No More Multiple Entry O From Singapore

[jackk]

It always comes down to the few who abuse the system or use the system as it was not intended to or for make it difficult for the the majority of others who try to follow the rules

I don't understand why those using a multiple entry visa are more likely to "abuse the system".

Let's see the case of those using a single O + extension: they have a thai wife, they must earn at least 40k/month but... they are not allowed to work in Thailand. So, how comes that so many guys can live/stay in LOS without going to work but still can earn money every months ? Are they all lucky (wake up in the morning and find several thousands baht on the table)? Have they all a rich thai wife ?

The marriage extension of stay by itself is a complete nonsense, to let foreigners stay in a country where they are not allowed to work and forcing them to get a monthly income

[lopburi3]

Who is not allowed to work in Thailand? Those married and holding a non immigrant O visa/extension most surly can and do obtain work permits and legally work in Thailand.

[Krub]

It always comes down to the few who abuse the system or use the system as it was not intended to or for make it difficult for the the majority of others who try to follow the rules

I don't understand why those using a multiple entry visa are more likely to "abuse the system".

Let's see the case of those using a single O + extension: they have a thai wife, they must earn at least 40k/month but... they are not allowed to work in Thailand. So, how comes that so many guys can live/stay in LOS without going to work but still can earn money every months ? Are they all lucky (wake up in the morning and find several thousands baht on the table)? Have they all a rich thai wife ?

The marriage extension of stay by itself is a complete nonsense, to let foreigners stay in a country where they are not allowed to work and forcing them to get a monthly income

I think that using the multi entry 1 year visa to stay permanently except for the border run is not what the visa was intended for (my own personal opinion)

Most countries giving those long term visas only allow a maximum of days within one year using that visa. Thailand does not have that restriction and so the visa is open to abuse.

That the requirements needed to meet the 1 year extension in Thailand are 'a complete nonsense' is irrelevant but I understand that it pushes people to abuse the system.

The Thai wife extension allows you to seek a work permit and work in Thailand as opposed to the retirement extension where work is not allowed.

[IgnacioE]

It always comes down to the few who abuse the system or use the system as it was not intended to or for make it difficult for the the majority of others who try to follow the rules

Get real, dude. You are living in fantasy land or you know nothing about living in Thailand.

The more that you try to be an honest person and go by the rules, the more you get screwed.

I am not complaining. I go with the flow. Living in Thailand is my utopia.

There is no "system" in Thailand. Which is what is part of its beauty once you understand it.

//Edit: Off-topic and incorrect information about Thailand's GDP has been removed. - Maestro

Edited May 11, 2008 by Maestro

[Krub]

It always comes down to the few who abuse the system or use the system as it was not intended to or for make it difficult for the the majority of others who try to follow the rules

Get real, dude. You are living in fantasy land or you know nothing about living in Thailand.

The more that you try to be an honest person and go by the rules, the more you get screwed.

I am not complaining. I go with the flow. Living in Thailand is my utopia.

There is no "system" in Thailand. Which is what is part of its beauty once you understand it.

//Edit: Off-topic and incorrect information about Thailand's GDP has been removed. - Maestro

I am not complaining either, just trying, but not making it, to understand why people expect the visa rules to match their wishes.

If the system is abused, it is not surprising that at a certain point there will be a crack down. In Thailand it takes ages for the crack down to appear but it does from time to time like with the implementation of a maximum days stay with the on arrival 30 days stamp which was/is used by some to live here permanently

As for me not knowing anything about living in Thailand.........

Wishing you a great time in Thailand as I am having myself

[IgnacioE]

I am not complaining either, just trying, but not making it, to understand why people expect the visa rules to match their wishes.

If the system is abused, it is not surprising that at a certain point there will be a crack down. In Thailand it takes ages for the crack down to appear but it does from time to time like with the implementation of a maximum days stay with the on arrival 30 days stamp which was/is used by some to live here permanently

As for me not knowing anything about living in Thailand.........

Wishing you a great time in Thailand as I am having myself

"If the system is abused, it is not surprising that at a certain point there will be a crack down."

This is where I believe you are assuming a premise that does not exist: a "system". You are assuming as 'cause' as people abusing the system; and the 'effect' is the rule of law that is enforced. In Thailand, it's the other way around. The "system" exists for government officials to extort whatever they can get from the people, and lots of that money happens to come from farangs that want to live here.

[Krub]

I am not complaining either, just trying, but not making it, to understand why people expect the visa rules to match their wishes.

If the system is abused, it is not surprising that at a certain point there will be a crack down. In Thailand it takes ages for the crack down to appear but it does from time to time like with the implementation of a maximum days stay with the on arrival 30 days stamp which was/is used by some to live here permanently

As for me not knowing anything about living in Thailand.........

Wishing you a great time in Thailand as I am having myself

"If the system is abused, it is not surprising that at a certain point there will be a crack down."

This is where I believe you are assuming a premise that does not exist: a "system". You are assuming as 'cause' as people abusing the system; and the 'effect' is the rule of law that is enforced. In Thailand, it's the other way around. The "system" exists for government officials to extort whatever they can get from the people, and lots of that money happens to come from farangs that want to live here.

I respect your opinion without agreeing to your conclusion but even if it was the case the price farangs have got to fork our to live in Thailand is very reasonable as shown by the sheer number of candidates who are fighting hard to be able to stay as we are seeing with the questions in this forum.I believe one consequence of this is trying to 'use' or 'abuse' the system to the maximum.

I tend to think positive and use hurdles as a step forward.

[jstumbo]

I would not call it abusing the system.

I think that people are using visas in ways that the Thai government does not plan them to be used. So the government is adjusting things so that the visas are used for what they want them to be used for. Problem is that they are making it so difficult now to get multi-os for people that want to come visit their wives each month. Or multi-bs for people that come in on business each month. They are not doing this because they do not want people visiting their wives, or coming in to do business. They are doing it because people are using them to continuously live in Thailand.

I still think the easiest way to solve it is to make a rule that no more than 7 months in Thailand during a calendar year on any kind of visa or visa exempt entry. The only way to get around this is to have a one year extension of stay from immigration.

That would allow people that want to come for 7 months as a tourist to do it, it would allow those that want to come in on the 6 weeks on, 6 weeks off schedule to stay with their wives, and allow the people that want to come in to do business regularly. Anyone living here full time, would need an extension.

[Krub]

I would not call it abusing the system.

I think that people are using visas in ways that the Thai government does not plan them to be used. So the government is adjusting things so that the visas are used for what they want them to be used for. Problem is that they are making it so difficult now to get multi-os for people that want to come visit their wives each month. Or multi-bs for people that come in on business each month. They are not doing this because they do not want people visiting their wives, or coming in to do business. They are doing it because people are using them to continuously live in Thailand.

I still think the easiest way to solve it is to make a rule that no more than 7 months in Thailand during a calendar year on any kind of visa or visa exempt entry. The only way to get around this is to have a one year extension of stay from immigration.

That would allow people that want to come for 7 months as a tourist to do it, it would allow those that want to come in on the 6 weeks on, 6 weeks off schedule to stay with their wives, and allow the people that want to come in to do business regularly. Anyone living here full time, would need an extension.

I agree with your description of the 'problem' I call it abusing the system it might not be the right term as it seems to offend some people. It is still using the system or the rules in a way they were not intended for. Some people however seem to think that it is ok to use it in a way it was not intended to be and when some fixes are applied they complain.

All in all the Thai 'system' is not very difficult to accommodate hence the number of farangs 'living' here and wanting to live here or simply coming for holidays.

It is a great country to be enjoyed with its minor difficulties to put up with.

[TAWP]

Could you stop referring to using multiple VISAs in a row as an abuse or being illegal?

It's perfectly legal and in no way an abuse. The extension is an 'upgrade' of your status (for lack of better words) and not a requirement.

It's fully possible to live here and work with a salary under 40K/month - fully legally. Without requirement to get extension (and having to lie about family income). Therefor we can safely deduct that it's not against the spirit of the law.

[jstumbo]

Could you stop referring to using multiple VISAs in a row as an abuse or being illegal?

It's perfectly legal and in no way an abuse. The extension is an 'upgrade' of your status (for lack of better words) and not a requirement.

It's fully possible to live here and work with a salary under 40K/month - fully legally. Without requirement to get extension (and having to lie about family income). Therefor we can safely deduct that it's not against the spirit of the law.

I think it is pretty clear that a multiple entry visa that allows stays of 90 days is designed for a person that makes frequent trips to Thailand so that they do not need to get a passport full of visas. If it was meant to be used to stay for an entire year, having to do border run after border run, they would make it so that it gave you a one year stay (like an OA visa).

Does it mean that somene is abusing the system if they do that? No. Does it mean that they are not following the spirit of the law, well maybe, but it does not really matter. It is what the law says, not what the spirit of the law is. Look how many people complain that Thailand makes them waste all that money making 90 day border runs. That is because the visa is not created for people living here making 90 day border runs. It is created for people that are making multiple visits to Thailand so that they do not need a passport full of visas.

All I am saying is that I believe they are cracking down on multi visas because of all the people using them to live here. They are not cracking down on them because they do not want people to come regularly to Thailand to visit their wives or for business. Look what they are telling the people when they refuse the multi visas. They are not telling them that they need to come back for a single entry visa every time that they want to go, they are telling them to file for an extension of stay in Thailand. So they are assuming that they are living in Thailand on them, and are trying to stop that, trying to push them to an extension of stay.

The whole work permit for people under the required salary level is kind of strange. It is just one of the crazy things that makes this Thailand. Why would a country give out work permits for someone that does not qualify to stay in the country because of their job?

What they really need is a comprehensive reworking of the whole system. Make it so that if you have an extension of stay based on marriage, then you can get a work permit for any job, for any salary level. If you are not married, then you can get a work permit for a certain salary level for a job that a foreigner is allowed to work. With the work permit, you are allowed to get a extension of stay. That way the work permit and the extension have the same salary requirement. Make some kind of company that people could form if they only want to have themselves employed. With a company of this type, they pay a higher tax rate than a normal Thai company, maybe a sliding scale depending on the number of Thai employes you have. So that if later you hire one, you would pay a lower rate, and if you hired 4, then you would be back to the rate that a normal Thai company would pay. People with these companies are allowed a work permit, and an extension of stay. Then make a rule that you are only allowed 7 months in Thailand during a calendar year using a visa or visa exempt entry. That to be here more than that, you would need an extension of stay. That would allow people to be here up to 14 months if they overlapped the end of the year as a tourist, it would allow those that come many times, but do not live here.

Now if I could only get them to listen to me. Anybody got the mobile number of the head of the MFA?

[TAWP]

The whole work permit for people under the required salary level is kind of strange. It is just one of the crazy things that makes this Thailand. Why would a country give out work permits for someone that does not qualify to stay in the country because of their job?

There is no required salary level. In BKK they are not so happy giving out Work Permits for salaries under 30K, but they will in some cases. In other places they can go lower before they start moaning.

And 30K is under the family income level of 40K. And it's not always the wife is (can) work(ing).

And 30K is still several times the BKK average for normal workers.

[jstumbo]

I was referring to the required salary to get an extension of stay based on employment. They are saying, here you go, you can work, but you are not allowed to stay in Thailand to work your job. You will need to commute from another country. Of course that does not apply to those that have an extension of stay based on a Thai wife.

That is why I was saying that if I made the rules, I would make it so that if you were on an extension of stay based on your wife, that you could get a work permit for any job, at any salary. But if not, then you would only be able to get a work permit at a job that gives a salary that allows you to get an extension of stay.

[TAWP]

I was only proving that people can be here on VISA (not extension) work and pay taxes - all according to rules - and yet not qualify for extension. So, again, being on a VISA (not extension) shouldn't be considered 'wrong', no-matter what your local embassy of choice will tell you when you re-apply. They have no say and frankly are most of the time just trying to reduce their workload/do as little as possible.

[tutsiwarrior]

with a multi-entry, non-imm. 'O' I work outside of Thailand and 'visit' my home in Suphanburi when my employment contract leave arrangements allow...maybe not a suitable arrangement for an extension to this visa as the intent is that the extension applicant plans to stay in Thailand during the term of the extension...exit re-entry visa availability nothwithstanding...

if I am unemployed and expect to stay in Thailand indefinitely an extension to my visa would be in order except that I would technically have no income and would not qualify for the extension under the minimum 40k baht per month requirement...

the bastids gotchoo comin' an' goin'...

[lopburi3]

You put the wife to work at an income of 40k per month. Simple tax payments is all that is required. Problem solved.

[tutsiwarrior]

You put the wife to work at an income of 40k per month. Simple tax payments is all that is required. Problem solved.

lop, you beast ...I bet you wouldn't put your wife to work...besides, that's not part of the deal; I'm supposta work until I can't no more...then, wantin' to relax during my well deserved retirement I'm told I can't get an extension 'cause I ain't got no money an' hit the road jack, etc...oh, boo hoo hoo hooo

[lopburi3]

No money no honey anywhere.

If no money you still have the multi entry option. And with a child you have the option to live with them after you become 50 without financial requirements under current rules

[tutsiwarrior]

No money no honey anywhere.

If no money you still have the multi entry option. And with a child you have the option to live with them after you become 50 without financial requirements under current rules

sad but true ...a tragic commentary on the status of poor, honest, hardworking falangs under draconian thai immigration policy...'falang scum; go be poor, honest and hardworking sumwhere else...'

... ... ... ...

Edited May 15, 2008 by tutsiwarrior

[Captain Chaos]

If no money you still have the multi entry option.

Surely the multi entry option is being removed even if you do have money??

[lopburi3]

Actually it seems easier to obtain in both Penang and KL presently than in some time. Singapore was unique in there system so should not be taken as anything but that location.

[Captain Chaos]

Captain Chaos, you said in an earlier post that you work 3 minutes away from the embassy in Singapore, I suggest that you might call in there asking about multiple entry "O" and post the results in this thread.

Cheers.

LOL - when I have passed before 9 there has always been a queue - it might be 3 minutes away but it might take a lot longer to go and enquire

A phone call might do it

If I remember next week I might be cheeky and get my assistant to phone our Visa Agents and have them enquire - it will seem strange I am asking for this type though as we usually only want biz visa's for anywhere and the assistant knows the ex and myself are split up and I do not need this visa - she will be suspecting I have another one on the go and the rumours will be all round the office

Visiting the embassy is a definite Friday morning job - it's usually relatively quiet then - if it's a slow morning at work I'll see if I can find time to go ask a few questions...

Latest update:

Finally got around to swinging by the embassy - Friday morning, very quiet as usual, maybe 10 people in there tops. Unfortunately it was a Thai lady on the visa counter whose English was fair but not brilliant, rather than the Singaporean Malay lady who I have found to be a bit clearer. Anyway...

I asked how I renewed my multiple entry 'O' visa later this year. She immediately pulled a face and then asked if I was a Singapore resident or working in Singapore. When I answered 'yes' to this, she said it is possible but 'subject to approval'. As well as the usual marriage cert & wife's ID card, you also need 'proof of finances' ie. bank statement but she didn't specify a number this year, and the key document appears to be a letter from your employer in Singapore confirming your status.

(Personally I think I would throw in a photocopy of my Employment Pass and the last three months payslips as well)

The fee is now S$250, and she said there is 'no refund' even if your application is unsuccessful - I guess they'd give a single entry visa but this is neither use nor ornament to me.

I know the subject of multiple entry 'B' visas has been raised on this forum a few times. There was a Singaporean lady trying to get such a visa standing in the queue a few places ahead of me. I tried to earwig her conversation at the visa counter window and it appeared to be that she had to apply for a single entry visa first - 'we have to follow the system' - but she could apply for a multiple entry visa after using 5 single entry visas or something like that ... I emphasise that the conversation wasn't that clear from where I was standing so do not rely on this info without confirming it first! Up to you whether you can be bothered with 5 single visa applications but might be useful to those with a long term requirement to make biz trips to Thailand (Prak?)

My conclusion is that Singapore is definitely not a multiple entry visa renewal option at the moment unless you are resident in Singapore and/or in paid employment here.

Not good news but nonetheless hope it is helpful.

CC

[hansnl]

"Who should the sovereign Thai government consult about their immigration law, rules and policies"

Probably best to stick with the somtam lady, she seems to be doing a good job so far.

Cheers

And as far as the sovereign nation state of Thailand goes she has more rights to do so?

I do find it a tad amusing some farangs think Thailand should change policies to suit them or that they really make a difference at the macro level - the same guy's usually whinge about immigrants in their home country - there are a few prime examples of those - giving the reason they left the UK or wherever as too much immigration then whinge about where they are immigrants!

If immigrant groups were influincing policy in the UK they become all "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" but they have all the solutions to Thailands immigration policies all worked out (and worked up about it too)

You are right, Thailand has the right to do whatever it wants to do.

About whining UK visitors to Thailand.

If immigrants come to the UK, or any other country in Europe, very many will try to get financial aid, free housing, free education & all, from the government of that country.

Read: from the taxpayers!

If "non-immigrants" come to Thailand, most of the time they bring money into the country, and while there is no financial aid available whatsoever, there will be no application!

See the difference?

Personally, I spent nearly several milllion baht when I came into this country, I get a lousy 1,5% intrest on my several million baht in the Thai bank, I spend about 60,000 baht every month in shops, spend at least 15,000 baht a month to pay for work done on the house and the cleaning staff, support a school and a Wat, try to do this blending in, to stay in the background, try to behave like a guest.

I try to keep myself to the rules, even if they are changed all the time.

And when I have to go for my extension of stay I feel like a criminal begging for mercy.

Or at least, that is how I feel I am treated.

I can imagine that a legal or illgal immigrant into Europe feels the same

But, what a difference!

The legal, or illegal immigrants in Europe think they have rights only, no duties, and act accordingly.

The legal, or illegal "non-immigrants" and every other farang living in Thailand in whatever way, have no rights at all, or so it seems.

However, you are right, Thailand has the right to do anything they like.

But, it might be a matter of decency, a matter of humanity, a matter of good will, maybe even a matter of honour, to maybe sometimes be a little consistant in the rules?

Maybe even try to listen to a lot of people who bring a lot of money into the country, maybe find out what they really want, maybe only would like, maybe think?

It might become a marketing matter!

For the idea the farang really does not make any difference at the macro level, I beg to differ.

I wonder if anybody in Thailand has any idea about the amount of money spent by the farang in Thailand.

If I see how many tourists, long time and short time, are pouring into Thailand from all the farang countries every year, I guess there must be some influence at least.

Remember, they are guests, and I wonder if it might not be handy, in the long run, to treat guests well?

[comproez]

Hi, i just called the Thai embassy in Singapore yesterday.

I think i spoke with the malay lady. She told me that the embassy is not issuing multiple entry O visa anymore.

She mentioned i should contact the local immigration authority for an extension of stay.

One thing that surprised me is she talked about showing 300,000 baht.

Any chance there is any truth in this? Or she just do not know what she is talking about.

Thanks.

[lopburi3]

The truth is that Singapore does not issue multi entry visas. They do not know the immigration requirements for extension of stay. For family it is 40k per month joint income.

[frankrimmer]

No money no honey anywhere.

If no money you still have the multi entry option. And with a child you have the option to live with them after you become 50 without financial requirements under current rules

Hi Lopburi3

I have seen reference made a couple of times to this option but have not seen the full details and requirements listed, could you or anyone post these please?

I have a son born last November and would certainly be interested if this was an option.

Thanks

Frank

[Lite Beer]

No money no honey anywhere.

If no money you still have the multi entry option. And with a child you have the option to live with them after you become 50 without financial requirements under current rules

Hi Lopburi3

I have seen reference made a couple of times to this option but have not seen the full details and requirements listed, could you or anyone post these please?

I have a son born last November and would certainly be interested if this was an option.

Thanks

Frank

It is possible, but many Offices are reluctant to issue this. Maybe best to try in Bangkok or contact Sunbelt.

It is covered in (5)

7.17 In the case of a family

member of a Thai

(applicable only to

parents, spouse, child,

adopted child or child

of his/her spouse):

Permission will be

granted for a period of

not more than 1 year

at a time.

(1) The alien has obtained a

temporary visa (NON-IM); and

(2) Proof of family relationship;

and

(3) In the case of a spouse, the

marital relationship shall be de

jure (legitimate) and de facto;

or

(4) In the case of a child, adopted

child or child of his/her spouse,

the said person must not be

married, must be living with the

family, and must be less than

20 years of age; or

(5) In the case of a parent, the said

person must be 50 years of age

or over;

1. Application form

2. Copy of the applicant's passport

3. Proof of family relationship,

e.g., marriage certificate, birth

certificate, registration of

legitimate child, household

registration certificate, proof of

child adoption, or any other

evidence issued by the authority

or government agency

concerned

4. Proof of Thai nationality of

child such as identification card,

household registration

certificate or other document

issued by the authority or

government agency concerned

Edited August 6, 2008 by Lite Beer

[frankrimmer]

Lite Beer

Thanks for that, not sure what Kedawi is rambling on about though?

Frank

[Lite Beer]

Lite Beer

Thanks for that, not sure what Kedawi is rambling on about though?

Frank

That is the official Thai Immigration translation. I must admit it is not easy to understand.

But Sunbelt went over it when it first came out and explained it all.

I also would like a free holiday in Europe.