Tiger Temple - Kanchanaburi - Update

[Doza]

dont recall ever saying leave the tiger temple alone

Really?What about this:

If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away,

I do recall saying that I have spoken to the abbot on many occasions

You said much more than that!

we will sort it!!

So you tell people to stay away. You tell them you and your group will sort things out at the temple. You then say its not an organised group but your record of work is well published. Then, after saying that you are going to fix things at the temple you tell us that all you've really been doing is talking to the Abott who doesn't seem to be listening to you. Why would he?

a couple of us have tried suggestions

I'm sure many people have tried suggestions mate. But to tell other people to stay away and you are your group are going to sort things is rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

example undertaking the microchipping and dna fingerprinting of the tigers, to eradicate the interchanging of cubs and maybe tracing where all the new cubs come from

Ummm....why would they do that? They buy and sell the cubs illegally. They perpetuate a scam to people that they are a conservation organisation. You admit they are dealing and trading illegally yet you don't want to critisice them because bad things happen in other countries and you and your group are going to osrt this TT out.

What utter cr*p.

[tw25rw]

UK wildlife group slams Tiger Temple

A British conservation group has called on state wildlife agencies to look into alleged animal abuse and illegal tiger trafficking at a famous temple in Kanchanaburi province. A report by the group Care for the Wild International (CWI) claims the animals at the renowned ''Tiger Temple'' are kept in confined spaces and poorly cared for. The report also raised concerns over the safety of tourists, as they are allowed close contact with the animals. Since the worldwide broadcast of a documentary on the Animal Planet channel around 900 foreign tourists visit the temple on busy days, said the CWI, which made a two-year investigation into alleged wildlife abuse and smuggling. CWI chief executive Barbara Maas said the temple's popularity was based on claims its tigers were rescued from poachers and move freely and peacefully among monks who are actively engaged in conservation activities. "This utopian facade hides a sinister reality of unbridled violence and illegal trafficking of tigers between Thailand and Laos," she said. CWI claimed it has evidence that rather than rescuing orphaned tiger cubs the temple operates as an illegal breeding facility and is involved in the clandestine exchange of tigers with the owner of a tiger farm in Laos. CWI Southeast Asia Director Guna Subramaniam said the group had met with the temple's abbot to discuss the problems but he was reluctant to negotiate and showed no interest in reform. The group called on the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department to confiscate the tigers and transfer them to a sanctuary. The acting Deputy Director-General of the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department, Kamolwat Visetsiri, said the agency seized seven tigers and almost 300 other animals seven years ago, but could not find any guilty party. He said he would inspect the temple after acknowledging the

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/270608_News/27Jun2008_news14.php

More money in the pockets of the CWI fraudsters.

[Galong]

Nothing will ever come of it, except foreigners(me included) arguing on a forum about it. My wife and I own a travel company and our 2 most popular tours are Tiger Temple and Floating Market. That goes for almost every tour agency. Why would you think your ideals from the west would even enter the minds of a large majority of the Thai people, enough for them to make the temple close or bar them from keeping tigers? It just doesn't work that way and will not work that way for years to come, so until then lots of money will be made. As a write this my wife is booking the Tiger Temple for 12 people

Tiger Temple and Damnern Floating Market are the biggest sellers.

And you're proud that you, your wife and your company supports the illegal trade in a endangered species and the abuse of the same animals as well? Nice ethics. You really fit in.

History and tradition validate nothing! Thailand also has a history of child prostitution, slavery, supplying heroine and other issues that the evil West finds appaulling... and illegal. Maybe you should delve into those as well and then tell us all how much more Thai you are than us and how none of us should point out some of the evil things that Thais do.... geez, let's all just stop caring about anything. Maybe that would make you feel better about what you do. Personally, I'd go home if the only way I could make money was to support this type heartless operation. Please, learn a more compassionate trade!

[percy2]

Just so people can improve their "forum" techniques......

Nignoy is coming across as quite reasonable.

Doza , Wilko and Galong are coming across as a bit more on the rabid side.

Changing peoples minds is the best way to change their behaviour, you might want to consider that that is the best way of helping the animals before the next round of postings.

Cheers

[Galong]

Just so people can improve their "forum" techniques......

Nignoy is coming across as quite reasonable.

Doza , Wilko and Galong are coming across as a bit more on the rabid side.

Changing peoples minds is the best way to change their behaviour, you might want to consider that that is the best way of helping the animals before the next round of postings.

Cheers

Sorry mate, I'll get a rabies shot later today.

[Nignoy]

Just so people can improve their "forum" techniques......

Nignoy is coming across as quite reasonable.

Doza , Wilko and Galong are coming across as a bit more on the rabid side.

Changing peoples minds is the best way to change their behaviour, you might want to consider that that is the best way of helping the animals before the next round of postings.

Cheers

Sorry mate, I'll get a rabies shot later today.

Please!! Please can I administer it Nignoy

[Goshawk]

i've been relatively quiet on this, but i have to say now Nignoy, the 'we' stuff is definately coming over as quite laughable..

your elusive group, and 'BBC made documentry made of' that u answered but really shed very little light on, holds very little water..

do you really know anything about the wildlife of Thailand.. what, where & how to see/protect it..?

or are you just a guy (with elusive group) that looks out for 'cockatiels' & the like (not native, if such then not really a Thai subject & should be off this forum) for sale in markets, then films them on some championing mission to win the hearts of the ignorant/gullable masses in order to relieve them of some dosh ?

it's the 'we know it all' and 'leave it to us' impression that i find absolutely hilarious with you.. i suspect you personally know nothing about 'Wild Thailand'... what it is, where it is and how one would go about attempting to protect it... (aside from google/wikipedia searching any given target)

i'll see you u in the field... we'll stake out the endangered Purple Rumped Grassbird, OK na? (Hmm.. now where in Thailand would that be ??)

[CCCP]

Good lord! why is it that some of you guys get off with nit picking other peoples posts all the time.

Anyway I love animals and i can't stand to see any creature abused. WWF is a big con for those who think they are doing good. Research who is the creature, and what other things they are behind.

I'm going back to researching the deliberate descruction of 9-11 to raise a false flag on terrorism, and why the US is so keen to form the Trilateral Union, and why the EU is going to go ahead with the Lisbon treaty despite Irelands no vote. I need to know why these power people are so keen to destroy their own national sovereignty.

Goodbye to USA, Canada and the UK.

I guess most people don't even know that.

Now where did i put my tinfoil hat!

BTW. I personally have visited the Tiger Temple and my decision was influenced by a BBC documentary prior. My ex Thai GF did have reservations at the time saying it was a money making scam (which was odd coming from her) however i personally saw nothing bad at the time, but it did leave me wondering how genuine it was. Doesn't the main monk their now drive a top Merc?

Edited June 28, 2008 by CCCP

[dotcom]

Maybe they are nitpicking because it's a serious issue they feel passionately about.

Yeah. National Geographic shoot a one hour film about TT & then millions want to visit. NG might want to rethink some of this too.

Freak show? Yes. Tiger welfare? unlikely.

[Galong]

Maybe they are nitpicking because it's a serious issue they feel passionately about.

Yeah. National Geographic shoot a one hour film about TT & then millions want to visit. NG might want to rethink some of this too.

Freak show? Yes. Tiger welfare? unlikely.

It's not likely that some animal/nature TV and magazine companies have the time to thoroughly research what they end up promoting. I don't blame them for trying to do what they thought was the right thing, still, it would be nice if they cruised this forum and perhaps Thorntree to get some possible alternative views on any given subject.

National Geographic seems to have come around to a more thorough unveiling before writing as is witnessed by what they said recently about Phuket... click here

A photo of the monk driving or being drive in a "top Merc" would certain be a powerful statement.

[Pierrot]

History and tradition validate nothing! Thailand also has a history of child prostitution, slavery, supplying heroine and other issues that the evil West finds appaulling... and illegal.

Sorry, but you have to give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. The evils you mention date back to the Vietnam war, and the responsable are the American. The Thai are only guilty of doing nothing to stop it.

Regarding the tigers, I have to repeat myself. It seems the "moral" crowd opposes the people who either support the temple or look for a "compromise" with the monks, but they offer no solution. Stop picking on people who have a different opinion from yours and tell us what to do.

If you have a solution, which I honnestly doubt ...

[percy2]

History and tradition validate nothing! Thailand also has a history of child prostitution, slavery, supplying heroine and other issues that the evil West finds appaulling... and illegal.

Sorry, but you have to give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. The evils you mention date back to the Vietnam war, and the responsable are the American. The Thai are only guilty of doing nothing to stop it.

Regarding the tigers, I have to repeat myself. It seems the "moral" crowd opposes the people who either support the temple or look for a "compromise" with the monks, but they offer no solution. Stop picking on people who have a different opinion from yours and tell us what to do.

If you have a solution, which I honnestly doubt ...

Good post.

Cheers

[Nignoy]

i've been relatively quiet on this, but i have to say now Nignoy, the 'we' stuff is definately coming over as quite laughable..

your elusive group, and 'BBC made documentry made of' that u answered but really shed very little light on, holds very little water..

do you really know anything about the wildlife of Thailand.. what, where & how to see/protect it..?

or are you just a guy (with elusive group) that looks out for 'cockatiels' & the like (not native, if such then not really a Thai subject & should be off this forum) for sale in markets, then films them on some championing mission to win the hearts of the ignorant/gullable masses in order to relieve them of some dosh ?

it's the 'we know it all' and 'leave it to us' impression that i find absolutely hilarious with you.. i suspect you personally know nothing about 'Wild Thailand'... what it is, where it is and how one would go about attempting to protect it... (aside from google/wikipedia searching any given target) This will be my last comment on this thread,specially for you goshawk, My first attempts at protecting wildlife in thailand, were in early 1963 when I was stationed in Yasothon province, Amphur Leong Nok Tha, up until mid 1966 , when off duty during these 40 months,I spent my time buying native thai captive animals and birds that were for sale on the streets, and releasing them or hacking them back in to the then unpopulated rain forest and scrub areas between Khemmerat and Mukdaharn .Of course it was wild thailand then and the countryside was alive, I bought, begged, borrowed , civet cats,gibbons, simiangs, squirrels and too many types of small animals to remember,birds of prey, diverse songbirds and owls,many of which are nearly extinct in thailand today,when was the last time you saw pygmy vultures or eagles flying free every day,north of Korat the roads were laterite, no tarmac,in the villages no electricity, no google or wikipedia if it comes to that, and by the way the photo in your Avatar could possibly be one of mine out of our oops sorry my captive breeding program, and in closing Gondwana Rainforest sanctuary in Brisbane, my last job before I retired ,was voted internationally the top facility of its kind in the world, There is a 4 page article on it in the Autumn 1999 edition of Birdkeeper Magazine at that time we had 500 different native species of animals and birds roaming and flying free in an artificial rain forest environment . My track record may have started back in the dark ages, but I was doing my bit to save wildlife in thailand before some people knew where thailand was located Nignoy

i'll see you u in the field... we'll stake out the endangered Purple Rumped Grassbird, OK na? (Hmm.. now where in Thailand would that be ??)

[Goshawk]

"This will be my last comment on this thread,specially for you goshawk, My first attempts at protecting wildlife in thailand, were in early 1963 when I was stationed in Yasothon province, Amphur Leong Nok Tha, up until mid 1966 , when off duty during these 40 months,I spent my time buying native thai captive animals and birds that were for sale on the streets, and releasing them or hacking them back in to the then unpopulated rain forest and scrub areas between Khemmerat and Mukdaharn .Of course it was wild thailand then and the countryside was alive, I bought, begged, borrowed , civet cats,gibbons, simiangs, squirrels and too many types of small animals to remember,birds of prey, diverse songbirds and owls,many of which are nearly extinct in thailand today,when was the last time you saw pygmy vultures or eagles flying free every day,north of Korat the roads were laterite, no tarmac,in the villages no electricity, no google or wikipedia if it comes to that, and by the way the photo in your Avatar could possibly be one of mine out of our oops sorry my captive breeding program, and in closing Gondwana Rainforest sanctuary in Brisbane, my last job before I retired ,was voted internationally the top facility of its kind in the world, There is a 4 page article on it in the Autumn 1999 edition of Birdkeeper Magazine at that time we had 500 different native species of animals and birds roaming and flying free in an artificial rain forest environment . My track record may have started back in the dark ages, but I was doing my bit to save wildlife in thailand before some people knew where thailand was located. Nignoy"

[Pierrot]

I don't know how polls work and if we can add one in the middle of a thread, but it's maybe now time to ask TV members what they think should be done regarding the tiger temple. We have heard both side, time for the verdict.

Can anybody helps ?

[Doza]

Yeah - the Tigers are transfered to an alternative wildlife sanctuary where they are not used for:

a) the financial gain of anyone

b. fun such as petting, holding, playing and taking photographs with (you see allowing photos make people think exotic wildlife is for our (human) enjoyment and to do as we please with...)

c) the centre actively engages in REAL research, REAL education and outreach and REAL conservation initiatives for wildlife in Thailand (conservation is not buying bred tigers illegally and charging people to pet them while claiming its ok because they are building bigger enclosures and the tigers are "healthy" and not abused [all that much]).

d) the centre does not operate as a zoo

e) the centre is recognised by respected and reputable wildlife conservation authorities and agreements and partnerships and is regularly inspected

Something along the lines of the WFFT centre. Funds extracted so far from the Abbot for this con could be used to help finance the whole thing.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Doza

[GuestHouse]

A couple of points being missed by those claiming that no alternative solution is being offered:

Firstly the closure of the Tiger Zoo Temple would in itself be a solution to what is perhaps the primary problem created by the Tiger Zoo Temple - in that its closure would remove the demand for a trade in these endangered animals. It is this trade in Tigers which is causing the real harm to wild Tiger populations.

Secondly, no solution need be offered. Thai laws dictates that the organization responsible for the protection of Tigers is the Forestry Commission - The solution is to hand the tigers to the legally responsible party.

[Payboy]

... we'll stake out the endangered Purple Rumped Grassbird, OK na? (Hmm.. now where in Thailand would that be ??)

have you tried looking in soi nana?

[HelterSkelter]

TRUE! Spoken like a Man(Person?) with a sharp awarness and Big Brass Kahonas!Well Put!

I found the report was concisely written, well documented, and called to light several animal health issues as well as some international issues of trade between countries in tigers, the legality of the Tiger Temple to even be allowed to breed their tigers, and many of the animal management practices.

Unfortunately given this is the glorious "Land 'O Thais", and given the extreme deferential treatment and emphasis the locals put on their buddhist monks; it is unlikely anyone other than 'first worlders' with an interest would even bat an eye at the allegations no matter how well documented.

While I have gone to the Tiger Temple more than 7 or 8 times since living here, it is far from the worst "animal attraction" in this pissant country. I am NOT condoning the actions of the Tiger Temple with that statement only making an observation.

IF you can routinely buy CITES (for the ignorant that is the; Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) Appendices I, II and III at จตุจักร spelled in english as either Chatuchuk, or Jatujak Weekend Market, just how serious is the country in protecting, governing or enforcing the trade in animals?

I would say the "Land 'O Thais" in reality is not that serious at all.

[GuestHouse]

TRUE! Spoken like a Man(Person?) with a sharp awarness and Big Brass Kahonas!Well Put!

I found the report was concisely written, well documented, and called to light several animal health issues as well as some international issues of trade between countries in tigers, the legality of the Tiger Temple to even be allowed to breed their tigers, and many of the animal management practices.

Unfortunately given this is the glorious "Land 'O Thais", and given the extreme deferential treatment and emphasis the locals put on their buddhist monks; it is unlikely anyone other than 'first worlders' with an interest would even bat an eye at the allegations no matter how well documented.

While I have gone to the Tiger Temple more than 7 or 8 times since living here, it is far from the worst "animal attraction" in this pissant country. I am NOT condoning the actions of the Tiger Temple with that statement only making an observation.

IF you can routinely buy CITES (for the ignorant that is the; Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) Appendices I, II and III at จตุจักร spelled in english as either Chatuchuk, or Jatujak Weekend Market, just how serious is the country in protecting, governing or enforcing the trade in animals?

I would say the "Land 'O Thais" in reality is not that serious at all.

Values and behaviour changes, one might argue that the influx of foreigners into the country brings with it a change in values.

Therefore that animal abuse exists in Thailand and has always existed in Thailand is not a reason to allow animal abuse to continue. The criticism of the undoubted abuse at the Tiger Zoo Temple ought rather to be viewed as a positive change in attitudes and one that is deserving of support.

But of course I realize, and I have already stated, there are those who might very well regard moves to stop one form of abuse as a foot in the door to be extended to stopping other forms of abuse. That might not be what some people want to see happen.

Edited June 30, 2008 by GuestHouse

[Galong]

History and tradition validate nothing! Thailand also has a history of child prostitution, slavery, supplying heroine and other issues that the evil West finds appaulling... and illegal.

Sorry, but you have to give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. The evils you mention date back to the Vietnam war, and the responsable are the American. The Thai are only guilty of doing nothing to stop it.

Regarding the tigers, I have to repeat myself. It seems the "moral" crowd opposes the people who either support the temple or look for a "compromise" with the monks, but they offer no solution. Stop picking on people who have a different opinion from yours and tell us what to do.

If you have a solution, which I honnestly doubt ...

I'm not sure if I follow you. I'm no fan of my country's historical record, so slamming the US will only get approval from me. Vietnam and the US's or Thailand's involvement/non-involvement have nothing to do with the point... which is that history and tradition don't justify anything. In other words, just because it's a tradition to keep endangered animals, it doesn't mean it's right or legal.

What do I want? Well, I couldn't say it any better than what Doza said above. Get some real experts in a some real animal behaviorists involved, stop trading illegally in an endangered species, etc... Basically, tigers are an internationally recognized endangered species and they deserve to be protected from exploitation, which is what the temple is apparently doing. Now, if the temple was to invite some REAL authorities and folks who have the credentials to set up a zoo, that would be a big first step in the right direction. Right now, the monks can basically do whatever they wish.

Oh, and Percy2 please tell me that this was a "Good Post"... please, pretty please.

Is this the answer you were expecting?

[Pierrot]

A couple of points being missed by those claiming that no alternative solution is being offered:

Firstly the closure of the Tiger Zoo Temple would in itself be a solution to what is perhaps the primary problem created by the Tiger Zoo Temple

What would then happend to the tigers ?

- in that its closure would remove the demand for a trade in these endangered animals. It is this trade in Tigers which is causing the real harm to wild Tiger populations.

Wishful thinking. Actually IMHO it would only creates more pressure on the remaining wild tigers.

Secondly, no solution need be offered. Thai laws dictates that the organization responsible for the protection of Tigers is the Forestry Commission - The solution is to hand the tigers to the legally responsible party.

An answer to my first question. So have you called the Forestry Commission ? When are they coming to pick up the tigers? But unfortunately, back to my first question, what would they do with them ?

Actually, I was talking about realistic solution.

A realistic solution would be through an agreement with the temple and a regulated trade in tigers and tigers parts.

Then people will have a real interest in the survival of the species and would more readily accept to work with some REAL authorities and folks who have the credentials to set up a zoo, as suggested by Galong.

But then Galong says "Basically, tigers are an internationally recognized endangered species and they deserve to be protected from exploitation" Unfortunately, only their (commercial) exploitation could garranty their survival in the long term.

[wilko]

The temple is not a unique problem...there are other establishments in Thailand that are equally suspect in their activities.......this is a Thai national problem that should be of concern to all Thai people . It affects how Thailand is seen by the rest of the world.

The solution should be provided with both International and Thai funding...the motivators should be the Thai government/authorities. Not just lip-service but a well organised campaign to eliminate the exploitation on animals in this country. The government has to do it, they can get help and advice from appropriate organisations but it is the Thai people who need to instigate this action.

Re-housing the Tigers can be funded by the government and other sources, the Monks themselves can be educated in animal husbandry and involved in the solution.....they need to be made fully aware of the problem they are part of.

Other places need scrutinizing too...the Tiger Zoo at Sri Racha, many of the Elephant "conservation" establishments, crocodile zoos and snake farms are all little more than just circus freak shows and need to be closed down........but so long as undiscerning tourists and un-educated locals think this is OK the money will keep rolling in and the "owners" will not want to kill the "cash-cow".

Edited July 2, 2008 by wilko

[Galong]

Other places need scrutinizing too...the Tiger Zoo at Sri Racha, many of the Elephant "conservation" establishments, crocodile zoos and snake farms are all little more than just circus freak shows and need to be closed down........but so long as undiscerning tourists and un-educated locals think this is OK the money will keep rolling in and the "owners" will not want to kill the "cash-cow".

Unfortunately, the copy-cats are starting already. In Phuket there's a new crocodile and tiger show that's going to open. It's down the road from Robinson's Dept Store. They proudly claim that the tigers come from Sri Racha.

The ticket stalls have prices listed in Thai and Chinese.

[sriracha john]

This is how change can start to occur...

Danish Tour Operator Boycotts Well Known Thai Tourist Attraction

"The Tiger Temple" in Thailand is a major tourist attraction, but the story behind the project are based on lies. The animals are imported to Thailand under the "highly dubious circumstances" – that’s why the biggest Danish tour operator Billetkontoret now boycott tiger temple.

This week, the tour operator was strongly encouraged to stop several visits to "The Tiger Temple" in Kachanburi, close to the River Kwai - northwest of Bangkok. The advice to boycott the attraction came from Billetkontoret's agent in Thailand - the cause was an in-depth report by Care for the Wild International (CWI), which in two years has researched "The Tiger Temple" and followed the daily routines.

The report indicates that the original story of the wild tigers has been raised and domesticated among monks, in fact, covers the illegal import of the animals from Laos under extremely dubious circumstances.

In light of this report, many foreign tour operators and tour operators with immediate effect cancelled all visits to the tiger temple. Billetkontoret follow this boycott as the first Danish tour operator.

"The Tiger Temple was famous, because the Animal Planet made a television programme about it. It looked very reliable and The Tiger Temple was a major attraction - but after the report from the CWI, we must take responsibility as a tour operator. That’s why we have chosen to remove the tiger temple from our program in Thailand," says Billetkontoret's Sales Manager, Kasper Mydtskov.

- ScandAsia / 07-07-08

[Galong]

Well done Billetkontoret! Imagine that... putting ethics before profits. What a unique concept.

Thanks for posting this, John.

[TheDon]

People are just crying over split milk. The place is great, the last time I was there I loved the place. Next time im there im going to give them a big donation to show them what a good job they have done, the people making up all these stories are just haters

[percy2]

Oh, and Percy2 please tell me that this was a "Good Post"... please, pretty please.

Is this the answer you were expecting?

It was a good post because it expressed my views articulately.

I suppose I should ask if you view it as a bad post because it doesn't represent your views.

[wilko]

Percy - who made you God anyway?

you haven't made a single relevant point of view concerning the issues surrounding the temple, just some pedantic judgments on other postings

Edited July 9, 2008 by wilko

[percy2]

Percy - who made you God anyway?

Recognition at last.

Go in Peace