Water Monitors

[Richard W]

Do I have the correct way of saying 'two water monitors' in the following sentence? It seems clumsy:

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

[sabaijai]

Yes that's correct, Richard, unless you wanted to use the less polite word for water monitor in which case your sentence would be shorter and the word [M]tua would crop up only once, as in

เราเคยพบเหี้ยสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[meadish_sweetball]

Avoid the 'h'-word unless you want to startle your Thai acquaintances..

Could anyone confirm or refute what I read in Anthony Diller's / Preecha Juntamalaga's Beginning Thai: that two monitor lizards were at one stage of a political crisis found stalking the halls of the Thai parliament building?

Seems to good to be true. I would love to work as a water monitor salesman in a shop for exotic animals just to able to once say with justification, to my customers: ao hîa arai?

[snowleopard]

Do I have the correct way of saying 'two water monitors' in the following sentence?  It seems clumsy:

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

Richard,

The structure you use is correct but it could also mean these things depending on the context...

1.We once met two "milch cows"at the Ancient City.

2.We once met two "cash cows"at the Ancient City.

3.We once met two "profitable things"at the Ancient City.

If you change the classifier to คน "kon",it could also mean the following...

1.We once met two "valuable persons"at the Ancient City.

2.We once met two "fortune bringers"at the Ancient City.

May I suggest that you use the word เหี้ย "hee-a" for the monitor lizard as Sabaijai has already advised?

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Tarragona]

May I suggest that you use the word เหี้ย "hee-a" for the monitor lizard as Sabaijai has already advised?

We fairly often get water monitors wandering around our area and I've only ever heard them referred to by neighbours as ตัวเงินตัวทอง, never the h- word.

[snowleopard]

Do I have the correct way of saying 'two water monitors' in the following sentence?  It seems clumsy:

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

Richard,

The structure you use is correct but it could also mean these things depending on the context...

1.We once met two "milch cows"at the Ancient City.

2.We once met two "cash cows"at the Ancient City.

3.We once met two "profitable things"at the Ancient City.

If you change the classifier to คน "kon",it could also mean the following...

1.We once met two "valuable persons"at the Ancient City.

2.We once met two "fortune bringers"at the Ancient City.

May I suggest that you use the word เหี้ย "hee-a" for the monitor lizard as Sabaijai has already advised?

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

Tarragona

We fairly often get water monitors wandering around our area and I've only ever heard them referred to by neighbours as ตัวเงินตัวทอง, never the h- word.

เหี้ย "hee-a"=water monitor (Varanus salvator)

Thais are a superstitious lot and believe that it's bad luck to be visited by a เหี้ย "hee-a" reptile.

Some even think merely mentioning the name "hee-a" will bring them misfortune and have a tabu against saying it out loud.

In order to counteract this perceived bad luck and to over-compensate in the good luck direction,they have created a euphemistic phrase for avoiding the utterance of "hee-a" altogether.That "hee-a" euphemism is ตัวเงินตัวทอง "dto-a ngeurn dto-a toong".

ตัวเงินตัวทอง "dto-a ngeurn dto-a toong" can mean several other things depending on the context.For example a musical star who generates a lot of profit for his/her record company could be a "dto-a ngeurn dto-a toong".

Sometimes other monitors also get that label stuck on them,e.g.ตะกวด "dta-goo-at",or แลน "laen"=bengal monitor;and,จะกวด "ja-goo-at"(=I think the last one is called "clouded monitor" in English,and actually is a subspecies of bengal monitor)

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Tarragona]

That makes sense. Our neighbours seem to be divided as to whether they're unlucky or lucky. Those from the NE seem to feel that they're a good omen and most of the others that they're bad. The Northerners occasionally mention how tasty they are and when family are visiting from upcountry start planning to catch some - though I don't think this great water monitor hunt has ever taken place.

[Ajarn]

Some years ago, I was asked to greet an older, respected Chinese-Thai Ajarn at CMU.... I wanted to welcome him properly, so I used 'ahh hia' (hia-mid tone) a very polite way to address someone of Chinese origin in his social position....

In my excitement, I blurted out 'Ai Hia' (hia=falling tone) Basically calling him a Dam Monitor Lizard, about the worst insult there is in Thai.

I'm grateful to the Ajarn for his sense of humour, and his hearty laugh at my unwitting faux pax.

Actually, I'm grateful to all Thais for their ability to immediately translate all my mistaken insults and still respond, "Khop Khun Khrap!"

[sabaijai]

Some 'phuu dee' might avoid hia altogether but I've heard it used in places like Phang-Nga, Krabi and Phuket where you see them a lot. Seems to be relatively OK to use when referring to its original meaning, monitor lizard, just don't use it in reference to people or in a context where it might be misconstrued to refer to people.

Then again that may have a lot to do with what kind of crowd you hang out with, too. There are some Thais around whom I wouldn't utter the word regardless, and of course foreigners are generally given less social license to curse than Thais are. In my circle of friends it's often used in a deliberately lo-so way.

Since the 'h' word has cropped up in Thai rap, it's becoming more common in everyday language, I think, at least among friends (but still too inflammatory to use with strangers).

I wonder whether Richard W's intention, in posing the question, to get a discussion going on the propriety of the 'h' word? Where are you Richard, no comment on this little sociolinguistic morsel?

Edited October 29, 2004 by sabaijai

[Richard W]

I wonder whether Richard W's intention, in posing the question, to get a discussion going on the propriety of the 'h' word? Where are you Richard, no comment on this little sociolinguistic morsel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it was simply that the phrase seems clumsy. I did wonder if it could be improved to something like

เราเคยพบสัตว์ชนิดตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [L]sat [M]cha[H]nit [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

especially after Snowleopard's comments about the polite phrase's ambiguity.

[snowleopard]

I wonder whether Richard W's intention, in posing the question, to get a discussion going on the propriety of the 'h' word? Where are you Richard, no comment on this little sociolinguistic morsel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it was simply that the phrase seems clumsy. I did wonder if it could be improved to something like

เราเคยพบสัตว์ชนิดตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [L]sat [M]cha[H]nit [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

especially after Snowleopard's comments about the polite phrase's ambiguity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do I have the correct way of saying 'two water monitors' in the following sentence? It seems clumsy:

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

Hello Richard,

One alternative way of saying your sentence,and simultaneously avoiding the ambiguity of the euphemism,could be to paraphrase it like this..

เราเคยพบสัตว์เลื้อยคลานสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ เป็นตัวเงินตัวทอง "rao khoei phop saht leu-ai khlaan sorng dto-a thii meu-ang boo-raan,bpen dto-a ngeurn dto-a thorng"=We once met two reptiles at the Ancient City.They were water monitors.

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[snowleopard]

Do I have the correct way of saying 'two water monitors' in the following sentence?  It seems clumsy:

เราเคยพบตัวเงินตัวทองสองตัวที่เมืองโบราณ

[M]rao [M]khoei [H]phop [M]tua [M]ngoen [M]tua [M]thorng [HS]sorng [M]tua [F]thii [M]mueang [M]boo[M]raan

We once met two water monitors at the Ancient City.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Richard,

Supposing those two monitor lizards appeared as a couple,you could paraphrase your sentence like this and;thus,avoid using the word ตัว 'dto-a' ad nauseam.

It goes like this...เราเคยพบสัตว์เลื้อยคลานคู่หนึ่งที่เมืองโบราณ เป็นตัวเงินตัวทอง "rao khoei pop sut leu-ai klaan koo neung tee meu-ang bo-raan,bpen dto-a ngeurn dto-a thorng"=We once met a pair of water monitors at the Ancient City.

Cheers.

Snowleopard.