Aloe Vera - Miracle Plant?

[awakened]

AFAIK there have not been any studies on the effect of aloe vera juice on the incidence of any type cancer. Such studies are exteremely hard to do and require many, many years of prospective follow up.

I posted the link so that you would read 'There are hundreds of studies on Aloe Vera and the colon.' Of course one needs to do the follow up.

???? ''There is early evidence that oral aloe may reduce the risk of developing lung cancer'. This was from the Merk site. They use the word 'evidence' so I assume there is some.

Just a point about studies. The medical world can be justly proud of the dedication and integrity of many of its researchers. The quality of their research may very well be unimpeachable. That is not really the issue. When a doctor botches an operation, when a drug harms a patient, when the public has lost faith in Allopathic medicine to cure, published studies don't mean a dam_n thing. You could throw a mountain of studies at me and I am still going to investigate alternatives. It just isn't credible that there aren't any cures out there and if there are, I'm going to do my damndest to find them and if, in that effort, I see that cures ARE out there and they are being deliberately suppressed I'm going to feel mightily resentful. Wouldn't you?

I read that 30% of big pharma drugs are derived from the 'active' ingredients of natural products. Isn't that confirmation that they must have some efficacy? Wouldn't the drug companies have conducted studies? Whether all those studies see the light of day is a different matter. If I was a private for-profit corporation would I announce to the world that my $200 a pop pill is a synthesized version, replete with toxic side effects, of a common herb, shrub or tree bark, that can be picked up in your neighbours garden for next to nothing? Of course not. It would hurt my bottom line:

I think the cold reality is:

IF IT CAN'T BE PATENTED OR OTHERWISE PROVIDE A SUSTAINED PROFIT, REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD IT IS, THAT MEDICINE WILL NOT SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.

(sorry, can't reduce the font for some reason)

[kat]

Is it really all in our imaginations?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5266884912495233634

Nutricide - Criminalizing Natural Health, Vitamins, and Herbs - 40 min - Sep 2, 2006

Natural Solutions Foundation - www.healthfreedomusa.org

The Codex Alimentarius is a threat to the freedom of people to choose natural healing and alternative medicine and nutrition. Ratified by the World Health Organization, and going into Law in the United States in 2009, the threat to health freedom has never been greater. This is the first part of a series of talks by Dr. Rima Laibow MD, available on DVD from the Natural Solutions Foundation, an non-profit organization dedicated to educating people about how to stop Codex Alimentarius from taking away our right to freely choose nutritional health.

http://www.codexalimentarius.net/web/index_en.jsp

The Codex Alimentarius Commission was created in 1963 by FAO and WHO to develop food standards, guidelines and related texts such as codes of practice under the Joint FAO/WHO Food Standards Programme. The main purposes of this Programme are protecting health of the consumers and ensuring fair trade practices in the food trade, and promoting coordination of all food standards work undertaken by international governmental and non-governmental organizations.

[Crushdepth]

The Codex Alimentarius is a conspiracy? The codex doesn't deal with nutritional quality of food (only food safety). That's funny. Call me crazy but I think having internationally recognized baseline food safety standards is a dam_n good idea.

[AmeriThai]

AFAIK there have not been any studies on the effect of aloe vera juice on the incidence of any type cancer. Such studies are exteremely hard to do and require many, many years of prospective follow up.

I posted the link so that you would read 'There are hundreds of studies on Aloe Vera and the colon.' Of course one needs to do the follow up.

???? ''There is early evidence that oral aloe may reduce the risk of developing lung cancer'. This was from the Merk site. They use the word 'evidence' so I assume there is some.

Just a point about studies. The medical world can be justly proud of the dedication and integrity of many of its researchers. The quality of their research may very well be unimpeachable. That is not really the issue. When a doctor botches an operation, when a drug harms a patient, when the public has lost faith in Allopathic medicine to cure, published studies don't mean a dam_n thing. You could throw a mountain of studies at me and I am still going to investigate alternatives. It just isn't credible that there aren't any cures out there and if there are, I'm going to do my damndest to find them and if, in that effort, I see that cures ARE out there and they are being deliberately suppressed I'm going to feel mightily resentful. Wouldn't you?

I read that 30% of big pharma drugs are derived from the 'active' ingredients of natural products. Isn't that confirmation that they must have some efficacy? Wouldn't the drug companies have conducted studies? Whether all those studies see the light of day is a different matter. If I was a private for-profit corporation would I announce to the world that my $200 a pop pill is a synthesized version, replete with toxic side effects, of a common herb, shrub or tree bark, that can be picked up in your neighbours garden for next to nothing? Of course not. It would hurt my bottom line:

I think the cold reality is:

IF IT CAN'T BE PATENTED OR OTHERWISE PROVIDE A SUSTAINED PROFIT, REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD IT IS, THAT MEDICINE WILL NOT SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.

(sorry, can't reduce the font for some reason)

Natural ingredients are often the source of finding new remedies, but not always included from such sources. Many labs try to determine the molecular structure of the natural ingredient, then synthesize it. It's not always practical to actually use the natural ingredients for a number of reasons. One reason is that potency can vary in the natural sources. By chemically synthesizing the ingredient, it helps ensure the potency is at the same level when mass producing.

[kat]

The Codex Alimentarius is a conspiracy? The codex doesn't deal with nutritional quality of food (only food safety). That's funny. Call me crazy but I think having internationally recognized baseline food safety standards is a dam_n good idea.

uhm, I provided both links so that you could look at both and figure it out, including the website of Codex. According to some who are petitioning the U.S. Congress right now, the FDA is using the arm of Codex Alimentarius to severely limit individual accessibility to natural herbs and supplements. Call me crazy, but I like to listen to all sides, especially by people who have a documented case to make against large, multinational interests under the guise of regulatory agencies.

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organ...mpaign_KEY=7185

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?page_id=157

Codex Alimentarius Summarized in 7 Points

HealthFreedomUSA.org, the website of the Natural Solutions Foundation, is beholden to no one: our only interest is health freedom. Rima E. Laibow, MD, successful natural medicine physician since the 1970s, has studied 16,000 pages of Codex documentation. Her conclusion is that people who say that Codex is “consumer protection”, “voluntary”, or “harmless” are, at best, seriously mistaken.

1) Started in 1962 by UN, Imposed by WTO Sanctions

Codex Alimentarius was created in 1962 as a trade Commission by the UN to control the international trade of food. Its initial intentions may have been altruistic but it has been taken over by corporate interests, most notably the pharmaceutical, pesticide, biotechnology and chemical industries.

Codex Alimentarius is backed up by the crippling trade sanctions of the World Trade Organization (WTO). Any non Codex-compliant nation would face huge economic punishment since they would automatically lose in any food-trade dispute with a Codex compliant country.

2) “Nutrients are Toxins” Is Junk Science

Codex Alimentarius Commission (CAC) has two committees which impact nutrition.

One of them, the “Codex Committee on Nutrition and Foods for Special Dietary Uses” (CCNFSDU), is chaired by Dr. Rolf Grossklaus, a physician who believes that nutrition has no role in health. This is the “top-guy” for Codex nutritional policy, and he has stated that “nutrition is not relevant to health”.

As unbelievable as it may sound, Dr. Grossklaus actually declared nutrients to be toxins in 1994 and instituted the use of toxicology (Risk Assessment) to prevent nutrients from having any impact on humans who take supplements! It is worth mentioning that Dr. Grossklaus happens to own the Risk Assessment company advising CCNFSDU and Codex on this issue. This company makes money when its toxicology services are used for the “assessment” of nutrients. Here in the U.S. we call that a “conflict of interest”.

Codex is made up of thousands of standards and guidelines. One of them, the Vitamin and Mineral Guideline (VMG), is designed to permit only ultra low doses of vitamins and minerals (and make clinically effective nutrients illegal). How can the VMG restrict dosages of vitamins and minerals? By using Risk Assessment (toxicology) to assess nutrients.

While Risk Assessment is a legitimate science (it is a branch of toxicology), it is the wrong science for assessing nutrients! In fact, in this context, it is actually junk science. Biochemistry, the science of life processes, is the correct science for assessing nutrients. Codex Alimentarius treats nutrients as toxins, which is literally insane.

Nutrients are not toxins - they are essential for life.

No matter what Codex Alimentarius officials say to convince you that Risk Assessment is a “science-based” approach to nutrients, it is not.

And it is worth repeating that Dr. Grossklaus, the head of Codex Alimentarius, owns the Risk Assessment company advising CCNFSDU and Codex on the “benefit” of using Risk Assessment to assess nutrients.

3) Not Consumer Protection - That’s Propaganda

Contrary to the propaganda, Codex Alimentarius has nothing to do with consumer protection. Nothing! Codex is about the economic ambitions of multi-national corporations, in particular, the pharmaceutical industry.

Using their multi billion-dollar marketing budgets, these industries have launched a massive media propaganda campaign to paint Codex Alimentarius as a benevolent tool of “consumer protection”, as well as to negatively taint the image of natural health options and mislead people to fear them as “dangerous”, so they will take drugs (which really are dangerous). Natural health products and options have an amazing safety record and are remarkably effective, especially when compared to pharmaceutical drugs.

Unfortunately, one-time defenders of health freedom such as National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA) and Council for Responsible Nutrition (CRN) have joined the propaganda bandwagon and are spreading false information saying that Codex Alimentarius is either “harmless” or benevolent “consumer protection”. Neither is true.

The membership of these one-time defenders of health freedom has become permeated by people from the pharmaceutical industry (for example, CRN counts as its members corporations such as Monsanto� and Bayer�).

4) Codex: Serious Threat to Health and Health Freedom

If Codex Alimentarius is implemented in the United States of America, therapeutic dosages of vitamins and minerals (and all other nutrients soon to follow) will become unavailable because they will literally become illegal.

Here’s how it would work, in a nut-shell:

Due to the junk science use of Risk Assessment (toxicology) to assess supposedly toxic nutrients, a false belief is being engineered saying that “nutritional supplements are dangerous to people’s health”.

Using this false belief generates calls to “protect” people from these “toxic” nutrients. After the calls come the bills to set ultra low permissible dosages (remember, nutrients are deemed “dangerous toxins” under this false belief). If enough of us and our Congressional delegates buy this nonsense, we and Congress would blindly comply with Codex Alimentarius’ VMG. And blind compliance is what the industries behind Codex Alimentarius intend.

Blind compliance goes hand-in-hand with lack of activism. This lack of activism allows our protective laws, classifying nutrients as foods with no upper limits (such as DSHEA), to be easily repealed and replaced with draconian laws to classify nutrients as toxins. And “harmonization” with the pro-illness, pro-pharmaceutical industry Vitamin and Mineral Guideline is there to fill the void.

Only intentionally ineffective, ultra low dose supplements would be legal, with or without a prescription, on the VMG list. If enough people do not take action, we can expect to watch nutritional supplement manufacturers and, thus health food stores, to go out of business, in a domino effect. The only player left standing would be Big Pharma.

Therapeutic grade vitamins, minerals, and amino acids would be eliminated from the marketplace (although a few low-dose supplements would be allowed by Codex, as a symbolic measure to avoid suspicion about their ulterior motive).

Natural health professionals would lose the tools of their trade (nutritional supplements) and health conscious people would be unable to choose natural health options for health promotion and disease treatment.

And that is, in a nutshell, how Codex Alimentarius is poised to make Natural and Nutritional Medicine (NNM) disappear from the legal health world and go underground. Who benefits? Big Pharma.

It would take a few years for the above scenarios to be feasible (Codex Alimentarius is meant to go into full global effect by 2010). The slower the process takes, the less alarmed people will be. That’s probably the logic of the architects of Codex Alimentarius.

5) Serves Economic Interests of Sickness Industries Through WTO and Napoleonic Code

More and more people are turning to natural health products globally. The “wellness” trend is a major trend in today’s society. The more natural health products people use, the fewer drugs they buy. The pharmaceutical industry, which is part of the “Sickness Industry”, fears the inevitable shift toward natural health care.

Instead of accepting the will of the people and rethinking the future of the pharmaceutical industry, the industry has decided upon an unethical course of action: the use of deception and deceit to eliminate natural health products completely.

Codex Alimentarius is a shrewd vehicle for protecting the pharmaceutical industry from the loss of income it stands to suffer due to the inevitable growth of natural healthcare.

Codex Alimentarius is the resistance of the dinosaurs to inevitability: the burgeoning desire of humanity for a healthier, saner, and more sustainable way of life.

The World Trade Organization (WTO) intends to force Codex Alimentarius upon the nations of the world, including the U.S. This would be done under the threat of massive economic sanctions if WTO-countries do not comply with Codex Alimentarius.

Furthermore, Codex is based in the Napoleonic Code, not Common Law. That means that under Codex Alimentarius, anything not explicitly permitted is forbidden. Under Common Law, we hold that anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. The difference is the difference between health freedom and health tyranny. Codex Alimentarius would be able to ban supplements by default.

6) DSHEA Protects America From Codex Alimentarius

The Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA, 1994), an American law classifying our supplements and herbs as foods (which can have no upper limit set on their use), was passed by unanimous Congressional consent following massive grass-roots support organized by health food stores. Millions of American activists told Congress, in no uncertain terms:

“Protect nutritional supplements as foods or we will remove you from office”.

Congress listened and carried out the will of the people.

DSHEA appropriately classifies nutritional supplements as foods which can have no upper limits set on their use. DSHEA recognizes that people use nutrients safely to deal with their individually differing needs for nutrients. The concept of biochemical individuality means that people have different needs for nutrients at different times. Are nutrients toxins? No, they are not toxins. They are substances essential to prevent, treat and cure any chronic condition, in differing doses at different times in different people.

DSHEA protects the US from Codex Alimentarius’ deadly Vitamin and Mineral Guideline. We must reach our Congressional members, educate them about the facts on Codex Alimentarius and direct them to vote against anything that would threaten DSHEA.

Congress holds the keys to our health freedom. And it is their job to listen to us. Let’s not allow cynicism to tell us otherwise. We did it for DSHEA in 1994. We can do it again this year.

7) Your Action is Needed Now!

DSHEA is under significant legislative attack right now. Your letter-writing is crucial: if the members of Congress know that voting against health freedom means losing their jobs come election time, they will listen. Our job is to make sure they get the message loud and clear. Take action via our 3 easy steps and send personalized emails to Congress right now.

After taking action on HealthFreedomUSA.org, consider getting together with others in your area and visit your Congressional members in their home offices. If we wait, we lose our health freedoms. Once we “HARMonize” with Codex, by the way, we no longer have the right, while we belong to the WTO, to repeal or change that “HARMonization”!

Conclusion

The objective of the pro-Codex Alimentarius multi nationals is to “boil the frog slowly” so that we do not wake up to it in time to avoid Codex.

Once we have “HARMonize” to Codex Alimentarius, as long as we are in the WTO, we cannot amend or change what we’ve been “HARMonize” to.

Codex Alimentarius will go into global implementation by December 31, 2009, unless We, the People, avert it. We must act now because right now, with $758 Million spent on declared Congressional lobbying by Big Pharma last year, there are members of Congress who are trying to overturn DSHEA and allow Pharma-friendly free reign for Codex. If protective laws like DSHEA are destroyed, the sanctioning power of the autocratic WTO kicks in, and it will be impossible to get out from under Codex Alimentarius. We can protect our access to high potency nutrients and stave off an adulterated food supply only by putting pressure on Congress.

If you would like more in-depth information about Codex Alimentarius before taking action, please click here.

[awakened]

My apologies. It was bad manners not to respond in full. (In blue italics)

Since aloe vera joice is a laxative and habitual long term use of laxatives -- of any type -- are known to carry risks, no one is likely to do a study that involves long term use of it.

I can't imagine anyone suffering diarrhea for any length of time without doing something about it.

It is certainly true that the financial source for a study and any afvfiliations of its researchers need to be taken into account when considering its results. So must its methodology.

That is not the main issue. The industry can wave as many studies at people as it likes. Most people never see a study so don't care. They have lost confidence in Allopathic medicine to cure and are concerned about being injured. They are voting with their feet. The industry can help or hinder in that effort. The latter appears to be the policy.

What I find odd is the uncritical acceptance of wide-sweeping claims made on websites of companies who make their money selling the product. (I would also say uncritical acceptance of their studies except that there don't seem to be any actual studies, at least none that can be verified as actaully existing).

I agree. Almost as odd as the uncritical acceptance by people of pharmaceutical drugs. They walk in, the doctor gives them the pills, they say thanks and walk out again. How many doctors know all the side effects? Mine didn't. I had to tell him.

As to your general point, I agree.

A healthy degree of scepticism towards the pharmaceutical inductry is reasonable. Complete disregard for scientific studies isn't. Neither is a blind trust in claims made by the also very lucrative and equally profit-driven industry of "natural" cures.

I don't know anyone who reads scientific studies or even knows how to access them. Complete disregard is the norm. People trust professionals like you to take care of that for them.

The first 2 links posted in this thread proved to be sites selling aloe vera juice.. Do you really think it reasonable to accept their claims at face value simply because they aren't part of the established medical profession?

Not at all. I have visited many sites. Often they simply cut and paste the same marketing blurb. In the round, the mass of sites and anecdotal evidence does lend weight to particular claims. Sites like www.medications.com and www.earthclinic.com provide user feedback which support decision making.

A very good site that isn't selling anything is www.cancertutor.com. It's well worth a look and I would be interested in your thoughts on some of the purported cures.

The simple reality is that the "established"medical profession is not part of a vast evil conspiracy but rather a diverse group of professionals many (but not all) of whom are to various degrees influenced by profit considerations. The exact same (except the group also including a fair number of non-professionals) is true of the "alternative" health field.

Why should your 'simple reality' be correct and my simple reality not? I have done a lot of research. Countless hours. Aldous Huxley said... 'Seek the truth and the truth will set you free'. What did he mean?

The established medical profession does not have to be part of an evil conspiracy. They, like the rest of us, just have to be LED by one. If you watch the movie 'Zeitgeist' www.zeitgeistmovie.com you will be amazed. As is everyone who sees it. Please. Even if you are skeptical.

Also, any chapter of the Bush unauthorised biography (it's online) will drop the scales from your eyes and if you have some spare time, seek out the film 'Empire of The City'. It's on google video or torrent from here...

http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4032031/EMPIRE..._-_VERY_GOOD%5D

Again you will be amazed.

The movie 'Sicko' with Michael Moore which deals with the state of medicine in the U.S. highlights the kind of individuals who are legislating on health. They would sell their mother for a dollar. The health lobby is the biggest political campaign donor (bribe) bar none.

Whole-sale acceptance or rejection of what either group says wqithout cirtical assessment of the basis for what they say is just plain foolish.

So your critical assessment of the basis for MY views is what?

What's it going to be? Watch the movies or wholesale rejection?

Regarding aloe vera:

1) The gel and the juice of the plant are 2 different matters.

2) The gel has been extensively tested and shown to have beneficial properties in relieving inflammation when used topically. It's also very widely used in cosmetics.

3) The juice has laxative properties. Regular use of laxatives is never a good idea. Beyond this (or, for example, taking it in smaller doses that don't produce a laxative effect) there is no scientific evidence AFAIK of its effects, positive or negative. There have been reports of adverse effects and interactions with other drugs but it cannot be proven that these were due to the aloe. There are slews of unsubstantiated claims for a very wide range of supposed health benefits. Most of these are posted on websites that sell the product.

No problems so far, after 5 weeks. The terrible pains I sometimes had in my intestines after eating certain foods have stopped. There also seems to be a lessening in food sensitivity. Too early yet to be certain.

If I have any positive effects how can you believe me without a published study?

[kat]

"The legalization of toxicity and under nutrition."

"Cancer: the single most profitable condition ever know to humankind; Cardiovascular Disease - a good second; diabetes - a pretty good producer. And a whole host of other preventable diseases."

"What better way to kill the natural nutrition business than to take it over. Works every time."

*quoted from Dr. Rima Laibow in the link above.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5266884912495233634

Edited May 13, 2008 by kat

[Crushdepth]

That is really *awful* fearmongering. Many essential nutrients are toxic in large amounts - eg iron, vitamin A during pregnancy. From the Guidelines for Vitamin and Mineral Health Food Supplements:

PREAMBLE

Most people who have access to a balanced diet can usually obtain all the nutrients they require

from their normal diet. Because foods contain many substances that promote health, people

should therefore be encouraged to select a balanced diet from food before considering any vitamin

and mineral supplement. In cases where the intake from the diet is insufficient or where

consumers consider their diet requires supplementation, vitamin and mineral food supplements

serve to supplement the daily diet.

'Eat a balanced diet' hardly seems like an Evil Corporate agenda to me. I suppose this is the bit that upsets them:

3.2 Contents of vitamins and minerals

3.2.1 The minimum level of each vitamin and/or mineral contained in a vitamin and mineral

food supplement per daily portion of consumption as suggested by the manufacturer should

be 15% of the recommended daily intake as determined by FAO/WHO.

3.2.2 Maximum amounts of vitamins and minerals in vitamin and mineral food supplements

per daily portion of consumption as recommended by the manufacturer shall be set, taking the

following criteria into account:

(a) upper safe levels of vitamins and minerals established by scientific risk assessment based

on generally accepted scientific data, taking into consideration, as appropriate, the varying

degrees of sensitivity of different consumer groups;

( the daily intake of vitamins and minerals from other dietary sources.

When the maximum levels are set, due account may be taken of the reference intake values of

vitamins and minerals for the population. This provision should not lead to setting of maximum levels

that are solely based on recommended nutrient intakes (e. g. Population Reference Intake or

Recommended Daily Allowance values).

Hardly controversial stuff. Note that the Codex does not specify recommended levels of nutrient intake, just guidelines for safe use.

HealthFreedomUSA.org, the website of the Natural Solutions Foundation, is beholden to no one: our only interest is health freedom.

...and making money out of it? Unsuprisingly, the Natural Solutions Foundation has a store selling supplements and 'network marketing products' (!!) or you can just donate a big pile of money to them (see the footer of their site for links). They are using fear to generate sales publicity for their own products. Nice.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Crushdepth

[kat]

All non-profits try to raise money from donors and many have items for sale, so that is hardly controversial. Their "member organizations" are other natural health stakeholders who joined their coalition to petition congress, also nothing out of the ordinary. Smaller organizations and civic groups MUST form a coalition to oppose a mammoth opponent like multinational agribusiness, biotecs and pharmas. Again, totally conventional in American coalition politics and nothing to write home about.

Funny how you focus attention on this point and a website that sells a few supplements and tinctures, but overlook the conflicts of interest of the committee chair and the associations with multinationals such as Monsanto and Bayer, and other members of what constitutes a medico-pharma mafia with billions of dollars at stake.

I believe in the example to which you argue Dr. Laibow is talking about rendering the entire selection of natural nutrition and supplements to generic terms that anyone can find in a local Walmart, which would severely restrict the work of naturopathic professionals and non-generic supplements.

At any rate, I don't know all there is to know on this issue yet, but I do think it interesting that you seem to know so much about an unfolding issue with many levels in a blink of an eye and a wave of your hand, while many long-standing opponents, survivors, and educated medical professionals see dire problems with the multinational pharmas and corporate health industry, and particularly the United States.

So, for Dr. Laibow and everyone else who has raised the alarm of an urgent problem, it has been a figment of their imagination because you pronounce it to be so, right?

Are the consumer advocates who write about the cancer industry and the sabotage of successful non-pharma interventions hysterical fear mongers?

Were the thousands of parents with vaccine-disabled children hallucinating before it became irrefutable fact? You know, establishing that irrefutable face didn't happen overnight, but after years of many people who had to work long hours, dig out a lot of material in the face of extreme adversity while people like YOU told them they were hallucinating.

Nice. I look forward to the next reflexive waving of your hand. You'll be busy, because there are thousands upon thousands more people than Dr. Laibow to dismiss.

[Crushdepth]

while people like YOU told them they were hallucinating

No, people like me look at the available scientific evidence (with due consideration of vested interests) and make informed decisions.

but overlook the conflicts of interest of the committee chair and the associations with multinationals such as Monsanto and Bayer, and other members of what constitutes a medico-pharma mafia with billions of dollars at stake.

Personally I think multinationals with massive research expertise are legitimate stakeholders who might bring very useful experience to such a committee. At the end of the day they may make recommendations but they don't set the standards or guidelines - that is done by sessions of the member countries.

Nice. I look forward to the next reflexive waving of your hand. You'll be busy, because there are thousands upon thousands more people than Dr. Laibow to dismiss.

Nah we'll just have to disagree.

[kat]

while people like YOU told them they were hallucinating

No, people like me look at the available scientific evidence (with due consideration of vested interests) and make informed decisions.

Well then please do, because so far you've ignored all of the available evidence on this thread and focused on one facet of one example, and not very well. You overlooked irrefutable examples of people who have suffered real losses because they thought they were safeguarding their children's health with toxic vaccines, and then dismissed the Codex issue from the very shallow viewpoint of "committee". This "committee" could very well change the way average consumers around the world have access to affordable alternative medicine, handing over the "keys" or regulatory domain to their biggest rivals, the agribusiness-pharma-biotech cartel.

http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/_do...siteDoc_291.pdf

http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/

http://www.welltv.com/

International award-winning filmmaker Kevin P. Miller of Well TV announced the release of a new documentary about the threat to medical freedom of choice. 'We Become Silent: The Last Days of Health Freedom' details the ongoing attempts by multinational pharmaceutical interests and giant food companies — in concert with the WTO, the WHO and others — to limit the public’s access to herbs, vitamins and other therapies.

'We Become Silent’ is narrated by Dame Judi Dench, the noted UK actress who has won multiple Golden Globe awards, an Oscar, and a Tony for her on-stage work, in addition to dozens of other honors throughout her prestigious career.

During the 1990s, the legendary James Earl Jones narrated Miller’s film, ‘Let Truth Be The Bias.’ This hard-hitting film exposed the government's role in a guns-drawn raid at the office of a noted holistic MD, and highlighted the U.S. government’s complicity in suppressing the truth about the effectiveness of alternative/complementary medicines. ‘Truth’ successfully mobilized public support around the Dietary Supplement Health Education Act (DSHEA), which defended U.S. consumers' rights to health alternatives.

“I am releasing a 30 minute version of ‘We Become Silent’ because it is vital to engage the worldwide public about the dangers of CODEX ALIMENTARIUS,” said Miller. “If we don’t defend our health freedoms, they will be lost — and nothing would make the drug companies happier than to have free rein over our health.”

'We Become Silent’ features the only known video from inside a Codex meeting, exclusive interviews with delegates to the Codex Alimentarius Commission, U.S. Food and Drug Administration officials, two U.S. Congressmen, actor Mel Gibson, and more. Consumer activists like Dr. Robert Verkerk of Alliance for Natural Health play a major role in the documentary, as do Julian Whitaker, MD, Dr. Carolyn Dean of Friends of Freedom International, Scott Tips of the National Health Federation, John Hammell of International Advocates for Health Freedom, and many of the best-known health freedom advocates from around the world. 'We Become Silent’ is a powerful statement about the dominance of multinational corporations over personal freedoms, the WTO, Codex, and the challenges consumers face in trying to repel this monolith from their daily lives.

[awakened]

'there are thousands upon thousands more people than Dr. Laibow to dismiss.'

Indeed. People are starting to wake up.

I think it was '9-11' that finally woke me up. Many others too. The 'WMD' and 'War on Terror' fairy stories have made people wonder what else have they been lying about? As George H.W. Bush said "if the American people knew what we have done, they would string us up from the lamp posts."

Films such as 'Zeitgeist', 'The War on Democracy' by John Pilger and 'War made Easy' give us worrying glimpses of 'what they have done'. That 50% of the American public now believe 9-11 was perpetrated by its own government is a remarkable figure considering the solid lock the media has on propaganda.

The mistake people make is to believe that the lies are confined to warmongering. Every area of life is infected, particularly medicine. I believe strongly that the assault on our immune systems through deliberate poisoning of our food, air (through military 'germ warfare and nuclear 'testing'), http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...4398507,00.html medicines, vaccines and water is less to do with market efficiencies hogwash and more to do with ensuring a steady stream of profits for a corrupt elite, who have cleverly harnessed 'science' to their cause.

Even a cursory investigation of fluoride, a highly toxic waste material of aluminium factories, should have us all up in arms, yet we are strangely silent.

http://www.alternativehealth.co.nz/article...defantasies.htm

http://www.communicationagents.com/chris/2..._or_harmful.htm

The only way that people can put an end to this is to expose what is happening rather than shoot the messengers because they don't want to hear the message.

As for people's reactions when faced with such information, here's an interesting take...

THE EIGHT VEILS

Finally, I understand…I think I understand anyway …

It's not that those who don't see that their freedom is vanishing under the leadership of the power-elite "don't want to see it"—they simply can't see what is happening to them because of the unpierced veils that block their view.

Behind the first veil:

There are over six billion people on the planet. Most of them live and die without having seriously contemplated anything other than what it takes to keep their lives together. Ninety percent of all humanity will live and die without having pierced the first veil.

The first veil:

Ten percent of us will pierce the first veil and find the world of politics. We will vote, be active and have an opinion. Our opinions are shaped by the physical world around us; we have a tendency to accept that Government officials, network media personalities and other "experts" are voices of authority. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the second veil.

The second veil:

Ten percent of us will pierce the second veil to explore the world of history, the relationship between man and government and the meaning of self-government through constitutional and common law. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the third veil.

The third veil:

Ten percent of us will pierce the third veil to find that the resources of the world, including people, are controlled by extremely wealthy and powerful families whose incorporated old world assets have, with modern extortion strategies, become the foundation upon which the world's economy is currently indebted. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the fourth veil.

The fourth veil:

Ten percent of us will pierce the fourth veil to discover the web of Illuminati, Freemasonry and the other secret societies. These societies use symbols and perform ceremonies that perpetuate the generational transfers of arcane knowledge that is used to keep the ordinary people in political, economic and spiritual bondage to the oldest bloodlines on earth. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the fifth veil.

The fifth veil:

Ten percent of us will pierce the fifth veil to learn that the Masters of the secret societies are in possession of ancient knowledge and advanced energy technology they keep hidden, while they create oil wars for profit. They control the actions of their 'elected' politicians/servants/soldiers as offhandedly as we tell our children when they must go to bed. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without having pierced the sixth veil.

The sixth veil:

Ten percent of us will pierce the sixth veil where the devils and demons are real and are the controlling forces behind the Masters of the secret societies. Ninety percent of the people in this group will live and die without piercing the seventh veil.

The seventh veil:

I do not know what is behind the seventh veil. I think it is where your soul is evolved to the point you can exist on earth and be the man Christ was claimed to be, and brighten the world.

The eighth veil:

Piercing the eighth veil probably reveals God and the pure energy that is the life force in all living things - which are, I think, one and the same.

If my math is accurate there are only about 60,000 people on the planet who have pierced the sixth veil. The irony here is too incredible: Those who are stuck behind veils one through five have little choice but to view the people who have pierced the veils beyond them as insane. With each veil pierced, exponentially shrinking numbers of increasingly enlightened people are deemed insane by exponentially increasing masses of decreasingly enlightened people. "

Adding to the irony, the harder a "sixth or better veiler" tries to explain what he is able to see to those who can't, the more insane he appears to them.

The veils and the state

Behind the first two veils we find the great majority of people on the planet. They are tools of the state: Second veilers are the gullible voters whose ignorance justify the actions of politicians who send first veilers off to die in foreign lands as cannon fodder -their combined stations in life are to believe that the self-serving machinations of the power-elite are matters of national security worth dying for.

Third, fourth, fifth and sixth veilers are of increasing liability to the state because of their decreasing ability to be used as tools to consolidate power and wealth of the many into the hands of the power-elite. It is common for these people to sacrifice more of their relationships with friends and family, their professional careers and personal freedom with each veil they pierce.

Albert Jay Nock (1870-1945), author of "Our Enemy, The State" (1935), explained what happens to those who find the seventh and eighth veils: "What was the best that the state could find to do with an actual Socrates and an actual Jesus when it had them? Merely to poison one and crucify the other, for no reason but that they were too intolerably embarrassing to be allowed to live any longer."

Conclusions

And so now we know that it's not that our countrymen are so committed to their lives that, "they don't want to see," the mechanisms of their enslavement and exploitation. They simply "can't see" it as surely as I cannot see what's on the other side of a closed curtain.

The purpose of this essay is threefold:

1. To help the handful of people in the latter veils to understand why the masses have little choice but to interpret their clarity as insanity;

2. To help people behind the first two veils understand that living, breathing and thinking are just the beginning and;

3. Show people that the greatest adventure of our life is behind the next veil because that is just one less veil between ourselves and God.

Author Unknown

[awakened]

Kat

Thank you for the links you have posted.

I'm sure that most people don't read them, they are too busy justifying their own prejudice.

But then, aren't we all.

[moldy]

I'm one of those fortunate to live close to Aloe Vera farms and have for the last month been taking fresh aloe vera juice, blended with a little fresh ginger to assist repair of my intestines. I was given 6 large plants to put in my garden.

I came across this article COMMERCIAL LINK DELETED which claims wonderful results for Aloe Vera and noted that I'm probably not drinking enough to have the effect I was hoping for and can also improve the taste!

I post this since the author states that Aloe Vera drinks in stores are unlikely to have any beneficial effect and can instead be harmful.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating so I'm trying it out for myself.

Will post if anything happens.

bet you come unstuck. Nobody gets off this planet alive my friend. Better to get a few bevvies in.

[awakened]

bet you come unstuck. Nobody gets off this planet alive my friend. Better to get a few bevvies in.

Thanks, moldy.

I'm well aware that one or two is supposed to be healthy but these days I don't like the taste of it, nor the way my head spins after just one pint and I don't want to inflict boozy breathe and cigarette-smelling clothes and hair on my g/f.

My father-in-law died at 49 with a bottle of whiskey in his hand. My father died at 54 from booze-induced diabetes and subsequent heart failure. Being an ex-serviceman, I had a whale of a time on the p**s and on a couple of wild binges, nearly joined them. I have watched too many of my friends drink their health, relationships and finances into oblivion.

Maybe that's the kind of death you fancy. Not me. I just want to die peacefully (sober) in my sleep.

Just 'cos I haven't got there yet, doesn't mean I have to fall back on Dr Smirnoff.

Good for you if you think you have it sussed

[PrBkkPr]

I mean no harm to anybody and I wish everyone good but those of you are so adamant against alternative therapies ( I believe in the co-existence of both alternative and also modern day medicine) and constantly regard it as quacks, if the day does come and you are diagonised with cancer and modern day day medicine cannot help......I would like to see if you resort to alternative therapies like herbs, energy-healing, etc.

[Gary A]

What (insert culprit) don't want you to know. CRAP! I get so sick of well meaning people talking conspiracy theories that I am often rude to them. I had very high blood pressure and stomach problems for years. Now I am out of the rat race and eat about 95 percent Thai food, super hot peppers and all. Is it the diet? Not likely. Stress is the killer. I have lost maybe 20 pounds with the change to a Thai diet. My wife is a great cook. Since I now have no stress, my blood pressure has dropped to the point that if I stopped smoking I wouldn't have to take a tiny half tablet of Anapril every day. Even my pulse has dropped about 10 beats a minute. My stomach is at peace.

Eating aloe vera? Mushrooms are natural too but you better know which ones to eat. I have two cups of coffee in the morning and a few beers a couple times a week. All things in moderation is the secret.

[awakened]

What (insert culprit) don't want you to know. CRAP! I get so sick of well meaning people talking conspiracy theories that I am often rude to them. I had very high blood pressure and stomach problems for years. Now I am out of the rat race and eat about 95 percent Thai food, super hot peppers and all. Is it the diet? Not likely. Stress is the killer. I have lost maybe 20 pounds with the change to a Thai diet. My wife is a great cook. Since I now have no stress, my blood pressure has dropped to the point that if I stopped smoking I wouldn't have to take a tiny half tablet of Anapril every day. Even my pulse has dropped about 10 beats a minute. My stomach is at peace.

Eating aloe vera? Mushrooms are natural too but you better know which ones to eat. I have two cups of coffee in the morning and a few beers a couple times a week. All things in moderation is the secret.

CRAP! I get so sick of ignorant people dismissing what's in the public domain as conspiracy theories that I usually don't waste my time with them.

Did you know the Statue of Liberty was a gift from French freemasons to New York freemasons? It's engraved on the statue.

Take a look at the back of your dollar bill and examine the two great seals. They consist of Freemasonry symbolism, 'Announcing the birth of the New World Order' is in Latin on the left seal. The all-seeing eye (as in Lord of The Rings) is on the left seal as is a pyramid. What do they mean and why are they on the bill? What do the other symbols mean?

http://www.geocities.com/endtimedeception/seal.htm

Why did Bush Senior announce a New World Order in front of the Senate?

Why do the people think the FED is a government institution when it's private bankers?

How many other 'central banks' around the world do these private bankers control?

Why don't governments print their own money without interest?

Do you know what fractional reserve banking is? (the world's greatest counterfeiting operation).

Why did the U.S. gov end the gold-backed standard?

Is my mortgage loan backed by anything at all or is it merely an entry in a ledger?

What happened to all the gold in Fort Knox that was handed in by the people on pain of imprisonment? Why have the bankers refused to allow an audit of the gold for many years?

Who caused the 1913 run on the banks? The great depression?

Why did the Americans not prevent Pearl Harbour when they were given ample warning?

Why do 50% of Americans now believe 9-11 was a inside job?

Who financed Hitler? Stalin? Mao Tse Tung?

Who were the 120 U.S. corporations convicted of trading with the enemy during WWII?

What happened to the Iraq WMDs? Why is Iran being setup in the same way? Is the 'War on terror' bogus?

How did the Balfour declaration come about?

What was the Tonkin Incident? The attack on the USS Liberty? The sinking of the Lusitania?

Why was JFK shot? His brother? His son? Lincoln?

Why is the CIA called the Cocaine Import Agency?

Who setup the CIA? NASA? What is Operation Paperclip?

Why has the U.S. bombed 50 countries killing millions since 1948, mostly american admiring peasants? Are ALL of them REALLY a 'threat to freedom and democracy'? Or were they instead seeking it?

Why doesn't the Catholic Church end all poverty and house the world's poor by opening its vaults? Why is it investing billions in arms companies and pharmaceuticals? Why did the Pope support Hitler? Why were hundreds of paedophiles protected?

Why did Woodrow Wilson say...

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

Woodrow Wilson, President U.S.

"World events do not occur by accident. They are made to happen...most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings."

Denis Healey, former British Defence Minister

What does Healey mean?

There are volumes of questions like these and those who take the time to investigate further have their eyes opened while those who pontificate from a bar stool are just the blind leading the blind.

I don't need to be dismissed by those who can't be bothered to check the facts. Instead I put more faith in people who are or have been in positions to know and have put their beliefs into the public domain. Like ex-Presidents and Ministers.

I don't blame you for not wanting to know. It's safer that way and doesn't raise the blood pressure.

I DO, however, wholeheartedly agree with you about stress.

And the Aloe Vera?

I'm taking it in moderation.

[Sheryl]

This thread has gotten off on so many tangents that it is no longer possible to track. I was initially going to divide it up into several threads so that those who want to keep debating one of the several different subjects that have gotten entangled could do so...but I found it impossible in reading through this to figure out what in fact some of the points under discussion where and how they did or did not relate to each other. I am therefore closing this thread now. This is not an atempt to ban any particular discussion and feel free to start separate new threads on Codex, the benefits of aloe vera, the perceived evils of modern medicine and whatever else it was that was being discussed.

Important note: I see that there have been a number of flaming and near-flaming posts in the meandering course of this thread. Due to a combination of thunderstorm induced modem failures, a heavy work schedule and the flu, I haven't been online as much as I needed to be to catch these as they occurred. I am letting them all go since at this point they are many days old. But flaming will not be tolerated in any new threads started. Keep it civil or keep it to yourselves.

Much of the anger seems to be coming from clashes over alternate "versus" conventional medicine. I put versus in quotes because it does not have to be viewed in that way altho some people do so.

Those of you who want to post against modern medicine are welcome to do so as long as you don't misrepresent opinion as proven fact, quote studies that don't in fact exist etc. This will tend to happen if you take what you find on some websites as true without checking them out a bit. In which case expect moderatpr intervention. Everyone has a right to express their opinions, but not to make factually inaccurate statements that mislead people on topics directly related to their health....or reprint same done by others.

Those of you who object to the opinions of the anti-modern medicine group , please either reply in a calm factual way or ignore.