Money Lost On A Deal That Never Was...

[Priceless]

whenever you buy property of any sort in another country, you are always taking the risk of your property being confiscated by the local government whomever they might be.

In particular when you choose to do it in a country where it is explicitly illegal for a foreigner to own land. Doing it through the use of 49% ownership of a company is just a way to circumvent the lawmakers' intention. Getting on the wrong side of the law unfortunately means that you can't expect to be protected by the law, if and when you need it.

I am not putting any moral aspects on this, I'm just saying that you can't have it both ways

/ Priceless

[Chang_paarp]

Have someone independant look at the share structure. For a long time "preferential" shares were issued to some shareholders who invested in companies, these shares have greater voting rights than regular shares, so while you may be a 20% shareholder you may have greater voting rights. (I might ask why you ended up with 20% while your partner had 29% for the same investment, looking to the future?)

Before the profits of doom chime in these setups were legal then and as the revised Foreign Business Act has not been passed they are still legal.

Another thing to look at is who is the MD, who are the directors of this company? If your friend is the MD and the articles of association state he can make decisions that need only his signature and the company chop (stamp), he may have been in his legal right to pursue this "investment".

You have a couple of options after checking this out;

If the shareholder overstepped their authority, make a criminal complaint for fraud. Chances of recovery of the funds? Very small.

Privately purchase the chanote from the loan shark. Transfer to 3rd party. Risky.

Sell/give you shares to the other shareholders and walk.

In any case get real legal advice, not just our opinions.

Good luck.

[BusyBee123]

I haven't read all the replies but would like to add my 2 pennies worth on a business front. First of all has the loan of the land been registered in the company minutes? I find it hard to believe a loan company has lent 270k to your friend without the correct papers and legals incurred in such a transaction and to get that transaction authorised it would need the signatures of the directors of the company...... have you actually been to the porn place to ask how the deal was done as this will give you a clear indication as to just what has gone on

[LivinLOS]

You definitely can't trust you partner or the person he claims he was doing business with if that person actually exists.

Why not find someone else to join with you who can buy out your partner's position by paying off that pawn broker.

Excellent suggestion. Then your partner gets his just desserts. There never was a dime of profit in the scheme for you. Selfish bastard. Some Nome Nah (your mate).

Or- if you have the cash, you buy him out for 270,000 (not 450,000) to the pawnbroker, and take control of his share, making you the 49% foreign owner.

Exactly..

hes done the sneaky and dumb thing.. Hes resigned to losing it all.. Why should you save his ass and get him a get out of jail free card. He did the dirty on you and now your going to save him from any loss ??? No wonder hes not very motivated to solving the issue, niether would I be (need any more partners ??).

You pay off the loan shark and you own his share. Simple. He cheated, gambled and lost.. your not there to pick up his tab.

[Maigo6]

The only reasonable ammount of money that I have ever been cheated out of whilst in Thailand was by a friend ( Farang ).

Many after a prolonged period in Thailand will be on the bones of their azz and will not hesitate to rip off a fellow Farang.

Was there ever a Thai involved, or did you, like countless other Farangs in Thailand get ripped off by a fellow Farang ?

If the guy needed to pawn land for such a small ammount, it says a lot about his personal financial situation don't it ?

I reckon the Farang partner screwed you over Jim, as happened also to me many moons ago.

Lot of desperate Farangs in Thailand who will steal the eye out of your head if you're not looking.

[dotcom]

..., I was interested in knowing if there was anyway that we could put pressure on the fraudulent Thai guy in order to get the money back. After having lived here for 4 years now and having read countless posts on TV during that period, I perhaps should have realised that there was no way that was going to happen.

"Never invest more than you can afford to lose" is very apt. If this loss is permanent, i.e. the land and my 450k Bhat goes up in smoke, I shan't be ruined and shall simply let the emotional baggage go and hence not become a bitter a twisted anti-Thai TV ranter that currently seem to overpopulate this forum.

Thanks once more for your postings, please feel free to add anything else to this section.

James

I think your perspective is wrong. The fraud was your good falang mate pawnshopping the land without telling/asking you first. Doesn't make a toss what he did with the money after that.

The sooner you come to grips with who perpetrated the "fraud" the sooner you can resolve it.

[siamamerican]

The only reasonable ammount of money that I have ever been cheated out of whilst in Thailand was by a friend ( Farang ).

Many after a prolonged period in Thailand will be on the bones of their azz and will not hesitate to rip off a fellow Farang.

Was there ever a Thai involved, or did you, like countless other Farangs in Thailand get ripped off by a fellow Farang ?

If the guy needed to pawn land for such a small ammount, it says a lot about his personal financial situation don't it ?

I reckon the Farang partner screwed you over Jim, as happened also to me many moons ago.

Lot of desperate Farangs in Thailand who will steal the eye out of your head if you're not looking.

Always sticking up for the Thais. I appreciate your contrarian posts, but I think your a little off on this one. I have never been taken for any substantial money by a farang, nor know anyone that has been. I'm sure it happens, but I think it is a rarity.

I've met many farangs that are desperate for love and others that are socially inept. Thailand attracts these types in droves and they are usually not the best con men. Most farangs are here to enjoy themselves and have no intention on scamming fellow farangs. Thais are at advantage because they understand the system and also grossly outnumber farangs. The majority earn an honest living and a small minority prey on desperate or irrational farangs.

I would bet most cases of farangs ripping off fellow farangs involves personal loans. We all have known a farang that needed some cash and I've even lent some money to a desperate acquaintance. I did it knowing I probably wouldn't get paid back.

[robblok]

The only reasonable ammount of money that I have ever been cheated out of whilst in Thailand was by a friend ( Farang ).

Many after a prolonged period in Thailand will be on the bones of their azz and will not hesitate to rip off a fellow Farang.

Was there ever a Thai involved, or did you, like countless other Farangs in Thailand get ripped off by a fellow Farang ?

If the guy needed to pawn land for such a small ammount, it says a lot about his personal financial situation don't it ?

I reckon the Farang partner screwed you over Jim, as happened also to me many moons ago.

Lot of desperate Farangs in Thailand who will steal the eye out of your head if you're not looking.

And there are even more thais who will rob you blind. They even have more chances to do so. So does that make all farang or all thai bad. You just have to choose your friends wisely and be damm carefull with loaning money.

[appleman]

I had a similar situation where I gave a bunch of money to someone who did not carry out our agreed plan. I had two things in my favor. 1. This person was a government employee and 2. We had documented proof (bank statements) that we had given him the money.

We got a lawyer and had him approach our "partner" and simply said that if the money wasn't returned then we would file charges and report this action to his government superior.

I don't know if we had a chance of winning the suit but since this person wanted to keep his job (and the promotions he was expecting) and not lose face with all his co-workers, he returned our money. The lawyer's cost was about 10% of the returned money.

Good luck

[lennart2000]

Sorry to be ripped off. Unfotunately the last sucker hasn't been born

[roygsd]

To the OP:

Your partner took a loan on your plot of land, it is irrelevant what he wants to use the money for or what separate deals he's into.

In a normal circumstance, you could take the matter to civil court to impose your partner to pay back the loan on your land, therefore releasing your property rights back to you, being able to sell etc.

51% of the company directors are Thai people as required by Thai law, but illegally only there on paper as a front for the purpose that 2 farangs may solely have control on a plot of land, run a company and do business in Thailand.

If this matter is taken to court, the judge will issue an order that the sleeping Thai partners will have to show statements that prove they financially contributed their equal shares for the land purchase and any projects connected with that land.

The fact is that this whole venture was illegal in the first place and you quote your illegal activities with total indifference. To be quite honest, you and your partner deserve each other. You make a mockery of the system and create difficulties for the legitimate Western residents and business people living here.

As they say about people like you: give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Hope that sooner or later someone will report you to Immigration.

Mmmmmmmm,

[roygsd]

What would not happen?

A farang invests with Thai business partners, Thai business partners have control of company, Thai business partners do as they please with your capital and it is completly legal because they have 51% control.

What i fail to understand is that foreigners can bring a huge chunk of cash to Thailand invest in business that pay taxes, provide jobs and boost the economy yet they can not maitain control of the company.

If I am not mistaken only US citizens have an exemption where by they can maintain control of the company.

My point is that under this system they force people who see business oportunities into situations they would never agree to in another country.

I may be in error but I understand that the period set in the "agreement" that the usa forced on the Thai government at the end of the 2nd WW has now expired,

Roy gsd

[indiefan]

Hi Jim. I know nothing about Thailand or the laws here, but I'm going to give you solid advice because those two previous facts just don't matter. It does not matter which country you're in because this is how things work and its universal.

You are not a unique snowflake. Theres nothing special about your situation and very little thats complicated. What is different is that you're not used to being scammed and are not overly familiar with these situations and would not be unless you were a lawyer who specialized in them. Lawyers who do specialize in these situations deal with them every single day, and are as familiar with what has happened as you are with brushing your teeth. Bad deals go down every minute in every country in the world and resolving those issues creates a market for law types to earn a good living off.

So, your only wise solution is to find a lawyer who knows his stuff and speaks great english so he can educate you on what your position is and what your options are and advise you which option to take. A consultation will cost you X ammount, but a few hours going over things will be very low risk compared to some of what you stand to lose if you go into some of the things you've mentioned without buying solid advice from someone who's competent. Even the questions you ask your partner might weaken your position legally and or strategically. If this goes to court, do you really want to know the details of what he did? Knowing that may implicate you in something more.

So, get a lawyer, let him do his job and educate you with his experience and knowledge from the other 10000 farangs he's helped in your position, get as much of your money back and get out of this business relationship. You seem like a nice guy and this is exactly why you need to pay a lawyer slime ball to do this dirty job for you. Simple as that, and good luck.

[sangfroid]

Attn. Farangs YOU WILL NEVER OWN LAND IN THAILAND AND YOU WILL NEVER BE A CITIZEN OF THAILAND.

This should be on the top of every arrival card.

Along with

"Nothing in Thailand is ever what it seems to be......... NOTHING!!"

[thaibkk]

As long as farang for whatever protectionist reason cannot buy land (thai children sing every they their song that thailand belongs to thai only ... )or own 100% of their own company they will always be screwed in the worst way

if not by shade thai 51% shareholders, than maybe be their lovely family in law...

the whole thing ... as i red a previous post...64 year old dad with 4 year old daughter... thailand really want old farang with money to marry and make children .. the way I see it = a win win situation .... for the thai only ... old man dies (too fat, too much sex for his age ?) and the still young thai women and offspring are instantly rich thais ...

[imaneggspurt]

Does anyone know anybody that has lent money to a thai and had it back ?

[roygsd]

The fact is that this whole venture was illegal in the first place and you quote your illegal activities with total indifference. To be quite honest, you and your partner deserve each other. You make a mockery of the system and create difficulties for the legitimate Western residents and business people living here.

As they say about people like you: give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Hope that sooner or later someone will report you to Immigration.

Thanks for your opinion, although I do think that your comments about what you hope occurs in my future are slightly over the top. We bought the land together a few years with the hope to build some good quality, energy effecient housing on it...that is all.

The company already existed before (set up over 6 years ago by my partner and his Thai friends/relatives) the government turned their attention to ensuring that firms run by farang with 'ficticious/sleeper' Thai partners weren't grabbing loads of land at the expense of the Thais. In retrospect, my comments about writing up false company minutes was a little stupid. However, I thought about this only because the firm's accountant, a registered Thai financial accountant in Bangkok, has asked me to do very similar things in past for a host of reasons... so I assumed that it would be no big deal. It is clear that some of you think otherwise...

As Pepe has said, its all just small fry in the grand scheme of things. However, I was interested in knowing if there was anyway that we could put pressure on the fraudulent Thai guy in order to get the money back. After having lived here for 4 years now and having read countless posts on TV during that period, I perhaps should have realised that there was no way that was going to happen.

"Never invest more than you can afford to lose" is very apt. If this loss is permanent, i.e. the land and my 450k Bhat goes up in smoke, I shan't be ruined and shall simply let the emotional baggage go and hence not become a bitter a twisted anti-Thai TV ranter that currently seem to overpopulate this forum.

Thanks once more for your postings, please feel free to add anything else to this section.

James

Hi James,

dont worry about the negatives as I call them, we all live and learn, it isnt just in thailand, it aint over yet, get what you can

as quick as you can, who knows you might end up getting the company to tranfer the land to yourself for the amount outstanding on the loan, not likely but sometimes people who think they are so sharp end up cutting theselves.

Reading between the lines I have no doubt that this guy has been quite loose lipped about some of his other interests since you first met him, if only build up your confience in him.

I suspect he has collected many Skeletons in his cuboard in the 14 year she has been in Thailand, if he thinks that you have the goods on him and that may bring him to the attention of the various authorities its a fair bet he will prefer to buy you off for as little as he can rather than run the risk of giving you nothing which might result in major problems with the thai authorities which may even see him kicked out of the country.

You might get the better of him yet but proceed with caution, and use the head not the heart, he appears to think he is holding all the cards, you on the other hand have the time and the reason to <deleted> him up goodstyle if you have a mind to do it I am sure.

Give a bit of thought before you loose your rag with him, never show him your hand, he wants and needs to know what you are going to do, keep him on the boil.

best of luck

roy gsd

Roy gsd

[Maigo6]

I would bet most cases of farangs ripping off fellow farangs involves personal loans. We all have known a farang that needed some cash and I've even lent some money to a desperate acquaintance. I did it knowing I probably wouldn't get paid back.

I would say you're right on the personal loan issue. as I know from my own experience. Also there are numerous Land deals and property deals where Farangs have ripped off other Farangs big time, I know many that have been ripped off in Thailand by people they thought they could trust, albeit, they didn't have much of a clue to start with.

It just seems so convenient for the Farang to blame a Thai person, thinking the other Farang involved will just accept it as the norm.

It's the ' Farang in Thailand ' being exploited syndrome, the ' Them against us ' attitude, when in fact one has to take great care not to get scammed by some Farang who's on the bones of his azz and will do anything not to have to leave Thailand. This includes ripping off his fellow Farang.

You say you have never met a good Farang con man in Thailand.... I must assume that you never lived in Thailand for any considerable ammount of time.........

My money's on the Farang partner running out of money and screwing his mate over.

This Is Thailand, desperate Farangs do desperate things, the jails are full of Farangs that have run out of money and tried running drugs througfh the airport and ended up with a life sentence, you think ripping off a fellow Farang don't happen, you gotta be joking.

People on here are too quick to blame the Thai's for anything that happens to them, when in fact the real blame lies much closer to home in many cases.

In Farangland Farangs <deleted> over other Farangs every day, so why would one expect it to be different here ?

Edited June 22, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

Does anyone know anybody that has lent money to a thai and had it back ?

Yes I do.

Me.

And do I know people that have lent money to Farangs and never got it back?

Yes I do.

Me.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

Always sticking up for the Thais. I appreciate your contrarian posts, but I think your a little off on this one. I have never been taken for any substantial money by a farang, nor know anyone that has been.

So it don't happen ?

[Paul MBMG]

Have someone independant look at the share structure. For a long time "preferential" shares were issued to some shareholders who invested in companies, these shares have greater voting rights than regular shares, so while you may be a 20% shareholder you may have greater voting rights. (I might ask why you ended up with 20% while your partner had 29% for the same investment, looking to the future?)

Before the profits of doom chime in these setups were legal then and as the revised Foreign Business Act has not been passed they are still legal.

Another thing to look at is who is the MD, who are the directors of this company? If your friend is the MD and the articles of association state he can make decisions that need only his signature and the company chop (stamp), he may have been in his legal right to pursue this "investment".

You have a couple of options after checking this out;

If the shareholder overstepped their authority, make a criminal complaint for fraud. Chances of recovery of the funds? Very small.

Privately purchase the chanote from the loan shark. Transfer to 3rd party. Risky.

Sell/give you shares to the other shareholders and walk.

In any case get real legal advice, not just our opinions.

Good luck.

James, I would sya that Chang Paarp's post is the most sensible here.

Without a lot more information -

1) It's impossible to say whether this ventuire was legal or illegal

2) It's impossible to say whether there has been any wrongdoing by the partner

3) It's impossible to say what would constitute a good course of action next without taking advice

And to say that farangs can't legally acquire land is just plain wrong - there are a wide variety of legal methods available.

IMHO there's way too much hastiness in jumping to conclusions

[Maigo6]

Attn. Farangs YOU WILL NEVER OWN LAND IN THAILAND AND YOU WILL NEVER BE A CITIZEN OF THAILAND.

This should be on the top of every arrival card.

Along with

"Nothing in Thailand is ever what it seems to be......... NOTHING!!"

Does that also include your own personal situation in Thailand, or is your situation different ?

[Maigo6]

James, I would sya that Chang Paarp's post is the most sensible here.

Paul, there ain't a lot of competition is there !

[Maigo6]

to say that farangs can't legally acquire land is just plain wrong - there are a wide variety of legal methods available.

Paul, maybe you can list the wide variety of ways a Farang can legally own Land in Thailand, cos this is a constant bugbear to many Farang that come to Thailand and are always whinging and whining that they cannot own land, and I ain't come across a way of legally owning land either.

Put our minds at ease.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Maigo6

[khunmarc]

[ring all other options before - I know what the market is like and doubt I could sell the land at this time,

Any advice is appreciated,

hire a hit man????LOL

[Paul MBMG]

to say that farangs can't legally acquire land is just plain wrong - there are a wide variety of legal methods available.

Paul, maybe you can list the wide variety of ways a Farang can legally own Land in Thailand, cos this is a constant bugbear to many Farang that come to Thailand and are always whinging and whining that they cannot own land, and I ain't come across a way of legally owning land either.

Put our minds at ease.

very quickly and from memory -

Directors of BOI approved companies can acquire residential land - the BoI Cos themselves can own certain land even if they're foreign owned

Investors who bring THB 40 Mn baht into Thailand can acquire land

Listed synidcated land owning companies are eligible investments by foreigners

Treaty of Amity Companies can own land

Foreigners can have 49% ownership of land owning companies set up in a way that is reliable and robust

The Thai longstay programme provides ownership benefits (wouldn't be my personal favourite)

My colleagues at Hamptons Mortgages offer lease purchase schemes

Foreigners can inherit land

and (somewhat theoretically) you could buy a Thai bank and be entitled to retain any property interests that it has

I'm sure that I've missed one or 2....

You can of course register a 30 year lease and subject to conditions you may be eligible to extend that in 30 years time for up to a further 30 years

[Paul MBMG]

James, I would sya that Chang Paarp's post is the most sensible here.

Paul, there ain't a lot of competition is there !

you might think that - I couldn't possibly comment

[andyc2006]

I've read just enough of the topic to conclude that it's pure chance that the OP lost some of his money.

The odds were that he would have lost it all, and it's only a matter of time before he does.

I'd suggest to the OP that next time he wants to go into business, he does it with a beautiful woman, so that he at least has fond memories once he's been fleeced.

[klikster]

very quickly and from memory -

Directors of BOI approved companies can acquire residential land - the BoI Cos themselves can own certain land even if they're foreign owned

Investors who bring THB 40 Mn baht into Thailand can acquire land

Listed synidcated land owning companies are eligible investments by foreigners

I notice that you use "acquire" rather than "own". Just because you buy something doesn't mean you own it. Look up the legal definition of ownership. It has to do with legal use and disposition as and when one sees fit .. in perpetuity

Re: BOI promoted companies don't "own" the land in a permanent legal context. If the company is ever dissolved or loses their promotional privileges they have to sell any real property to a Thai or Thai company.

Investment is not ownership.

Treaty of Amity Companies can own land

I don't think so

Foreigners can have 49% ownership of land owning companies set up in a way that is reliable and robust

49% is not ownership, it's participation in the company. You own shares, not "real property".

The Thai longstay programme provides ownership benefits (wouldn't be my personal favourite)

Doesn't meet the legal definition of "ownership"

My colleagues at Hamptons Mortgages offer lease purchase schemes

Which means?

Foreigners can inherit land

That "inheritance" may actually be a defacto usufruct .. as such, "inheritance" does not entitle you to actual "ownership".

and (somewhat theoretically) you could buy a Thai bank and be entitled to retain any property interests that it has

Are you sure about that .. you don't sound very sure. If a Thai company buys the bank, you are probably correct, but you're back in the "minority position" again. Theory is great in theory, but ..

I'm sure that I've missed one or 2....

And I'm sure that none will pass the test of "legal ownership"

You can of course register a 30 year lease and subject to conditions you may be eligible to extend that in 30 years time for up to a further 30 years

Which has nothing to do with ownership.

What Thai law always comes back to is that one Thai law/regulation/rule/et.al cannot contradict another Thai law. Look up the Alien Property Act.

[siamamerican]

I would bet most cases of farangs ripping off fellow farangs involves personal loans. We all have known a farang that needed some cash and I've even lent some money to a desperate acquaintance. I did it knowing I probably wouldn't get paid back.

I would say you're right on the personal loan issue. as I know from my own experience. Also there are numerous Land deals and property deals where Farangs have ripped off other Farangs big time, I know many that have been ripped off in Thailand by people they thought they could trust, albeit, they didn't have much of a clue to start with.

It just seems so convenient for the Farang to blame a Thai person, thinking the other Farang involved will just accept it as the norm.

It's the ' Farang in Thailand ' being exploited syndrome, the ' Them against us ' attitude, when in fact one has to take great care not to get scammed by some Farang who's on the bones of his azz and will do anything not to have to leave Thailand. This includes ripping off his fellow Farang.

You say you have never met a good Farang con man in Thailand.... I must assume that you never lived in Thailand for any considerable ammount of time.........

My money's on the Farang partner running out of money and screwing his mate over.

This Is Thailand, desperate Farangs do desperate things, the jails are full of Farangs that have run out of money and tried running drugs througfh the airport and ended up with a life sentence, you think ripping off a fellow Farang don't happen, you gotta be joking.

People on here are too quick to blame the Thai's for anything that happens to them, when in fact the real blame lies much closer to home in many cases.

In Farangland Farangs <deleted> over other Farangs every day, so why would one expect it to be different here ?

I lived in Thailand for 4 years and wasn't even approached by Farang that wanted to rip me off. The only exception being personal loans that were 20-40k bt if I remember correctly. The person I lent the money to always paid me back, but asked for more the next time. Eventually I told him no and never heard from him again. He had a gambling problem and owed money to some Thais.

I was ripped off by the Thai police. I was involved in an accident on my mtn bike. The $3,500 bike was taken from the police storage unit. Eventually after getting a lawyer, I was compensated for my loss. The lawyer refused my money, because she was so disgusted with what happenned. She was an honest Thai and most are.

I'm a bit of a loner, so maybe I don't put myself in the position to be appraoched by farang con men. My net worth back then was barely possitive and this would have made any attempt to rip me off pointless. As I mentioned before, I'm sure it happens. By the way, Thais <deleted> over Thais also.

Edited June 23, 2008 by siamamerican