More Evidence Of Gay People Being Born Gay, Maybe, Possibly, Perhaps

[PeaceBlondie]

http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20080616/g...atypical-traits

Our new ThaiVisa administratrix, sbk, has located the above news article. Simon LeVay, the same Ph.D. and brain researcher who made news years ago by finding differences in a certain small portion of the hypothalmus, has announced more research that may add to the possibility that some gay men are "born gay."

The revised Wikipedia article about LeVay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LeVay quotes him as saying, "It’s important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain." He also mentions that his opponents in the ongoing debate have not proven the double negative: they have not shown that men are not born gay.

And now, back to Thailand. Do many or most Thais accept that many gay men are obviously born that way? It seems that they believe that. Many of us older Western gay men, like the characters in Brokeback Mountain, were trained to live as straight in spite of having very strong gay attraction. Many of us could not act as gay until we had deprogrammed ourselves.

The last time we discussed this, one of our members gave us this link of pro- and con- arguments about whether people become gay through nature or nurture. http://www.borngayprocon.org/

[ProThaiExpat]

Of late, I have found interesting literature that suggests, as in stem cell formation of body parts, that during the womb stage, much is determined by hormones excreted by the mother. Some have even shown the level of testosterone during the fetus stage affects sexual issues.

I would not be surprised, without even getting into gene modification, that the future may well provide information as to what the mother can do during pregnancy to affect the sexual orientation of the child in her womb, or certainly affect the balance of genes affecting personality and inclinations.

[Bluelotus]

I'm intrigued by the sociological contributions made by homosexuals to the benefit of the family/tribe. Why after 1000 generations we are still going strong. I believe it has to do with a larger group surviving better and longer if there are contributing males and females who are not competing for the alpha positions.

[Shotime]

Is that what this research is about? Competing for the alpha positions? Legalization of gay marriage? What is the agenda of proving one was born gay? Are all gay people the same?

[toptuan]

Is this why, already at 8 years old, I was looking at men in underwear in the Sears catalogue?

[ProThaiExpat]

Bluelotus: There are many examples of gays contributing to the family unit/tribe. What has that to do with alpha males or females?

The only inference I can draw from your last sentence is that your suggesting gays don't have as many alphas as hetersexulas, and nothing could be farther from the truth than that.

Please explain further what alphas have to do with the contribution of gays to society?

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks for asking that, PTE. Am I an alpha male? Does six kids count? Did I contribute to society (USAF, IRS, church, etc.) before turning gay, and since then? Are only tops alphas? Is a hetero alpha male still alpha if his wife mounts him from above?

[twschw]

Is this why, already at 8 years old, I was looking at men in underwear in the Sears catalogue?

OMG !!!!!! I thought I was the only one who did that

PB, you turned gay? Did you wake up one morning and you had turned gay? I have never had an interest in women so I guess I can't understand how someone can turn gay.

Edited June 25, 2008 by twschw

[whatsoever]

Im not so sure that any one is born gay - but i am sure that in todays world being gay is being promoted as a perfectly acceptable alternative lifes style. The promotion of feminism effectivley immasculates men thus leaving many young men seeking an alternative. Women - through feminsim - reject men which in turn promotes homosexuality.

[twschw]

^Well thank you for that insightful post

[whatsoever]

^Well thank you for that insightful post

'It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows'

[twschw]

[whatsoever]

At the end of the day Thank your stars your father wasnt gay - or your other a feminist from the isle of lesbos

[twschw]

At the end of the day Thank your stars your father wasnt gay - or your other a feminist from the isle of lesbos

Could you rephrase the hi-lighted part of your post? The word "other" makes it a bit confusing. Just so I understand you better. Thank you.

[whatsoever]

At the end of the day Thank your stars your father wasnt gay - or your other a feminist from the isle of lesbos

Could you rephrase the hi-lighted part of your post? The word "other" makes it a bit confusing. Just so I understand you better. Thank you.

Othere should read mother - as you ask politely!

PS i am not in anyway anti gay - i just express my opnion

[twschw]

No where have I said you were anti-gay. No, my mother is not from the Isle of Lesbos. In fact she has never been to Greece though she has travelled extensively. Also, I know many gay men who have children and I don't see the problem. Why should I thank my stars?

[whatsoever]

No where have I said you were anti-gay. No, my mother is not from the Isle of Lesbos. In fact she has never been to Greece though she has travelled extensively. Also, I know many gay men who have children and I don't see the problem. Why should I thank my stars?

Gay men dont usualy mate - so no offspring. Maybe your thinking of bi-sexual. Although i am not anti gay i still consider it fact that being gay is purely a chioce - nobody is born gay!

Thank your stars that being gay in todays world is accepted in some countrys (for the sake of PC) without question or malice.

[PeaceBlondie]

I think there is no definite, empirical evidence that you are born gay, or that you are not born gay/lesbian. We cannot say with certainty.

twschw, I still do not know how to say it. I now believe I was born gay, but had enough hetero conditioning in my youth, that I knowingly denied the obvious, even though I looked at the men in those catalogs and shower rooms. I say I finally became gay in the sense that I finally gave up on straight sex and only did gay sex. And finally coming out of the closet somewhere in the 1990's. By some definitions with which I do not care to argue, that may describe bisexual. However, considering the choices available during the decades (see Brokeback Mountain), I always had very strong gay tendencies. Had I been born with the same genetics in 1984, I suspect I would have never tried the straight stuff.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'll take the complicated road and say that most documentary evidence demonstrates a wide variability in sexuality among men and women from all roads of life, with very few men and women unable to exhibit a wide range of sexual behaviour given the right social settings. There have been societies where *all* men and/or *all* women were supposed to engage in what we would regard as bisexual behaviour at least part of their adult lives, and many more recent societies (unfortunately) which have required at least lip service to heterosexist standards, or failing that, "choose" one or the other (and stick to it!). Without this draconian system of identity "choice," we might find ourselves once again in a very liberated world.

There are probably genetic influences on how far in either direction a person may tend to go, and then the heavy social component comes in. Fortunately because of all the flawed models, the complicated social milieu, and the assumption of the absolute existence of entities which are actually socially constructed, we will probably be free from the dangers surrounding discovery of any genes which really do have an influence on our sexuality for some time to come.

"S"

[cophen]

Is this why, already at 8 years old, I was looking at men in underwear in the Sears catalogue?

At the age of 9 I used to leer at my aunt's lodger, Mister Buckley - him big hansum man

[Bluelotus]

Bluelotus: There are many examples of gays contributing to the family unit/tribe. What has that to do with alpha males or females?

Hackles up

One tribe has one alpha male one alpha female. Within the tribe there are beta male and beta female , possibly the dynamic of alpha and bet lesbian and alpha and beta gay males would would compete amongst themselves , within the larger tribe, for these positons , also positions are relationships such as passive alpha or often sibling alpha not a true alpha but a defered position. I am refering in a much broader sense how homosexuals have contributed to the sucess of our tribes pre homosexual-stigma.

The only inference I can draw from your last sentence is that your suggesting gays don't have as many alphas as hetersexulas, and nothing could be farther from the truth than that.

One tribe one alpha , groups numbers change and the alpha changes but there is only ever one true alpha , like Thailand as an example 65 million people no two have the same status and only one alpha .

Please explain further what alphas have to do with the contribution of gays to society?

Competition within a society for the top rung ,if it goes on for too long, taxes the society , gays not being concerned with being the top breeder will add support to a culture in ways that may otherwise be extreme luxuries or even not exist at all . Some many calories in and only some many ergs out.

Relax have a cosmo

[Bluelotus]

Thanks for asking that, PTE. Am I an alpha male? Does six kids count? Did I contribute to society (USAF, IRS, church, etc.) before turning gay, and since then? Are only tops alphas? Is a hetero alpha male still alpha if his wife mounts him from above?

Are you an alpha male ? I believe in most situations you are and probably are a bit uncomfortable when you feel you aren't. If i'm to assume you were in the Air Force then I must point out the authority intrinsic in wearing a uniform and how this pushes you up the ladder , as an IRS agent you instill fear in the average person another push up the ladder and as a good Church going fellow with a large family you are showing social responsiblity and devotion to the communal Diety all these thing are your effort to be the alpha male ( Remeber I only know about you what you want me to know ) And yet you were willing to deny the truth that you knew about yourself in your post you cll it " turning gay " because of societal pressure that is how important being the alpha is to you . or was rather, but the discussion I'm more interested in is pre gay stigma society what was the social benefits of having gay members in the tribe / family

As for your other questions i can only assume you are joking and i'll try to answer thern in a lighter vein

Are only tops alphas , no alpha get what ever they want tops bottomses and sidesies too

Is a hetro male alpha still alpha if his wife mounts him from above , shades of George Carlin in this question ' He is still alpha if he wants her up there otherwise he is p whipped

To quote Aunt Ida : A Heterosexual lifestyle is sick and boring , John Water's "Female Trouble"

Cosmos for you too

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, so by that description, I guess I have been an alpha, even a closeted, pacifist, gay alpha. I get confused by psycho-babble, such as Type A, over-achiever, passive-aggressive, left brain, etc. No offense taken, and hope you aren't offended by me calling it babble.

I read IJWT's post as suggesting that, given enough chances, almost all humans would express themselves more freely, even bisexually. Thus this debate about "born gay" or "born straight" may get the response, "Whatcha talkin' about, Willis? We are all in the human race, and we are more varied than our society allows us to be."

[ProThaiExpat]

I was thrown off of your meaning in your use of the word "tribe". I think it would have been clearer had you used the work "pack". A very common natural grouping of animals around a pack leader, the dominant or alpha male. Elephants clearly are not so structured as the females and children gather around an "alpha" female and the males are shunned from the the "family".

In the "wild" I think homosexual males may well contribute to the pack by not constantly trying to unseat the pack leader and earn the right to procreate with the females of the pack. Since there are so many animal groupings, I have exhausted my knowledge of what I have learned on the National Geographic Channel.

I submit it is a bit of a stretch to analogize this natural pack model to modern day mankind with all of its complexities.

[Scott]

I don't know if I was 'born' gay or not, but from the earliest I can remember, I enjoyed putting on my mom's makeup, clothes etc. When I was 3 there was a picture of me in a dress, with high heels and my hair in bobby-pins! I can assure you, it wasn't condoned behavior and I was sometimes quite severely punished. My most treasured memories are with my grandmother helping her cook and clean.

I had an uncle who (I suspect may have been gay--absolutely no evidence, just that sneaky feeling), was a bit more tolerant than my father and I spent most of my time on the farm with grandma and my uncle. He wasn't very tolerant of anything that was overtly 'gay', but he was a bit gentler and more understanding in an emotional way. I did have to farm, drive the tractors, bale hay, drive a team of horses, but still couldn't wait to get into the house and help bake bread!

By the time I was a teen--like a lot of teens--I was pretty much turned on by anything that moved. Had a lot of sex with girls (at the time it was OK--and I felt good about doing it), but my strongest attraction was always towards males. And that urge was strong. Very, very strong. I sex with all the males in my class--mostly around G 7 and 8. By grade 9 they were moving much more toward an interest in the opposite sex. I didn't. Tried, but it was never there, really.

I still find the male body to be a most beautiful thing and I find the female body to lumpy and bumpy and much more attractive when dressed in nice clothing, with a bit of jewelry.

Was I born gay? Don't know, but I sure turned the corner going down that road before I could walk!

[Ijustwannateach]

While we are primates, it is important to remember there is more than one social model among primates. The social model of the non-human primate which is probably closest to us- the bonobo chimpanzee- is a matriarchal social group with rampant sexual socialising of all varieties among all members, and no obvious estrus signs (or 'heat') for females. I certainly see that as closer to our proclivities as a species than, say, gorilla society with its alpha males, harem, sex-only-in-season system.

"S"

[Kaojai]

Although i am not anti gay i still consider it fact that being gay is purely a chioce - nobody is born gay!

You can't be serious. Please don't say you're not anti-gay. By saying what you have, you've attempted to reduce my life to some naive, uneducated, frivolous choice.

In so many situations today and even more so when I was young, being gay was literally dangerous. Being gay meant being ostracized. Being gay meant you were never far from thinking about suicide. Being gay meant you were excluded, mocked, talked about behind your back or treated as a joke to your face. It meant in school you were tormented. It meant that you were disowned by your family. It meant, if possible, keeping who you were a secret and living a lie. And much of this began when you were too young to fully realize what it was that set you apart from those who were so intent on making your life hel_l. Do you, in your contempuous dismissal, think anyone would choose that?

Although I now accept who & what I am and (after living most of my life in African , Arab, Muslim countries where being gay or behaving gay was illegal formerly or by custom) I am more comfortable about my life here in Thailand, do you honestly think I would have chosen to be something that made most of my life a misery? I grew up in middle class America and the only measure of success & acceptance began with wife, kids, house in the suburbs, etc. I don't know when I finally accepted that that was never going to happen, but I clung to the hope that somehow I could still attain all that until even I knew it was hopeless.

You might as well say that being tall or being Chinese is purely a choice. You may not be anti-gay in your mind, but in saying something like that you expose your ignornance and prejudices. No one thing has impacted my life as much as being gay and, for the most part it has been a negative impact.

You are the definition of prejudice. You "know" something is true based on nothing more than ia total ignorance of reality.

[ProThaiExpat]

Kaojai: Bravo, well said.

[Scott]

Kaojai said it all, and said it well. I just can't figure out why some of those closet cases lurk around in this forum anyway. I am sure their expertise is needed elsewhere.

[thaicurious]

i remember being gay before age five. i had a crush on an older boy in the neighborhood who would have nothing to do with me. i couldn't believe my luck when mom invited his family into our home for a few nights when their home caught fire. no, i didn't set the fire.

i've never been attracted to females at all. i still look at underwear ads. and if it adds any to the idea of genetics. i've got at least three other gay cousins plus myself in our family, including two lesbians and two gay guys. the two guy guys are butch while the two lesbians are lipstick.

there seem to be two topics on this thread, one of being gay and one of acting gay. i'm not sure they are quite the same. i've met butch & lipstick lesbians and butch and effeminate gays and butch and effeminate str8s for that matter. from my experience, i tend to think that sexuality is born but that behavior & expression is learned.