Divorce

[silapin]

I am about to ask my Thai husband (I'm a Brit) for a divorce. He probably won't agree (its not the first time I've asked) and I will go ahead anyway.

Although I will tsee a lawyer soon, I would like to know if I move out, can I take the children with me? Will this jeopardise any future custody requests?

Many thanks for any help/experiences.

[Boo]

IMO as the mother you can do what you like as there is no abduction by parent law in thailand, something a UK friend found out when her thai husband took her son & placed him with relatives. Took her several years to get him back.

And can't see why it would affect future custidy as long as husband knows where they are & can have reasonable access. It is the most natural & common thing in the world for the kids to go with the mother when mariage disolves & until issues are resolved.

But as always, check this out with a lawyer first. Good luck with it all.

[silapin]

Thank you, Boo.

I am afraid my just taking them will cause a huge fight between us but I don't want to stay in the house and I don't think he will agree to move out.

Any other stories/tips to share?

[Briggsy]

Do the children have British passports?

Do you intend to stay in Thailand?

Divorce settlements in the UK are much more generous to women than Thai divorce settlements.

[silapin]

Yes - they do have UK passports (in addition to their Thai ones).

I intend (certainly for the forseeble future) to stay in Thailand as I think that's in the best interests of the children and will facilitate contact/relationship with their father.

I work and can support the children etc.

We were married in Thailand.

Thanks for any help/advice!

[silapin]

I have now seen a lawyer. It seems that unless husband agrees to divorce (very unlikely) that we cannot get divorced as there are 'no grounds'. It seems that separation/abandonment can only lead to the abandoned person filing divorce not the 'abandoner'. There is no ground equivalent to 'irretrievable breakdown'.

I am rather shocked and upset as I had not understood this correctly before.

Hmmmm....

[Boo]

That really doesn't sound right. I understood that once seperated for more than 3 years then you can apply for divorce on grounds of being seperated for a set time. This is the same in UK, if one party doesnt want a divorce then a set time must pass before divorce proceedings can go ahead.

Contact the site sponser issan lawyer if only to speak with the owner sebastian (french/canadian) to clarify this to you in english.

Really really doen's t sound right to me as many people get divorcec when one party isn't really wanting it.

[silapin]

Thanks again, Boo. Its difficult to understand certainly.

Yes - I will get a 'second opinion' - good idea.

He said that the separation thing only applied to an agreed separation - ie the other party agrees to it and subsequently to the divorce... btw He is a well-known Bangkok lawyer who spoke great English.

[Farma]

Get a second opinion.

Uncontested Umphur divorce is quick, easy and cheap if both agree.

After 3 years separation if either party won’t agree to divorce you can go through a long expensive contested divorce in the courts.

[Boo]

Farma has explained it much better than I did.

Another thing to consider that only comes into my head becuase if your situation & where you are (sadly):

It is possible this lawyer has other "issues" with regards to a foreign women divorcing a thai man, esp. as kids are involved & may be trying to "put you off". Get a 2nd opinion & good luck.

But regardless, even if you don't divorce straight away, you can leave anytime you like & you can take the kids with you, just go to court & get a custody & visitation agrement put in place. There is nothing your husband can legally do to make you stay.

[Mario2008]

The sunbelt webpage shows that the grounds for divorce are:

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Thailand-Divorce.php

Section 1516: GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE:

1/. Husband has given maintenance to or honoured such other woman as his wife, or the wife has committed adultery, the other may claim for divorce.

2/. One spouse is guilty of misconduct, criminal or otherwise.

3/. One spouse has harmed the other via torture or mental circumstances.

4/. One spouse has deserted the other for over 1 year. Either party lives apart for 3 years.

5/. One or the other partner has disappeared for 3 years.

6/. Lack of marital support.

7/. One spouse insane for more than 3 years & its incurable.

8/. One partner has broken the bond of good behaviour.

9/. Incurable disease that may affect the other.

10/. Physical disadvantage permanently unable to cohabit as husband & wife.

[ThaiLawOnline]

I don't think anybody sent me a message but there are 2 ways to divorce in Thailand. I will not talk about VOIDING a marriage and the death of one spouse!!!!!!!!! (section 1501 and following) But divorce in Thailand can be made by either:

A ) by mutual consent. You make an agreement and register it at the amphur. That's easy, everybody know what they will have. Think about custody of the children, property, alimony, etc. Cheap, easy.

B ) Going to Court. Your lawyer was right, you must have A GROUND to divorce. There are 10 grounds, and if you are demanding divorce, you have the burden of proof (for example, adultery, mental or physical cruelty, 3 years of separation, 1 year of desertion, etc.)

You have the FULL section about marriage and divorce from the civil code on our website, look under INFO, FAMILY LAW (on the left) and click the marriage section of the civil code. Section 1516 is for the grounds to divorce. Remember that beside children, on important thing is the separation of asset. You keep your own property (Sin Suan Tua - around section 1471) and you divide the common property (Sin Somros - around 1474).

I am writing an article about divorcing in Thailand at the moment, with references to several countries, international law, etc. but it won't be ready before 2 weeks... Best options is ALWAYS to agree. Going to Court is always a risk, involves more cost, but it is sometimes unavoidable.

Good luck.

Sebastian

PS: Verify with your embassy what are the condition that a divorce in Thailand is recognized or not by the laws of your countries. It's never the same. You might need some translation, legalization, proof that one party was resident of Thailand, etc. It's really complicated...

[Farma]

Issanlawyers

You mention the lawyer was right in saying she must have grounds for divorce

Silapin mentions

"He said that the separation thing only applied to an agreed separation - ie the other party agrees to it and subsequently to the divorce."

and

"It seems that separation/abandonment can only lead to the abandoned person filing divorce not the 'abandoner'."

Has she understood the legal advice correctly. i.e. 1. It must be an agreed separation and 2. only the abandoned person can file for divorce.

What is your opinion on those statements?

[silapin]

Well, I'm still stuck.

My husband won't agree and pushing it further is proving a balancing act between the the family's long term needs (divorce) and the ability to cope in the short term. He can't cope with the idea of the family separating at all - he just can't face that possibility.

Its a completely dead marriage but that doesn't bother him - he can cope with that.

Interested to hear other experiences/advice.

[thaitang]

my intention is not to hijack the thread, but i found this thread while looking for advice on divorcing my thai wife.

we are not quite at the point where divorce is our only option but we seem to be headed that way. my question is, would my wife be able to start divorce proceedings in canada even if she doesn't have a visa to enter canada. i mean could she hire a lwyer in canada to represent her & initiate a divorce?

obviously if we have to slog down that road, i would much rather prefer to have the divorce done in thailand (we were married in thailand btw).

thanks for the replies in advance.

[torrenova]

As someone who was married in one country and divorced in another then I would think that the OP could divorce the husband in the UK which would presumably be recognised as valid in Thailand just as marriages are recognised.

If that is not an option then I advise to have the date of any separation registered so that the 3 year clock starts ticking.

[sylvafern]

Issanlawyers

You mention the lawyer was right in saying she must have grounds for divorce

Silapin mentions

"He said that the separation thing only applied to an agreed separation - ie the other party agrees to it and subsequently to the divorce."

and

"It seems that separation/abandonment can only lead to the abandoned person filing divorce not the 'abandoner'."

Has she understood the legal advice correctly. i.e. 1. It must be an agreed separation and 2. only the abandoned person can file for divorce.

What is your opinion on those statements?

I think that this is quite possibly correct. My Thai friend wants to divorce her Thai husband but he won't agree to it and he refuses to move out of the house so they can start the 3 years (although she thought it was 2) of separation. With 3 children and on a low income salary she can't afford to move herself. He hasn't done anything bad is just a lazy bugger who plays computer games all day and acts like a forth child so she's stuck with him until he also decides and agrees to the divorce. Doesn't seem fair but she has no other choice at the moment.

[hellohello]

Dear Silipin, hope I'm not out of line here.... but, could you and your kids move out yourself? I'm thinking he does not want the divorce coz of losing face and perhaps he does not believe you are really serious? If you moved out first, and the word was out that you were separated, after things calmed down and it was accepted that your were really finished, he might agree to going to the amphur in the future. Time is always a healing factor.

A english friend of mine just left her thai husband- she had to move across the county with their kid, as her husband didn't, wouldn't divorce her. Now that he has accepted it is over he will grant her a divorce at the amphur. From what I've seen and heard from my friend; Losing a farang = losing face.

good luck

Edited August 22, 2008 by hellohello

[silapin]

Dear HelloHello,

Thanks - your comments ring true for me. I had a plan to move out at one point, but wanted to gain the cooperation first for the sake of the kids. It would be really terrible if he took out his frustration on the kids and I wanted to avoid them seeing any hostility...

The losing face thing in this situation is a big factor for him I think...he just can't conceive the notion that we would all be better without and that life moves on.

Advice gratefully listened to!

Silapin

[Boo]

Silapin, I speak as a child who's parents stayed together for several years unhappily for "the sake of the children".

My father moved out of the house when I was 8 (after 16 years of marraige) & I have to sadly say that the day he left was one of the happiest days in our home for a long time. The tension was was just too immense to live with, with everyone walking on egg shells & my parents snapping at each other all the time. Kids aren't stupid & it is imo very damaging for them to live in such a false & negative environment.

For me it was better that he left, so if it really is unrepairable then you shoudl think about finding a newplace with the kids & then they can have a decent relationship with their father away from the tension, rather than to force them to live in it. Just my own opinion, as someone who grew up with the same sort of situation.

My father passed away in March & even though we had not lived together as father & daughter for 25 years we thankfully had a good if somewhat unconventional relationship (nothing to do with his leaving btw just his style ) until the end. I miss him greatly.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Silapin, I speak as a child who's parents stayed together for several years unhappily for "the sake of the children".

My father moved out of the house when I was 8 (after 16 years of marraige) & I have to sadly say that the day he left was one of the happiest days in our home for a long time. The tension was was just too immense to live with, with everyone walking on egg shells & my parents snapping at each other all the time. Kids aren't stupid & it is imo very damaging for them to live in such a false & negative environment.

For me it was better that he left, so if it really is unrepairable then you shoudl think about finding a newplace with the kids & then they can have a decent relationship with their father away from the tension, rather than to force them to live in it. Just my own opinion, as someone who grew up with the same sort of situation.

My father passed away in March & even though we had not lived together as father & daughter for 25 years we thankfully had a good if somewhat unconventional relationship (nothing to do with his leaving btw just his style ) until the end. I miss him greatly.

Nicely put Boo. Welcome back.

[silapin]

Thank you Boo. I also had a very similar experience with my parents and agree.

However I do worry about a few things: the initial turmoil and horribleness which could be rather unpleasant; the silly games he could play putting the kids in the middle and using them to get at me, or emotional blackmail-type stuff; male rolemodels - I have 2 boys; loneliness.

Having spoken to him about divorce I was taken by surprise at his total avoidance of reality and unwillingness to see any other reality than the one he wanted to 'see'. He would be incredibly bitter, insecure, lost and that would be tricky to cope with (for me and the boys)....

Thanks again.