Classifiers

[rgs2001uk]

my head is on upside down today, guidance required.

whilst there are classifiers for concrete nouns, how do i say in thai, the noun ( car, computer ,whatever) has three problems, or something like, my wife went to the hospital yesterday because she had two problems. no need to tell me how to say in thai, yesterday my wife went to the hospital, i know that already, its just how to classify a finite number of problems.

thanks rgs.

[learnthaipodcast]

You use the classifier "reung"

ปัีญหา 2 เรื่อง / ban-ha song reung / problem 2 classifier

this means two problems

[meadish_sweetball]

For abstract matters, when in doubt as to the classifier, you can often use อย่าง yàang. That is what I would have said instinctively in this case.

[rgs2001uk]

learnthaipodcast and meadish sweetball, thanks for the replies.

ms, the problem was it was an obscure classifier, not quite up to your standard yet, but working on it.

thanks again for the replies. rgs

[Virin]

Another classifier of ปัญหา is ข้อ (khor)

[Tod Daniels]

Thai-Language-dot-com lists the 226 classifiers currently on their site at this link;

http://www.thai-language.com/default.aspx?ref=classifiers

I am sure a more comprehensive list can be found but never the less it is a BIG list already.

I found it of interest to note when I had several thai friends look at the link with me, there were many they didn't know or could only vaguely remember having learned as children but never used in speaking. They said when they didn't know what the classifier was, they used the fall backs อัน (an), ใบ (bai) and อย่าง (yaang).

In perusing the list it is fairly easy to spot the recent additions of english words which were 'adopted' into the language due to the influx of modern technology and the need to describe multiple units.

(edited for a pesky spelling error)

Edited June 9, 2008 by tod-daniels

[DavidHouston]

The use of classifiers is one of the most interesting parts of the Thai language. Apparently, however, the use of classifiers is not a unique feature of Thai. Kumchai Thonglaw in his "Principles of the Thai Language" notes, "ในภาษาจีนซึ่งเป็นภาษาคำโดดเช่นเดียวกับภาษาไทยก็มีลักษณนามใช้เช่นเดียวกัน" ("Chinese, which is a [mono]syllabic language like Thai, also uses classifiers.")

Thai bookstores carry several books to help Thai students and interested readers understand the correct classifiers to use with various nouns. The one I have is a slim 25 baht volume named, "การใช้คำลักษณนามและคำราชาศัพท์" ("The Use of Classifiers and Royal Words") by Dr. Yinglak Ngamdee, first printing 2542 (1999). (BTW, the author's first name is spelled "ยิ่งลักษณ์" which might be interpreted as "more classifiers"; one wonders whether this is a penname or whether "her name is her fortune") The book is in dictionary format and seems to be aimed a elementary school students.

Some classifiers are necessary both in English and in Thai. For example, "thread" can be either a "skein" (for a single length) or a "spool" for thread wound on a spool. Dr. Yinglak's book shows four possible classifiers for "ด้าย" ("thread"): เส้น (a "line"), กลุ่ม (a "group"), เข็ด (a "skein", from Domnern Sathienpong), ไจ ("skein of yarn/thread; hank" from Lexitron), หลอด ("tube" Lexitron shows "spool [N] ; แกนม้วนสาย (เช่น หลอดด้าย . . .) "a form for winding string (for example, a spool of thread . . .)" ). Before looking this up, I only knew two of these.

The classifier for ไข่ "egg", according to Dr. Yinglak, are ฟอง ลูก; Lexitron shows "ฟอง, ใบ, ลูก" as the classifiers. The Royal Institute dictionary shows, "ลักษณนามเรียก ฟอง ลูก หรือ ใบ". In regular conversation, I very rarely hear the word ฟอง being used. I would like to hear whether others in this forum do hear ฟอง used on a regular basis. Are different classifiers used for eggs purchased in a package in a supermarket and cooked eggs ordered for breakfast, for example?

Finally, I hear the word หน่วย (Lexitron "[CLAS] unit") used very often here in Phuket as the universal or default classifier, like "อัน". According to the RID the word means "หน่วย [หฺน่วย] น. ตัวเลขหลังสุดของเลขจํานวนเต็มที่เรียงกันเรียกว่า เลขหลัก หน่วย เช่น ๑๔๓ เลข ๓ เป็นเลขหลักหน่วย; จํานวนหรือหมู่ที่นับเป็น หนึ่ง" ("the last digit in a multi-digit number is called the base number or หน่วย (unit), for example, in the number 143, the digit 3 is the base digit; an amount or group which is counted as one item.") However, I do not see the formal definition include its use as a classifier. Does anyone else hear the word used in common parliance? Thank you, tod-daniels and others, for raising this interesting area of Thai language.

Edited June 10, 2008 by DavidHouston

[mangkorn]

For the record, English uses classifiers too, albeit not so widespread as Thai.

A piece of cake. Two sheets of paper. A clump of dirt. Three bottles of beer. A glass of milk.

Etcetera.

[DavidHouston]

For the record, English uses classifiers too, albeit not so widespread as Thai.

A piece of cake. Two sheets of paper. A clump of dirt. Three bottles of beer. A glass of milk.

Etcetera.

It's the "countable"/"uncountable" syndrome. Uncountable English nouns, e.g., dirt, paper, cake, beer, milk, all require classifiers when counting or its equivalent is required.

[Virin]

"การใช้คำลักษณนามและคำราชาศัพท์" ("The Use of Classifiers and Royal Words") by Dr. Yinglak Ngamdee, first printing 2542 (1999). (BTW, the author's first name is spelled "ยิ่งลักษณ์" which might be interpreted as "more classifiers"; one wonders whether this is a penname or whether "her name is her fortune")

Dr.Yinglak Ngamdee or ดร. ยิ่งลักษณ์ งามดี is the real name.

ยิ่งลักษณ์ means "excellent character", it's a common name for female.

[mangkorn]

For the record, English uses classifiers too, albeit not so widespread as Thai.

A piece of cake. Two sheets of paper. A clump of dirt. Three bottles of beer. A glass of milk.

Etcetera.

It's the "countable"/"uncountable" syndrome. Uncountable English nouns, e.g., dirt, paper, cake, beer, milk, all require classifiers when counting or its equivalent is required.

Right, but in English, as ever, the rules get washed away sometimes. Nowadays, people say: "two beers," or even "two milks" (ghastly, I know, but it is what it is). At least, so far, you can't say "two papers."

[Jeddah Jo]

Right, but in English, as ever, the rules get washed away sometimes. Nowadays, people say: "two beers," or even "two milks" (ghastly, I know, but it is what it is). At least, so far, you can't say "two papers."

I bet you could in a newsagent

Edited June 15, 2008 by Jeddah Jo

[AjarnP]

The use of classifiers is one of the most interesting parts of the Thai language. Apparently, however, the use of classifiers is not a unique feature of Thai. Kumchai Thonglaw in his "Principles of the Thai Language" notes, "ในภาษาจีนซึ่งเป็นภาษาคำโดดเช่นเดียวกับภาษาไทยก็มีลักษณนามใช้เช่นเดียวกัน" ("Chinese, which is a [mono]syllabic language like Thai, also uses classifiers.")

Thai bookstores carry several books to help Thai students and interested readers understand the correct classifiers to use with various nouns. The one I have is a slim 25 baht volume named, "การใช้คำลักษณนามและคำราชาศัพท์" ("The Use of Classifiers and Royal Words") by Dr. Yinglak Ngamdee, first printing 2542 (1999). (BTW, the author's first name is spelled "ยิ่งลักษณ์" which might be interpreted as "more classifiers"; one wonders whether this is a penname or whether "her name is her fortune") The book is in dictionary format and seems to be aimed a elementary school students.

Some classifiers are necessary both in English and in Thai. For example, "thread" can be either a "skein" (for a single length) or a "spool" for thread wound on a spool. Dr. Yinglak's book shows four possible classifiers for "ด้าย" ("thread"): เส้น (a "line"), กลุ่ม (a "group"), เข็ด (a "skein", from Domnern Sathienpong), ไจ ("skein of yarn/thread; hank" from Lexitron), หลอด ("tube" Lexitron shows "spool [N] ; แกนม้วนสาย (เช่น หลอดด้าย . . .) "a form for winding string (for example, a spool of thread . . .)" ). Before looking this up, I only knew two of these.

The classifier for ไข่ "egg", according to Dr. Yinglak, are ฟอง ลูก; Lexitron shows "ฟอง, ใบ, ลูก" as the classifiers. The Royal Institute dictionary shows, "ลักษณนามเรียก ฟอง ลูก หรือ ใบ". In regular conversation, I very rarely hear the word ฟอง being used. I would like to hear whether others in this forum do hear ฟอง used on a regular basis. Are different classifiers used for eggs purchased in a package in a supermarket and cooked eggs ordered for breakfast, for example?

Finally, I hear the word หน่วย (Lexitron "[CLAS] unit") used very often here in Phuket as the universal or default classifier, like "อัน". According to the RID the word means "หน่วย [หฺน่วย] น. ตัวเลขหลังสุดของเลขจํานวนเต็มที่เรียงกันเรียกว่า เลขหลัก หน่วย เช่น ๑๔๓ เลข ๓ เป็นเลขหลักหน่วย; จํานวนหรือหมู่ที่นับเป็น หนึ่ง" ("the last digit in a multi-digit number is called the base number or หน่วย (unit), for example, in the number 143, the digit 3 is the base digit; an amount or group which is counted as one item.") However, I do not see the formal definition include its use as a classifier. Does anyone else hear the word used in common parliance? Thank you, tod-daniels and others, for raising this interesting area of Thai language.

Hi David, long time no read your very informative posts.

I was recently quite taken aback on the subject of classifiers myself. For thirty years I have been calling elephants by the classifier ตัว i.e. ช้างสามตัว. In my home just a coupleof months ago it was corrected to ช้างสามเชือก.

I am wondering though if this is just a lanna-ism or the general classifier is correct throughout the land.

It would be good for a thread if all were to post some unusal ones for us all to learn including the colloquial versions too.

AjarnP

Edited June 17, 2008 by AjarnP

[DavidHouston]

Actually, there is another classifier for elephant, "โขลง". The RID says, "โขลง ๑ [โขฺลง] น. ฝูง (ใช้เฉพาะช้าง)." "โขลง means a herd of (specifically for elephants)". The word for "herd" is usually "ฝูง" as the RID notes; but, elephants have their own classifier.

The 1944 edition of the George Bradley McFarland, M.D. "Thai-English Dictionary", Stanford University Press, notes that the phrase, "โขลงช้าง" denotes "a heard of tame elephants". Can any one tell us what the Thai term is for a herd of wild elephants (ช้างเถื่อน)?

It would be interesting to know the origin of that word and whether it is indeed of Lanna origin. Anyone have an idea?

Another meaning of the word "" is "โขลง ๒ [โขฺลง] ว. มีกลิ่นเหม็นอย่างเนื้อเน่าที่ค้างหลายวัน" (a very bad smell as from meat which has been rotting for many days). One can only wonder as to whether the two definitions are in any way related.

[CSS]

Hi David, long time no read your very informative posts.

I was recently quite taken aback on the subject of classifiers myself. For thirty years I have been calling elephants by the classifier ตัว i.e. ช้างสามตัว. In my home just a coupleof months ago it was corrected to ช้างสามเชือก.

I am wondering though if this is just a lanna-ism or the general classifier is correct throughout the land.

It would be good for a thread if all were to post some unusal ones for us all to learn including the colloquial versions too.

AjarnP

เชือก is the standard classifier for individual elephants and not just a lanna-ism. Thanks for the classifier for a herd of elephants David.

[Tod Daniels]

Interestingly enough; there were three elephants 'parked' at the 7/11 near my house the other nite while their handlers were inside. I heard the word เชือก used in their description as well.

On the thai-language dot com site they list เชือก as the numerical classifier for domesticated elephants. Could this be because after they are domesticated they're 'roped' or fastened?

Is there another classifier for individual wild elephants other than as a herd?

[yoot]

Classifier for individual tame elephant is เชือก, but for wild elephant, it's ตัว.

[Neeranam]

Classifier for individual tame elephant is เชือก, but for wild elephant, it's ตัว.

I never knew they were different, thanks K.Yoot.

I'm looking for a Thai person to agree with me that 'roti' should use the classifier, "muan"

[CSS]

Classifier for individual tame elephant is เชือก, but for wild elephant, it's ตัว.

Interesting.

I have another question that came up today. What's the classifier for เครือข่าย, as in a network of people. Is it simply เครือข่าย? (เครือข่ายสองเครือข่าย) That's what I went with. From the thai-language.com classifier list the only ones I saw that seemed to fit loosely were กลุ่ม or พวก but I still don't think either are right.

[yoot]

CSS, Classifier for เครือข่าย is simply เครือข่าย as you understood.

Neeranam,

I can't agree with you that the classifier for 'roti' should be 'muan'.

If it's in piece not rolled, the classifier is แผ่น.

But if it's rolled, then it should be อัน or แท่ง. I never heard anyone use ม้วน. ม้วน should be a verb for rolling it.

[riga]

I never heard anyone use ม้วน. ม้วน should be a verb for rolling it.

Maybe he was refering to

มวน muaanM[numerical classifier for cigarettes and other rolled items]

That said, I don't think it is used as a classifier for โรตี and the classifier suggested by yoot are probably the most used. Maybe also ชิ้น chin is a classifier that can be used in this case

[thithi]

CSS, Classifier for เครือข่าย is simply เครือข่าย as you understood.

Neeranam,

I can't agree with you that the classifier for 'roti' should be 'muan'.

If it's in piece not rolled, the classifier is แผ่น.

But if it's rolled, then it should be อัน or แท่ง. I never heard anyone use ม้วน. ม้วน should be a verb for rolling it.

i do heard some using ม้วน ex. กระดาษทิชชู่หนึ่งม้วน [a rolled tissue paper] but for Roti .. i think it's แผ่น

Edited June 19, 2008 by thithi

[DavidHouston]

The ultimate source for classifiers is on the Royal Institute website at

http://www.royin.go.th/th/profile/index.ph...;SystemMenuIDS=

I see that there are 22 Internet pages in total. This list may not be the most accessible but it is authoritative.

Here are the entries for ช้าง , for example:

ช้าง (ช้างขึ้นระวาง) ช้าง ช้าง (ช้างบ้าน) เชือก ช้าง (ช้างป่า) ตัว

Look at the first entry with the term "ขึ้นระวาง". Interestingly, it is clearly explained by Lexitron:

ขึ้นระวาง [V] be enrolled

Def. เข้าทำเนียบ, เข้าประจำการ, (ใช้แก่พาหนะของหลวง คือ ม้า ช้าง และเรือ).

"to be registered, to be placed in active service, (used for official vehicles [or transport] such as horses, elephants and boats.)"

Sample:ม้าที่คัดแล้วจะต้องขึ้นระวางต่อหน่วยงานที่สังกัด

"Horses which have been selected must be enrolled with the organization to which they are assigned."

I would be happy for anyone to correct my attempt at translation. Thanks; we learn something new everyday.

Edited June 25, 2008 by DavidHouston

[riga]

To be the most authoritative institute for the Thai language the Royal Institute has probably the worst server I've ever seen

[Virin]

The ultimate source for classifiers is on the Royal Institute website at

http://www.royin.go.th/th/profile/index.ph...;SystemMenuIDS=

I see that there are 22 Internet pages in total. This list may not be the most accessible but it is authoritative.

Here are the entries for ช้าง , for example:

ช้าง (ช้างขึ้นระวาง) ช้าง ช้าง (ช้างบ้าน) เชือก ช้าง (ช้างป่า) ตัว

Look at the first entry with the term "ขึ้นระวาง". Interestingly, it is clearly explained by Lexitron:

ขึ้นระวาง [V] be enrolled

Def. เข้าทำเนียบ, เข้าประจำการ, (ใช้แก่พาหนะของหลวง คือ ม้า ช้าง และเรือ).

"to be registered, to be placed in active service, (used for official vehicles [or transport] such as horses, elephants and boats.)"

Sample:ม้าที่คัดแล้วจะต้องขึ้นระวางต่อหน่วยงานที่สังกัด

"Horses which have been selected must be enrolled with the organization to which they are assigned."

I would be happy for anyone to correct my attempt at translation. Thanks; we learn something new everyday.

David, you're right, ขึ้นระวาง = enrolled for service

There is a joke from husband "เมียผมแก่แล้ว ได้เวลาปลดระวาง" - my wife is old, time to release from service.

[thithi]

To be the most authoritative institute for the Thai language the Royal Institute has probably the worst server I've ever seen

it's not the worst neither the best.

[bmore99]

I've been told that next edition of the Paiboon dictionary (mid 2009) each noun will have a reference to its corresponding classifier(s).

Hope it's true though, not just another look-it-up-yourself list