Drug Treatment For Unwilling Relative?

[RY12]

My thai gf has a sister hooked on amphetamine of some sort (not sure what the drug is exactly, but that one where u hold a spoon over a lighter). She was put in jail for a few months a while back, but had just as much access to drugs there apparently as she did on the street. Is there any way to treat her, any solution at all when she's uncooperative and unwilling? Are there forced hospital-prisons or something for rehab? or does it all have to be consentual? She's so messed up she's draining the money of the family and getting involved with shady characters, we're scared she may sell her body if she can't get money any other way.

thanks for any help.

[Chris Lawrence]

http://www.jimmaclaine.com/wysl/chaptersummaries.htm

WHEN SOMEONE YOU LOVE IS ADDICTED TO ALCOHOL OR DRUGS

By Jim Maclaine – Chapter Summaries

Try the above link. Not a bad book on explaining somethings. Also have a look in the 'I drink too much' part of TV.

There are some 12 step meetings that help; Alonon and Naranon they are groups for families that are affected by a family member that is taking drugs or alcohol. Type these words into the search sites and you will get some information. I understand there are these groups in Bangkok.

Just try and talk to some people that are or have gone thru the same thing. It might be hard with the family; sometimes people don't want to see the seriousness of the problem. Then again you might have a family that don't want the problem?

There are other books or material u can read. Start to Google.

Good luck mate.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

My youngest daughter in the states is the same way. She ask for help (in the way of $$) and I told her I would fly back and make all of the arrangements for her to go into rehab. All she had to do was agree and I would have taken care of eveything.

When she realised I wouldn't send her more $ so she could buy more drugs, she will not respond to me any more. Sent her heaps of e-mails but it has done no good. She is very paranoid and hard to communicate with. And the rehab facilities will not take them unless it is voluntarily.

I realise this does you no good whatsoever. But at least you will know you are not alone. Unless they want to quit I don't think you can do anything meaningfull to help them. As sad as that may be. Giving them $ just goes into drugs and makes them worse not better. Should you come across a solution I would like to hear it.

Good Luck and I hope it goes well for her.

[RY12]

Thanks for the posts.

So does anyone know if there is anything medically dangerous about just isolating an addict completely from drugs until her system cleans out? This sister has cut most of her head hair off and looks very thin, but I've seen her without drugs for a week and she seems irritable but not in a physically dangerous state of withdrawal. If cold withdrawal is medically ok, then perhaps:

1.) we could lure her back to Isaan and get her arrested there; the prisons perhaps being more drug free over there?

2.) chain her to a tree in Isaan... no, but seriously, isolate her ourselves if the prisons won't.

The thing is were's not entirely sure how hooked she actually is, she actually has one of those parastitic thai boyfriends who wait for her to get money from another foreign boyfriend she met a while back... so if the thai boyfriend could get out of the picture, she might just give up drugs altogether to stop trying to please him.

[Sheryl]

She will have access to drugs in any prison.

The effects of crystal meth, which is what it sounds like, can last for a year more after usage stops and there may also be permanent neurological damage. She would be extremely hard to deal wuth kept in isolation, might indeed have some serious medical problems andf even if not, would quite likely become violent and otherwise impossible to handle. This is really not a viable option.

Furthermore, addicition has both physical and psychological components, it is not as simple as getting her off the drugs and the drugs out of her system. She'll go right back out and start using all over again at the first opportunity, because the underlying disease of addicition has not been addressed. And there is no way to addtress it unless she, herself, is willing to do so.

I'm afraid that the naswer to your question

" Is there any way to treat her, any solution at all when she's uncooperative and unwilling?"

is simply -- no.

The only thing you can do is take all necessary measures to protect yourselves and rest of the family from the consequences of her behavior and be on hand to step in if and when she ever really wants help.

Yes, she may sell her body. Good chance she already has. And she may proceed to utterly and completely destroy herslef. It is very sad, but it happens.

Addicts have to "hit bottom" before they are prepared to accept help and everyone's bottom is different. Some people's bottom is, unfortunately, below their life line.

Sorry to have to say all this but it is the case. At this point all you can do is help yourselves and hope that she eventually does seek help.

If and when she ever does get help, one of the most painful things she will go through in recovery will be the realization of the harm she has caused to others. By taking all possible steps to protect yoursleves and limit the harm she does to the rest of the family you are actually doing her a favor too. It will be that much less on her conscience to face.

Good luck.

[garro]

Wat Thamkrabok might be able to advise you on this. They offer a drug rehabilitation service and many of the Thai patients are recovering from meta-amphetamine(yaa-baa).

It is often argued that you can't force somebody to quit, but unfortunately many yaa baa addicts have completely lost the power of choice -even more so than other addicts. A problem is that most also tend to abuse paint-thinner which really fries the brain - they use this to come down. It also quickly leads to psychosis and paranoia. They need time away from it to give their brain a chance to recover - many don't recover normal mental functioning if it is left too long. I hope this is not case with GF's sister.

Once she is inside the temple it will be difficult for her to leave. The temple may take her against her will, but you will need to speak to them about this. I am an ex-patient of the temple and can highly recommend it. Contact me if you need more advice.

http://www.thamkrabok.org/

Edited June 16, 2008 by garro

[Shotime]

Very sad. Sheryl's last post is the best advice you can find. There's nothing you can do. It's entirely up to the person, and that usually requires hitting a bottom. The worst addiction I've ever seen is to meth. Worse than opiates, and meth, as far as I know, isn't physically addictive. Just offer to help should they ever decide they need to stop. I know it sounds heartless, but you need to stop trying to help. The sooner they hit that bottom, the more chance they have to get their life back.

"Sorry to have to say all this but it is the case. At this point all you can do is help yourselves and hope that she eventually does seek help."

You are not alone, and there are groups available to help you deal with your difficult situation. I wouldn't try to force anything. You'll only make it worse.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Shotime

[xbusman]

Sheryl gave an excellent post.

There is a body of belief that is quite strong in the addiction community that one must hit rock bottom before any changes can come. That has been the generally accepted belief and quite well proven out long term with such help groups like alanon.

Over the past decade, there is a new controversial process termed intervention. In a nutshell (and there is lots of info on the net), they agree in principle with the concept of change from within and support but believe that the enablers can bring the crisis to a head in a controlled manner. To understand this, you have to see that a person can only sustain "problem" behavior if they have an enabler, someone who provides the environment and support to continue the problem behavior. When you find an addict, you need to search out that person that helps them get funds, bails them out of jail, and generally shields them from the consequences of their behavior.

There is a self righting mechanism for both enablers and addicts, as in the case of beentheredonethat, eventually the addiction either destroys both or the enabler stops the support. That is the first step toward the eventual traumatic event signifying rock bottom and the last great chance for the addict. In effect the point of no return, if they dont seek help there then if they are lucky they go to jail, if not....

Interventionists believe that before the traumatic event, the enablers can control the cessation of support with the offer of help. In essence, they believe that enablers do so out of misguided love and concern and instead of supporting destructive habits they need to actively support constructive help. Most enablers eventually shun the addict which leads to their crisis. In intervention, the enablers take a progressive stance to end their destructive support and create a network of constructive support.

In my way of thinking, even if unsuccessful it is obviously the most beneficial path.

First, the real problem is not with the addict, its with the enablers. The addict is sick, unable to clearly assess reality and in trouble. Behavioral change has to be easier and less traumatic with the enablers, they are rational and stable. Second, if you think about it, why would you support the destructive behavior of someone you care about, and that type of nurturing is intuitive, it takes a cold hard look to understand the consequences. Third, the only alternative to cut the addict loose when all the resources for any chance of helping are spent or exhausted. Better to try something that hardly helps than to do nothing at all.

So intervention really identifies the enablers, works on modifying the destructive tendencies of constructive people, and brings help to the addict prior to a traumatic crisis the addict may or may not survive.

Be advised. There has been a lot of study on intervention and they have learned a lot about it. It has a small chance of success and you can greatly improve the odds if you understand the requirements and procedure thoroughly. There is a lot of disagreement as well, such as if it should be planned and scheduled with the addict in advance. Professionals feel the success rate is small, like maybe 10% if carefully thought out, but still better than the alternatives.

I would advise becoming a self taught interventionist and putting the process together if you care about the person. You have to get all the enablers to sign on though, has to be unanimous or it will probably end up a waste of time. If you want more information just PM me, I have done numerous interventions and a few of them were successful, better than the 10% rate but then again I dont waste my time with the lost as professionals are required to do.

Best of luck, hope you dont give up. Every one brought back from the brink has to be good for the Kharma somewhere.

[dotcom]

Good advice all. The concensus is ... unless the person wants to stop ..... all but hopeless. Seen plenty of intervention on TV. Quite often it works. But the patient needs to be sober at the time of the intervention.

I know a lot about alcohol - not too much about crystal meth.

Prision is out of the question - the law won't allow it.

They might have lock down rehab but it will be expensive. As Sheryl has siad she needs a few days to clear her head & then she needs to decide if sobriety is what she wants.

You can lead a horse to water ...........

Good Luck

[garro]

I am sorry to disagree with many people here, but I feel that in the case of drugs like yaa baa it is sometimes necessary to intervene. Most of us addicts, who have escaped, did so because we had a moment of clarity when we wanted to stop and were able to seek help. The problem with meta-amphetamine is that many of those addicted do not get the chance to have any insight because their thought process is hindered even when they are not actually high. Waiting for their rock bottom sounds a very dangerous game to me. Sort of like waiting for a schzioprenic to hit rock bottom.

I think that western views on treatment are all very well, but considering their often poor outcomes it may be wise to not base all decisions on them. I think the drug yaa baa is a unique addiction and may need a different approach. I have seen with my own eyes yaa baa addicts who were put into treatment against there will, and they were clear from their addiction. I have also the vacant stares of those whose brains were destroyed because it was left too long.

Edited June 17, 2008 by garro

[jaideeguy]

'My thai gf has a sister hooked on amphetamine of some sort (not sure what the drug is exactly, but that one where u hold a spoon over a lighter)."

That sounds more like heroin, as I've seen yaabaa smoked on foil.

[garro]

'My thai gf has a sister hooked on amphetamine of some sort (not sure what the drug is exactly, but that one where u hold a spoon over a lighter)."

That sounds more like heroin, as I've seen yaabaa smoked on foil.

From what I've seen most people do use tin foil with a straw, but maybe a spoon would work (so long as they could get it hot enough to turn the drug to a smoke - considering how thin Thai spoons are I well believe this would be possible).

[geriatrickid]

Garro, the hitting rock bottom wasn't really a western approach per se, it's been one that arose from many years of trying everything that didn't work for many people. It's a strategy that requires one to sit back and watch a painful and often messy event unfold. BUT, you raise an important issue, some people respond to certain strategies better than others. As all patients are different, one has to take that into consideration when selecting a treatment option.

I can't offer anything better than what has already been said, except to ask the OP not to try and do an "isolation" on his own. Many long term users have underlying medical problems or can have withdrawl events that produce serious injury or death. A detox must be carried out in a place where there are experienced people that can respond accordingly. Besides, being in close proximity to an addict in withdrawal is not for the squeamish or those that can't handle people in pain. I lasted all of 1 day on the druggie ward. After cleaning up all manner of body fluids and products as well as dodging fists and the like I begged them to put me in the morgue, cleaning. How the orderlies and nurses do that job is beyond me. Once the process starts, you have to see it through. I reckon it's next to impossible for a parent or a close family member to be able to do it when they are the one dealing with the detainee.

[Shotime]

I am sorry to disagree with many people here, but I feel that in the case of drugs like yaa baa it is sometimes necessary to intervene. Most of us addicts, who have escaped, did so because we had a moment of clarity when we wanted to stop and were able to seek help. The problem with meta-amphetamine is that many of those addicted do not get the chance to have any insight because their thought process is hindered even when they are not actually high. Waiting for their rock bottom sounds a very dangerous game to me. Sort of like waiting for a schzioprenic to hit rock bottom.

I think that western views on treatment are all very well, but considering their often poor outcomes it may be wise to not base all decisions on them. I think the drug yaa baa is a unique addiction and may need a different approach. I have seen with my own eyes yaa baa addicts who were put into treatment against there will, and they were clear from their addiction. I have also the vacant stares of those whose brains were destroyed because it was left too long.

I don't necessarily disagree that there is little hope for yaa bah users, but I don't believe moments of clarity or bottoms (other than prison or death) are impossible for any type of addict. I do not believe in interventions as it's more a reality TV show (meaning not real). Changes in the way your brain provides it's own "drugs" because of the prolonged use of any drug, is permanent. There may be medications available to help compensate, but, even then, it still remains the persons choice. Unfortunately. Sometimes the medication they do give causes those vacant stares. Miracles do happen. Not often, but sometimes.

[girlx]

http://www.thamkrabok.org/

is there a Thai version of a website for wat thamkrabok???

[Ulysses G.]

2.) chain her to a tree in Isaan... no, but seriously, isolate her ourselves if the prisons won't.

If you "isolate" her from drugs against her will she will probably think of them as something that is her right to indulge in and you as the evil authority figure that is trying to ruin her life. She has to realize on her own that hard drugs take awy from one's life, rather than adding to it.

I have little doubt that she will lie and tell you anything you want to hear until she can escape back to the drug world again.

[garro]

http://www.thamkrabok.org/

is there a Thai version of a website for wat thamkrabok???

Unfortunately I don't think there is but if you google วัดถ้ำกระบอก you will get plenty of hits in Thai.

The temple is very well know among the Thai population as it is often featured in movies and songs.

[robblok]

Is yabaa so much different from XTC ? In Holland i have seen tons of ppl use XTC without getting into serious problems. It is not physically addictive and can be controlled reasonably wel. I did it a while myself when i was younger. I did not like the after effects so i stopped.

But i do know that after you stopped for a while you started to improve a lot, (the brain wasnt foggy anymore and the moodswings went away). This happend usually in a few days and after a week you were 100% back. So if yabaa is simular forced withdrawl could work. XTC worked on the serotone levels in the brain, not sure if it is the case with yabaa too.

The only thing is there will always be some mental addiction afterwards but that should not be too hard to overcome unless you get in bad situations like loads of stress, family problems ect.

[girlx]

Lots of info on yaba (methamphetamines): Erowid

also some on ecstacy: MDMA

[robblok]

Lots of info on yaba (methamphetamines): Erowid

also some on ecstacy: MDMA

Then it is partly the same, most xtc tables i came across when younger contained MDMA and speed. Pure MDMA was of course the best but mostly it contained both. While i now reed the part about the symptoms of toothgrinding. I can say yes there usually was speed in the xtc tables.

So you can get someone off it forced. But after that there must be the will not to take it again.

[geriatrickid]

One of the big problems with these products is that they are usually adulterated with chemicals which are harmful. This is why I harp on the need to do detox under medical surveillance. Long time users don't just present with a drug addiction but come in with vital organ damage due to the chronic ingestion of volatile organic compounds and heavy metals meaning there is often serious underlying kidney, lung and liver damage. People will freak out when they find out that lead solder was used to seal their water pipes resulting in a bit of contamination, but turn a blind eye to the amount of lead, arsenic, cadmium etc. that leaches into the product from the pots, vats and tubes when meth is cooked.

I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but I am amazed by some people that will put a great deal of effort in to shopping for organic and natural food stuff but throw the such concern to the side when it comes to "recreational" drugs. There isn't a meth manufacturers council that promotes quality control and no one is going around checking product quality. The consumer protection groups aren't keeping an eye out for shoddy products the way they will do for toys etc.

[dotcom]

That Wat looks like a pretty good deal. a) They are experts at treating addiction & b.) They speak the local language.

Getting people to accept that addiction is a disease is 1/2 the battle.

[robblok]

One of the big problems with these products is that they are usually adulterated with chemicals which are harmful. This is why I harp on the need to do detox under medical surveillance. Long time users don't just present with a drug addiction but come in with vital organ damage due to the chronic ingestion of volatile organic compounds and heavy metals meaning there is often serious underlying kidney, lung and liver damage. People will freak out when they find out that lead solder was used to seal their water pipes resulting in a bit of contamination, but turn a blind eye to the amount of lead, arsenic, cadmium etc. that leaches into the product from the pots, vats and tubes when meth is cooked.

I don't want to go off on a tangent here, but I am amazed by some people that will put a great deal of effort in to shopping for organic and natural food stuff but throw the such concern to the side when it comes to "recreational" drugs. There isn't a meth manufacturers council that promotes quality control and no one is going around checking product quality. The consumer protection groups aren't keeping an eye out for shoddy products the way they will do for toys etc.

At the time i did not care much. Used it once a month or maybe twice a month. It was for a half year period. Now i dont do drugs (would never ever do drugs in this country). It all depends how serious an user ws. if you use stuff like that on a dayly base and a lot of it im sure then you need to detox unders medical surveillance.

Now i care about what i eat (not that im looking for organic stuff) its all about fases in ones life. When i was young i never ever thought about risks. I am now in my 30ies and do think about risks. Things just change during a lifetime.