What Fuel ?

[Ray1167]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/06Jun2008_news08.php

.... "Conversion kits are in high demand as motorists opt for cheaper natural gas in the face of the spiralling cost of oil-based fuels. Liquid petroleum gas (LPG) kits are the cheapest, but the government is trying to force motorists to switch to compressed natural gas, sold here as natural gas for vehicles (NGV) by the monopoly provider PTT..."

Now that’s interesting , since ( 2 days ago ) PTT announced ( with the Government’s approval ) that they are increasing NGV prices by 40% . So whose best interests are the government acting in then I wonder ?

And what of their sudden rush to develop a nation of bio-fuel ( E85 ) cars? If everyone has done what they've been told , and paid for these NGV conversions , does the government expect them to change fuels and/or cars again so soon ? Directionless as ever , the government continues to amuse...

[dave111223]

Yes, the government really needs to pick a direction, if E85 and E20 come into effect you'll pull up and the gas station and have to pick from:

- Benzine 95

- Benzine 91

- Gasohol 95

- Gasohol 91

- Diesel

- LPG

- NGV

- E85

- E20

I mean...come on! How many different kinds of fuel do we need.

[Cuban]

- Benzine 95

- Benzine 91

- Gasohol 95

- Gasohol 91

- Diesel

- Diesel B5 (with 5% bio derived oil)

- LPG

- NGV

- E85

- E20

[Hog Head]

- Benzine 95

- Benzine 91

- Gasohol 95

- Gasohol 91

- Diesel

- Diesel B5 (with 5% bio derived oil)

- LPG

- NGV

- E85

- E20

The Government has made their position clear that they will make it easier for you by removing the first two options.

I suspect that options 3 and 4 will follow given the recent propaganda that E-10 cars can run on E-20, with option 5 next to be phased out.

Now a short option list, although not everyone can use what is offered.

[Plus]

NGV is the way to go, if you want the cheapest fuel, though converting right now isn't easy and pumps are rare.

In the short to medium term, ie if you are not buying a new car, LPG conversion makes more sense.

New car buyers should clearly opt for E20, there's no question about it - there are cheaper and can run on any available fuel.

Losers are diesel pickup trucks - there aren't any cheap and reliable alternatives to using diesel yet.

[longball53098]

Does anyone have a prediction on what all those fuel choices will cost per litre by the end of this year?

I'm hearing rumblings of 100 baht per litre for benzine if oil goes to $150 a barrel or more

Edited June 8, 2008 by longball53098

[swain]

LPG seems to make sense... converting next week.

[clausewitz]

Now that's interesting , since ( 2 days ago ) PTT announced ( with the Government's approval ) that they are increasing NGV prices by 40% .

Do you have the source for this idea?

[bkkmick]

I was thinking about the LPG conversion too. Does anyone have an example comparison between what it costs to run Benzine 91 (which I have at the moment) and LPG? i.e. is there that much of a saving?

[Thanh-BKK]

Losers are diesel pickup trucks - there aren't any cheap and reliable alternatives to using diesel yet.

Hi

Diesels run perfectly fine on any kind of vegetable oil - soybean, sunflower, palm....... as long as it can be used for cooking, it can be used to run a Diesel.

Any regular 4-stroke "benzene" engine can run on any percentage of ehtanol, right up to E100. Modifications need to be done to seals and hoses in the fuel system to withstand the ethanol which is aggressive towards certain plastics and rubbers. Also the ignition and injection has to be adapted to ethanol, many modern cars do it automatically or have to have a chip reprogrammed/swapped.

I hope that in the future we will see hydrogen-powered cars - hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and combustion with oxygen produces nothing but water as "exhaust". Can't get any cleaner. To produce hydrogen, one only needs water and DC electricity, which can be generated by solar panels. A byproduct is - oxygen.

The downside is so far still obvious - think "Hindenburg". But sooner or later there will not be an alternative to it, so they better start getting their development and research going in that direction.

Best regards......

Thanh

[JAS21]

I was thinking about the LPG conversion too. Does anyone have an example comparison between what it costs to run Benzine 91 (which I have at the moment) and LPG? i.e. is there that much of a saving?

There are several UK companies that you can look at..just google LPG conversion..and you will find that they have a litttle programme to help you work out savings.

I used them before we converted my wife's car to LPG a couple of years ago. Remember that the CV of LPG is lower than gasoline (if I recall correctly about 10%) so you get about 10% less kms/ltr on LPG. So you should be able to work out you relative costs/Km for each fuel. Then see how many KMS you need to drive to break even against the cost of the conversion.

Of course engine wear is likely to be higher on LPG and you may need to 'service' the boiler' every couple of years, unless you use an 'induction system'

There is loads of info on the net. But who knows what the relative price will be in a year or so!

Edit

Try this link its in MPG so you will have to convert

http://www.prinslpgnetwork.com/fuelcalculator.html

Edited June 9, 2008 by John45

[absolutelyBangkok]

Wanted to convert a CR-V to NGV, but guess what, the nearest NGV-station had a queue of about 30 taxis waiting.

They told me one filling takes about 20 minutes.

And a gas tank is taking away lots of space in your trunk.

Yes, benzine is expensive - but still not yet as expensive to justify a switch at all cost.

I'm sticking with the original engine until the policy of the government gets clearer.

Because kind of convinced that the oil bubble is about to burst.

[sunflowerhx]

Hi I just bought a new  E20 Yaris.

Can anyone explain what the benefits/disadvantage of the compatible fuels below.

- Benzine 95

- Benzine 91

- Gasohol 95

- Gasohol 91

- E20

Does Gasohol mean E10?

Why is Gasohol 95 cheaper than Gasohol 91? When Benzine 95 is more than Gasohol 91?

[ozsamurai]

I was thinking about the LPG conversion too. Does anyone have an example comparison between what it costs to run Benzine 91 (which I have at the moment) and LPG? i.e. is there that much of a saving?

Search the NGV LPG thread here, there are a few running they will answer this in length. Probably listening to Monty is your best bet it seems....

[Plus]

Diesels run perfectly fine on any kind of vegetable oil - soybean, sunflower, palm....... as long as it can be used for cooking, it can be used to run a Diesel.

Any regular 4-stroke "benzene" engine can run on any percentage of ehtanol, right up to E100.

I don't know what you mean by "perfectly fine", but latest diesel engines from Europe won't run even on diesel sold at the local pumps, it's not clean enough. Forget about filling up with soybean oil.

As for benzene engines - yes, they can theoretically run on any type of ethanol blends but modifications are costly.

We asked about upgrading our Camry to E20, after all new Camries are E20 compatible already, shouldn't be a big deal, still it costs 80,000 baht to replace all affected parts.

Running on LPG cost 30-40% of running on petrol, depending on LPG system used. Now they decided to subsidize gasohol for six months and increase LPG price, so the difference might become 50-60% of running on petrol, at least while subsidies are in place.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

I was referring to the engine itself running on the stuff i mentioned, i.e. vegetable oil for Diesels or Ethanol in 4-stroke Otto engines. However if the manufacturers design all that surrounding crap to be incompatible with the fuel, that's neither the driver's nor the fuel's fault, much less so the way-too-high prices they charge to "convert" the engines - replacing a few gaskets that are ethanol-dissolvable on purpose, after all they know since DECADES that we will drive on Ethanol some day, and of course their business is selling cars - specialized if need be, see the current "E20-Compatible" scam. What's next, "All-new E50-compatible" in a couple of years, or "super E85-compatible"??

Face it - an Otto engine burns anything that burns and can be ignited by a spark. A Diesel burns anything that can be ignited by compression heat. The things "incompatible with such-and-such fuel" are gaskets, maybe injector nozzles that need different size, and hoses made of poor material. The rest is a re-program of the computer or re-tune of the carb and you're ready to go.

By the way my old Volvo, according to Volvo "can not use Gasohol" but he doesn't know that, so he's done some 35k Kilometers on E10 without the slightest problem and has now the second filling of E20 in his tank. Without ANY modifications whatsoever.

Still no problem.

Best regards......

Thanh

[Plus]

I was referring to the engine itself running on the stuff i mentioned.... However if the manufacturers design all that surrounding crap to be incompatible with the fuel,

Like Mercedes Benz cars unnecessarily added to the diesel engines?

[Galong]

Hi

A Diesel burns anything that can be ignited by compression heat. The things "incompatible with such-and-such fuel" are gaskets, maybe injector nozzles that need different size, and hoses made of poor material. The rest is a re-program of the computer or re-tune of the carb and you're ready to go.

Are there any companies in Thailand that offer this 'change-over' service? Are there any in Phuket?

I'd like to switch over my longtail boat at first to see how it works.

Thanks...

[Gary A]

Hi I just bought a new  E20 Yaris.

Can anyone explain what the benefits/disadvantage of the compatible fuels below.

- Benzine 95

- Benzine 91

- Gasohol 95

- Gasohol 91

- E20

Does Gasohol mean E10?

Why is Gasohol 95 cheaper than Gasohol 91? When Benzine 95 is more than Gasohol 91?

95 is not cheaper. If your car needs 95 octane and is compatible with E20 it will run fine. I think my car runs better on E20 and the fuel economy is as good or better than with 95 octane gasoline.

E20 is currently the cheapest fuel you can buy. I tried to copy and post the current fuel prices, but it won't allow me to copy the prices.

Google PTT and you can see the prices of everything they sell.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Gary A

[Cuban]

Try this link... Edited July 26, 2008 by Cuban

[phupaman]

Hi All.

I have a 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0. It runs well on 91 petrol and on 91 gasohol, can anyone tell me if it will run on E20 or any other grade of fuel. Thanks for any replies..

phupaman.

[Gary A]

Hi All.

I have a 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0. It runs well on 91 petrol and on 91 gasohol, can anyone tell me if it will run on E20 or any other grade of fuel. Thanks for any replies..

phupaman.

I'm guessing that you can't use E20. As far as I know, only the Ford Focus and some of the 2008 new models can use E20.

[monty]

By the way my old Volvo, according to Volvo "can not use Gasohol" but he doesn't know that, so he's done some 35k Kilometers on E10 without the slightest problem and has now the second filling of E20 in his tank. Without ANY modifications whatsoever.

You're lucky.

My old Volvo (B230 engine) had it's fuel injection system completely and utterly destroyed by gasohol.

In- tank fuel pump : destroyed

External fuel pump: destroyed

Fuel pressure regulating valve: destroyed

Fuel injectors, not really destroyed but the seals dissolved

I run on LPG, and only LPG because repairing the gasohol damage would set me back a cool 20,000 Baht.

[Cuban]

My old Volvo (B230 engine) had it's fuel injection system completely and utterly destroyed by gasohol.

1985?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

I don't know about the engine type in mine, but it's a '94 Volvo 460 GLE with the 2.0 litre engine, four-point injection. Maybe (just *maybe*) it's fuel pump has no problems with Gasohol because it has been replaced already - before Gasohol became available tough, but nevertheless a new one is in there since 2003. I still suspect that it was the result of a garage rip-off - as i had brought the perfectly running car to a garage to do some body repairs after an accident (that garage was contracted by the insurance company!) and after it was "fixed" it didn't even bring me home - after less than 5 kilometers the engine stopped and wouldn't start again, a different garage then changed parts for well OVER 20,000 Baht which included that fuel pump.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[Galong]

Speaking of garages ripping people off... a buddy of mine was told that it would cost him 34,000 Baht to get a water leak fixed on his truck at this one particular garage. He went to another place and they fixed it for 160 baht!

Shopping around does pay off sometimes.

[monty]

My old Volvo (B230 engine) had it's fuel injection system completely and utterly destroyed by gasohol.

1985?

'84...

Bosh multipoint injection LH jetronic 2.2

[Thanh-BKK]

Speaking of garages ripping people off... a buddy of mine was told that it would cost him 34,000 Baht to get a water leak fixed on his truck at this one particular garage. He went to another place and they fixed it for 160 baht!

Shopping around does pay off sometimes.

Hi

You can't do much "shopping around" if you're stuck with a really non-running car and need to be towed - of course you tow to the nearest place. THAT shop, altough having success in fixing the engine, damaged some other things in the process (power steering unit being the most expensive one, another 15k at yet another garage).... they all see "the Farang driver" and smell money, i think they intentionally swap good parts with broken ones and later, if you dare to go to the same place again, sell you your original parts back. That engine repair took close to two weeks (waiting for parts...... bloody 460, everything has to be imported as that one is NOT "Made In Thailand"!) so it is kinda hard to stay and look over their shoulders.

Another place tried to sell my boyfriend (Thai, but they had seen me in the car before) a new cylinder head gasket for 20k inc. labour to cure an overheating problem - i advised him not to fall for that scam as there was neither oil in the coolant nor white smoke from the exhaust, i did it myself - replaced the faulty fan relay and it has been chugging on ever since, never overheated again (60 Baht for the relay and a bit of soldering by myself).

Best regards....

Thanh

[HDRIDER]

Hi

http://www.bangkokpost.com/280708_Business...2008_biz003.php

[Galong]

You can't do much "shopping around" if you're stuck with a really non-running car and need to be towed - of course you tow to the nearest place.

Hi Thanh,

It was a small water leak. The first place wanted to replace the entire engine! The second place 'spot welded' the metal pipe.

I do see and agree with your point that if it's non-running, you're kinda at their mercy, though if it was an outrageous quote I'd probably have it towed elsewhere.