It would really require a pretty knowledgeable officer and probably an investigation of sorts to figure out legal from illegal workers.

I think all our employees who have been asked, have been stopped at traffic checkpoints. Almost all were Filipino's.

[shrewsyj]

Scott - by 'visa status' do you mean whether you're in thailand on the right visa (ie a non-imm as opposed to tourist visa or other) or whether your visa has expired and you're on overstay?

sorry if this is an obvious question- i'm new to all this!

cheers

[Neeranam]

Working in a university, you have absolutely no problem with the law, especially if it's a government one. I have never heard of anyone getting into trouble. University teachers are not viewed the same as language schools or kids schools.

[withnail]

I have a feeling that one of the stories I had previously heard of a language school being raided may have been Garro's from another source (possibly not though). I would be interested to know whether those teachers who were deported were also blacklisted, if they have tried and failed to come back etc.

The couple of instances I have heard of first hand both had something to do with ex staff/rival companies making complaints (if this true I'm not sure) and certainly with one place a fine was paid and no one got into trouble.

Nobody that I have heard of first hand has ever been deported for teaching. I do recall the degree crackdown that IJWY mentioned and spoke once to someone who was there.

[PeaceBlondie]

The only scandal I remember, from articles on websites, were the teachers with fake degrees at the matayom school in BKK about two years ago - imprisonment and deportation, as I recall. At the university level, nothing.