younghusband Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 "fluent" though is a definable standard....many people who claim to be "fluent" are in fact "conversational".most people over estimate their ability to speak another language too. I think this is correct.A year or so ago there was an interesting programme on Thai TV with the British, Chinese and American ambassadors who were presented as being fluent.They were all very competent (the US ambo to my ear sounding the most proficient) but not fluent in the sense of being close to being confused with a native speaker.In my experience the excellent farang speakers have always been quietly modest about their proficiency, and certainly would not be bragging about it on an internet forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 "fluent" though is a definable standard....many people who claim to be "fluent" are in fact "conversational".most people over estimate their ability to speak another language too. I think this is correct.A year or so ago there was an interesting programme on Thai TV with the British, Chinese and American ambassadors who were presented as being fluent.They were all very competent (the US ambo to my ear sounding the most proficient) but not fluent in the sense of being close to being confused with a native speaker.In my experience the excellent farang speakers have always been quietly modest about their proficiency, and certainly would not be bragging about it on an internet forum. I know a guy who has been in Thailand since about 73. I once asked him to explain to a GF I had been a coal miner in a previous life as that was way way beyond my knowledge. He spoke to her and she turned around and jumped when she saw it was him - she thought it was another Thai speaking - the only time I have known that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garro Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 "fluent" though is a definable standard....many people who claim to be "fluent" are in fact "conversational".most people over estimate their ability to speak another language too. I can never make my mind up as to whether the many fluent Thai speakers are merely dillusional or just bare-faced liars I would say that in my experience that fluent westerners in Thai are very rare indded, and I am always blown away and jealous when I hear them. Most of the people who I have met, who claimed to be fluent, are intermediate at best - some not even that. This is up to them, but I think to progress in anything you need to have a realistic view of where you are currently. I agree with the comment that the better people get at speaking Thai, the less they need to blow their own trumpet. It just becomes one of the many things they can do without needing to think too mutt about. I still have a way to go to reach this stage myself - but slowly slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaede Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Many expats i see, seem to go to great lengths to constantly show themselves as being more than just a tourist. Some use Thai language in situations where it's not necessary. For example, i've seen expats in banks trying to explain something in Thai (and failing), when it seems that the bank teller's command of English is somewhat better than theirs in Thai. Another instance of trying to prove one has settled in Thailand is in the ordering of the spiciest food. Not that i question that the expat in question doesn't enjoy hot food, but there seems to be an element of pride in being able to stomach what the locals do. It sometimes even seems like the tourists themselves are doing anything to avoid the tag. Some frequent travellers to Thailand are a bit like wannabe expats, and try to convince you they really are the genuine article. Meeting with other expats i find there can be an underlying current of competition as to who speaks the most Thai, eats the spiciest food, knows the most about Thai people, and so on... So just why is it expats are so keen to distance themselves from being a tourist. And why the need to prove it every time they step outside the front door? Or have i got it round the wrong way? Perhaps it's not so much a case of not wanting to be a tourist, but more like just trying to fit in. What do you think? Uuuummmmnnn, expats are NOT tourists ? Sorry think the Chiang vest and fisherman pants belongs to the Backpacker 'Tourist' as well as the stingy old retires living on their DSS pensions(not taking a swipe at pesioners, buthere are a small tight fisted smart mouth know it all click of them, especially in Issan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palm Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 None of the fluent Thai speakers I know have your "blank stare problem" when speaking Thai: I suggest you might reflect why this is so. I often notice two Thais who are from different parts of the country will have a great bit of difficulty understanding each other Very true. I've seen this quite often. Thais having to repeat something to another Thai, and sometimes changing the words, to get the other Thai to understand them. A bit like trying to have a conversation with some Glaswegians, who speak 'English' but not the form of English I am used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garro Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 The difference between an expat and a tourist is that the expat is not on holiday. He/she is living in the country with day to day concerns about making a crust and taking care of their family. I will talk with almost anybody, and I always have time for a smile, but I might not go out of my way to meet tourists and can sometimes find their conversation a little repetitive. Not there fault, its just the way it is, and not just in Thailand. When you live in a place for a while the sights become the norm and the early excitement wanes. The need to hug and welcome every white face you see quickly fades - if this need was ever there at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 It would seem that the definition of the word expat has to include something about drinking too much and running down everything around them...the country they have CHOSEN to live in, the locals, the visitors and of course the banks, telephones and all other govt/monolithic institutions. Once you've got this to a fine art you then have to join the countries expat web sites and spout your views ad nauseum on them......OH MY GOD! I've just realised I must be an expat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 It would seem that the definition of the word expat has to include something about drinking too much and running down everything around them...the country they have CHOSEN to live in, the locals, the visitors and of course the banks, telephones and all other govt/monolithic institutions.Once you've got this to a fine art you then have to join the countries expat web sites and spout your views ad nauseum on them......OH MY GOD! I've just realised I must be an expat! LOL - I was just talking about how I had a real downer on Thailand after a year there full time even though I had visited many times previously and working there was my aim. I know it was time to leave when I walked from my apartment on Wireless to Soi 7 and counted 29 things I hated about the place by what i had seen on my short walk. Now I just visit for business or pleasure I like the place so much better than I did living there. I know people who are the same way as I was in Thailand down here in Singapore - thats why we were talking about it and I was saying I have no such feelings about Singapore. They say it takes 4 years here??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingwilly Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 of course they do, tourists are scum of the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 4 to 5 years before the rose tint washes out of your spectacles - they reckon........might have jumped the gun after one year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klikster Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 I am not going to get into a p-ssing contest with you Younghusband! I speak, read and write Thai fluently. Having been trained at the Australian Defence School of Languages, spent three years at the Embassy in Bangkok and five months as the only farang with 1,600 Thai army personnel in East Timor I was required to converse in Thai 24/7. I have no problem being understood by all levels of Thai on the phone so if they do not understand me face to face it is usually because they have no experience of Thai speaking Farangs. You are a perfect example of someone who rushes to put crap on someone without knowing the facts and more than likely one of the "expats" the OP was referring to. OUCH!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerryd Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 None of the fluent Thai speakers I know have your "blank stare problem" when speaking Thai: I suggest you might reflect why this is so. I often notice two Thais who are from different parts of the country will have a great bit of difficulty understanding each other Very true. I've seen this quite often. Thais having to repeat something to another Thai, and sometimes changing the words, to get the other Thai to understand them. Actually, that is easy to believe. If (for example) one Thai is from the South, or East, or North-East, and is speaking to a Thai from Isaan (Central/North-West) etc, they could have difficulties understanding each other. I've found that a number of my friends will slip into Lao once in a while, and I imagine some of them speak Lao-Thai the way some farangs speak Thaiglish/Thinglish (a mix of Thai and English together in the same conversation). One friend of mine seems to delight in waiting for me to say something, and then telling me a different way to say it that sounds quite different. After seeing my confused look, she explains that it is a Lao word/phrase. Sheesh, I have a hard enough time with basic Thai, let alone having Lao words and phrases thrown in as well ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 4 to 5 years before the rose tint washes out of your spectacles - they reckon........might have jumped the gun after one year! Maybe I did not get out of stange 2 of the 4 stages of Culture Shock " Stage 1 - Excitement The individual experiences a holiday or 'honeymoon' period with their new surroundings. They: . Feel very positive about the culture . Are overwhelmed with impressions . Find the new culture exotic and are fascinated . Are passive, meaning they have little experience of the culture Stage 2 - Withdrawal The individual now has some more face to face experience of the culture and starts to find things different, strange and frustrating. They: . Find the behaviour of the people unusual and unpredictable . Begin to dislike the culture and react negatively to the behaviour . Feel anxious . Start to withdraw . Begin to criticize, mock or show animosity to the people Stage 3 - Adjustment The individual now has a routine, feels more settled and is more confident in dealing with the new culture. They: . Understand and accept the behaviour of the people . Feel less isolated . Regains their sense of humour Stage 4 - Enthusiasm The individual now feels 'at home'. They: . Enjoy being in the culture . Functions well in the culture . Prefer certain cultural traits of the new culture rather than their own . Adopt certain behaviours from the new culture" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klikster Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Expats are just a growing subset of the world population. Trying to impute characteristics or behavior to a person based on their decision to live in a country other than their homeland seems a bit presumptuous. Sort of like setting up straw man standards to order to define what is or is not one of those critters. Of course it always helps to use your own private definition of "expat". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 4 to 5 years before the rose tint washes out of your spectacles - they reckon........might have jumped the gun after one year! Maybe I did not get out of stange 2 of the 4 stages of Culture Shock " Stage 1 - Excitement The individual experiences a holiday or 'honeymoon' period with their new surroundings. They: . Feel very positive about the culture . Are overwhelmed with impressions . Find the new culture exotic and are fascinated . Are passive, meaning they have little experience of the culture Stage 2 - Withdrawal The individual now has some more face to face experience of the culture and starts to find things different, strange and frustrating. They: . Find the behaviour of the people unusual and unpredictable . Begin to dislike the culture and react negatively to the behaviour . Feel anxious . Start to withdraw . Begin to criticize, mock or show animosity to the people Stage 3 - Adjustment The individual now has a routine, feels more settled and is more confident in dealing with the new culture. They: . Understand and accept the behaviour of the people . Feel less isolated . Regains their sense of humour Stage 4 - Enthusiasm The individual now feels 'at home'. They: . Enjoy being in the culture . Functions well in the culture . Prefer certain cultural traits of the new culture rather than their own . Adopt certain behaviours from the new culture" not a bad definition ....4 "stanges" - where did you find it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Many tourists have huge amounts of money and spend easily engendering resentment and inferiority. Other tourists have huge bellies of fat and live on noodles and cheap booze engendering disgust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klikster Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 It's always nice to give credit to the source where you lifted something .. kwintessential.co.uk .. 4 to 5 years before the rose tint washes out of your spectacles - they reckon........might have jumped the gun after one year! Maybe I did not get out of stange 2 of the 4 stages of Culture Shock " Stage 1 - Excitement The individual experiences a holiday or 'honeymoon' period with their new surroundings. They: . Feel very positive about the culture . Are overwhelmed with impressions . Find the new culture exotic and are fascinated . Are passive, meaning they have little experience of the culture Stage 2 - Withdrawal The individual now has some more face to face experience of the culture and starts to find things different, strange and frustrating. They: . Find the behaviour of the people unusual and unpredictable . Begin to dislike the culture and react negatively to the behaviour . Feel anxious . Start to withdraw . Begin to criticize, mock or show animosity to the people Stage 3 - Adjustment The individual now has a routine, feels more settled and is more confident in dealing with the new culture. They: . Understand and accept the behaviour of the people . Feel less isolated . Regains their sense of humour Stage 4 - Enthusiasm The individual now feels 'at home'. They: . Enjoy being in the culture . Functions well in the culture . Prefer certain cultural traits of the new culture rather than their own . Adopt certain behaviours from the new culture" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 of course they do, tourists are scum of the earth. ..."the" scum of the earth......it should be "the" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Burr Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 of course they do, tourists are scum of the earth.Bored KW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 It's always nice to give credit to the source where you lifted something .. kwintessential.co.uk .. 4 to 5 years before the rose tint washes out of your spectacles - they reckon........might have jumped the gun after one year! Maybe I did not get out of stange 2 of the 4 stages of Culture Shock " Stage 1 - Excitement The individual experiences a holiday or 'honeymoon' period with their new surroundings. They: . Feel very positive about the culture . Are overwhelmed with impressions . Find the new culture exotic and are fascinated . Are passive, meaning they have little experience of the culture Stage 2 - Withdrawal The individual now has some more face to face experience of the culture and starts to find things different, strange and frustrating. They: . Find the behaviour of the people unusual and unpredictable . Begin to dislike the culture and react negatively to the behaviour . Feel anxious . Start to withdraw . Begin to criticize, mock or show animosity to the people Stage 3 - Adjustment The individual now has a routine, feels more settled and is more confident in dealing with the new culture. They: . Understand and accept the behaviour of the people . Feel less isolated . Regains their sense of humour Stage 4 - Enthusiasm The individual now feels 'at home'. They: . Enjoy being in the culture . Functions well in the culture . Prefer certain cultural traits of the new culture rather than their own . Adopt certain behaviours from the new culture" OK my bad but do they also give credit to where they lifted it from as its hardly their original work is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klikster Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 I often notice two Thais who are from different parts of the country will have a great bit of difficulty understanding each other, so I am sure that even "expert" Thai-speaking farangs will get it from time to time.I know that I do. Especially when one is from BKK and the other is speaking Kham Muang (sp?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 of course they do, tourists are scum of the earth.Bored KW? yes...i must go and have a shower...and remove some of the scum (with definite article)from my body....I have a detergent that is very efficient at removing scum (without definite article). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 ...one doesn't want to smell like a tourist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padfoot Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I have been a tourist three times in the last year and a half. I plan on being there this fall and winter for a six month stay; a kind of practice run to see if I want to retire there. I have met several expats and have found their advice very helpful. I have also met some tourists that I wanted nothing to do with, thinking that I hope the didn't act that way at home. I hope that I am the kind of person that treats everyone with respect, though I know that's impossible. I like the think everyone was a tourist at some time and if I do move there I can be helpful to anyone having questions. I do appreciate all the members of this board for providing such a good source of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larvidchr Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 I try to be respectful, polite and happy all the time, I love to meet other people who are likewise and who extrude satisfaction with their lot, I don't care if they are king of umbulaland, the garbage collector, have stayed here 40 years or landed with the plane 5 minutes ago. I am not going to learn to speak Thai, I have had an accident some years back and is struggling with my short time memory, I did however learn to speak and understand 5 other languages in my younger years, if somebody thinks bad of me for not speaking Thai and judge me by that fact alone, it wont make me less happy, but i will feel sorry on their behalf for their very narrow outlook on other people and their lives. I wonder how many of the, you must speak Thai brigade, that actually speak anything more than their native tung + Thai?? Fortunately as this thread show there are very many with a good and pleasant sense of humor a bit of humbleness, and like I do try to brush of any chips that might have landed by accident on our shoulders. Enjoy life and try not to be to serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 As my business for many years was in Europe I made sure I could "get by" in several Western European Languages...I'm even conversational in one....but maybe due to age or the fact that it is a very different language , I have more trouble with Thai. memory or not I think that it behoves someone...if they can to make an effort if they intend to stay here long-term...shorterm even....but it's really for their own good...they can make their own nest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 I wonder how many of the, you must speak Thai brigade, that actually speak anything more than their native tung + Thai?? my [uneducated] guess is = VERY FEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hicks Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 Many expats i see, seem to go to great lengths to constantly show themselves as being more than just a tourist. Some use Thai language in situations where it's not necessary. For example, i've seen expats in banks trying to explain something in Thai (and failing), when it seems that the bank teller's command of English is somewhat better than theirs in Thai. Another instance of trying to prove one has settled in Thailand is in the ordering of the spiciest food. Not that i question that the expat in question doesn't enjoy hot food, but there seems to be an element of pride in being able to stomach what the locals do. It sometimes even seems like the tourists themselves are doing anything to avoid the tag. Some frequent travellers to Thailand are a bit like wannabe expats, and try to convince you they really are the genuine article. Meeting with other expats i find there can be an underlying current of competition as to who speaks the most Thai, eats the spiciest food, knows the most about Thai people, and so on... So just why is it expats are so keen to distance themselves from being a tourist. And why the need to prove it every time they step outside the front door? Or have i got it round the wrong way? Perhaps it's not so much a case of not wanting to be a tourist, but more like just trying to fit in. What do you think? A tourist wants to look like a traveller and a traveller wants to look like an expat... maybe. Nobody wants to be a newboy, especially if they have an inferiority complex... perhaps. Who'd want to look like an expat anyway? A washed up exile in saggy shorts, expatiating into his bia Chang. And this word "expat"? Someone who's been to all three of Patpong, Pattaya and Patong? Perhaps. Andrew Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaVisionBurma Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 And this word "expat"? Someone who's been to all three of Patpong, Pattaya and Patong? Perhaps. Andrew Hicks scary - that Thailand-interpretation definition could catch on... "So are you on holidays in Thailand?" "No, I'm actually an expat - I have lived in a few different places here" "What's an expat? "Well, I have previously lived in Patpong, Pattaya and Patong" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rott Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 [When I am at the BBQ next week at the large house of the Head of Microsoft Asia I will do a straw pole Best not try to impress him with your spelling Prakanong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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