Accents Of TEFL Teachers

[marshbags]

marshbags, if you are not a professionally trained educator yourself, and you can spot obvious errors in the English teacher's speech and in the test questions and answers, etc., then the problems at that school are probably worse than your nightmares. If you cannot get your family educated in Thailand, say at an international school or a great EP or a great bilingual school, I suggest that you leave Thailand - unless you can afford not only the best and most expensive English tutors, but incredibly overskilled Thai teachers as well (for science, math, history, Thai, etc.). Good luck.

As to Jason Alawi's article. We are well aware of the general problems, but I doubt one human being on Planet Earth is well informed of the requirements to teach in Thailand under the new mandates, most of all the Teachers Council of Thailand. Jason's request sounds reasonable, but not here. Thai politics are not reasonable, and Thai educators seldom listen enough to foreigners to seriously change the culture of many centuries. A Bachelor of Education degree (which is literally not even granted in certain states or countries that supply teachers) is not the sine qua non of professional education. Transcripts can be difficult to acquire, and more difficult to decipher. Does this entry "EDU PHIL EDU USA 3 A" earned at Western Montana University at Missoula mean the same thing as "LIBART Pedagogy 3" earned at Glasgow University-Hebrides? Who at the TCT or the MoE can decrypt these? I doubt there is a standard format for transcripts, and elderly Brits insist that their transcripts never existed.

Jason Alavi's opinion that ajarn.com is a top authority, may be biased by the fact they publish his column. The ajarnforum and our own ThaiVisa Teaching in Thailand Forum are seldom read by the Thai officers who decide public policy. No matter how closely they read us, they do not seem to heed our advice.

But hey, there is one great advantage to the abysmal failure of most Thai schools teaching English. It gives the teachers great after-hours income, teaching real English to those who can pay over 500 baht per hourt,

Thanks for your reply PB and just to give an example of the ways i have had to deal with the lack of communicational skills not only in English, but maths and science.

As a born and bread 64 year old English educated parent, I can take care of my daughters English to a reasonable level that is assisting her with her studies.

Re English

What i find really frustrating is when a teacher contradicts even the most basic things, especially spelling, grammar, and conversational stuff and my daughter gets confused and her confidence in using English is / was effected, along with her self esteem.

Regarding maths and science i hire a private Thai tutors who come to our home every week, they are, i might add, very good and as a result her understanding and knowledge has greatly improved in these subjects.

I do pay fees at one of the local schools of which there are three, hers being the one most locals who,s childrens education was of a high standard, recommended to me, when i made enquiries.

I made a point of visiting several schools before deciding which one was most suitable.

There are two government schools that used to be very good also, but as with many such places the students are now 60 plus to a class ( and still expanding ) and one foreign tutor who teaches at one of them advised me not to enrol her in either of them ( one of his friends teaches at the other and both are comparable in this respect. )

They do not in his words, have enough time to give more support to the majority of their pupils as a consequence they in turn have to seek after school tuition of which in many cases from my observations, are being ripped off as some of the teachers are a little inadequate to say the least.

This does professional teachers no favours at all and undermines their dedication and all the good work they put in and consequently gives an undeserved reputation of being unqualified and unprofessional from many within the educational authorities looking for an excuse to have a go ect. ect.

I empathise totally with many of the things highlighted in various threads on this forum.

From a positive point of view there now seems to be a will to make it more difficult for those who are under qualified to get a teaching post in Udonthani and hopefully we can all benefit in the long term as teachers in your cases and ours as parents.

I also think they should offer those of you who are qualified and demonstrate your competence, a salary more fitting to encourage more foriegn teachers to come to Thailand and most important of all, keep those of you who are, to stay here.

IMHO as always.

marshbags

Edited June 30, 2008 by marshbags

[Tomkagai]

She made a point of telling me ( Nay boasting ) about her 5 years teaching English in India and her students would have no such problems.

Yes in India

When will they learn to appreciate the skills of fully qualified, native English tutors, hire them, and pay the going rate they deserve accordingly.

Nothing wrong with developing your English in India. I have a Thai colleague who got her MA from an Indian university and has an excellent knowledge of English grammar, very good oral skills - and she's a very good teacher too.

Grammatically, Standard Indian English differs little from other standard Englishes, but from what you've said, it seems that she hasn't got close to the standard of any variety of English.

Not meant as a general attack on this, apologies for any indications otherwise picked up by anyone.

I was just exagerating what the teacher made a point in telling me.

We don,t normally see references to standard Indian / English so repeated in case anyone thought i was mis quoting ( U.S.English, Ausie English ect. ect. )

So long as it allows conversation and communication at a reasonable level, it doesn,t matter what type it is.

IMHO as always.

marshbags

Marshbags I actually agree with your original comments.....the ability in a language is not wholly to do with somebodies strengths in grammer or oral skills, just because they are strong in these aspects, doesnt mean they are "good" in the language...its to do with the ability to communicate effectively in that particular language...to be understood and understand....Pretty sure William Shakespear didnt have a degree or higher degree in English...!!!...infact....the reference to "standard" English....there is no such thing...possibly closest would be considered to be the Queens English...I personally would like to see American "English", Aussie "English" and India "English" actually be called American, Australian etc....If you want to learn "proper" English, learn it from a native....not someone who speaks a dialect...ie American, Australian etc....

[Issangeorge]

Tomkahai, I think you are a bit snobbish to think only the English can speak English. Sure there are some Americans, Australians, and even Canadians that have strong accents, but i have yet to meet one that i could not understand, but I have met many Englishmen that i really could not understand. Issangeorge.

[Tomkagai]

Tomkahai, I think you are a bit snobbish to think only the English can speak English. Sure there are some Americans, Australians, and even Canadians that have strong accents, but i have yet to meet one that i could not understand, but I have met many Englishmen that i really could not understand. Issangeorge.

Its not a case of being snobbish, the fact is the countries you mention all speak English dialects, as is the case in the UK, you can travel a distance of 50 miles and can hear 3 different dialects (not all of them I can understand either) of the English language..In America, Austrialia, Canada...it can be the same written words but mean completely different things...

The same anology can be applied to the Thailand language as I understand (my Thai is too poor)....there are different dialects of the Thailand language spoken country wide and have been told only Thai's coming from around the Bangkok area speak "proper" Thai

By virtue that the language is called "English" implies to me that "proper" English is native to England only, hence my comment that proper English would be defined as the Queens English, I add here that I dont speak the Queens English either...this comment is not ment to be snobbish, but you have to think of how the English language came to places like America, Austraila and Canada...the original root language came from the UK or England if you prefer and was brought to those countries under the British Empire and has changed and been adapted to suit local conditions and if therefore different from the original root language..

So therefore an "English" teacher from America or Austraila teaching in Thailand is in fact teaching their version or dialect of the language

[PeaceBlondie]

Ah yes, Tomkaigai: the old (snobbish-sounding) argument that only the Spaniards can speak the King's Spanish (and Spain has some weird dialects, like Catalan), or that Brazilians should all speak Portugese like the Portugese, simply because the name of the language is the same as the people of a certain country. Fallacious argument, IMNSHO. There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. Even the southern "y'all" for the second person plural is understood. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world, not the Queen's and King's stilted English, not the received pronunciation of a tiny portion of southeast England, not the BBC English which can now be heard with various UK accents.

Real English teachers teach while and whilst, among and amongst, bonnet and hood, trunk and boot, pants and trousers, toilet and bathroom, lift and elevator - and hundreds more examples. Intermediate and advanced learners need to learn all the Englishes, not just one. Greengrocer, lawn versus garden, I am going to/I will/I shall.

Yes, grammar should be dealt with gradually, but even beginners need to understand noun/subject/object; adjectives and articles, and at least five standard tenses. Yes, some teachers - especially Thai and Filipino English majors - waste time teaching silly grammar rules that are inconsistent. They do not know how to frame a 22 word sentence, and sometimes they mangle the pronunciation worse than a conversation between a Welsh collier and an Aberdeen fishmonger.

One final paragraph to this rant: we farang are not in charge of English teaching in Thailand. Thais are in charge. And it would appear they might not want Thais really seriously speaking a language that teaches them to think for themselves and ask penetrating questions to prime ministers.

[Tomkagai]

There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world,

And there we have it....So lets call the language you teach American then.....personally I prefer to stick to English/English..."y"all... ...Reinforces my original arguement, that its not English that is being taught, but a dialect of English

FYI

Definition of a dialect

n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group

[midasthailand]

There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world,

And there we have it....So lets call the language you teach American then.....personally I prefer to stick to English/English..."y"all... ...Reinforces my original arguement, that its not English that is being taught, but a dialect of English

FYI

Definition of a dialect

n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group

Now I'm confused! I was born and raised in England (London) emigrated to Australia as a teenager, joined the navy and traveled the world. I lived in the USA for two years and Thailand for three years in the eighties/nineties. What language do I tell people I speak?

At the end of the day English is a language that is evolving, it has long since outgrown it's country of origin and is recognised as the international language of business, transport and to a lesser extent, diplomacy. Y'all stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

[KhaoNiaw]

At the end of the day English is a language that is evolving, it has long since outgrown it's country of origin and is recognised as the international language of business, transport and to a lesser extent, diplomacy. Y'all stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

And around the world, there is a huge amount of interaction in English going on where none of the speakers involved have English as their first language. Successful communication does not depend on one specific form of pronunciation, or even a 'native-like' accent.

[PeaceBlondie]

There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world,

And there we have it....So lets call the language you teach American then.....personally I prefer to stick to English/English..."y"all... ...Reinforces my original arguement, that its not English that is being taught, but a dialect of English

FYI

Definition of a dialect

n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group

If we accept that definition, then RP and BBC and royal English are dialects, peculiar to...what, about ten to fifty million speakers in a kingdom of 94,399 square miles, as compared to North American English, an area of 6,879,000 square miles excluding Quebec, and spoken by more than 300 million? Fine, then let's call the entire language that we all speak North American, eh? And thanks for making bold my comment that North American conquered the world, linguistically.

Where is that ironic, British, tongue in cheek emoticon? I do not really believe British English to be either inferior or superior. I am making no defense of Hillbilly or Cockney. The Brits with whom I have taught English, like the Americans, Canadians, South Africans, Aussies, Kiwis, et al., spoke clearly in the classroom. Most of the Thai English teachers did not. But they had good hearts and made great som tam.

Tom, do all Brits spell and punctuate as flawlessly as North Americans do, in the classroom at least?

[garro]

There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world,

And there we have it....So lets call the language you teach American then.....personally I prefer to stick to English/English..."y"all... ...Reinforces my original arguement, that its not English that is being taught, but a dialect of English

FYI

Definition of a dialect

n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group

I'm sorry, but you seem to have little idea of what the word language means and little idea about the history of your own language. English is a Germanic language which can be traced back to Sanskrit. The term English is a handy term which is used to refer to a language which has many dialects. History means it's called English, but it has never been the property of the English - consider the fact that the people of the current day England probably spoke a type of Gaelic ( similar to Cornish) for far longer than they have spoke English. This language is an import. To say that one dialect of the language is the correct dialect would be just silly.

It is the nature of language to change. Our world changes so our means of communication must keep up. Shakespear's English would be pretty useless in today's world. English has developed in different countries and has needed to develop in different ways. Standard English is one of these dialects which has gained prestige due to its association with the upper strata in Britain. Standard English has nothing to do with accent as it can be spoken by a Scot or a Paddy. The fact that the standard dialect is admired by some does not mean that other dialects are not as equally valid - after all they all came from the same place and have adapted to the challenges they faced.

In regards to Thailand, and I would say most non-English speaking countries, they are keen to learn English due to its association with the United States - sad but true. If English was not spoken in the US it would fall way down the curriculum. I have never met a student who wanted to develop anything but an American accent. If you listen to those who speak English to a high standard in Asia you will find that they will have an American accent.

It is probably understandable that you have developed this sense of ownership over the language. The fact that is called English can lead to confusion but I'm sure if you investigated a little further it might change your opinion - or maybe not.

If you are interested in learning more about your language there are many books such as The Adventure of English by Melvin Bragg.

Edited July 1, 2008 by garro

[cophen]

There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world,

And there we have it....So lets call the language you teach American then.....personally I prefer to stick to English/English..."y"all... ...Reinforces my original arguement, that its not English that is being taught, but a dialect of English

FYI

Definition of a dialect

n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group

So which English English would you teach? The English that's spoken in Cornwall? Bristol? Sunderland? Wolverhampton? Clay Cross? Glasgow? Kirkwall? These are all different Englishes - no less English than RP or Boston English or Cape Town English. There is no English English.

[cophen]

"n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group"

An exact description of both the the Queen's and RP English. So how are they more Englsih than Brummie?

[0Mix1up]

I speak 0mix1up english and soon my dialect will dominate the world, so much so even samak will want lessons from me

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

At my school, we want to expose our students to as many English accents as possible. In their future jobs, they may encounter all different types of accents. As a teacher, if you speak slower, you will reduce your accent.

[Scott]

I find it quite sad when people need to be critical of the 'dialect' spoken by others. At our school we have people from all over, Africa, US, Canada, UK, India, Philippines, all of Europe Japan and China. All are using the medium of English for instruction--yes our Chinese and Japanese teachers uses English to teach Chinese to the Thai students. One of the amazing things about all these different accents is that our students have come to truly be able to understand the language.

Sometimes I cannot understand what a particular teacher said--but if I ask a student, they understand, and that's what's important.

One is better than the other, just different.

I think it's relatively important to have native speakers involved because they know the subtleties of the language, but that's pretty much any native speaker from anywhere. First time I ever heard "sod off", I didn't know what it meant, but I sure got the drift!

[Ijustwannateach]

An inflammatory post has been removed. Carry on!

[mijan24]

One final paragraph to this rant: we farang are not in charge of English teaching in Thailand. Thais are in charge. And it would appear they might not want Thais really seriously speaking a language that teaches them to think for themselves and ask penetrating questions to prime ministers.

Above is a paragraph extracted from a PB post and even though I am hale & hearty and come from The Land Down Under I doff my bonnet to the author (PB) foooooor his words of true (in my eyes) wisdom.

[scyriacus]

QUOTE (PeaceBlondie @ 2008-06-30 15:42:48) ...And it would appear they might not want Thais really seriously speaking a language that teaches them to think for themselves and ask penetrating questions to prime ministers." ....unquote.

some thais may perceive this comment as 'inflammatory' and 'penetrating'.

i wonder, why so-called native speakers always argue about the one and only english and the right accents and words and grammar. living ten (10) years in thailand, i know, that neither is the problem of most thais. they learn (hear?) a lot, but they cannot speak. so please, don't 'teach' them english (whatever that may be?), just make them communicate somehow to non-thais. ESL (english as a second language) is obviously very hard to understand for native speakers, who should only care about the 'advanced' learners, who can communicate already, but want to enhance their language abilities. the problems here are very, very 'basic', maybe too basic for all the sophisticated linguists.

[Jimjim]

There is a standard American pronunciation, which has been common since radio was standardized: the Northern Indiana version. It is not a dialect and barely even an accent, easily understood from Pennsylvania to Florida to San Diego to Portland. It is the standard American language which has conquered the world,

And there we have it....So lets call the language you teach American then.....personally I prefer to stick to English/English..."y"all... ...Reinforces my original arguement, that its not English that is being taught, but a dialect of English

FYI

Definition of a dialect

n. a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group

American English is too close to English English to call it just "American". You can call it a dialect, but it's still English. It's like there's different ways to speak German and Spanish but they're still just dialects of the same language. Insisting to call it "American" is just silly.

[PeaceBlondie]

I will jump back into this hideously important debate, admitting that I am neither an expert in language nor linguini.

The second person plural, in the King's English when James I was the King of England, was you The second person singular was thee. The language of the Southern United States preserves what such British hooligans as Oliver Cromwell's grandchildren discarded. The King James version quoted Jesus as saying the salt had lost his savour because there was no acceptable its for the third person neuter singular. The KJV used pisseth for urinates because it was proper English then, back when suffer meant permit (and suffer still means permit in American labor law).

As for accents, North America has virtually none that fall to the depths of the dialects heard in the British isles.

I may be mistaken, but I have not checked my sources, and am relying on my third rate university education, earned in South Texas.

[Scott]

Wow, this is the most interesting thread on TV!

I am concerned that there aren't too many good threads right now.

At any rate, as a teacher, I try to make sure that our students get a good cross section of accents to listen to. I don't think we live in a world where they are going to get by using English only to speak with or listen to people from one specific area. For God's sake, if they go to Singapore, it certainly won't matter if their teacher was Australian, American, British or Philippino for that matter.

[wangsuda]

The second person plural, in the King's English when James I was the King of England, was you The second person singular was thee.

If I remember by history correctly, it goes something like this:

Way back when (1000-1600 or so) the language of English had a formal and informal set of pronouns (just like Spanish, German, etc). Informal pronouns were I, thee, thine, thou. Formal pronouns were I, you, we, they. In literature, you cold tell the relationship of the speaker to the receiver by the pronouns used (see Shakespeare works for examples). Friends and superiors speaking to inferiors would use I thee, thine, etc. When inferiors spoke to superiors, they used I you, we, etc. (As an aside, when people talk to God in the Bible, they are using the informal pronouns of early modern English). After the Elizabethan era (Charles the ??), the informal pronouns were phased out of English and just the formals remained (which we use today). Boy, I used a lot of parenthesis!

[mizzi39]

I personally agree that "English is English" and students should be exposed to many different dialects. Trainers vs. sneakers, and jumper vs. sweater? Who cares! Now as far as Thailand is concerned, Thais' do prefer an "Americanized English" over "British English" and I am not trying to be one sided and hope that i am not "opening up a can of worms" by saying this, but 9 out of 10 Thais' will tell you that they would rather be taught by an American over any other "native speaker". I just finished training a group of Thai teachers for their 'Teachers Knowledge Test" and all of them stated that it was much easier to understand the 2 American trainers as opposed to the other trainers- 2 Brits. and 1 Kiwi.

[poshthai]

One should speak the Queens english then one would not have a dialect.

[PeaceBlondie]

Which queen -- Elizabeth II, Liz I, or their great-great-great-great-grandmother? The Queen's ancestor who spoke German, or French? What language did Beowulf's king speak?

[Scott]

I think there are plenty of Queens on this thread and most speak English!

[PeaceBlondie]

The second person plural, in the King's English when James I was the King of England, was you The second person singular was thee.

If I remember by history correctly, it goes something like this:

Way back when (1000-1600 or so) the language of English had a formal and informal set of pronouns (just like Spanish, German, etc). Informal pronouns were I, thee, thine, thou. Formal pronouns were I, you, we, they. In literature, you cold tell the relationship of the speaker to the receiver by the pronouns used (see Shakespeare works for examples). Friends and superiors speaking to inferiors would use I thee, thine, etc. When inferiors spoke to superiors, they used I you, we, etc. (As an aside, when people talk to God in the Bible, they are using the informal pronouns of early modern English). After the Elizabethan era (Charles the ??), the informal pronouns were phased out of English and just the formals remained (which we use today). Boy, I used a lot of parenthesis!

We learned different histories of English pronouns. I just checked the King James Version again. You and yours are the only second person plurals, and thee/thy/thine are the only singulars. James came after Liz I, and his version is circa 1612.

Perhaps there are a dozen King's and Queen's Englishes. More likely, it has not determined world-wide English usage for over a century. Being Rhodes Scholars at Oxford may not have changed the accents of Kris Krifstofferson (born and raised in Brownsville, Texas ) or Bill Clinton from Arkansas.

[wangsuda]

You really know how to shoot down a good theory, doncha? -555-

Edited July 8, 2008 by wangsuda

[PeaceBlondie]

You really know how to shoot down a good theory, doncha? -555-

Was it my bachelor's in religion from a third rate South Texas school? Or my Kris Krist. reference?

[Xangsamhua]

Maybe not topic-relevant, but then again, maybe it is.

It came up in a thread on TESL-L regarding location of first and second languages in different parts of the brain.

Cheers

Xangsamhua

<H1 class=story>Woman Aquires New Accent After Stroke</H1>ScienceDaily (July 6, 2008) — A woman in southern Ontario is one of the first cases in Canada of a rare neurological syndrome in which a person starts speaking with a different accent, McMaster University researchers report in the July issue of the Canadian Journal of Neurological Sciences.

The puzzling medical phenomenon known as foreign-accent syndrome (FAS) arises from neurological damage, and results in vocal distortions that typically sound like the speaker has a new, "foreign" accent.This particular case, however, is even more unusual because the English-speaking woman did not acquire an accent that sounds foreign but one that instead sounds like Maritime Canadian English.

The woman, referred to here as Rosemary, was recovering from a stroke two years ago, when her family noticed a change in her speech. They asked medical personnel at the Integrated Stroke Unit of Hamilton General Hospital why their mother was suddenly speaking with what sounded like a Newfoundland accent. It was at that point that the medical team joined forces with researchers in McMaster's Cognitive Science of Language program to study the case.

"It is a fascinating case because this woman has never visited the Maritimes, nor has she been exposed to anyone with an East Coast accent," says one of the study's authors, Alexandre Sévigny, associate professor of cognitive science in the Department of Communication Studies & Multimedia at McMaster University. "Her family lineage is Irish and Danish, and neither of her parents ever lived anywhere but in southern Ontario."

Karin Humphreys, the principal investigator in the study, and an assistant professor in McMaster's Department of Psychology, Neuroscience & Behaviour at McMaster University, says that while the new accent was apparent to the woman's family the woman could not detect the changes herself. Despite intensive speech therapy the new accent persists, even two years later.

"Rosemary's speech is perfectly clear, unlike most stroke victims who have damage to speech-motor areas of the brain," says Humphreys. "You wouldn't guess that the speech changes are the result of a stroke. Most people meeting her for the first time assume she is from out East. What we are seeing in this case is a change in some of the very precise mechanisms of speech-motor planning in the brain's circuitry."

Sévigny says Rosemary's speech after the stroke became slow, and included changes in phonological segments (using "dat" for "that", and "tink" for "think") as well as the opening of some vowels and diphthongs ("greasy" was pronounced "gracey", and "dog" was pronounced to rhyme with "rogue".)

Humphreys says the research makes her wonder whether FAS might be under-reported because doctors rely on family members to alert them to speech changes post-stroke.

Funding for the study was provided in part by a grant from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council.