Volunteer Opportunity

[Maejo Man]

I wonder if it would be appropriate to move this tread to the Visa subforum, now. It would be interesting to hear what the visa/WP experts (Sunbelt and others) might have to say.

Perhaps Sunbelt might like to comment on the matter??

[sriracha john]

Can others wishing to do volunteer work apply to CM Immigration Office for the "special permission" ?

Why would you think that? It appears as if you need some kind of organised group with the endorsement of the Mayor and co-operation from someone in CM Immigration. Maybe if you put something together that qualified then the same deal would be available (not withstanding the question mark that still hangs over the ultimate validity of their waiver arrangement, of course).

Has there been some special realignment of governmental department authority and ministerial cognizance in Chiang Mai whereby Immigration now has authority to issue and/or circumvent work permits? Does one now go to the Labour Ministry for visa extensions?

[PeaceBlondie]

I will try not to comment further until I have met with Khun Boong, in a few days. But the more I think of it, they - Thais in positions of authority - prefer to do things orally, without recordings or minutes of the meeting. Puu-yai says blah blah, and that becomes the law. Until Puu-more-yai says something different. It is not likely to be seen in print, let alone gazzetted as a literal law. That explains the reluctances of my Directors (God-like) at leading Northern Thai schools, who hated to sign contracts.

[richard10365]

You guys act like this was a hasty unplanned program. There has been a lot of work put into this and a lot of agencies involved. I'm sure if other people wanted an exemption to their special program and they put in the same amount of time and effort that Khun Boong put into it then chances are your program would get the exemption as well.

We should be aplauding Khun Boongs efforts to work within the established system to something like this approved instead of tearing it down like so many are doing in this thread. Already people are commenting on how they have changed their minds in joining a program to help the less fortunate just because of the negative comments of some of the Thaivisa members.

As much problems as some of the members have getting things done in Thailand, when someone finally does try to do something for foreigners in Thailand it is immediately rejected and termed illegal.

I am starting to understand why the Thai government does not give as much help to foreigners as some of you think you should get. You deserve your frustrations.

[Rasseru]

I will try not to comment further until I have met with Khun Boong, in a few days.

Best of luck.

[sylviex]

Already people are commenting on how they have changed their minds in joining a program to help the less fortunate just because of the negative comments of some of the Thaivisa members.

I think the principal reason people may be reluctant to take part is their desire not to knowingly break the law here.

I also have very strong reservations about a program sending untrained volunteers to teach children, amongst other concerns. I don't think restrictions should be waived too easily where children are concerned.

Edited June 10, 2008 by sylviex

[sylviex]

But the more I think of it, they - Thais in positions of authority - prefer to do things orally, without recordings or minutes of the meeting. Puu-yai says blah blah, and that becomes the law. Until Puu-more-yai says something different. It is not likely to be seen in print, let alone gazzetted as a literal law. That explains the reluctances of my Directors (God-like) at leading Northern Thai schools, who hated to sign contracts.

An accurate enough description, I think.

Once the current power group/s lose their influence, their "laws" go, too.

Either way, the written law remains as it is, and I'd like to be on the right side of it.

By the way, according to one of the articles in CM Mail, there's quite a power struggle in progress amongst the municipal officers right now.

Edited June 10, 2008 by sylviex

[Mapguy]

Saw an article in Tuesday's Chaing Mai Mail that might be of interest since I know the topic of volunteering comes up from time to time. This is a cross-cultural education project sponsored by the Chiang Mai Friends' group and supported by Chiang Mai municipality. Volunteers will spend a minimum of two hours a week with students 11-12 years old, assisting them with English conversation. Volunteers need either an ESL qualification or be recommended by the board of the Chiang Mai Friends' group.

Here's the good thing...special permission is being given by the Chiang Mai Municipality to enable volunteer teachers to work without the usual requirements of a work permit.

Contact person is Khun Boong

Above is the original post. It was soon followed with more detail provided by Nienke about the program. Want to find out more? Simple enough, as some have pointed out.

The discussion that has followed the early posts is truly astonishing. There certainly have been some constructive comments, but they tend to get lost in a fuzzy atmosphere of gratuitous guesswork, even demands that Chiang Mai Friends somehow answer for itself publicly on ThaiVisa from "experts" on labor and immigration law in Thailand who haven't yet themselves provided anything more than speculation, rumor, second-hand experience (which may or may not be relevant), or specific references to regulations or law! I have also learned that the discussion has even produced some "hate email" for Khun Boong.

I am not one to call the group completely altruistic. Some of the "leaders" make their living providing business and professional services to expats and being a "bridge" somehow to the local community. Or, perhaps there is more informal personal self-promotion in play. But that's not the whole story, or the major story, in my view. Here is an effort to provide genuine opportunities for expats living here to participate in a helpful and constuctive way at the invitation of the mayor. She is quite different and remarkable in her concern, effort, and openness to making this city a better place to live. How many other politicians in Thailand can you name that have been so welcoming to expatriates to become involved in useful ways?

Will this English language instruction project succeed? I am not at all certain that it will succeed, especially if there are not enough thoughtful and flexible native English speakers with some teaching experience involved. The project still needs volunteers. Contact Khum Boong. There is an application process requiring identification. You can not just show up.

Are there some valid questions regarding work permits? Sure. But the discussion of that here has really not been useful. So, raise your hand, show up, and get an answer.

[sriracha john]

Are there some valid questions regarding work permits? Sure. But the discussion of that here has really not been useful. So, raise your hand, show up, and get an answer.

I've repeatedly raised my hand and the asked the question regarding work permits and it has never been answered.

If this has caused concern enough that potential volunteers have turned away from the project, then that inability to provide a quick and direct answer to this simple request might be the reason.

My main concern is the dissemination of accurate and factual information and, as such, no proof of legality has been provided, I feel the prudent choice for any other potential volunteers is to similarly hold off for now.

Until such time as it has been definitively shown to the forum, from which volunteers are being solicited, that the project meets all the laws and requirements of this nation, the only sensible choice is to wait for the cart to be placed AFTER the horse.

Edited June 10, 2008 by sriracha john

[Mapguy]

Are there some valid questions regarding work permits? Sure. But the discussion of that here has really not been useful. So, raise your hand, show up, and get an answer.

I've repeatedly raised my hand and the asked the question regarding work permits and it has never been answered.

If this has caused concern enough that potential volunteers have turned away from the project, then that inability to provide a quick and direct answer to this simple request might be the reason.

My main concern is the dissemination of accurate and factual information and, as such, no proof of legality has been provided, I feel the prudent choice for any other potential volunteers is to similarly hold off for now.

Until such time as it has been definitively shown to the forum, from which volunteers are being solicited, that the project meets all the laws and requirements of this nation, the only sensible choice is to wait for the cart to be placed AFTER the horse.

Apologies. I agree. No definitive answers on this forum on legal points. I meant raise your hand to volunteer, check in with Khun Boong and the Mayor's Office. Whatever is provided can be checked out with the appropriate authority be it the labor or immigration offices. I don't promise that that will be simple, so I do agree with you that the Mayor's Office should be specific.

Recently (It might have since been changed), the application form read like this:

6. I verify that, to my knowledge, this assignment does not conflict legal restrictions relating to residential status in Thailand.

To me, there are a number of things wrong with this statement not that it would pose any particular problem for anyone to so verify. The statement might be a poor translation from Thai, as well.

[sriracha john]

Thank you for the additional information.

Hmmm.... that is a very curious statement. It would seem an effort to alleviate responsibility for any wrong-doing on the Project organizer's part and put it on the volunteer. How convenient for them...

Still, just to continue to try and clear up any misunderstandings, if PB does return from his meeting with Boong with a copy of a work permit or work permit exemption letter, I'd be the first to encourage all to raise their hands and volunteer.

Edited June 11, 2008 by sriracha john

[Greenside]

Recently (It might have since been changed), the application form read like this:

6. I verify that, to my knowledge, this assignment does not conflict legal restrictions relating to residential status in Thailand.

To me, there are a number of things wrong with this statement not that it would pose any particular problem for anyone to so verify. The statement might be a poor translation from Thai, as well.

I delivered my application form this morning and questioned the above statement. Boong told me that it was a poor translation and that it was meant to mean that one doesn't have a criminal record etc. Just how this bizarre interpretation came about is a mystery, but I struck it out and simply said UK CRO check (which I had to have when teaching in England) was available on request. She seemed happy with that.

I don't think that the holy grail of a WP waiver document exists at this time (so doubt PB will be successful on that count) but hope that there is enough goodwill generated by this project to pursuade the authorities to get something more formal in place that would satisfy the more cautious (More experienced...more cynical.... who knows? ) potential volunteers to take part.

I'm going to observe classes tomorrow.

[barky]

Richard10365, you indicated the Thai government doing something for foreigners. I dont call working for nothing...something.

[sylviex]

Mapguy @ 2008-06-11 12:53:28) Recently (It might have since been changed), the application form read like this:

6. I verify that, to my knowledge, this assignment does not conflict legal restrictions relating to residential status in Thailand. To me, there are a number of things wrong with this statement not that it would pose any particular problem for anyone to so verify. The statement might be a poor translation from Thai, as well.

Wouldn't working illegally be in clear conflict with legal restrictions ?

Greenside :

I delivered my application form this morning and questioned the above statement. Boong told me that it was a poor translation and that it was meant to mean that one doesn't have a criminal record etc. Just how this bizarre interpretation came about is a mystery, but I struck it out and simply said UK CRO check (which I had to have when teaching in England) was available on request. She seemed happy with that .

I am having serious difficulty seeing how one could possibly translate to the other, and I have seen many a bad translation.

Glad to hear Greenside mentioned an ability to provide some documented form of character reference, though. That point needs to get through loud and clear, where children are concerned.

Richard10365, you indicated the Thai government doing something for foreigners. I dont call working for nothing...something.

Esp. not on an illegal basis, "to help the less fortunate" in the municipal offices .

Forgive me, but I think those of us asking questions are not the real cynics here .

Edited June 11, 2008 by sylviex

[Mapguy]

Have done a little research. Perhaps the following url, "Work Permit Application" is useful as a starting point. At least it will keep the solicitor want-to-be's occupied!

http://www.doe.go.th/service3_en.aspx

Note in particular the first paragraph (italicised emphasis is mine) as it might apply to volunteers:

1. Definition

"Alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality; " Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

Question! What tangible benefit will accrue to a volunteer to teach municipal employees or school children as has been proposed ?

Over to you!

[PeaceBlondie]

Have done a little research. Perhaps the following url, "Work Permit Application" is useful as a starting point. At least it will keep the solicitor want-to-be's occupied!

http://www.doe.go.th/service3_en.aspx

Note in particular the first paragraph (italicised emphasis is mine) as it might apply to volunteers:

1. Definition

"Alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality; " Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

Question! What tangible benefit will accrue to a volunteer to teach municipal employees or school children as has been proposed ?

Over to you!

In the amateur opinion of this retired American bureaucrat and English teacher, just two or three points:

1. The English version does not matter, probably only the official Thai version.

2. Because the sentence says "whether or not" the definition would mean (in English) that consideration does not matter, whether in wages or in other benefits. So the question is meaningless. Work is exerting energy or using knowledge, period.

This is nothing new. It has probably been the definition of work for labor purposes (relating to aliens) for decades. What about waivers? Who are the approving authorities for work permits or waivers, other than Labour Ministry officers?

///added later, after reading the URL: I doubt that is even a straight translation of official law. Looks more like a friendly notice to aliens, complete with chilling threats of huge fines and long jail terms.

[tipsy]

Check out my thread titled 'Another Volunteer Invite' maybe you guys can find the answers with the information there so Khun Boong gets a break from it and maybe you will get a more informative answer.

[sriracha john]

Check out my thread titled 'Another Volunteer Invite' maybe you guys can find the answers with the information there so Khun Boong gets a break from it and maybe you will get a more informative answer.

duly notated...

This time its 'Red Bull' An article within the Chiang Mai City Life Invites us to volunteer our help with the special olympics on the 13th of June at Chiang Mai Municipality Stadium.

A quote from the advert:

'Whatever your interests, background or availability, ou can make a difference. All volunteers are given a brief orientation before the event, and most volunteer posistions are easy to learn. No experiance is required.'

No mention of a work permit, the way it is worded you just show up and work.

Maybe if you are interested in finding the answers to the work permit/volunteer this may help.

There is an email address and website... not sure if i can post it here but PM and i'll pass it on.

Maybe this will give the Mayor a break and the answers can be found here

Without the required Work Permit, this would be more factual if it's titled:

Another Volunteer Invite To Work Illegally

Edited June 11, 2008 by sriracha john

[Rasseru]

1. Definition

. . . " Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

In the amateur opinion of this retired American bureaucrat and English teacher . . . ecause the sentence says "whether or not" the definition would mean (in English) that consideration does not matter, whether in wages or in other benefits. . . . . Work is exerting energy or using knowledge, period.

My goodness! So I am not allowed, among other things, to clean my house, wash my dishes or repair my scooter. Most excellent!

[sylviex]

My goodness! So I am not allowed, among other things, to clean my house, wash my dishes or repair my scooter. Most excellent!

However, I can think of quite a number of rather more appealing activities we might need to get Waivers for .

Or should that be Work Permits ?

[Mario2008]

Volunteer work falls under the legal definition of work and you need a workpermit for that. I have been working as a volunteer at government schools for many years and still need a workpermit. The local labour office is very helpful and checked if there was some way they could reduce the cost of the workpermit, but there was no way for that.

[sylviex]

The local labour office is very helpful

Thanks, Mario2008.

Could I ask if you found this opportunity via a volunteer organization of some kind, or as an individual ?

Also, would you like to tell us a little about your experience in the local government schools ?

[Mario2008]

My first school I found it as an individual. Now many schools in my area want a volunteer teacher to help teach English.

The second school I went I asked some foundations if they knew of a school with no money but which could realy need a volunteer teacher, as I don't want to teach as volunteer on a school which has the money to pay for a teacher.

The teaching is nice and I'm used to working with children. The experiences I have with schools vary greatly. Every where they make me welcome and try to take good care of me. But sometimes they don't know how to give you the right support in teaching. Sometimes they presume you are the expert because you know English better than them and let you all do it by your self. So you should always be active in making clear what you can do and what you expect of them. (The Thai teacher in the classroom with you to help you translate and keep order or not, for instance). That isn't different from what one can experience as a paid teacher in Thailand.

A nice thing of being a volunteer is that the local government is always very appreciative of what you do and any problems I can always go directly to the neigh ampur or even the governor. And when I travel and Thai people ask me what i do I often get thanks from the bottom of their hearts.

The nice thing about volunteering is of course that you can get a visa (and workpermit) without having to show an income. But I'm married to a Thai national and have enough family income, so I don't need to volunteer.

[sriracha john]

I just get angry at times that I never see a comment saying 'well done' to these guys and I think they deserve it.

I'll gladly post a well-deserved "well done" to any volunteer that provides a work permit or work permit exemption letter because they persevered where I wasn't able to.

Volunteer work falls under the legal definition of work and you need a workpermit for that. I have been working as a volunteer at government schools for many years and still need a workpermit. The local labour office is very helpful and checked if there was some way they could reduce the cost of the workpermit, but there was no way for that.

As promised:

" Well Done! "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if only, we could only extend that same congratulation to the subjects of this thread...

[sriracha john]

This topic is about both volunteers and work permits. Nobody in their right mind is saying it is immoral or evil to do volunteer work. We applaud the workers and their valuable contributions. We are arguing whether this kind of volunteer work puts their status as an alien at risk. All available evidence shows that doing such work without a WP violates the law of Thailand. I have lots of spare time to donate; I'm qualified, etc. But in a country where the government schools violate Thai law, I am not going to do illegal work for free. I worked for the government for 25K per month. I used to think it was worth 25K per month to stand at the gate in front of the entire community to be an English teacher. No more, if it is illegal.

Teachers teach illegally because they need the money. Why should they risk the heavy hand of the law for nothing?

This was precisely the position I was in myself.

I found myself doing illegal work for no pay. Neither would I do illegal work for pay. When I thought that especially considering that I was jeopardizing my presence here for doing something which I very willingly gave completely freely of myself....the absurdity of the entire situation astounded me beyond belief.

I was richly rewarded for my volunteer efforts well beyond what any monetary return could provide.... and I am troubled that I am now deprived of those specific rewards... but it's the price one has to pay for wishing to be compliant with an agreeably arcane, enigmatic, mysterious, mystical, and puzzling law.

A partial definition of "non-monetary rewards"

A nice thing of being a volunteer is that the local government is always very appreciative of what you do and any problems I can always go directly to the neigh ampur or even the governor.

And when I travel and Thai people ask me what i do I often get thanks from the bottom of their hearts.

I'm jealous of past memories.

[Mario2008]

Thanks for the "well done" Sriracha John.

I agree that one shouldn't do volunteer work without a workpermit, especially for the government. It is mostly that schools look up to the paperwork and don't how to do it. But the school and I have always had good cooperation from the labour office. (Headmaster out of town and can't sign, no problem. Send the document next week. Here is the WP). Immigration is also very helpful and thnaks me for my volunteer work.

People wanting to do volunteer work, just insist on the WP and do it legal. It isn't that difficult to arrange. Let them make the effort!

As for the offer of Chiang Mai. It doesn't sound as it is legitemate. More that the labour office promised not to raid the place to check if everyone has a WP. That makes it safe, but not legit.

[sylviex]

I do echo the congratulations, Mario. Seems you are involved in a very genuine and sincere form of volunteer work.

[PeaceBlondie]

REPORT of PeaceBlondie’s nice, friendly chat with the charming Khun Boong of the Chiang Mai Friends Group and the Cross-Cultural Education Project:

Khun Boong and I had a nice chat for about an hour in her office. She began by ascertaining that I had lived in Thailand five years, and did not speak Thai. She was gracious, expressive, and charming throughout the conversation. No notes were taken. She is trained in communication arts, and prefers face to face verbal conversations, not the internet or emails. I gave her an altered copy of a recent ThaiVisa post, but she offered no paperwork.

The ever-gracious, petite, and beautiful lady admitted that she has no written authorizations from the Labour Ministry for her projects. I am certain that the mayor does not, either. These nice Thai ladies have spoken in Thai to some officials, so they believe that is good enough for them to operate volunteer programs with farang volunteers, without work permits.

Good works and flexibility. That’s what it’s all about, folks. You do the hokey-pokey, you turn yourself about, and that’s what it’s all about, when it’s all said and done, at the end of the day, after the fat lady sings. Good works and flexibility. No work permit? Mai bpen rai. You see, this is about a good work, volunteering.

I mentioned the statistic, attributed to george, that 200 farang per year are deported for working without work permits. Khun Boong replied that some farang workers are very bad, such as those who teach with false documents. I explained that we on ThaiVisa have always been opposed to working with false documents. I reminded her that when that happened in Bangkok a couple of years ago, the false teachers were put into prison for a few months and deported. Meanwhile, the private Thai school that TOLD them to get fake degrees went unpunished.

You will be glad to hear that Khun Boong insists on getting criminal background checks for volunteer applicants, and she has rejected some applicants who did not provide such checks. That is exemplary, beyond what most private and public schools do in the North.

We discussed blind eyes, as when the Thai officers turn a blind eye to illegal activities when they believe the illegal activities are good works. I am a one-eyed old man in this Kingdom, and I do not want to say too much about one-eyed old men here. But as lopburi3 said on the companion thread which is running in the “Thai Visas and work permits forum,:” “There are blind eyes, as with most laws, but when push comes to shove you do not want to be depending on that.”

So the answer is "no" - there is no work permit for this program, no written authorizations from Labour Ministry for waivers or exemptions. According to the nice Thai ladies, it simply does not matter, because it is for good works.

[sriracha john]

Thank you very much, PB, for confirming my suspicions all along.

[HarryHacker]

REPORT of PeaceBlondie’s nice, friendly chat with the charming Khun Boong of the Chiang Mai Friends Group and the Cross-Cultural Education Project:

SNIP

So the answer is "no" - there is no work permit for this program, no written authorizations from Labour Ministry for waivers or exemptions. According to the nice Thai ladies, it simply does not matter, because it is for good works.

So PB, how do you feel about working for this project right now?