Eucalyptus Growth

[maahuanao]

I realise I can't get an exact figure due to the infinite variables, but given that I'll be growing them in the sandy isaan soil that has been used previously for rice farming could anyone verify that using spacings of 2 metres between trees I should expect each tree to weigh about a ton in 7 years assuming I throw a bit of fertiliser around every year? This is what I've been told but can't seem to find any figures anywhere, I have looked, maybe in the wrong places, but I have looked.

[ozzydom]

I realise I can't get an exact figure due to the infinite variables, but given that I'll be growing them in the sandy isaan soil that has been used previously for rice farming could anyone verify that using spacings of 2 metres between trees I should expect each tree to weigh about a ton in 7 years assuming I throw a bit of fertiliser around every year? This is what I've been told but can't seem to find any figures anywhere, I have looked, maybe in the wrong places, but I have looked.

No way, maybe whoever told you that is the same people putting up signs all around our area selling Eucalyptus that grow 10 metres in the first year.

[HenryLongfellow]

A bit too much of a generalisation saying Eucalyptus, there's over 700 species of Eucalyptus. Choose the wrong species for your area and it will probably just die.

A Mallee will not even grow to 10 metres in their native environment, an Australian Mountain Ash can grow to nearly 100 metres.

[maahuanao]

I realise I can't get an exact figure due to the infinite variables, but given that I'll be growing them in the sandy isaan soil that has been used previously for rice farming could anyone verify that using spacings of 2 metres between trees I should expect each tree to weigh about a ton in 7 years assuming I throw a bit of fertiliser around every year? This is what I've been told but can't seem to find any figures anywhere, I have looked, maybe in the wrong places, but I have looked.

No way, maybe whoever told you that is the same people putting up signs all around our area selling Eucalyptus that grow 10 metres in the first year.

[maahuanao]

I realise I can't get an exact figure due to the infinite variables, but given that I'll be growing them in the sandy isaan soil that has been used previously for rice farming could anyone verify that using spacings of 2 metres between trees I should expect each tree to weigh about a ton in 7 years assuming I throw a bit of fertiliser around every year? This is what I've been told but can't seem to find any figures anywhere, I have looked, maybe in the wrong places, but I have looked.

No way, maybe whoever told you that is the same people putting up signs all around our area selling Eucalyptus that grow 10 metres in the first year.

No way? Doesn't give me a lot to go on........... how much do you reckon then? Ball park?

[ozzydom]

As HL said ,there are many varieties of Eucalypt even here in Thailand,you dont say in which area you are but you say you are going to plant in ex rice paddy so it is going to be to wet unless you have put in a lot of drainage.

Your best bet is to look around in your area at different plantations and enquire from the farmers as to the age of the trees,by comparisons you should be able to get a rough idea of what you can expect.

[jaiyen]

I realise I can't get an exact figure due to the infinite variables, but given that I'll be growing them in the sandy isaan soil that has been used previously for rice farming could anyone verify that using spacings of 2 metres between trees I should expect each tree to weigh about a ton in 7 years assuming I throw a bit of fertiliser around every year? This is what I've been told but can't seem to find any figures anywhere, I have looked, maybe in the wrong places, but I have looked.

I have planted a trial area with Eucalyptus canadulensis ( red river gum ) Do a ggogle search on this tree. The field they are planted in was a mango orchard for many years but the locals would steal the fruit so there was no profit for the family in this venture.

Mine have been in for 20 months and have reached heights between 3 and 6 metres depending where in the field they are. The soil is very fertile and there has been very good rainfall. They have been planted 1 metre apart which will encourage a fast straight growth making them ideal for posts and scaffold poles and can be harvested in omly 3 years if you want to make a quick profit but I will leave them for at least 5 years to see how they develop. I dont think they will grow wide enough for furniture use, which I think is what you are aiming for. Red River Gum is a great wood for furniture and has a lovely colour for floorboards.

I got some info from Google serches but all Thai reseach info was very old. There is a Forestry Administration Department in BKK near Chatuchak. I will be going there in a few months to get help with my next planting for next year. CSIRO in Australia is probably the best place to get info from. They have done a lot of research over the last 30 years. In my wifes village ( Near Tak ) some people have planted 2 metres apart and just left them and the trees have been overcome by weeds and many have died and a lot of them are small and not straight. It is very important that the young trees are kept weed free for the first six months. They can withstand several months of flooding too. All they need is 1 very good drink each year too survive.

[Thaicoon]

We planted a few thousand Euca trees last year, they were just sapplings, some died due to no rain, this year they are coming on well, they are about 1 metre tall at the moment, should be ready for cutting when they are 5 years old, i plan to plant a few thousand every year for 5 years, then i will have a rotation in crop, we planted 1.5 metres between trees, which is ample, some thais plant 1 metre, i had some advice off a guy i know in P/Chai, his trees are going good at 1.5 metres apart. now with all the rain we have had in buriram they are growing well, these were planted on a rough overgrown peice of ground, not rice paddy.

we did have a few die, about 100, so no big deal

One other thing is when they are growing it is important to cut the bottom stems off to keep them straight, they will then grow as straight as a dai.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Thaicoon

[maahuanao]

As HL said ,there are many varieties of Eucalypt even here in Thailand,you dont say in which area you are but you say you are going to plant in ex rice paddy so it is going to be to wet unless you have put in a lot of drainage.

Your best bet is to look around in your area at different plantations and enquire from the farmers as to the age of the trees,by comparisons you should be able to get a rough idea of what you can expect.

I have looked around at other plantations and got an idea of size, but it's the weight that I have no idea of, and the weight is the important part of whether or not it's a worthwhile venture as that's how they're sold. About 1000 baht a tonne at present I understand. As for location, in Yasothon, kind of between Amnat Charoen and Nikom Kam Soi. And no, the land isn't too wet.

Thanks for the help anyway.

[maahuanao]

OK thanks, I am hoping to just leave them to pretty much look after themselves, that's the main attraction! I can get the future mother in law to organise weeding though no problem. Actually I was intending to sell the trees for wood pulping, hadn't thought of anything else, but I shall look into the alternatives now. And yes, camaldunensis was the variety I've looked at, but all of the info I get when googling seems a bit vague......

[maahuanao]

We planted a few thousand Euca trees last year, they were just sapplings, some died due to no rain, this year they are coming on well, they are about 1 metre tall at the moment, should be ready for cutting when they are 5 years old, i plan to plant a few thousand every year for 5 years, then i will have a rotation in crop, we planted 1.5 metres between trees, which is ample, some thais plant 1 metre, i had some advice off a guy i know in P/Chai, his trees are going good at 1.5 metres apart. now with all the rain we have had in buriram they are growing well, these were planted on a rough overgrown peice of ground, not rice paddy.

we did have a few die, about 100, so no big deal

One other thing is when they are growing it is important to cut the bottom stems off to keep them straight, they will then grow as straight as a dai.

I did go and look at one plantation (about 3000 rai, owned by a member of the royal family apparently) where they were spaced at 3 metres and I was told had been planted about 8 years ago, and they were enormous!

[ozzydom]

As HL said ,there are many varieties of Eucalypt even here in Thailand,you dont say in which area you are but you say you are going to plant in ex rice paddy so it is going to be to wet unless you have put in a lot of drainage.

Your best bet is to look around in your area at different plantations and enquire from the farmers as to the age of the trees,by comparisons you should be able to get a rough idea of what you can expect.

I have looked around at other plantations and got an idea of size, but it's the weight that I have no idea of, and the weight is the important part of whether or not it's a worthwhile venture as that's how they're sold. About 1000 baht a tonne at present I understand. As for location, in Yasothon, kind of between Amnat Charoen and Nikom Kam Soi. And no, the land isn't too wet.

Thanks for the help anyway.

Green Eucalyptus varies between 580-850 kg per cub metre,dependant on species and area grown in.

[rychrde]

perhaps this will help, courtesy of my farming in-laws. their own calculations are that they plant 260 trees per rai of land and in 3 years this comes to about 170 tonnes, and after 5 years about 250 tonnes. This is based on K7 - does anybody know which Eucalyptus species this is? Indeed a list of common Thai names and latin names? Having looked at some fields it looks to me like the rows are spaced about 2m apart but within each row the trees can be 1-1.5m apart, depending on how quickly they want the loggers in. Soil here is clay.

rych

[guyshown]

What is the Thai generic name for Eucalyptus trees. Thanks guyshown

[ozzydom]

perhaps this will help, courtesy of my farming in-laws. their own calculations are that they plant 260 trees per rai of land and in 3 years this comes to about 170 tonnes, and after 5 years about 250 tonnes. This is based on K7 - does anybody know which Eucalyptus species this is? Indeed a list of common Thai names and latin names? Having looked at some fields it looks to me like the rows are spaced about 2m apart but within each row the trees can be 1-1.5m apart, depending on how quickly they want the loggers in. Soil here is clay.

rych

Evidentally,K7 is a hybrid clone of e..Camaldulensis (river red gum) and cloned by Eu-Tech Co Ltd

here in Thailand.

Interestingly ,there have been gangs of villagers planting the Klong embankments here all weekend. I believe its part of a study being carried out under the " Alleviate Rural Poverty"scheme.

This site will give info. www.trf.or.th/research/abstract_eng.asp

[podgey]

What is the Thai generic name for Eucalyptus trees. Thanks guyshown

'Euca' or eucalyptus pronuced ' eucalyptut' i think.

[ozzydom]

What is the Thai generic name for Eucalyptus trees. Thanks guyshown

She who knows,tells me that it is Eucalyptus.... no Thai name.

Funny that Thais have problems with simple english words but most can pronounce Eucalyptus perfectly ,although some just call them Euca.

[andrisdg]

what u see is greed at work in euca plantations .there are some falacies re euca effects re the enviroment ,but they do lower the water table and even the thai digests on the subject acknowledge that euca plantations were they start to significantly impact the rural area have adverse social consequences on the subsistence or marginal community members .the social effects would also apply to rubber.

eucas are like any crop they have to be looked after ,such as fertilizer and annual weed control for best results .many thais plant and forget .the royal plantation example has done the job properly at 3 metre spacings .greed dictates lower spacings but after 12 to 18 months they have the height but not the food ,sun and space to grow were it counts in the trunk .

weight is money .spindly beer can size trunks after several years are not worth a cracker even if they dont cut then in 3 years but 5 .properly spaced at 3 metres using genetical superior candalumaues stock one can expect after 5/6 years a 250 kg crop per tree planted at 167 per ria .

almost all the local euca saplings sold are out of the back paddock local seed which unless lucky is inferior stock and that could reduce the yield even at 3 metre spacings substantially .

but more importantly candalumaues is a coppice crop ,that meams that when u harvest it by chopping of at the ankle ,best at 150 cm or less to the ground ,it regrows like a weed with maybe 6 or whatever new potential trunks for harvesting in 5 years time .so at 3 m spacings it can grow and produce approx the same amount of bio mass as at 1st harvest . at 1 metre spacings the trees will strangle themselves and produce not trunks but twigs in future rotations

the international market for wood chips is curently on the up and eucas have the advantage that once established a little time and money each year will do the trick or just forget and accept the reduced growth and return .or depending on need u can raise cash after 3 years or grow for optimun bio mass at 5 to 7 years . and unlike rubber if the price is wrong ,wait a year to sell

there is no money in the 1st 3 years ,the real money is in 5,6,7 .take pigs as an example using falange criteria ,60 kgs liveweight at 16 weeks ,120 kgs l/w at 20 to 21 weeks with genetically superior stock with as close as possible optimun husbandry and double the return per kg of meat

[Roadman]

Maahuanao

I have worked all my adult life to date (35 years) in the corporate forestry bussiness of growing and harvesting pine, fir and Euc plantation forests on a large scale here in NZ.

My interest in Euc plantations has expanded into Thailand with my wife planting family land this year.

Can you grow a Euc. plantation in Thailand to achieve a one ton tree in 7 years? Not a hope in hel_l and the figures expressed to date in this topic are also grossly wide of the mark, especially using the regimes that are employed in Thailand. If I was living full time in Thailand I think I could obtain that mark in about 12 years using a NZ pulp thinning to achieve sawlogs regime. But then the huge question is what the hel_l would I do with a 1 ton Euc tree in Thailand. And unless you have actual proof of some one buying this size Euc material for more than one purcahse then this size Euc tree in Thailand is as about useful as a condom to a nun.

I will explain. And I will point out that this is what I have observed to date in Thailand using applied knowledge and experience from here in NZ.

Thailand Euc regimes from what I see are based on Height * heavy stocking = managable maximium tonnage.

NZ Euc regimes are based on Height * diameter = maximium tonnage. Diameter is where you get your tonnage and this is by applying silvicultural regimes and in the case of Thailand you stick to the heavy original stocking to get the height established early and then thin out about every 2nd smallest tree at about age 3 then again at about age 5 or 6. You will then get huge tonnage quickly.

The difference here is that the thai regime is designed to utilise a very cheap labour resource that manually harvests the plantations. Hence trees are grown for small piece size that the whole system can handle. That system also includes the debarking heads and chippers in the mills - these will not be designed to handle large logs if the processing plant are traditionally growing in their own forests a 5 year pulp regime for small diameter logs. If you are growing for pulp then go to the mill closest to your area and access what regimes they are currently growing in their own forests. Also check out the species that they process. Euc proccessing for quality paper, as with most other manufactured quality wood products (partical board, MDF board etc.) does not allow for the total mixing of species even if they are all for example from the ash family. Chemists will sometimes give their company a mix that may allow for a small percentage of other species type if the properties are reasonably identical.

And forget about asking government forestry organisations anywhere in the world for advice on tree types to grow commerically - that is the quickest way to get something that is of no bloody use to you. Go to the corporate mills that are in your area as the regime and species they are growing in their own forests will dictate what you are going to grow and are able to sell.

OK - so you are going to grow for sawlogs. Again heed what I said above - unless you have fool proof evidence (difficult in Thailand) that there is a long standing buyer over a period of time for this material in Thailand then do not even go there. The NZ Forest Service (the best in the world in its day) set a 10% planting of its total forest area into Euc's back in the 70 and 80's before we were privatised. This was based on Euc growth rates in out maritime climates that were better than in Aussie. In Thailand the bugga's grow even faster than here. And that very fast growth is the problem when it comes to sawing - the over fast growth of Euc. species results in cell collaspe and board warp. We brought Aussies sawmillers here by the dozens to take loads of many varies and species of Euc's through the sawing and drying process and still could not get a satisfactory result. Result being that 10's of thousands of hectares of majestic Euc sawlogs plantation ending up in chip mills.

So what tonnage can you expect to gain from a 5 year old Euc. pulp regime in Thailand? The SCG plants in Isaan grow one Euc species only in their forests, have been doing it for years and have the R and D to get the best results - and that is for them 22 ton/rai in there best sites using their best genetic clone the H4. The species I am not sure of in falang but in thai is pronounced "Saipun" or very similar.

Edited June 2, 2008 by Roadman

[ozzydom]

A good post Roadman, some support at last. It sounds like NZ is very much like my home state of Tasmania in regards forestry practices,Although your knowledge is more up to date since I am many years out of the industry.

I have many times advocated on this forum the practice of thinning to achieve higher income per rai, but it seems that they cant resist clear-felling at any age or size tree here.

I am not sure what size chippers they employ at the mills here in Los,but it is usually only the export chippers that have them with a capacity for a 1 ton log in Oz, as they are still harvesting old growth forests.

I doubt that the mills here would use splitters (other than manual )because of the small timber involved.

You would have got a giggle out of a crew harvesting 4 year old euca on 4 rai recently, they used whipper-snippers with 10" circular saw blades to fall with.

[somo]

Thank you roadman.

At last some solid info on eucalyptus yield. Like maahuanao I have been toying

with growing eucalyptus but struggled to find out what sort of realistic returns could be made.

I think for a lot of potential farmers it is a choice between eucalyptus and cassava and what

strikes me is that your figures show that 1 rai of land will yield about a 4 tons/year (average)

of wood which is also what most people seem to get cultivating cassava. This seems to be logical

as there is only so much you can get out of the ground in a year whatever you grow.

Cassava is selling for over double the price of eucalyptus/ton but against that you have to weigh

the annual cost of planting, caring for it and harvesting.

I have just planted 12 rai with cassava using local labour and with the prices for harvesting (I am

assuming you sub out all the work) estimate the annual cost of growing cassava to be about

3,500 baht/rai. This includes fertilizer and weed killer.

The returns in the end are much the same but I just feel the risks are less with cassava and the

above doesn't account of the cost of ripping out the tree roots after 10 years which could

be large. I have just been quoted 80,000 baht for a macro to clear 17 rai of land.

[maahuanao]

Maahuanao

Thanks for that. Good info. Not quite the yield I'd been led to believe, but at least now I know!

[maahuanao]

Thank you roadman.

At last some solid info on eucalyptus yield. Like maahuanao I have been toying

with growing eucalyptus but struggled to find out what sort of realistic returns could be made.

I think I might be tempted to look at cassava if I was intending to be around all the time, but don't want to be tied to Isaan all year round really.

[guyshown]

Thanks for the responses so far but i am sure it has a name in thia or a aka name- something kaa?? This is driving me crazy . does anyone have pictures of the red river gum hybrid in Thailand?

thank you again

TonYG

[Robroy]

Yes, hundreds of different gum tree species, from desert to lush tropical.

You need to search ones suitable for your soil & climate.

If not enough info on the web, the classic book on native Australian trees is by Vincent Serventy - he gives a page or two to each.

Gums seem to be prolific in Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and Burma. However remember eucaplypts are a pest tree in some places (e.g. much of India, from memory) because their roots go down too far and dry up the water table - thus killing other plants.

[guyshown]

I found out it is yuuk kaa thanks guys. It was driving me crazy

[andrisdg]

i take my hat of to the cold climate foresters ,experience is valuable and i need a mentor in my forestry endevours .

pigs i can do in a cool climate relatively speaking like victoria freezing winters ,bioling summers ,but there is no way that experience is totally transferable to growing pigs in nth q/land or issan .any way pigs are 356 days a year job and a pain . the margins are slim at best even for the top 10% of producers .

in victoria/tassie/wa and i presume nz the tree of choice is tassie blue gum and in my view the private sector managed investment forestry schemes are accountant driven due to land aquisition costs and the planting spacings are to close .the old state based forestry departments grew trees and money was not the prime consideration .trees had value as trees not commerce

the thai forestry people are advising in digests on the web 2.4x2.4 m as a miminum ,3x3 for the brave ,if one is trying to achieve something like optimum . there seeds are sold in bkk and are mixed and not really selected but are better than the village back yard option . what i am saying is forestry experience is invaluable but that knowledge has to be aDAPTED AND MODIFIED FOR THE TROPICS .its a different ball game from growing blue gum plantations based on mechanisation

i like the economics of trees at 3x 3 metre spacings for pulp wood .growth rates are important and using imported seed after 18 months a small %age are 15/16 metres but the average is more like 6 to 12 and on another plot after 12 months the average is 6 to 9 .its very variable depending on soil and water avaliability and getting the missus to understand this is not trad issan farming practise . as a non forester i have to write a new issan forestry rule book and what i sow now as seed and plant as sapling i will be stuck with thru 3 coppice rotations of 5 to 7 years each ,at which stage i will take advise as to ripping out the roots or going for a 4th

i am a tree convert who was a frustrated tree hugger when i was doing pigs ,from a business sense it makes good sense on paper in terms of good returns to do trees in thailand if done properly and the personal ,family and village politics is contained to the odd mice having a nibble and not a herd of chang clearing the trees overnight a year before there due to harvest for optimum return .but that is a business risk as is life's journey

[soundman]

Went down to the local pulp mill yesterday & .......

You don't just buy any old eucalypt & hope for the best.

You tell the mill where you are located (distict), what you are planting into (raised, flood plain, ex rice paddy etc.) and they will recomend which hybrid of eucalypt for your property. If you are planning a fairly large plantation, say over 100 rai, they will send a specialist to your property free of charge to assess the conditions, and help plan for the best planting & fertilising regimen.

For where I live the mill was recomending K7 & K62 variants.

The mill also has "guaranteed" minimum buyback if you can deliver exact specified hybrid without mixture of other woods.

K7 - Guaranteed minimum 1250B / ton.

K62 - Guaranteed minimum 1450B / ton.

Another local observation I have made is that many of the large companies that have boilers for one reason or another, are switching to "BioMass" biolers from the oil squirters.

Bunker fuel heating oil is now around 30,000B per ton whereas wood chips and rice husk around 1000 - 1500B per ton.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[sokmeister]

Hello All!

I'm new here. This will be my 3rd post, the first was just introducing myself in the new topic forum. I'm jumping in here because I have 50 hectres in cambodia north of Batambang and slightly south of Aranya....

The land has never been used before....and it is now in the 4th day of ploughing. My oldest brother lives in Batambang and has euca plantation on 13 hectres. I don't know what species his is, but according to him its an inferior type for the area/soil/land.

For my 50 hectres, he says will get from supplier in thailand, after 3-4 years, is initial harvest...then the second batch will spring from the first root and possible of multiple trunks. He mention that whomever supply him with the sapplings will come check the ecua out after so many years to verify all is good for them.

After reading this thread, his words resembles what you guys has been discussing. maybe just for quick turn around for biomass.

someone mentioned its been known that company sends out people to assist in determining the best stock to use for various land if plantation is of 100 rai or more.

i have 50 hectres(6.25 rai/hectre) = approx 312 rai.

can someone help me with contact info or who i can get with in this area....? oh, we will also be building water storag man-made lakes nor and south of the property....and let the yearly rainfall fill it...hopefully anyways?

Please help...if anything just to learn more so as to understand this whole side business. My brother doesn't speak english, and I can speak cambodian..but understand just up to basic coversation level.

Thanks,

Sok