Usa Expats: Are You Maintaining Virtual Us Residence?

[Jingthing]

MagicJack does look pretty good. I am considering getting one as a backup in case my Vonage box dies or Vonage goes belly up. MJ is much cheaper. But there are differences. Vonage you stick into your router, or recently, always incorporated into your router, so your computer does not have to be on to place and receive calls with Vonage. With MJ, your computer needs to be powered on to place and receive calls, but it does have voicemail which will pick up when your computer is off. Interestingly, MJ states that if you use dialup you may be able to communicate with other MJ users who also use dialup; otherwise of course you need some kind of high speed connection with both of them. Anyway, I do find it highly useful to have a US phone number and certainly plan on keeping one.

Sometimes it gets a little funny. I got a call the other day from what I am sure was an Indian customer service rep in India calling for a major US bank, calling me in Thailand at my US phone number to verify my residence in the US, globalization, its here to stay.

As far as brokerages being looser, I question that. If you don't believe me, call Schwab or Vanguard and tell them you want to open a Schwab US or Vanguard US account but you are not a US resident. No deal.

Edited May 19, 2008 by Jingthing

[jfchandler]

MagicJack does look pretty good. I am considering getting one as a backup in case my Vonage box dies or Vonage goes belly up. MJ is much cheaper. But there are differences. Vonage you stick into your router, or recently, always incorporated into your router, so your computer does not have to be on to place and receive calls with Vonage. Interestingly, MJ states that if you use dialup you may be able to communicate with other MJ users who also use dialup; otherwise of course you need some kind of high speed connection with both of them.

Yes Jing..you're correct...

To use Magic Jack, your computer needs to be turned on... If your computer is off, you cannot place outgoing calls, and incoming calls automatically go to Magic Jacks' voicemail, which then you can retrieve when you next turn on your computer and the Magic Jack software starts... That's because the device is a USB box that relies on its own onboard software, which loads automatically when you turn on your machine.

Magic Jack needing my PC to be on has not a problem for me, because I leave my PC on virtually all day and night, except for occasional restarts, even when I'm away or sleeping. It uses a bit more power, but it's more convenient and doing so is supposed to be better for the (extended) life of your hardware. I also use the Windows power management software to conserve power when I'm away...

Also, regarding Internet connection, I'm using it with a supposed 2 MB True DSL line here in BKK, and it's worked fine, with almost no quality problems. I say supposed because while 2 MB is the supposed maximum download speed, I often never get anything near that, especially during busy use periods. Yet the unit works fine. I've never tried using it with straight dial-up, and...Magic Jack doesn't recommend it, although I've seen in some user forums people saying they were able to do so.

[jumnien]

Telling brokerage houses that you are not a US resident is a tough call. I'm not a Thai resident, since I don't have Thai residency. I'm just here on a one year visa, for 10 years now.

[Jingthing]

Telling brokerage houses that you are not a US resident is a tough call. I'm not a Thai resident, since I don't have Thai residency. I'm just here on a one year visa, for 10 years now.

Now that is a most excellent rationalization, if ever I did see one!

Edited May 19, 2008 by Jingthing

[jumnien]

Telling brokerage houses that you are not a US resident is a tough call. I'm not a Thai resident, since I don't have Thai residency. I'm just here on a one year visa, for 10 years now.

Now that is a most excellent rationalization, if ever I did see one!

I don't meet the requirements for Thai residency, it's as simple as that. Nor have I applied for it. Have you?

[Jingthing]

No, Sunrise, I don't expect to ever qualify for Thai residency, unless they change the rules.

I wasn't dissing you, I was admiring the argument.

If ever I get confronted with this by a US company, I might use it at least in a tongue in cheek way. It brings up an existential question, can you still be alive and be a resident of NOWHERE? Of course, to the US companies, if your primary residence is outside the US, you are not a US resident. They don't care where you might or might not be a resident of, if not the US.

[jumnien]

It's a quandry, isn't it? Am I a California resident? Well, hardly. Am I a Thai resident? Well, I tend to think so, but Thailand doesn't think so, apparently. I'm easiest to reach at my hotmail address!

[Valjean]

MagicJack does look pretty good. I am considering getting one as a backup in case my Vonage box dies or Vonage goes belly up. MJ is much cheaper. But there are differences. Vonage you stick into your router, or recently, always incorporated into your router, so your computer does not have to be on to place and receive calls with Vonage. Interestingly, MJ states that if you use dialup you may be able to communicate with other MJ users who also use dialup; otherwise of course you need some kind of high speed connection with both of them.

Yes Jing..you're correct...

To use Magic Jack, your computer needs to be turned on... If your computer is off, you cannot place outgoing calls, and incoming calls automatically go to Magic Jacks' voicemail, which then you can retrieve when you next turn on your computer and the Magic Jack software starts... That's because the device is a USB box that relies on its own onboard software, which loads automatically when you turn on your machine.

Magic Jack needing my PC to be on has not a problem for me, because I leave my PC on virtually all day and night, except for occasional restarts, even when I'm away or sleeping. It uses a bit more power, but it's more convenient and doing so is supposed to be better for the (extended) life of your hardware. I also use the Windows power management software to conserve power when I'm away...

Also, regarding Internet connection, I'm using it with a supposed 2 MB True DSL line here in BKK, and it's worked fine, with almost no quality problems. I say supposed because while 2 MB is the supposed maximum download speed, I often never get anything near that, especially during busy use periods. Yet the unit works fine. I've never tried using it with straight dial-up, and...Magic Jack doesn't recommend it, although I've seen in some user forums people saying they were able to do so.

I've been looking at a 3rd option to my Vonage, which is Skype. I use Skype for calls when possible and most of the time it works fine (to another Skype user so free). They have a subscription plan that for $12.95 gives unlimited phone calls to 34 countries (OK OK read the fine print and they limit you to 10,000 minutes). Oh Thailand isn't one of those countries - which if it was I'm sure some people might bump into that 10,000 minute limit Most of the countries are landlines only but US includes mobile phones You get a local number for $2.50 a month more. Like the Magic Jack your PC needs to be on to get the call. It does come with voice mail. You can also send SMS. And there is call forwarding which is sort of complicated to explain the scenarios and who pays. OK that's really enough pimping Skype - has anyone used this? What are the gottchas? Compared to Magic Jack?

One side question: I want to get a good wireless headset to use with my PC. Bad enough for the PC to be on to talk but I don't like being teathered to it by a wired headset or speakerphone. And recommendations and places to buy in Bangkok?

[jfchandler]

Valjean...I don't use headsets now..so can't recommend on a wireless one...

But regarding your comments about Skype...which is a great service and one that I've used in the past, I'd only note and clarify that the Skype prices you mention above are PER MONTH.... whereas the Magic Jack service is a one-time payment per year of $40 to start that includes the USB device, and I believe, $20 for subsequent years that just covers the calling service. Doing that math (Skype X 12), that is a pretty sizeable difference in price regarding keeping a U.S.-based phone number.

[Valjean]

Valjean...I don't use headsets now..so can't recommend on a wireless one...

But regarding your comments about Skype...which is a great service and one that I've used in the past, I'd only note and clarify that the Skype prices you mention above are PER MONTH.... whereas the Magic Jack service is a one-time payment per year of $40 to start that includes the USB device, and I believe, $20 for subsequent years that just covers the calling service. Doing that math (Skype X 12), that is a pretty sizeable difference in price regarding keeping a U.S.-based phone number.

Thanks for the info. You bring up a good point - and within context of this thread. Is a US phone number part of maintaining the US virtual residence? I've assumed so and the $16 a month to Vonage is part of it. As mentioned above my credit cards, brokerage, etc. in the US have my US mail address and my Vonage US number. I save some money with Vonage but there are many times when I just use my mobile because I'm in the car, taxi or someplace away from my PC. I suspect Vonage doesn't save me $16 a month off my AIS bill for US calls but it's close enough.

Now it costs me Earth Class Mail $20/month + Vonage $16/month to keep this virtual address (not including call charges or mail forwarding). In the big picture $400 a year isn't a life changing amount of money but I do wonder if there's a cheaper way that gives me the virtual residence and the convenience of this combo. I could find other ways to spend the money...

[Jingthing]

i don't know how those with nobody back home do it. do banks send atm replacements to thailand? you can't use a thai address for anything financial in my experience.

mutual funds are strictly for suckers.

Yes, I agree stating foreign residence, particularly Thailand, can and does cause problems in many cases.

Regarding mutual funds, its kind of off topic, a huge portion of the investment money in the US is in mutual funds including the nation's retirement accounts, so I guess everyone is stupid. Also, INDEX funds are also mutual funds.

exchange traded index funds are not mutual funds. thats why they have a different name.

???!!!!???

I totally agree.

MUTUAL FUNDS: including actively managed accounts and also INDEX funds

EXCHANGE TRADED FUNDS: NOT mutual funds

I never said any differently.

[jfchandler]

I should mention, another advantage for me of Magic Jack vs Vonage, other than that Magic Jack is significantly less expensive, is that it's a USB device... not something that plugs into your router.

So, that means it's VERY portable... just the size of a pack of cigarettes... So you can use it anywhere easily that you have a decent internet connection... on your computer, or on a net cafe or other computer. The device carries its own onboard software that loads onto the PC you're using at that time.

About the U.S. phone number issue, I wanted an easy number for people in the U.S. to be able to call me, as well as having a U.S. number for banking and similar purposes. Not everybody has or uses Skype, so computer to computer calling only goes so far. And, trying to get my family and friends to understand and use the somewhat complicated Thailand calling cards, which provide the only decently priced non-Internet way of calling Thailand, seemed unlikely.

I started out with a $20 a month mail forwarding plan through USA2Me.com... But that meant they were forwarding my mail via USPS Global Priority Mail. Most of the time, it seemed to work OK for 7-10 day delivery times. But during Christmas, my monthly envelope took 3 MONTHS to arrive here. After that, I switched to a $33 a month plan that forwards my mail monthly by Fed Ex or DHL, two to three days typically. Worked perfectly ever since I changed/upgraded.

So, what I save on my phone service, I pay a bit extra for my mail forwarding....

[Valjean]

I should mention, another advantage for me of Magic Jack vs Vonage, other than that Magic Jack is significantly less expensive, is that it's a USB device... not something that plugs into your router.

So, that means it's VERY portable... just the size of a pack of cigarettes... So you can use it anywhere easily that you have a decent internet connection... on your computer, or on a net cafe or other computer. The device carries its own onboard software that loads onto the PC you're using at that time.

About the U.S. phone number issue, I wanted an easy number for people in the U.S. to be able to call me, as well as having a U.S. number for banking and similar purposes. Not everybody has or uses Skype, so computer to computer calling only goes so far. And, trying to get my family and friends to understand and use the somewhat complicated Thailand calling cards, which provide the only decently priced non-Internet way of calling Thailand, seemed unlikely.

I started out with a $20 a month mail forwarding plan through USA2Me.com... But that meant they were forwarding my mail via USPS Global Priority Mail. Most of the time, it seemed to work OK for 7-10 day delivery times. But during Christmas, my monthly envelope took 3 MONTHS to arrive here. After that, I switched to a $33 a month plan that forwards my mail monthly by Fed Ex or DHL, two to three days typically. Worked perfectly ever since I changed/upgraded.

So, what I save on my phone service, I pay a bit extra for my mail forwarding....

Thanks for the info, getting free of the router is a good idea. Getting a firmware update of a Linksys router that's tied to Vonage is a pain.

On Skype - the new feature they have is a local number with subscription. So you can have land line to PC connections. Your family in the US can call the US landline number and it connects to your PC or forward to another phone.

I'll check out Magic Jack - it seems there are better alternatives to Vongage now.

Thanks

[Lost in LOS]

I use my accountant as an address for everything except my tax returns. He opens any mail I might receive [mostly junk but occasionally something that slips through the cracks] and scans anything that i might need and dumps the rest. I pay us federal tax on my interest income but no state tax. I have no physical property in the states just accounts. I have BofA accounts and Ameritrade accounts that i use my accountants address. i choose to receive all my statements online however whenever i make a transfer they always mail a notification to my address of record as well as notify by email. BofA once approached me to move from amertrade to them for my brokerage. when i told them i lived in Thailand they said they are not allowed to open the brokerage account if my address is in Thailand. . my credit cards are sent to my US address and forwarded to me here since the credit card companies wouldn't send a permanent card here. Not even when i needed a replacement for a valid card. I have activated my American express card both online and also using my Thai phone number without any questions asked.

[cali]

The only solution I could find to address all of these issues to my own satisfaction was to accept the overhead in creating a Thai company

I looked into this very seriously and in the end it scared me off. One must have 4 full time Thai nationals as employees even if you don't need even one (this may be related to getting a work permit). One must fund 600 baht into their social security funds every month. One must have a real office, which is just about guaranteed cannot be your residence due to the rules. One must be at their office 8-5 monday-friday busy as a bee with their employees. There will be surprise visits from the authorities to make sure everyone is there and working. If you are not there, they cancel you as a fake. Between all the audits, reporting, costs, and rules I found no practical way to operate a simple one person sole proprietership with flexible hours like you can do so easily in the US. I visited with 3 different law firms and always came to the same conclusion.

[Rhys]

Hmm..just keep CA DL... and parents address.. that is all....

[Jingthing]

Perhaps Amex treats validating cards differently. Amex isn't exactly that popular, now it is, compared to Visa and MasterCard?

Still waiting for people to tell us what they do when they get a new credit card (after the old one expires) of the kind that requires you to call from your US phone number of record to auto validate, and you call from Thailand. No takers? How do you handle this?

(I think we have sold alot of MagicJacks via this thread!)

Edited May 20, 2008 by Jingthing

[autonomous_unit]

I looked into this very seriously and in the end it scared me off. One must have 4 full time Thai nationals as employees even if you don't need even one (this may be related to getting a work permit). ...

Yes, the employees are the main (and non-trivial) overhead I mentioned. Paying salaries and taxes for mostly redundant staff is annoying, but can be quantified... if you're trying to telecommute and charging western-scale service fees, the costs of local staff are not as prohibitive as if you were trying to run a local business that had to survive on lower local fee scales too. Certainly they can be compared to tax levels you might see operating in some western countries, as a percentage of gross receipts. If you're going to have to slice of X% anyway, does it matter to you whether it goes to one country's tax department or another, or to a lucky employee who won the "salary for holding down a chair" lottery?

Still waiting for people to tell us what they do when they get a new credit card (after the old one expires) of the kind that requires you to call from your US phone number of record to auto validate, and you call from Thailand. No takers? How do you handle this?

For the past four years, I've been traveling in and out of the US roughly 4-6 times per year, so I've just let cards and other mail pile up until my next trip. I've never experienced a situation where I couldn't activate a card from whatever phone I used to call them, whether my Thai mobile, or a random office phone borrowed during a trip. In some cases, they route me to a live person to ask me more authenticating questions before completing the activation. A few times, I've even bothered to activate them from my family member's home which has the actual address and phone number of record on the accounts.

I do benefit from the fact that any unsolicited calls to the number on the accounts will be handled by my relatives, who selectively inform the caller that I am out of the country and take contact information and suggest that the caller contact me directly via my email address (which is also registered with the account).

[jstumbo]

Wait a minute, you think 'foreign income' means 'baht'??? I get paid in USD, not Thai baht and it is direct deposited into my US Bank. Since I do not get paid Thai baht, I have no earned income for Thailand. Otherwise I would have to pay Thai taxes. I have a reliable CPA that has been doing my taxes for me each year since I have moved overseas. She has signed on the dotted line just as I have and is willing to 'go to bat' with me if I ever would happen to be audited. She has been doing taxes for over 30 years and for many expats so I am sure she is fully aware of the tax laws. By the way, 'foreign earned income' refers to any monies (US or foreign) made while working outside of the USA. Mind you there are other restrictions that must be met before you can use the foreign income form.. (i.e. residing outside the USA for 330 or more of the year)

If you are working in Thailand, then you may not have a problem with the IRS in the US, but you should be paying Thai taxes on the income you make living and working in Thailand, even if you are paid by a US company in US dollars. If you spend more than 1/2 time in Thailand, you need to be paying your taxes here.

[jstumbo]

So if all of you are from the US of A.

Just a Question?

Why do you have to report back to IRS or Immi. if you do not have tax obligations etc when you live in thai permanentally.Sorry to be a compete Nood

US citizens are taxed on world wide income. You can get an exemption on foreign earned income for the first ~$85,000.

[jstumbo]

I have a question about maintaining bank accounts related to this topic.

When you open a US bank account, they almost always require a valid US driver's license ID (number, expiration date).

If you opened an account with a valid ID and you didn't get a new driver's license on expiration, do you think they would ask for the updated ID after the ID on their record expires? I suppose it varies bank to bank, but wonder if people can share experiences on that one.

Another question about maintaining US credit cards:

When you get a new credit card, they require that you call them to activate the card. When you call them from the US phone number on their record, it is AUTOMATICALLY activated. So if you have a US phone number to do this with, very easy. What happens when you call them from Thailand from a non-US number to activate? I am sure they won't activate it automatically that way. Will they activate it at all? Experiences please. (I have heard many times many companies will not mail the card to Thailand, at all!)

-i opened my U.S. bank account without U.S. license but with my german passport.

-you can't call from Thailand. it has to be a phone number registered with the issuer of the credit card. otherwise no activation.

Most banks have different options to activate the card. I have activated mine from China and Thailand by calling the bank and activating it. Not automatically, but by calling the number and it realizes that you are not calling from your home number, so it asks you questions. I have also activated them by using them in an ATM machine, or any PIN based transaction.

[jstumbo]

what part of "my U.S. credit cards must be activated FROM a phone number located in the United States of America" is it you don't understand Jonnie?

addendum: the above-mentioned phone number is on record with the financial institution. of course i can only speak how MY credit cards are handled.

Well, all I can say is that it is not the same with my bank (Citibank) or with American Express. I can activate these from my phone in Thailand with a number that is not registered with either Citi or Amex. I certainly would not want to bank with an institution that made dealing with them so difficult when one resides overseas.

So what do you do when you get a new credit card or a renewal of an expiring card? Fly back to the US so you can make the activation call from a USA based phone number that you have previously registered with the bank I hope you enjoy all the hassle of dealing with your bank!

Usually there are multiple ways to activate a card.

If you call from the phone number that is on file with the company, you put in the number, and then it knows what number you are calling from via caller ID, so that is all that is needed. If you call from another number, it detects that you are not calling from your home number, and then asks you the security questions. Usually you can also activate them by using them in a PIN based transaction, such as an ATM machine.

[jstumbo]

Now, the question is: do US citizens as expats in Thailand purger themselves if they claim the foreign-earned income exclusion while also not paying Thai tax on those earnings? Also: is it legal for them to have Thai-earned income that is not being reported to the Thai authorities and taxed by local rules (and without holding a work permit)?

There is no requirement by the US IRS to pay foreign income tax in order to be able to qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion.

[Valjean]

what part of "my U.S. credit cards must be activated FROM a phone number located in the United States of America" is it you don't understand Jonnie?

addendum: the above-mentioned phone number is on record with the financial institution. of course i can only speak how MY credit cards are handled.

Well, all I can say is that it is not the same with my bank (Citibank) or with American Express. I can activate these from my phone in Thailand with a number that is not registered with either Citi or Amex. I certainly would not want to bank with an institution that made dealing with them so difficult when one resides overseas.

So what do you do when you get a new credit card or a renewal of an expiring card? Fly back to the US so you can make the activation call from a USA based phone number that you have previously registered with the bank I hope you enjoy all the hassle of dealing with your bank!

Usually there are multiple ways to activate a card.

If you call from the phone number that is on file with the company, you put in the number, and then it knows what number you are calling from via caller ID, so that is all that is needed. If you call from another number, it detects that you are not calling from your home number, and then asks you the security questions. Usually you can also activate them by using them in a PIN based transaction, such as an ATM machine.

I've had no problems activating cards from my Thai mobile phone. Because it's not the number of record you need to speak to an operator and give additional information to confirm it's you but it's not a problem. I also use Vonage so I do have a US number and can call from that number if needed.

[Valjean]

Now, the question is: do US citizens as expats in Thailand purger themselves if they claim the foreign-earned income exclusion while also not paying Thai tax on those earnings? Also: is it legal for them to have Thai-earned income that is not being reported to the Thai authorities and taxed by local rules (and without holding a work permit)?

There is no requirement by the US IRS to pay foreign income tax in order to be able to qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion.

I belive this statement is true as well re: the exclusion. The US IRS doesn't care what you pay or don't pay outside of US (other than to the extent you declare it as a credit on your tax form).

To your second question; The answer to that while not directly related to the first question is pretty clear I think. If you live in Thailand you are subject to Thai laws. Perhaps in the age of the Internet commerce there are some gray areas what might constitute "Thai-earned income".

[taxout]

"There is no requirement by the US IRS to pay foreign income tax in order to be able to qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion."

That statement's somewhat misleading.

You qualify for the Earned Income Exclusion by meeting either the 360/365-Day Physical Presence Test or the Bona-Fide Foreign ResidenceTest.

If you qualify under the Bona-Fide Foreign Residence Test (but not the Physical Presence Test), then your foreign tax status may affect your eligibility for the Earned Income Exclusion.

"You are not considered a bona fide resident of a foreign country if you make a statement to the authorities of that country that you are not a resident of that country and the authorities hold that you are not subject to their income tax laws as a resident. If you have made such a statement and the authorities have not made a final decision on your status, you are not considered to be a bona fide resident of that foreign country."

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=96960,00.html

[My Friend Same]

my god jing thing, what's the big deal about activating visa and mastercard from thailand? I've activated at least 20 cards in 5 years. aint exactly rocket science to answer a few security questions. talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. who needs a US phone number. obviously you have been to chicken to even try to activate a card, dont fcking sweat it. as for using visa/mastercard in atms here (credit cards not bank atms), they dont work and the card co locks up your card so you have to call them and answer security questions to unlock. they said if i want cash advance to go into a bank instead. I never have taken one though

[Jingthing]

Glad to hear some are having no problem activating US based credit cards mailed to US addresses from Thailand using Thai phone numbers.