At Least 78 Die After Thailand Riot

[guran]

You're leading a four man team, hunkered down behing the rocks about 120 metres from a village hosting fifteen Taliban fighters.

You have all the Taliban tagged and placed. You plan to hit them in five minutes, during the next Salaah. With surprise on your side you can take them all out easily as they kneel to pray.

A little girl with a puppy on a leash approaches your position. A couple of metres away she spots you, and freezes.

Do you let her raise the alarm, resulting in certain capture and maybe death for you and your team, or do you ignore the military code of honor and the rules of engagement and slit her throat, then hit the village before she's missed ?

It's quite obvious which choice you would have made Kate, I would not expect you to be anything but a wimp.

[wolf5370]

The "little girl walking a dog' scenario is an impossible question to answer unless you've been there and are talking about experience - any armchair answer is pure BS. I feel very sorry for anyone having to make the decision between the lives of men/women that have entrusted their lives to them and an innocent bystander. Unfortunatly, war is war and morality sometimes has to be broken in the effort to survive and keep those important to you alive.

The model pacifist answer would have been withdraw I suppose, but that is often far easier said than done. Hitting her would cause noise; to knock her unconscious would mean a great blow and this could be a noisy messy death too. Noise calls the enermy and the dog would bark too. She may also be an armed combatant too - in a war zone where the enermy gives guns to children, and in an enermy compund, maybe one has to play the odds.

Anyway you look at it, its a nasty situation. This is why Katy posed it I guess. It is also why governments train people like Katy, her colleagues and superiors to make these decisions. For most, the public are happy with the decisions as long as they don't get to hear about it!

I have to agree within reason with both camps.

I do believe this was an almighty balls up and at least an investigation should ensue. From this incompetant or corrupt officials that might have had hand in it should be sacked (or prosecuted, investigation pending) and hopefully recommendations as to how to deal with this better in the future should also come to light.

I also beleave that the Govt and the millitary command, at least, did not order the slaying of these people. Indeed, it seems to me that they actively tried to restrict the possibility of death by arresting rather than shooting. As Katy implied, it was incompetance that lead to them being stacked into trucks that lead to their deaths. Better trained/experienced troops/police, better logistics and greater resources would have seen the prisoners safe. The deaths were from negligence rather than premeditation - man slaughter at worse, rather than murder.

Of course, if they were not rioting in an area of continual armed insurgence and armed attacks against the legal establishment, then they would not have been stacked into the trucks in the first place; death by misadventure?

Can we please try to calm down a bit now guys - Jai Yen . No reason to call for banning people, I have only seen different standviews; insults have been thick and fast from both sides - both breaking the TOS I might add.

[Darknight]

Jai yen it is wolfie, (always was by the way, you can surely mirror others arguments without losing your inner calm)

In a buddhist philosophy i would rather die myself then cause that kind off harm to others. No matter what religion, opinion, honour or other bs is behind it.

Please call me a coward, so my seeds will remain in your head and being for a long time.... They will sprout one day.................................

[Darknight]

To come to know that nothing is good, nothing is bad, is a turning point; it is a conversion. You start looking in; the outside reality loses meaning. The social reality is a fiction, a beautiful drama; you can participate in it, but then you don't take it seriously. It is just a role to be played; play it as beautifully, as efficiently, as possible. But don't take it seriously, it has nothing of the ultimate in it.

Zen

[katyusha]

The "little girl walking a dog' scenario is an impossible question to answer unless you've been there and are talking about experience - any armchair answer is pure BS. I feel very sorry for anyone having to make the decision between the lives of men/women that have entrusted their lives to them and an innocent bystander. Unfortunatly, war is war and morality sometimes has to be broken in the effort to survive and keep those important to you alive.

The model pacifist answer would have been withdraw I suppose, but that is often far easier said than done. Hitting her would cause noise; to knock her unconscious would mean a great blow and this could be a noisy messy death too. Noise calls the enermy and the dog would bark too. She may also be an armed combatant too - in a war zone where the enermy gives guns to children, and in an enermy compund, maybe one has to play the odds.

Anyway you look at it, its a nasty situation. This is why Katy posed it I guess. It is also why governments train people like Katy, her colleagues and superiors to make these decisions. For most, the public are happy with the decisions as long as they don't get to hear about it!

I have to agree within reason with both camps.

I do believe this was an almighty balls up and at least an investigation should ensue. From this incompetant or corrupt officials that might have had hand in it should be sacked (or prosecuted, investigation pending) and hopefully recommendations as to how to deal with this better in the future should also come to light.

I also beleave that the Govt and the millitary command, at least, did not order the slaying of these people. Indeed, it seems to me that they actively tried to restrict the possibility of death by arresting rather than shooting. As Katy implied, it was incompetance that lead to them being stacked into trucks that lead to their deaths. Better trained/experienced troops/police, better logistics and greater resources would have seen the prisoners safe. The deaths were from negligence rather than premeditation - man slaughter at worse, rather than murder.

Of course, if they were not rioting in an area of continual armed insurgence and armed attacks against the legal establishment, then they would not have been stacked into the trucks in the first place; death by misadventure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no disagreement with anything you said.

Yours is a voice of sanity and reason amid a cacophony of mindless stupidity.

[kat]

The "little girl walking a dog' scenario is an impossible question to answer unless you've been there and are talking about experience - any armchair answer is pure BS. I feel very sorry for anyone having to make the decision between the lives of men/women that have entrusted their lives to them and an innocent bystander. Unfortunatly, war is war and morality sometimes has to be broken in the effort to survive and keep those important to you alive.

The model pacifist answer would have been withdraw I suppose, but that is often far easier said than done. Hitting her would cause noise; to knock her unconscious would mean a great blow and this could be a noisy messy death too. Noise calls the enermy and the dog would bark too. She may also be an armed combatant too - in a war zone where the enermy gives guns to children, and in an enermy compund, maybe one has to play the odds.

Anyway you look at it, its a nasty situation. This is why Katy posed it I guess. It is also why governments train people like Katy, her colleagues and superiors to make these decisions. For most, the public are happy with the decisions as long as they don't get to hear about it!

I just spent 10 minutes typing a respone and lost it.  Oh well.  The abbreviated version:  I can appreciate Wolf's comments, and I can appreciate Katyusha's example.  No one should have to make a decision like that, but people do in times of war.  Which is why I am against unnecessary war, and I view the current war in Iraq as unnecessary to America's security or self-defense.

Along the lines of our topic, it does not matter whether the Thai government "intentionally" killed these people or not.  The fact is that they did kill them, whether directly or their indirect method of consistently neglecting human rights and the rule of law.  I am sick and tired of their "honest" mistakes.  Pathetic.

I definitely sympathize with this point of view, and I can appreciate Katyusha's example.  It is easier to judge when one is not in the position.  War produces unspeakable dilemmas like this one, which is why I am against unnecessary wars.  Unnecessary wars are those that are not fought in self-defense, and this war was not a threat to American or global security.

Anyway, on the topic of discussion,  I think the Thai government has made far too many mistakes of the murderous kind.  Far too many.   Even if they didn't intend to kill, their brazen disregard for human rights did kill.  I have no charitiable thoughts for them at all.

On another note, I really hate when threads are closed or people threatened with censorship because the discussion gets difficult.  We are here to discuss, otherwise I'll gladly go watch television or read a book.

I have to agree within reason with both camps.

I do believe this was an almighty balls up and at least an investigation should ensue. From this incompetant or corrupt officials that might have had hand in it should be sacked (or prosecuted, investigation pending) and hopefully recommendations as to how to deal with this better in the future should also come to light.

I also beleave that the Govt and the millitary command, at least, did not order the slaying of these people. Indeed, it seems to me that they actively tried to restrict the possibility of death by arresting rather than shooting. As Katy implied, it was incompetance that lead to them being stacked into trucks that lead to their deaths. Better trained/experienced troops/police, better logistics and greater resources would have seen the prisoners safe. The deaths were from negligence rather than premeditation - man slaughter at worse, rather than murder.

Of course, if they were not rioting in an area of continual armed insurgence and armed attacks against the legal establishment, then they would not have been stacked into the trucks in the first place; death by misadventure?

Can we please try to calm down a bit now guys - Jai Yen  .  No reason to call for banning people, I have only seen different standviews; insults have been thick and fast from both sides - both breaking the TOS I might add.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kat]

I find this new quoting function to be a bit bizarre. That is why my last post seems to just have a quote with nothing written by me. My comments are confusingly embedded in the quotes, but I can't change it.

Anyway, what I meant to say, cut and pasted:

I just spent 10 minutes typing a respone and lost it. Oh well. The abbreviated version: I can appreciate Wolf's comments, and I can appreciate Katyusha's example. No one should have to make a decision like that, but people do in times of war. Which is why I am against unnecessary war, and I view the current war in Iraq as unnecessary to America's security or self-defense.

Along the lines of our topic, it does not matter whether the Thai government "intentionally" killed these people or not. The fact is that they did kill them, whether directly or their indirect method of consistently neglecting human rights and the rule of law. I am sick and tired of their "honest" mistakes. Pathetic.

[guran]

Agree with everything you said Kat with the exception below.

I view the current war in Iraq as unnecessary to America's security or self-defense.

Not only unecessary but in all probability detrimental to America's security.

[kat]

Guran:

Your exception is more like an addition, because I totally agree.

[JemJem]

This glorification of militaristic stuff by katyusha (a.k.a. rod kalashnikov) is really pathetic.

Okay......someone had mentioned why the Thai public has mostly stayed 'passive' /'indifferent' to this tragic incident. Okay, let me tell you why :

This passiveness/indifference has very little to do with Buddhist Thais' having a strong dislike for the Muslim Thais of the South...sure, there are such people (there are bigots in every country) but their number is negligible.

The reason is that the Thai public is now 'depoliticised'. Successive governments in the latter parts of of the second half of the 20 th century has managed to depoliticise the Thai public, with the help of the military and police. There is hardly any effective student movement anymore, unlike in the early and middle parts of the second half of the past century). Left-wingers/socialists /humanists are barely tolerated...there isn't even a Socialist Party.

Left-wingers and intellectuals have unfortunately successfully been 'hushed' by the governments, with the help of the military and the police of course. 'Money rules' has become the norm. Most of the media continually towed the government line, due to pressure and favors.

The 'depoliticisation of the public' did not occur just in Thailand. At the top of my head, I can name Indonesia, Turkey, Greece, Argentina and in fact many countries of South America. The process in these countries all took place in the second part of the last century. Almost all the time, the governments that 'took care' of the depoliticisation were of right-wing ideology. Right-wing paramilitary groups were assisted by these governments and they wreaked havoc on university students and workers (in Argentina, Colombia and Turkey, for instance). Torture of political dissidents often occurred. Human rights were deeply violated. Even football was used as psychological warfare (''let them watch plenty of football and they can forget about politics'') in South America.

Keeping all this mind....any surprise why there has been little outcry to this latest tragic incident ?

Sad !

Regards,

Jem

[katyusha]

This glorification of militaristic stuff by katyusha (a.k.a. rod kalashnikov) is really pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought you were just a stupid little man JamJum, but I was wrong. Your obsessive "a.k.a. rod kalashnikov" fixation exposes you as a deluded &lt;deleted&gt;.

The rest of your pseudo-intellectual "depoliticised" crap is unworthy of comment.

[BoomBoom]

for anyone that hasnt seen it here is the video from the BBC news report

[guran]

It would be interesting if Kate could inform us as to why he was in Iraq and what good his presence there has done.

[meom]

You're leading a four man team, hunkered down behing the rocks about 120 metres from a village hosting fifteen Taliban fighters.

You have all the Taliban tagged and placed. You plan to hit them in five minutes, during the next Salaah. With surprise on your side you can take them all out easily as they kneel to pray.

A little girl with a puppy on a leash approaches your position. A couple of metres away she spots you, and freezes.

Do you let her raise the alarm, resulting in certain capture and maybe death for you and your team, or do you ignore the military code of honor and the rules of engagement and slit her throat, then hit the village before she's missed ?

Great example katyusha. How about this one:

You've drifted away from your team and the enemy captures you.

Once caught they are about to rape you. What do you do? Put up a struggle or try to enjoy the ride since it's unavoidable anyway.

[amarka]

[ quote=stroll,2004-10-28 19:24:14]

OK, back to square one.

So are you saying all arrested rioters are 'terrorists'- " people who knowing take the life's of others" and deserve to be tortured to death by the Thai military in the procedure described in the article?

What then are the soldiers and their commanders, Thai military- are they terrorist's, "people who knowing take the life's of others", or how would you describe causing a defenseless man to be slowly suffocated to death by the weight of his defenseless comrades ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hello stroll,

no I am not saying that all rioters are terrorists.

my original comments were an answer to what george wrote.

what happened here was very bad and I think many innocent people suffered because of a few bad people. " same old story "

there is a terrorist problem in the south and maybe because of that the military reacted badly - but the police station was attacked? was it not ?

the way the army dealt with the transportation of the prisoners was not correct and that has already been confirmed by both the thai government and the military - they have apologized , although I dare say this means very little to the families and friends of those who died.

it was not the thai governments fault.

having said all that I still stand by my original comment and would not allow terrorist rights.

amarka

[amarka]

For the vast majority of people human rights work and are respected.

for terrorists - people who knowing take the life's of others,

yes you are right I have no respect for them and would not offer them human rights..

amarka

only human rights for those that you respect ?

That's probably what Pol Pot, Stalin along with others thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hi...

no only human rights for humans and none for those who murder the innocent..

do you respect terrorists ? people who plant bombs in public places and blow up innocent people ?

amarka

[350torana]

Talk about throwing gasoline on a bonfire . I find it apalling that so many people died while in custody, all be it in transport. Pigs or cows get better treatment in trucks. Kinda reminds me of the way the Nazis would pack Jews or Russian POWS into trains. I have no time for Musilm radicals but those who died were arrested, many will never make it to court. Thaksin should be making apologies ,rather than lame excuses, because this only throws more fuel on the fire. Oh, i forgot...no one wants to lose face

[george]

Update:

Government admits mistakes in death of 78 protestors

Bangkok: -- The Thai Government today admitted its mistake and error of judgement which led to the death by suffocation of 78 protestors while being carried away in police trucks in a Muslim district in southern Thailand.

But a statement issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs also said there was "no deliberate intent, in anyway, to mistreat the detainees." "Although the deaths cannot be condoned, one would also have to look at the pressing circumstances that the authorities and officers in charge were operating under," the ministry said.

The Thai Permanent Secretary briefed ambassadors of several countries this evening on Monday's incident in which 78 people were suffocated or crushed to death when police piled more than 1200 detainees into four trucks.

An enquiry had been ordered and the preliminary findings would be made available in two days.

Initial investigation shows the deaths were most likely caused by the way the detainees were transported.

The statement added that the authorities were operating under pressure of time coupled with lack of sufficient number of trucks whcih led to the ''over capacity of the trucks.'' It however said that negligence on the part of the authority would not be ruled out.

The government added that the total death toll resulting from Monday's incident is 87.

--PTI 2004-10-28

[meom]

Yeah and peace to John Lennon, Imagine springs to mind.

[guran]

The government added that the total death toll resulting from Monday's incident is 87.

What's the explanation for the 3 new deaths ? bird flu ??

[BoomBoom]

The government added that the total death toll resulting from Monday's incident is 87.

What's the explanation for the 3 new deaths ? bird flu ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sun stroke probably

[guran]

hi...

no only human rights for humans and none for those who murder the innocent..

do you respect terrorists ? people who plant bombs in public places and blow up innocent people ?

amarka

what about the people who drop bombs from planes on innocent people ?

what about the people who start wars for political & economic reasons ?

what about the governments which arms nations which commit genocide on the innocent ?

what about the soldiers who kill innocent civilians on foreign soil ?

what about the soldiers who torture innocent civilians to death ?

what about the generals who cooly calculate with collateral damage ?

what about the israeli politicians who blew up innocent people in palestine ?

what about the executioners who executed the innocent ?

what about the soldiers who may have grabbed innocent onlookers during mondays incident ?

Human rights apply to all.

It is not up to the strongest to decide upon who human rights should apply to.

[capt_canada42]

Move the border just south of Phuket

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You guys are doing alot of censoring people comments George

[capt_canada42]

Move the border just south of Phuket

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You guys are doing alot of censoring people comments George

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a need for site that is open an honest not one that is controlled by censures and business

[guran]

The Nation

----------------

EDITORIAL: Has Thailand lost its conscience?

Published on October 28, 2004

In a way, public apathy allows the PM to continually push the bounds of decency

The violent crackdown on Muslim protesters in Narathiwat’s Tak Bai district on Monday, which resulted in several deaths during a bloody clash at the scene of the protest and the subsequent loss of scores more lives after more than 1,300 people, mainly young men, were rounded up and put in the army’s custody, has been met with what can only be described as widespread public apathy. The relative lack of a public response to this glaring example of state-sponsored violence is reminiscent of the ambivalent public reaction to the news that the Thaksin administration’s anti-drug campaign had left more than 2,000 suspects dead in its wake, including many victims of extra-judicial killings.

It comes as no surprise that both the Tak Bai crackdown, which resulted in more than 80 deaths, and the war on drugs were both authorised by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

In both instances, the Thaksin administration showed a total disregard for the most basic human rights guaranteed by the Constitution to all Thai citizens, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

If the prevailing public opinion is any guide, then Thaksin obviously got away with the bloody crackdown on drug traffickers. It is not yet clear how well or how badly he will fare in the wake of the Tak Bai incident.

Most of the protesters had been observing the Ramadan fasting period and were therefore prone to severe dehydration and exhaustion, yet they were given neither food nor drink after being arrested

Prisoners, all of them with their hands tied behind their back, were packed – many stacked up horizontally, several people deep – into military vehicles and heavy trucks. As a result, many of them suffocated or were crushed to death while being transported to an army barracks in Pattani for interrogation.

It is not an exaggeration to say that cattle being delivered to the slaughterhouse are provided better conditions and more humane treatment.

The circumstances leading to this catastrophe remain sketchy and could not be independently confirmed a few days after the tragic and preventable deaths were allowed to happen under the watch of the Fourth Army.

The gross incompetence and total absence of professionalism in the handling of the protesters on display here cuts straight to the heart of the army’s supposed commitment to restoring peace in the restive Muslim-majority southernmost provinces by winning the hearts and minds of the locals while working to weed out Islamic militancy through military means.

At this point, it would matter little if some of the arrested protesters turned out to be known Islamic militants who had committed or been involved in the flare-up of murder and terror that has raged in the South. Even the most vicious and evil of terrorists are entitled to due process of law and a fair trial.

These deaths fly in the face of the military’s code of conduct, which demands that civilians and enemy combatants alike be treated humanely. This is of course to make no mention of the imperatives of common human decency.

Instead of initiating an independent inquiry into this tragic incident, General Sirichai Thanyasiri, who is in charge of the military command in the Muslim South, yesterday appointed senior government officials and army and police officers to determine whether any wrongdoing had been committed leading to the deaths of so many of the protesters in the Fourth Army’s custody.

This thinly veiled charade of justice is a fresh affront to the already grieving local Muslim population, which will naturally want a full explanation of what happened to its loved ones. They expect to see that justice is done, wrongdoers punished, their loss compensated and, above all, that the Thaksin administration make a sincere and unreserved public apology.

Without waiting for the outcome of the internal investigation, Prime Minister Thaksin has had the nerve to extend his forgiveness to all military personnel involved, casually dismissing the deaths of the protesters in captivity as an “unfortunate accident”.

The prime minister also appeared unperturbed by the chorus of international condemnation, saying instead that Thailand could explain away what happened simply as an internal affair.

Most conspicuous, however, has been the absence of public outrage in this country over the brutal treatment of the Tak Bai protesters. Only a handful of human rights advocates have made any noise. In a predominantly Buddhist country that ascribes to itself such noble attributes as compassion, respect for the sanctity of life and tolerance, the silence of the voice of conscience is deafening.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Steely Dan]

I will not mince my words in stating that those who kill Monks with machetes and murder school teachers are nothing short of scum of the earth and should be executed AFTER due trial and process. However to allow around 80 prisoners to suffocate whilst in police custody beggars belief. In the west people would be thrown in jail for transporting animals in the negligent manner the authorities did - Thaksin has brought disgrace on Thailand but depressingly I see the lack of political awareness amongst the Thai populace in general will probably mean he will get re-elected. However I predict that the prospects of Al Quaeda turning their attention to Thailand are now a racing certainty.

[English Noodles]

what about the people who start wars for political & economic reasons ?

Romans, Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Hittites, etc, all conquered in the name of economics. Somebody had gold, they took it. It was only the novel Israeli uprising of AD79, sparked by a refusal to pay taxes to the Roman god, that the notion of fighting for one's god was invented.

Even after that, the most successful empires were economically based. The Spanish were religious, yes, but, it was gold that sent them to the New World. Likely too the British had their notion of saving the world, but it was the lure of riches that sent them to India and Africa.

World War I was also an economic war. It was about access to trade for the then rising German empire. World War II was mixed. It was religious for the Nazis (in their pursuit of state as god), and economic for the Japanese.

Most US interventions have been about money. Let's see: 1898, money. World War I, money, World War II - the opportunity for an American dynasty was definately a factor in Roosevelt's decision making. Korea, Viet Nam - money (capitalism vs communism), Iraq I - money, Iraq II - money (we hope, although, it could actually be a religious war).

Noodles.

[wolf5370]

Noodles, WW2 was economic too. Germany took Poland as it was one of the greatest economic centres at the time. Britain declared war after the invasion of Poland - nary a word after the invasion of Czechoslovakia (Bohemia and Slovakia) over a year before.

"At Munich in 1938, Chamberlain (PM) had appeased Hitler by giving him the Sudetenland areas of Czechoslovakia"

[stroll]

hi...

no only human rights for humans and none for those who murder the innocent..

do you respect terrorists ? people who plant bombs in public places and blow up innocent people ?

amarka

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have not answered my earlier question.

To put it a more directly:

Do you think all of the 1300 arrested protesters and 86 dead were 'terrorists' who do not deserve to be transported in a way any live creature would deserve?

[SoCal]

6 Killed Amid Rioting in Southern Thailand

BANGKOK, Thailand: -- Security forces fired shots in the air and used water cannons and tear gas to disperse about 2,000 angry Muslim youths rioting in Thailand's troubled south Monday, leaving at least six people dead and 12 injured, an official said.

A protest to demand the release of six detained security guards turned violent earlier Monday, with demonstrators hurling rocks at a police station in southern Narathiwat province's Takbai district and overturning a military truck.

The rioters then tried to storm the building and a nearby district office during the six-hour melee. Police and soldiers responded by firing water cannons and tear gas, while shooting in the air to scatter the rioters.

--AP 2004-10-25

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stroll, could you be any more disingenuous? This was no peaceful demonstration. To aide your lack of memory, I have quoted George's original posting.

Yes, in Thailand if you are going to treat policemen and soldiers in such a manner, don't be surprised if you do not live another day. This is why I say they played a role that fateful day. Why this is so hard for you to grasp is beyond me.

I for one would like to see responsibility taken on both sides, and honest talks held, but you know what? If you and I cannot come to terms, then no way the Muslims and Thai govt ever will. So, let the Muslims be outraged at their persecution, let them spill their river of blood, and let the Thai govt crack the whip. Yes, your solution of Muslim indignation is the correct course.

No question why the world has so many problems.